Forums > Technical Discussion > Vegetable oils and fire breathing

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Tracered
member
Location: Salem, Oregon USA
Member Since: 13th Mar 2002
Total posts: 71
Posted:Ok, so I tried to get this answered in an earlier post, but nobody seemed to actually read my entire post in order to find out what my question was. Instead everyone jumped to conclusions and gave me a lot of wonderful info that I already had. Here we go:

1. Will vegetable oil work as the fuel for firebreathing?

2. If I blow a mouthfull of vegetable oil (ie: olive oil, corn oil, peanut oil, palm oil) at a flaming torch, will it burn well at all, and will I be at any more risk for blowback?

thanks


An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind - Mahatma Gandhi

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arashi
arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx
Member Since: 21st Mar 2002
Total posts: 2363
Posted:no, and no

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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DJ Dantana
veteran
Location: Stillwater, Ok. USA
Member Since: 15th Aug 2001
Total posts: 1495
Posted:sorry arashi...you are very wrong about it not working!

I used vegetable oil last night for some fire breathing, and my flames where just as big as the other people who were using unheathy fuels (like kerosine and lamp oil)

I was using soybean oil, but almost any cooking oil will work

there is a secreat however, in order to get the best flame. keep the oil in a large thermos with HOT water in it. You see, where vegetable oil is cold you have to be perfect to get a good flame, but when you get it real warm, it is thinner and will produce an impresive flame. (just don't keep it hot enough to burn your mouth )

I think the chance of a blow back is a LOT less that other fuels.


we eat and we drink and we smoke and we try!

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Tracered
member
Location: Salem, Oregon USA
Member Since: 13th Mar 2002
Total posts: 71
Posted:I did a lot of research after posting this topic, and I ran across the topic of biodiesel. I got ahold of a gallon of this stuff, and it works really quite well. Its based on soybean oil, and its less than 1/10 as toxic as table salt, with a very high flashpoint, so its a much safer fuel than anything else I have seen used. I have been told that it is a bit more flammable than vegetable oil, but I haven't really used vegetable oil as a fuel before. If you are interested in a safer fuel than kero, check this stuff out.

I might just have to give vegetable oil a try one of these days when I run out of biodiesel. It would sure be a hell of a lot cheaper (unless you can lay your hands on some free biodiesel like me )

peace


An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind - Mahatma Gandhi

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Posted:I was wondering if there is anything which will disolve in paraffin to make a coloured flame, that is safe for fuel aspiration (fire breathing)?

[ 05 May 2002, 03:35: Message edited by: Rainbow the magician ]


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adren@line
member
Location: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Member Since: 28th Mar 2002
Total posts: 249
Posted:theres only one way to find out...

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adamrice
adamrice

poo-bah
Location: Austin TX USA
Member Since: 19th Dec 2000
Total posts: 1015
Posted:I'm skeptical that you'd get colored flames using anything other than denatured alcohol for fuel--the problem is that most fuels' natural color when burning overwhelms the colorant's color, even if you can get the colorant to dissolve. Plus the chemicals used for coloring flames are usually even nastier than the fuel, health-wise.

Laugh while you can, monkey-boy

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arashi
arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx
Member Since: 21st Mar 2002
Total posts: 2363
Posted:cool... i'm glad i'm wrong!! i tried all of them that i could, even warmed up lard and alcohol!! what brand soybean oil did you use?
oh boy oh boy oh boy!!!
i've been trying to get some orange oil fuel hapennin... forget that, now!!!


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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arashi
arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx
Member Since: 21st Mar 2002
Total posts: 2363
Posted:also, santana, are we talking wimpy little ten footers, or nice happy thirty footers? i just went to whole foods and they didn't even have any, no wonder i never found it. and somebody told me biodiesel sucks. so how big are we talking here?

