• All Purchases made this month instantly go into the draw to win a USD $ 100.00 credit to your HoP account.
 

Forums > Technical Discussion > Fuel Mixes-For serious performers

Login/Join to Participate
Page: 123
darkpoet
BRONZE Member since May 2003

darkpoet

Irish
Location: Dallas.........ish

Total posts: 525
Posted:ok people
heres the deal
ive been working on fuel mixes for various properties-behaviors of the flame on the wick
heres what ive come up w\and it would be greatly appreaciated if you would post your mixes so that way i could find something better
all these burns have been on 4inch tubecore
monkyfists are better!

Citronella Oil (very smelly and smokey)
some people are allergic to citronella
about 7 min slow light

white gas (no smoke faint smell)
3 min EXPLOSIVE light

citronella to white gas
3:1 ratio (very sooty and smells to high heaven)
about a 6-10min burn (very quick light)

Ultra Pure lamp oil
5 min (slow-med light)

ultra pure to white gas 3:1
4 min hardly any smell or smoke (very quick light)

Multi Colored fire!!
OK this looks and sounds cool but I DO NOT RECOMMEND IT!!! and people...dont try to blow w\this stuff...unless you want to DIE
no movement-standard yellow
spinning-green
isolation\stop\direction change-cloud of scarlet
laquer thinner-acetone-paint thinner- mineral spirits-1tbsp boric (ish)
4:2:2:1
hardly any smoke very very odd smell |DO NOT DO BUZZSAWS DURING OR AFTER A BURN YOU WILL GET A VERY HEAVY WIFF OF THE FUEL AND GET RATHER SICK!|
burn time : 4 min -ish it seems to be different every time i light em up

thats it for now ill keep you updated
People please respond w\mix ratios!!
i might be able to come up w\ a 15min burn or better!!

[ 12. November 2003, 07:59: Message edited by: darkpoet ]


Jesus saves sinners and redeems them for cash and
prizes

Co-Founder of Keepers of Light

Educate yourself about the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

Delete Topic

Insanity


member
Location: Dartmouth, Nova Scotia

Total posts: 22
Posted:Hmm.. well Insanity is definatly not a feul expert... but I definatly like that last combo, I think I might try that some time when I start fire. I also think it'll be neat to see other combos from people, see what other spiffy ideas we can come up with.

heh, i said spiffy, yeeeeyyy that's just... Just... JUST SPIFFORIFIC!!!


A feeling that sears my soul,One that burns my mindIt grips my heartAnd breaks my bodyNot madnessOr fearBut one of warmthFor my essenceHas been preservedWithin the golden sanctionOf your heartInsanityDarkness Embrace

Delete

Cody
SILVER Member since Sep 2003

Cody

That guy from Reno
Location: Reno, Nevada USA

Total posts: 556
Posted:I used to use the lamp oil/white gass 3:1 mix, but I noticed the wicks constanly shed the lamp oil. I think the two fuels repelled each other. Has anyone else noticed this? I prefer to use plain white gass on very large wicks. I get about a 4 min burn time with no smoke.

Cody Canon
Controlled Burn, Reno Nevada

Delete

squarefish
SILVER Member since Sep 2002

(...trusty steed of the rodeo midget...)
Location: the state of flux

Total posts: 403
Posted:Darkpoet,
how in the world did you come up with such a brew as that(4:2:2:1)?

Have you been mixing things up like crazy and seeing what the result was, or did someone give you a tip-off?
(And I thought that I was a research nut....)


Delete

darkpoet
BRONZE Member since May 2003

darkpoet

Irish
Location: Dallas.........ish

Total posts: 525
Posted:for the last one....i needed a polar solvent since boric acid is polar
which means i cant use any petroleum distilate because guess what, none of them are polar
and its what i had available
for the lamp oil problem...this does come up but they dont repel each other
what happens is that the oil just drips
when your spinnin centripital (sp?) force drives the fuel out of the wick, so of course its gonna drip off, that and its hot so its thinner and doesnt stay on as well, but its not as explosive as gas so there really isnt any issue of it burning on whatever it hits, but take safety measures anyways


