Forums > Technical Discussion > Fire Going Out / Fuel Spraying Off

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HOWEARD
member
Location: Palma,Mallorca,Spain
Member Since: 3rd Apr 2002
Total posts: 1
Posted:Hi There. I am working in a show in Mallorca Spain.There are 6 of us on stage lighting off one person to start the event.We originally used asbestos wraps and had no problems with the fires going out or spraying , we are now using kevlar wraps and at some stage when twirling 1 or 2 pois go out. The poi's are dunked in fuel minutes before going onto stage. Because we have around 1000 people in we are limited for space working in the center of the crowd and the rest on stage. Our problem at the moment is the fuel is spraying everywhere as we are twirlling, and if we leave the poi's standing for too long out of fuel they go out and we look stupid! Can anyone suggest how to stop the fuel spraying off and or the fires going out.I forgot to say we use 4 star petrol,the fire show tends to last for about two minutes.

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Dom
Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK
Member Since: 19th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3009
Posted:OK, first thing. *cough* You use petrol as fuel! You've got a thousand people, little room, and you're using a really flamable fuel!!!!! Stop that right now!Fuel - use Paraffin. Safety wise it's probably the difference between learning to juggle using ultra sharp knives or clubs. It will probably burn a lot longer than petrol too. Other people are going to give more detail on this and hopefully back me up.Wick - What type of wicks are you using? Rolls of Kevlar? Try the cube or cathedral wicks, like these but for a performance make them taller - mine are about 15cm high and give a great flame. These wicks tend to burn longer and bigger - my wicks burn for a good few minutes, no problem.Soaking - soak you wicks for a good length of time before lighting up. This way there will be a lot of fuel inside the wicks (cube wicks have a larger internal fuel store than some wrapped wicks).Spin off - To remove excess fuel once the first excess has dripped off the poi after soaking spin the poi unlit to remove the dangerous excess that can fly into the crowd and burn people. In a small area place something around the wicks, like a small plastic container to catch the drips.This should solve your problems, and make you safer. [This message has been edited by -Dom- (edited 03 April 2002).]

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adamrice
adamrice

poo-bah
Location: Austin TX USA
Member Since: 19th Dec 2000
Total posts: 1015
Posted:I can imagine a few ways of dealing with this1. Stop using petrol. As Dom said, it's dangerous and it gives a short burn. I believe paraffin is the same thing as lamp oil, which is what I use, and gives 5-minute burns, maybe longer.2. How long is the act? If you had 5-minute burns, how many soakings would you need? While this may be a little/a lot equipment-intensive, you could have multiple sets of wicks pre-soaked and pre-spun-out waiting in a cannister (an army-surplus ammo box would be perfect), and swap them as needed. Lamp oil is not very volatile, and it would not evaporate off the wicks very quickly while in this temporary storage.3. Isn't there any way to get outside and spin out the wicks between light-ups? I've toyed with the idea of building a small tent specifically for spinning out in crowded places, but haven't done so.It's interesting to hear you didn't have a problem with cast-off fuel when using asbestos wicks. I've never seen asbestos wicks myself (asbestos is hard to find in the USA).Caveats: like I said, lamp oil is less volatile. Which means that the cast-off fuel tends to stick longer. Even with vigorous spinning out, you'll still have some cast-off fuel, and that can make the floor slick if enough accumulates.

Laugh while you can, monkey-boy

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Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted:In addition to using lamp oil/paraffin/kerosene which is ***much*** safer you can reduce spray by squeazing the wicks out (we are toying with a vice type idea), you can spin them out in a bag with a towel for abosorbtion in the bottom or blot them on a towel. As Adam said, oils do not evaporate readily and so you can leave them out and have them fueled up when you come back.
Along those lines if timing is an issue....time your segments better. If you know how long your show is to last, and you know how long a burn will last, choreograph accordingly to always have the stage covered but to also give everyone the opportunity to either refuel or change up poi (have another set already fueled and ready to go for a quick relight and change).
Good luck


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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Knagi
member
Location: Brunswick, Ohio
Member Since: 28th Jun 2001
Total posts: 397
Posted:I'm workin on core wrapping kitchen towels then wrapping over that with double stacked kevlar. Doubt you would get any embers commin from it. That would also solve your time problems... 5 min burns pffff

We are all in the cosmic movie. That means the day you die you watch your whole life repeating for eternity. So you'd better have some good things happen in there and have a fitting climax. --Jim MorrisonIt's going to come from a direction you didn't predict at a moment of chaos which you didn't see coming. -- NYC

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adamrice
adamrice

poo-bah
Location: Austin TX USA
Member Since: 19th Dec 2000
Total posts: 1015
Posted:Obviously you can always make a longer-burning wick if you make it bigger. Not everyone wants that.

Laugh while you can, monkey-boy

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frodus
member
Location: roanoke, VA
Member Since: 30th Apr 2001
Total posts: 92
Posted:hey
question
when you say paraffin
do you mean something like coleman fuel as opposed to kerrosene?

i'll be spinning inside, we use either kero or colemans
and i heard, using colemans inside is safer because of smell/smoke and slickness

let me know


Peace,Travis IM: frodus17

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Knagi
member
Location: Brunswick, Ohio
Member Since: 28th Jun 2001
Total posts: 397
Posted:Colemans goes outside... And well away from me..
Stick with the non explosive fuels indoors. Kerocine and Lamp oil.. Lamp oil is sold at most hardware stores as tiki torch fuel. Kerocine can be found at alot of gas stations. Paraffin is a purer form of lamp oil. Both of them give burn times longer then kero and also do well for smoke/smell. Kero would prolly cause ppl indoors to flee to a better smelling, less smokey area.