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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Maelstrom
Maelstrom

member
Location: Akron, Ohio
Member Since: 12th Sep 2001
Total posts: 135
Posted:Beating the dead horse again I see. There have been all sorts of threads started on this vary topic. You should do a search.

Thirty foot flame.....I'd like to see that.


Nothing good ever comes from hanging out with normal people.

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arashi
arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx
Member Since: 21st Mar 2002
Total posts: 2363
Posted:well, shoot... come to a show (it's much easier to do one indoors that's that big- i'm not sure i could do it outdoors). and i'll do that search, but i hope someone that's good has written about this soybean action, cause i could never get it to work. i'm gonna be busy 2nite!

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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SickpuPpy
SickpuPpy

Ninja Rockstar!
Location: Denver, Co. U.S.A.
Member Since: 27th Nov 2001
Total posts: 1100
Posted:Are you shure that you mean 30 feet?
That's three stories tall. You must have one hell of a set of lungs.

The only time I've ever seen a fire ball that big at a performance was done in quite an opoosite manner. He had two dust pans full of powderd non-dairy creamer and he dumped the creamer off the balcony over a torch (also on the balcony) and that resulted in a three story fire ball. But doing it spitting fuel out of your mouth? Forgive me if I'm a little bet skeptical.


Jesus helps me trick people.

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Maelstrom
Maelstrom

member
Location: Akron, Ohio
Member Since: 12th Sep 2001
Total posts: 135
Posted:I agree with Sickpuppy. As far as I can tell there's just no way. Maybe that Rum is imparing your judgement.

Nothing good ever comes from hanging out with normal people.

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arashi
arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx
Member Since: 21st Mar 2002
Total posts: 2363
Posted:well, that is of course, my best length, and i need to use lamp oil to do it... but yes, it is possible! with a real good blow, the flame puffs up and travels high into the air like a mushroom cloud way beyond what you are actually blowing. i can get twenty feet easily, make it dance on the ceiling in a metal building. course the copious 'smoking' is beginning to take it's toll, and i haven't been blowin with lamp oil lately...but i can! im no liar! you just have to blow really hard, with tai chi deep breathing type ab squeezing, and a long, steady stream...

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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moonwatcher
member
Location: Newcastle, UK
Member Since: 18th May 2002
Total posts: 14
Posted:Ok, I really can not get any type of vegetble oil to work. Got some Soya bean, heated it up as hot as I could stand and still absolutely nothing. Nice smell though!
Thirty feet????? Very sceptical, my biggest is about 9. That felt really big though. To be fair I do not consider myself much of a fire breather but my limited knowledge combined with common sense tells me that 30 is somewhat unlikely.


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.draevon
.draevon

member
Location: Androgen
Member Since: 12th Dec 2000
Total posts: 92
Posted:Howdy Kids,

Around a year ago I was talking with the nice people at Guiness World Records about establishing a fire breathing record. I can fire breathe to around about 25 feet pretty consistantly in still weather. The were talking about flying me to London to make my record attempt on their little show GWRPT (Guinness World Records Prime Time). I talked with them for around a month while we were working out dates and arrangements etc.

One day I got an email from the producer of GWRPT (Guinness World Records Prime Time) telling me that they had just found a previous record of some guy who had produced a flame which measured 43 feet from his mouth. He told me that I would have to be able to compete with this record if I wanted to appear on their show, GWRPT (Guinness World Records Prime Time). I told him I could not do so, and I never heard from him again.

I wrote him several letters/emails asking him if I could see the evidence of this previously established record, but I never heard back from them. 43 feet does seem awfully long. But you never know.

And so I never appeared on GWRPT (Guinness World Records Prime Time).

raevon
of Incendium
www.incendium.org


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arashi
arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx
Member Since: 21st Mar 2002
Total posts: 2363
Posted:I DO NOT LIE!!!!!! let me state that for the record. unless i'm being a personality that is a liar, in which case i will talk funny, usually. or have a banana in my nose. now that i've been backed up, let me say... thirty feet isn't even too hard if you got a good set of lungs! get me back on my weecycle and watch me, now, hey! work work...
hey draevon... maybe that guy is using some crazy fuel mix. i bet he's got some coleman or something HIGHLY flammable in there. did they say what the fuel was? i'm going for that record, dammit! see you on the battlefield! hamekameha!