Jesus saves sinners and redeems them for cash and
prizes

Co-Founder of Keepers of Light

Educate yourself about the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

Delete

arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2363
Posted:uhhh... you know, i'd do a search on this, cause i use lamp oil/ coleman's 3:1 inside and straight lamp oil outside. so i don't know for sure, but i 'm fairly certain that quote: laquer thinner-acetone-paint thinner- mineral spirits
well each and every one of these is pretty toxic, especially in the METHANOL flavor. noone i know that has really researched fuels uses any of these. getting methanol on your mucous membranes is just a big no no. i think there's a reason that you feel weird about doing buzzsaws using that mix, because you are just getting a straight dose of what is otherwise just mixed in with a bit of air. exercising in a toxic environment is clinnicaly insane
i can get a 12 minute burn with lamp oil and big old school style hybrid wicks. so why take the risk?


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

Delete

darkpoet
BRONZE Member since May 2003

darkpoet

Irish
Location: Dallas.........ish

Total posts: 525
Posted:which one has methanol in it....?
laquer thinner and paint thinner are the same thing btw w\ some slightly different additives, but those fumes im getting arent methanol, meth is used for bio diesal
you mix meth and corn starch if i remember right
also you might be thinking more towards a different chemical, because methanol is a type of alchohol not a petrol (petrols damage membranes)
if i remember right its ethyl alcohol (ethanol) that is in your booze and methanol which makes you go blind but thats only if its ingested
theres also denatured alchohol also only poisons you if ingested, use it for cooking outdoors
so how would it be that methanol attacks your mucous (sp?) membranes??
because ive suffered no ill effects from the mix, besides gettint high off the fumes if i do a buzzsaw, i didnt want to put you can get high originally because i figured some idiot would do it, huffing is a baaaad thing
so i wouldnt recommend using this fuel in more than a few burns a night (one night per week -ish)
but im working on it, and some new mixes using monkyfists as my wicks since 4inch tubecore just suck


Jesus saves sinners and redeems them for cash and
prizes

Co-Founder of Keepers of Light

Educate yourself about the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

Delete

Phellan


member
Location: Kamloops, BC

Total posts: 74
Posted:After reading this thread I've enlisted the help of my Chem proffessors who actually seem rather thrilled with the idea of coming up with something.

I'll get back to this in a few days (or weeks depending on testing ) but the prof's at my university seem fairly interested in seeing what they can do . . .(always good to have people who love to watch firespinning in the Faculty of Science!)


Delete

darkpoet
BRONZE Member since May 2003

darkpoet

Irish
Location: Dallas.........ish

Total posts: 525
Posted:come on....need more information!!!! grrrrr arg!!

Jesus saves sinners and redeems them for cash and
prizes

Co-Founder of Keepers of Light

Educate yourself about the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

Delete

Big Andy
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

member
Location: Dallas, Tx

Total posts: 186
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Phellan:
After reading this thread I've enlisted the help of my Chem proffessors who actually seem rather thrilled with the idea of coming up with something.

I'll get back to this in a few days (or weeks depending on testing ) but the prof's at my university seem fairly interested in seeing what they can do . . .(always good to have people who love to watch firespinning in the Faculty of Science!) Hey, that sounds promising!! People who actually are educated about chemicals getting involved!! I'm all for it.


"We can't stop here! This is bat country!"

"Welcome to the U-S-A,
We'll treat you right, unless you're black or gay, or Cherokeeeeee!!"

-Brian Griffin from "Family Guy" (the dog)

Delete

Phellan


member
Location: Kamloops, BC

Total posts: 74
Posted:One of the issues with all of this is that methenol and ethanol have very low boiling points, so they don't make very good fuels--they won't last long at all.


laquer thinner-acetone-paint thinner- mineral spirits-

Darkpoet's combo here is interesting. . . the acetone is probably one of the things that gives to the lighheadedness. . .anyone ever get a dose of too much nailpolish remover? Again a really low boiling point . . .

One of the Prof's is suggesting that if we want to keep with kerosene that one solution is to find a miscible polar product to help dissolve the metal, easier said than done, but with a CRC and some more technical know how it shouldn't take too long. I think I'll talk to them more about it tomorrow..


Delete

arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2363
Posted:i've talked with some chem people too. this was a while ago, trying to come up with a really good fuel formula. you want to use as much of the bigger haevy molecules (paraffin, kero, etc.) and mix them with something lighter that will burn them off more (hexane, ethyl, etc)it's been a while but if you need another brain to shoot off of then keep us updated.

