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master sodium


member
Location: carson city, nevada

Total posts: 536
Posted:ok, so last night at my fire group me and some other got into a fuel discussion. everyone except me was saying that kerosene and parrafin were completely different fuels. from everything I've read, in their purest form, they are the same and it was just different words from different regions (kero here and parrafin in uk). so before I try to get all high and mighty like I know everything, I want to make sure I actually know what I'm talking about, rather then make a tremendous ass outta myself (I kinda have a tendency to do that). so are they the same, or are they different?

you can't have a war against terrorism because war IS terrorism.it's not about worshipping fire. its about making the fire want to worship you.

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:*Sigh*... trudges off to find the post that explained it all...

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:Here it is...

Sorry it took me a while, they moved it a few times...


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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:I find that to not be completely true, or thorough NYC. While it has alot of merit, there were some things about it.
What of things such as Shelsol T and the like?
ANd from my dealing with my NZ turned English friends, paraffin is more akin to lamp oil here in the US, which is slightly different than Kero
(more purified, different process, etc).

Also, some of the terms for the fuels were not relating to the fuel at all but were brand names (especially surrounding the white gas).

I think of fuel in terms of biological names, where you have the family..genus..species..etc....

Fuel is similar.

There is the alcohol family.
In there you have methyl and ethyl alcohols.
In those subdivisions you have things like varying grade/make/year alcohols and moonshines ( ) which effect potency. You also have the divisions such as rubbing (isopropyl) alcohol, grades of denatured alcohol, etc.

You have your Kero family.
In there you have obviously Kerosene, Lamp Oils, Jet Fuel. Each of different grades and purities.

Then you have your "Gasses"..which are really the most controversial and wide spread group.
In here you have you standard leaded and unleaded.
Then you have those things concidered "Gas" but not really. Naphtha, I've seen people put Butane in here (which I don't agree with but..hey...)

Then there is the assorted fats and oils that are used now...Biodiesel, veggie, nut, lard...(isn't it amazing what people experiment with?).

I understand that the sheet was all about international names but in the sake of the arguement that was had yes they Kero and "Parafin" here in the US are *slightly* different, mainly pertaining to smoke, smell and taste where we are concerned. They are not, however, out of touch with each other in the relationary process.

Did that make sense?


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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master sodium


member
Location: carson city, nevada

Total posts: 536
Posted:thank you NYC for doing the search. I tried and just found to much regarding fuel that was useless to me so I gave up.

you can't have a war against terrorism because war IS terrorism.it's not about worshipping fire. its about making the fire want to worship you.

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:I think for all intention purposes kero would be similar to paraffin. Although, I know there are at least two types of kero: power and lighting.

The thing that gets me though, is when I think of paraffin, I think of a viscous mineral oil (probably more of a wax).

Pele, I have found the fuel FAQ to be a good guide. I think the reason that solvents like shelsol etc are not included, is because it’s a FAQ for camping stove fuels. They try to cover difference b/t countries (more purified, different process) by having fuels split up by columns.

Lamp oils. From what I can gather most lamp oils are basically kero. And, when people talk about spinning with citronella oil, I think they usually mean the stuff you buy in a supermarket which is approx. 95% kero and 5% citronella oil. Then there is that “pure lamp” oil, which is claimed to be low toxicity. Kero without any additives, I don’t know.

I know people are canned for using petro, but I don’t see a lot of difference b/t ULP and white gas (shelite).


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:True Pele... I learned that lesson when I was in France. The fuel sure as heck didn't burn the same... It is mixtures of molecules in different proportions but approximately the same..

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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:Stone, the link isn't a fuel FAQ. It is a breakdown of international names for the same fuels so that when people travel they know the closest correlation to what they use, though as NYC pointed out, they are not the same. It has some information but there are far more complete fuel Faq's (including MSDS) out there and as I said there were things on this one I did not necessarily agree with.

My friend Jo (not Derry) said that lamp oil and paraffin are about the same. Lamp oil, for the most part is a more cleaned up form of kerosene...to put it ***very*** basically. And, btw, paraffin wax, is a hard chemical derrivitive of all this. The lamp oil is not liquid wax (I enjoy that theory though. I make candles so I know this is not so.)
At it's core, from my research and discussion with fuel folk, you could say that at the conception, they are the same fuel, that just changed as they got older!
Is that understandable? I think I confused myself.

[ 22 June 2002, 01:06: Message edited by: Pele ]


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Pele, if you are saying that kero can go stale, then that makes a lot of sense.

I've always known that petrol will go off, if left for too long in a drum, but hadn't considered other fuels going off. Makes sense though.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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master sodium


member
Location: carson city, nevada

Total posts: 536
Posted:ok, it seems I didn't write my question well enough.

what I want to know is:

if I were to be able to find 100% pure parrafin and 100% pure kerosene, would they be the same chemically?


you can't have a war against terrorism because war IS terrorism.it's not about worshipping fire. its about making the fire want to worship you.

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:I think I understand your confusion...

Since these fuels are merely mixtures of a large number of actual chemicals there could be a difference among parrafin mixtures within the same country.

I think it'd be safe to say that paraffin and kerosine are the same, as stated on the link.


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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:Then again I found this information on the MSDS site... So it appears that kerosine has parrafins in it... hrmmm... I'll have to research that. It could be one of those things where the British call kerosine "paraffin" because it used to be only parrafin but now it's a mixture...

MSDS Safety Information
Product ID: SHELL KEROSINE
Ingredients
COMPLEX MIXTURE OF HYDROCARBONS CONSISTING OF PARAFFINS, CYCLOPARAFFINS,
AROMATIC AND OLEFINIC HYDROCARBONS WITH CARBON NUMBERS IN THE C8 TO C16 RANGE


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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:OK... my final post for the evening...

After looking through my chemistry reference books it seems that in the US TECHNICALLY:

Paraffin is a mixture of solid hydrocarbons and Kerosine is a different mixture of liquid hydrocarbons... which can have a wide range of ingredients. So lots of different mixtures could be considered Kero as long as they have the same general mixture. Kinda like tomato soup, you and I could make it with slightly different ingredients and it'd still be tomato soup.

Since hydrocarbons are made by distilling crude oil it's really just a series of hydrocarbons that evaporate at aproximately the same temperature.

So STRICTLY and in the US, kerosine and paraffin are different soups. That's not to say that those over in the UK call our kerosine soup "parrafin".

And with that, I am hanging up my chemistry coat until september, getting in bed, then flying out to see Cassandra for the summer.

GOODNIGHT!


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