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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Charles
Charles

Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland
Member Since: 27th Jun 2001
Total posts: 3989
Posted:Well...I must admit, either I'm another sceptic or there is a language problem here...

My first reaction to arashi's comment was that he was talking about a 30 foot LONG fireball. I don't think that is possible. Please let me know if that intepretation is actually correct because others may have thought that at first too ...

However, if you are talking about either

1. A fire ball that travels 30 feet upwards, from the time you blow to the time it goes out.

or

2. A technique where you 'follow' your first fire with more so that a stream chases the first bit up into the sky, possibly extending for dozens of feet.

Number 2 sounds to me like a plausible explanation, although I thought you only used that "other" fuel to breathe with (the one I feel is just as dangerous as kero or lamp oil).

Is either of these what you do?

Have I understood this or not?


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* Is it the Truth?
* Is it Fair to all concerned?
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arashi
arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx
Member Since: 21st Mar 2002
Total posts: 2363
Posted:well, i'm dumb an i'm not sure what # 2 is, do you mean like blow more than one time, in spurts? no. just one big long one. with a good blow, you get a good 3 or 4 seconds(or more) of really strong exhalation. by then, the plume just tumbles up over itself and does a mushroom cloud. and the top of it at the end of it's life is WELL over twenty feet in the air. i mean, i'm 6 feet tall, and anybody that thinks a ten foot fireball is big simply hasn't seen a big fireball. it just takes a large lung capacity. "cough cough"
and i do use lamp oil 'sometimes'. you need it to get real big balls. everybody likes big balls. "the one <WE> feel is just as dangerous as kero or lamp oil." read what i was saying carefully, i'm just bad at talking. better yet don't i think that whole communication was disasterous from the get go. just trying to help, but oh well...


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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moonwatcher
member
Location: Newcastle, UK
Member Since: 18th May 2002
Total posts: 14
Posted:Where are you from? i want to come and see you do a "big" fireball. I am not saying that you are lying to us, just that you have misinterpreted scale a little.
Draevon, 43 feet!!!!! that is truly amazing, i would love to have seen the guy who can do that.
It sounds like both draevon and arashi could give me tips on my firebreathing, like I said 9 feet is my absolute record, I average around 4 - 5. Do you guys have a special technique for these huge plumes or is it just blow really hard?


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arashi
arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx
Member Since: 21st Mar 2002
Total posts: 2363
Posted:well, i would say if yours are only nine feet, that you are just not putting very much fuel out there. you have to be comfortable enough with your technique that you are not afraid! you have to throw that away, and just put as much fuel up in the air as you possibly can. i get real lightheaded after a few blows, cause my diaphragm is pushing SOOO hard, my head fells like it will pop... but i would say, don't try this unless you've got somebody good to show you... sounds like you would be running a risk at this stage in your developement, so at least take it carefully, but do your will. i'd be happy to show you at burning man, we'll have our whole huge sound system (drum and bassy, third world tribal, and breakbeat/techno, mostly) and dance space set up for firedancing, we'll all be there, and el cirque, and sage, and natalie, and y'all, and some other circus folks from all over the world!

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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.draevon
.draevon

member
Location: Androgen
Member Since: 12th Dec 2000
Total posts: 92
Posted:Mr Charles,

When I talk about 25 feet, I mean that 25 feet about how far off the ground my flame reaches before it dissapates. When the people from GWRPT (Guinness World Records Prime Time) wrote to me, they were talking about a person who produced a flame 43 feet in length measured from their mouth. I don't know anything more about this person, but I knew that I couldn't compete with anything like that (I think it highly unlikely that this is even possible without some 'loophole'). I tried to talk to the Guinness people to find out the story about this guy, but they lost interest in me pretty quickly after I told them I didn't think I could break their 'record'.