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

Delete

darkpoet
BRONZE Member since May 2003

darkpoet

Irish
Location: Dallas.........ish

Total posts: 525
Posted:ok......so then you want a lighter chem...and when you disolve the metal chlorides the metals stay on your wicks and dont come off
so once you dip them in whatever your using...you get a PERMANANT color...well...mostly permanant
but i see what your saying about the low boiling point, thats why i made the mix that i did, the acetone is slightly polar, and its miscible w\the other chemicals in the mix
thats why it works
i try to stay away from toluene but if i remember right the thinner has it......i was wondering if MethlEthylKetone (MEK) mixed w\oil and some sort of petrol solvent would work
just a thought but i dunno...im runnin out of chemicals!!!!!


Jesus saves sinners and redeems them for cash and
prizes

Co-Founder of Keepers of Light

Educate yourself about the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

Delete

arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2363
Posted:oh the thing i was saying about mucous membranes is that your body will absorb the "meth" and other poisonous stuff readily through your lips, mouth, lungs, etc. and i think even your skin. so you wouldn't want any slinging onto you. i just realized that you are trying to work just on dissolving the metals for colored flame. for boric we don't use a mix, we use denatured but only for non slinging toys as it is icky. for the slingers we just don't use colored flames. i mean, we are talking career dancing here, right? several nights a week for many years? weekend warriors can do a little poison and not worry. but try to get health insurance that will cover you after they hear that you are working with toxic chemicals on your skin. i hope we can find a solution here, cause this has been something i've wanted to solve for many years. DUUUUH why didn't i just start a thread here?

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

Delete

darkpoet
BRONZE Member since May 2003

darkpoet

Irish
Location: Dallas.........ish

Total posts: 525
Posted:boric acid is polar which means it needs a polar solvent
this has a double purpose, the metal chlorides that turn your flame different colors are also polar, so what can dissolve boric and make a really nice green flame should also be able to dissolve the metals into a solution, hence looking for a polar solvent
good example of a polar solvent is water, cept water doesnt burn (der) so were trying to figure out the best solvents to use that are miscible w\standard fuels.....and i still dont think methanol is in any of the chem. i listed above..methinks ill check when i get home..i know one of them has toluene in it tho...i i think..
anyways...im still workin on it when i figure something out ill most def. post it up here
and to all you chemistry buffs gimme some ideas..im runnin kinda low from lack of chemicals, texts, and proper testing environment


Jesus saves sinners and redeems them for cash and
prizes

Co-Founder of Keepers of Light

Educate yourself about the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

Delete

SlingingFire
SILVER Member since Oct 2003

member
Location: Houston Texas

Total posts: 10
Posted:Good Data! Since a mix of citronella and camp fuel was mentioned in 3:1 ratio I wanted to say this is better in the 1:1 ratio. The camp fuel is stabilized by the oil so when spun wet it will not as easly sling fire but slimy oil instead. A little bit messy and not for indoors due to the fumes. Outdoors it helps to repel flying varmints like mosquitoes and is not a bad choice where a flaming droplet is risky. Much less smoky too at 1:1. It is a good cheap fuel for general outdoor purpose though. For indoors (bad idea to begin with) use alcohol or similar for short burn time, low to no fumes and no messy slippery floor.

Fire to have, to play with and to eat

Delete

darkpoet
BRONZE Member since May 2003

darkpoet

Irish
Location: Dallas.........ish

Total posts: 525
Posted:but wouldnt that create a risk for a fuel container ignite??
dunno if you know this but the vapor trail for white gas...in the right conditions the fire from your wicks even if your 30ft away..it can trace the vapor straight to your fuel...similar to ether in a vapor form
AND it would also cut down on your burn time rather heavily


Jesus saves sinners and redeems them for cash and
prizes

Co-Founder of Keepers of Light

Educate yourself about the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

Delete

dark(ART)


member
Location: Berkeley, CA

Total posts: 7
Posted:Brief question. I've grown lazy and accustomed to dunking my fireheads into my fuel of choice. Darkpoet's got great data compiled for the burntimes and intensity of different fuels, but can you say anything about which fuels it would not be OK to dunk your heads in.