We are all in the cosmic movie. That means the day you die you watch your whole life repeating for eternity. So you'd better have some good things happen in there and have a fitting climax. --Jim MorrisonIt's going to come from a direction you didn't predict at a moment of chaos which you didn't see coming. -- NYC

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arashi
arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx
Member Since: 21st Mar 2002
Total posts: 2363
Posted:well crap i just typed out this huge paragraph response and accidentally posted it as a new topic- check out the "fuels" topic- if you care. sorry.

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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frodus
member
Location: roanoke, VA
Member Since: 30th Apr 2001
Total posts: 92
Posted:i'm gonna mix 50/50 lamp oil and coleman and practice some with it this week

Peace,Travis IM: frodus17

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Maximus
member
Location: Upland, CA., USA
Member Since: 13th Dec 2001
Total posts: 250
Posted:Here is the no-spray protocol used by our troupe:
I experimented and weighed a dry poi. Then I dunked it and spun it off, and then I weighed it again. The difference was the amount of fuel retained in a properly spun-off poi. This weighed out to be about 2 fluid oz.
So we use a chemistry beaker and measure out 2 oz. fuel per wick and pour it over the wicking. Give it a couple of minutes to soak in evenly. We will cover them in plastic baggies if we have to wait longer than that. Then give it a shake--nothing. You are ready to go.
I found that when you dunk almost half of the fuel on the poi gets sprayed off on the ground, meaning that half of the money you spend on fuel is getting wasted.

Maximus


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Maximus
member
Location: Upland, CA., USA
Member Since: 13th Dec 2001
Total posts: 250
Posted:ooops, repeat...

[ 08 April 2002, 06:07: Message edited by: Maximus ]


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adamrice
adamrice

poo-bah
Location: Austin TX USA
Member Since: 19th Dec 2000
Total posts: 1015
Posted:Frodus--

No question, you are right about the slickness problem. White gas/Coleman gas has lamp oil and kerosene beat in that regard, because it evaporates so quickly. This means you need to be more careful to have your wicks really spun out. Even still, there may be a bit of cast-off fuel, and after spinning a while, you may need to take a break to let it evaporate.

White gas is not necessarily better than lamp oil in terms of smoke and smell--it's about the same as plain clear lamp oil. It's a bit smokier and smellier than the expensive "ultra-pure" lamp oil.

Maximus--
The measured fuel idea is ingenious. Never tried it. Sounds like it's kind of fussy and slow--is it?


Laugh while you can, monkey-boy

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Maximus
member
Location: Upland, CA., USA
Member Since: 13th Dec 2001
Total posts: 250
Posted:Adam, yes it is a little fussy. I look like a mad scientist, kneeling there and squinting at my beaker. But I have a piece of red tape on the beaker at the right amount, and, being a bartender, I pour out the right amount nine times out of ten. It pours out of the beaker onto the kevlar quickly (I have a little catch pail set underneath it), and I skip the spinning-off step.
I think I prep as quickly if not quicker this way.

Maximus


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Charles
Charles

Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland
Member Since: 27th Jun 2001
Total posts: 3989
Posted:That's truly ingenious, Maximus!

Sometimes the simple ideas really are the best...



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Shouden-CrD
Veteran Member
Location: Tampa, FL, USA
Member Since: 30th Apr 2001
Total posts: 495
Posted:Indeed, but in order for that information to be useful to any of us, we need to know what kind of fuel was used in the "Experiment" and also what kind/size wicks were used. (=

PLURR
r


-=razyRaverude=-

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Maximus
member
Location: Upland, CA., USA
Member Since: 13th Dec 2001
Total posts: 250
Posted:The methodology should work no matter what your fuel or wick. Weigh your poi, dunk, spin off, and weigh again. Do a little math and you've got the right amount of fuel you should be using.
This works for staff as well as poi, cathedral as well as rolled wicks, and as for fuel, I use a 50/50 white gas/lamp oil mix.
If you're still stumped, just try measuring out two fluid oz. of fuel onto your poi and see if it still sprays out. If it does, use less. If it doesn't, you can add more.
Mutatis mutandis for your own particular equipment.

Maximus


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Knagi
member
Location: Brunswick, Ohio
Member Since: 28th Jun 2001
Total posts: 397
Posted:Btw... Towel wrapped cores are a success. Acouple layers of towel under the kevlar gives it nearly 3x the burn time.

We are all in the cosmic movie. That means the day you die you watch your whole life repeating for eternity. So you'd better have some good things happen in there and have a fitting climax. --Jim MorrisonIt's going to come from a direction you didn't predict at a moment of chaos which you didn't see coming. -- NYC

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nesto
member
Location: ogden utah
Member Since: 22nd Feb 2009
Total posts: 1
Posted:hey knaqi if you got a way to make burn time longer share the wealth... how do you make up your rig.
EDITED_BY: nesto (1235252437)


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