As far as a solid fire ball, I'm not really sure how I go there measurement wise. Probably the best picture I've seen of this is this one:


Non-Https Image Link


Technique-wise, there isn't really anything special to producing a large fire breathe. I think it has a lot to do with lung capacity and strength ... and enough practise to make the most of what you have. It's pretty much a matter of getting as much fuel out as far away from your body as fast as you can. With safety elements of course.

It is frightfully dangerous, but I assume we all know that.

raevon
of Incendium
www.incendium.org


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Rozi
100 characters max...
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Member Since: 11th Jan 2002
Total posts: 2996
Posted:Wow!!! That is amazing!! But you are awfully close to those overhanging branches!!

It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.

What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...

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arashi
arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx
Member Since: 21st Mar 2002
Total posts: 2363
Posted:righto, wwwell put my good man! yes yes

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted:Draevon, last I checked the Guiness Book stopped taking these things on for two reasons, people were literally killing themselves trying to top these feats and many governments told them to stop. Also, their form of measurement was called into severe question.

There is no true way to guage a firebreath's length. From the breathers end there is little depth perception as far as how long it is. It rolls and dissipates much to quickly to really be accurate and photo's are not a good source because of exposure issues elongating the flame.
The only thing I have found that really works for a good approximation is the breathe beside something static which you know the height of. For example, I *know* that *indoors* I can breathe well over two stories because I did so while people were standing on the second story balcony. They backed up as the flame passed them and then told me about it. Therefore, I did breathe over 20 if not 30 feet into the air but there is no clear concise measurement so it is all just a good day at work for me.

AND...I am really disturbed at the amount of "it has to be bigger" and "9 feet is nothing" mentality working here. Dammit! It takes alot of guts and daring and knowledge to breathe a 2 foot plume as safely as possible arashi. I found your comment to the contrary perfectly insulting to everyone who has ventured into this wanting knowledge.
This whole bigger is better sounds like alot of male bravado and a giant pissing contest if you ask me.

And yes Charles, #2 is the way it is done, except without adding more fuel in the middle. You let it out strongly and steadily. Speed without accuracy of aspiration will do nothing but cause trouble or a damp torch.


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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Maelstrom
Maelstrom

member
Location: Akron, Ohio
Member Since: 12th Sep 2001
Total posts: 135
Posted:I'm going to have to agree with Pele. This bigger is better stuff is for the birds. From a performance stand point you are going to get the same reaction from a 9 foot flame as a 30 foot flame. Besides, at most "indoor" venues in the Unites States you are going to need a fire marshal to disarm the fire alarm system and monitor the fire performace. You can not convince me that the second the fire marshal sees uncontroled fire "rolling on the ceil" (Arashi), that they are going to allow the show to go on. What do you put in your permit discription? "Then performer blows plume 30 feet in the air and allows fire to role along cieling. BTW if you are operating with out a permit you are putting yourself, and the venue at a very real legal risk. Heck it dosen't even have to be a venue, as long as it is a building open to the public.

IMHO, it is all about control. Lets see a plume slowly growing from 9 feet, to 25 feet. I would think that would not only look cool, but would illustrate total control of your artist medium. Anyone can just though alot of fuel in the air to get a big ball of fire. If a big fir ball is all you are going for, why not just start making flame throwing divices, and stop putting yourself and those around you at risk.


Nothing good ever comes from hanging out with normal people.

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catboy
member
Location: leicester, england
Member Since: 24th Sep 2001
Total posts: 167
Posted:I agree about the whole 'mines bigger than yours' side of the thread being complete bo"/*cks, but I wanted some good answers on bio fuels... I have just started doing firebreathing, but am over the tase of parafin, and thought I might get some good tech. advice on alternative fuels...