All the world's ailments can be solved with an adequate distribution of condoms and liberal application of 5000lb epoxy.

Delete

Phellan


member
Location: Kamloops, BC

Total posts: 74
Posted:Didn't someone have a bad encounter with someone puting their wicks into Lighter Fluid or something crazy like that?

It's a good idea though to see if we can make a list of appropriate and inappropriate fuels.


Delete

darkpoet
BRONZE Member since May 2003

darkpoet

Irish
Location: Dallas.........ish

Total posts: 525
Posted:ok........just think for min....theres a few easy ways to completely avoid this...
put your wicks out w\a DAMP not wet towel, and the lower the vapor point of your fuel, the higher the chance of a fuel ignite
also keep spinning for a bit even after your wicks go out, this way the air will cool them off
and finally PAY ATTENTION TO YOUR FUEL!! if there is any steam or smoke when you put your wicks in take them and dip them in and out, or just wait a few seconds and try again....

the fuels to be EXTREMELY WARY of are:

White gas\gasoline\acetone\most alchohols (includes methanol and ethanol)\things that have a solvent type smell mostly....
just trust your instincts and keep your fuel covered tightly, and away from open flame
use your head dont pull a gavin....(gavin being me) and do something stupid w\fire!!


Jesus saves sinners and redeems them for cash and
prizes

Co-Founder of Keepers of Light

Educate yourself about the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

Delete

AutumnLyfe


member
Location: From Florida but now in Namibi...

Total posts: 44
Posted:DarkPoet,
I am so happy I came looking on this end of the posts, I have been trying to get more info on what you have just posted. Never wanted to ask the questions myself in fear of the fact that people here can sometimes make you feel so stupid! I will try your formulas and see how that works. I have really been trying to get a different color out of the fire but it fails me every time. I am living in Africa now and can't get half the chemicals I need. I tried the copper sulfate and it failed misserably! It was in powder form so I imagine that has to be the problem. Thanks for the info I look forward to trying it out.
Autumn


There are no ordinary moments.

Delete

[Nx?]
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

[Nx?]

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both

Total posts: 3749
Posted:Really, all serious performerrs use pure kerro, its safe, its not very hot, its bright, its cheap. It dosnt vaporise unless heated, you can dunk smouldering wicks into it, hell, you can put ciggrettes out in it.

coloured flames are for pyros, not performers.

T


This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti

Delete

Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:So, as a mod I am in limbo here.

See, there is an issue, and there have been complaints made about the inclusion of that last combo in this thread.
Fact of the matter is, it is really unsafe. Anyone who has done any amount of research into fuels will tell you this. People who know chemistry know this. And my friend who is a Fire Investigator told me that the fumes from a mix like this make the hazmat teams work extra hours, and they don't like that.

In other words, it is unsafe.
Now, I sent a PM for that info to be added to the original post.
My next instinct was to just shut this down, especially after the response of "I gotta try this!". No, really, you don't.
Then in reading through this I am really impressed with how many people have gone to seek other information on this. How many have gone to Chem Professors and are doing research, which as everyone knows I am all for.

That particular portion of the post serves as one of those lessons where descretion really does need to be used on these boards.
The chemicals are dangerous not only upon ingestion but upon inhalation as well, and if they have contact with the skin. Like Arashi stated so well, and many times, it is not worth the risk to your health or to that of your audience...
The topic of the thread addresses this to serious performers, and any serious performer will put their audience first, which means they wouldn't endanger them (especially indoors) by using such a combination.

Now, onto another question that I believe arashi sort-of asked about (please correct me if I am wrong my friend), but how do you blend white gas and kero or lamp oil? They are very much like oil and water and do not mix. In fact the oil makes those lovely little bubble effects in the white gas like in a salad dressing. In the past I have found that blends like this are inconsistent and mostly ineffective because the fuels seperate and you do not end up with a good soaking of both but more of one or the other, depending how deeply you dip.
A more effective way to do this I have found is to do an intial soak in lamp oil/kero with an after soak in white gas. This gives the benefit of the quick light and the burn time of the oil.

I also need to add that findings such as this are not always consistent. Altitude and temperature seriously effect burn times and need to be taken into concideration, especially when talking oils. Most fuels ignite much quicker if the weather is warmer and they are warm in advance. Cold fuel also takes longer to light.

Regards.


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

Delete

darkpoet
BRONZE Member since May 2003

darkpoet

Irish
Location: Dallas.........ish

Total posts: 525
Posted:personally i havnt used any aviation grade kero because i cant find it anywhere around here.....and the white gas is colemans camp fuel, when mixed w\the ultra pure i havnt had any problems w\separation, it might just be the ratio and i mix it in smaller amounts...ill double check my numbers i might have put up an innacurate ratio...
but as another thing......my personal reccomendation..is to not spin indoors...but thats just me.....


Jesus saves sinners and redeems them for cash and
prizes

Co-Founder of Keepers of Light

Educate yourself about the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

Delete

Phellan


member
Location: Kamloops, BC

Total posts: 74
Posted:Nx Well I'm a pyro soooo lol

Do I get to have it on both counts?

I've compiled a list of chemical compounds that could potentially be used to create coloured flames, drawn from several sites. I'm going to have my Prof's look at seeing if we can find a polar solvent (not necessarily volatile though) that could be mixed with Kero to create a coloured Kerosene mixture.


Delete

Big Andy
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

member
Location: Dallas, Tx

Total posts: 186
Posted:I actually have yet to try Kerosene. I use Ultra Pure whenever possible, but if I can't afford it, I get white gas.

I've noticed that I can't do wraps with Coleman's. It's just too damn hot! I have a nice ring/wick shaped scar on my left wrist from learning this the hard way. Maybe I'm just a weanie, because I haven't noticed any discussion of not doing wraps with faster fuels. I can do wraps all day long with lamp oil. May singe the hair a tad, but no burns on the skin.


"We can't stop here! This is bat country!"

"Welcome to the U-S-A,
We'll treat you right, unless you're black or gay, or Cherokeeeeee!!"

-Brian Griffin from "Family Guy" (the dog)

Delete

MillenniuM
GOLD Member since Jul 2003

MillenniuM

Hyperloops suck


Total posts: 595
Posted:I spin with White Gas, and I have burns all up and down my arms... scars of the art, I suppose. I definitely noticed that I never burned myself with Lamp Oil and when I switched to White Gas, and was constantly burning myself... you eventually just get used to the pain and used to the burns. I recommend doing wraps and what not at the middle - end of your routine rather than beginning, it cools down significantly.

Delete

darkpoet
BRONZE Member since May 2003

darkpoet

Irish
Location: Dallas.........ish

Total posts: 525
Posted:ok.......personally......id say use the mix...or do a full soak in lamp oil then just dip into white gas as a starter
this way you can be smarter, and get less burns


Jesus saves sinners and redeems them for cash and
prizes

Co-Founder of Keepers of Light

Educate yourself about the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

Delete

Dentrassi
GOLD Member since Apr 2003

Dentrassi

ZORT!
Location: Brisbane

Total posts: 3044
Posted:ok, another area to investigate maybe supramolecular chemistry [inorganic/organic cross] its been over a year since i studied this, so im a bit rusty....

they are large cyclic molecules [macrocycles], carbon based, but with repetative functional groups.
the most basic is crown ethers - imagine a big cycle 15 atoms big, with 1 O, then two C, then one O, etc around the cycle. with the way the bonbs form the oxygens are closer to the centre that the carbons on the outside.

the result of this is with slightly more complex macro cycles, you can have a non-polar outside ring that dissolves in kero, and a polar inside area that could hold a colour-burning metal ion [sort of like miscelles with the polar/non-polar centre/outside].

ive left the chem department, but ill make a few calls and see what i can find out. could you guys make some queries at your respective chem department? cheers.


"Here kitty kitty...." - Schroedinger.

Delete

darkpoet
BRONZE Member since May 2003

darkpoet

Irish
Location: Dallas.........ish

Total posts: 525
Posted:wow.....thats actually a really good idea.....but....how many of those molecules would be in off the shelf flammable chemicals??

Jesus saves sinners and redeems them for cash and
prizes

Co-Founder of Keepers of Light

Educate yourself about the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

Delete

[Nx?]
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

[Nx?]

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both

Total posts: 3749
Posted:humm, i meant pyrotechnician, not pyromaniac.



This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti

Delete

Page: 123