What do other people use?...
What works well?...
What tastes nice!...

I have looked at bio diesel on the net, but the problem is getting hold of it in the UK without making it for yourself... can anyone recomend something a bit easier to get hold of which is similar to kero?...


you can take the cat out of the jungle, but you cant take the jungle out of the cat

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Wikkaman
member
Location: The Birthplace of BlackSabbath
Member Since: 11th Apr 2002
Total posts: 259
Posted:orginally posted by arashi
quote: you need it to get real big balls. everybody likes big balls heheheheh....


The answer is never the answer. What's really interesting is the mystery. If you seek the mystery instead of the answer, you'll always be seeking. I've never seen anybody really find the answer-- they think they have, so they stop thinking. But the job is to seek mystery, evoke mystery, plant a garden in which strange plants grow and mysteries bloom. The need for mystery is greater than the need for an answer.-- Ken Kesey

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DJ Dantana
veteran
Location: Stillwater, Ok. USA
Member Since: 15th Aug 2001
Total posts: 1495
Posted:Well, I guess I am just blowing "tiny little" 10 to 15 foot fire balls. But I pride myself on not using stuff that can kill me (have any of you read the MSDS on the fuel you are using?) Anyways, it takes skill to blow a 10 or 15 foot fire ball with vegetable oil, I have freinds who have to use parrafin to get as big a fire ball as I can with just warm vegetable oil. With that being said, there is a trick to getting a good fire ball, you have to use a torch that is REALY hot and with a big flame, otherwise the oil just doesn't ignite very well. also, make a FINE MIST when you aspirate. Sure maybe I do get a little jealouse when I see john easily blowing a 20 foot fire ball with parrafin, but I can blow a 15 with veggy oil, which isn't going to give me cancer, or pnuemonia, or gastrointestinal poisoning, so I just have to live with it. And to be honest, the crowd doesn't notice that much of a difference, I still get gasps out of them as much as john. The only time I saw a 30 foot fire ball was when my crazy freind paul was drunk, and he snuck up and grabbed the parrafin, and then he grabbed some gasoline (it was like slow motion, I ran towards him saying NOOO!!!, but it was to late, and he let one go, it was amazing, the next morning his tooth broke off, because the gasoline killed the nerves and he couldn't feel his tooth. We swore to dis-own him if he ever even thought about doing that again... and he promised he wouldn't, after loosing his tooth...

[ 30 May 2002, 16:56: Message edited by: santanatwo ]


we eat and we drink and we smoke and we try!

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arashi
arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx
Member Since: 21st Mar 2002
Total posts: 2363
Posted:why must we all be so tense? i wasn't being all "mine's bigger," i was just trying to find out how big a blow you get with soybean oil relative to paraffin. stop jumping to the worst conclusions you can about me.blowing a 10 foot flame is fine. i just wanted to know how it stacked up to a lamp oil blow. i never said small is bad. okay i called them 'wimpy' but i was playing. i just said the truth, which is that there are way bigger ways to blow, and that he could get them bigger if he wanted by changing his technique. so there. so this pissing contest is all in your mind as has nothing to do with me. and by the way, it 'rolled along the ceiling' in my good friend's really tall all METAL warehouse with no audience. so chill. i would never do that in a venue. sprinklers make people wet.you're so far wrong about me, in fact as you know i gave up 'big fireballs' in favor of a healthier fuel, or had you forgotten that part? we're all just talking shit cause it's fun and educational. i am not the person you are reading into my words so stop reacting to yourself! i'm okay your okay! Love Love Love is the way to speak and think, be mindful of your thought, esp. your reactions to people!

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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arashi
arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx
Member Since: 21st Mar 2002
Total posts: 2363
Posted:hey santana, could we get a brand name on the stuff you got? it's just not worked out with anything i've tried. i'm so excited!

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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