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Forums > Technical Discussion > biodiesel for fire breathe fuel?
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Posted:Now I know that there have been plenty of posts about dangers of fire breathing, and I have done a search etc here for fuels...but I was just wondering if anyone had come up with a good and safe firebreathing fuel yet...well an advancement on the "cooking oil" that was suggested in one of the threads. I saw murmurs of using biodiesel..has anyone tried this?? Did some research on this stuff...and dont know that I would be that keen to try it unless I knew it had been very carefully made...most processes for making biodiesel use methanol...which is very very poisonous and will make you blind. Now this is only used as a catalyst in the process, but if not prepared properly would any of this be left in the fuel?? Hmm anybody actually tried this stuff?? Does it work well? Would I have to make it myself if I want to try some here in Perth??
fe fi foo fun
Delete TopicPosted:im not a very experianced fire breather but i vowwed never to use any fuel that has the word, diesal/ ..soline/..sene/..ite in it at all... much safer that way...just in case even if they founf out that diesal gas was the safest thing int he world to set on fire... ITS NOT!!can you say...... SKIN GRAFT!!!!
Teach tolerance, not competition.
Send food, not bombs.
Posted:I'm curious, if you don't use any fuel with ...sene in it, or any of that other stuff(which may I add I heartily agree with, although, I do believe biodiesel is something different), what do you use?
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Posted:I do not breathe fire, but I have spun biodiesel. I think Pele has tried biodiesel and found that it did work, but didn't give a very impressive blast. And I can attest that it is fairly smoky and smelly (and it's a weird smell, like french fries, sorta).Sorcha, a name's just a name. Biodiesel is basically just distilled soy oil, and has the highest flashpoint of any fuel I know of (300°F). In terms of safety, biodiesel probably has whatever you're using beat.
Laugh while you can, monkey-boy
DeletePosted:Just for any that dont realise what biodiesel is...basically you get vegetable or animal oils...they can be fresh or have been used to cook food. You then basically add various chemicals to take the glycerol out of the oil so you are left with methyl esters, or ethyl esters...which you are then able to put into a standard Diesel powered vehicle and drive away. Is being looked at as a handy recycling option...I think one of the city councils here in oz is running some of their trucks on biodiesel. Anyway, as it is just converted edible oils I was thinking it might be rather a bit safer than using distilled petroleum products...but need to know (where is Pele when you need her...) whether it produces a good fire ball or not.------------------fe fi foo fun
fe fi foo fun
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Posted:A. I am moving this to technical.B. I'm baaa-aack!
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(waving to adam and foobaa)C. Biodiesel being of a thick consistancy is harder to aspirate and so therefore does not plume as much as other fuels. It is smokey, smelly, sooty, and thick to coat the mouth, as are cooking oils that have been tried to blow with. If not aspirated correctly they put out your torch and coat it, making it difficult for relighting. Personally, I do not feel it is worth it, especially in a show capacity where it is important to really produce a audience wowing product.Also there have been no *real* studies on biodiesel as far as ingestion is concerned, just the belief that because it is made from food products that it is "safe". Along those lines of thought, alcohol is made of wheat, barley and other edible components and while it is ingestible but after extended use I would hardly call it "safe".I also want to point out that biodiesel is made of various things, depending on the company and region where you get it. Soy is a big base product, however, many people are allergic to soy products, so be aware of this.Vegetarian fire breathers (yes there are some) would want to watch for the animal product based versions.As for not breathing with anything ending with -diesel, -sene, -tane, etc. I am very curious as to what you do breathe with. Even those things labelled as parafin have amounts of purified kerosene in them. It is truly unavoidable.Anyway, my .02Cheerios!------------------Pele Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir...http://www.pyromorph.com
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(waving to adam and foobaa)C. Biodiesel being of a thick consistancy is harder to aspirate and so therefore does not plume as much as other fuels. It is smokey, smelly, sooty, and thick to coat the mouth, as are cooking oils that have been tried to blow with. If not aspirated correctly they put out your torch and coat it, making it difficult for relighting. Personally, I do not feel it is worth it, especially in a show capacity where it is important to really produce a audience wowing product.Also there have been no *real* studies on biodiesel as far as ingestion is concerned, just the belief that because it is made from food products that it is "safe". Along those lines of thought, alcohol is made of wheat, barley and other edible components and while it is ingestible but after extended use I would hardly call it "safe".I also want to point out that biodiesel is made of various things, depending on the company and region where you get it. Soy is a big base product, however, many people are allergic to soy products, so be aware of this.Vegetarian fire breathers (yes there are some) would want to watch for the animal product based versions.As for not breathing with anything ending with -diesel, -sene, -tane, etc. I am very curious as to what you do breathe with. Even those things labelled as parafin have amounts of purified kerosene in them. It is truly unavoidable.Anyway, my .02Cheerios!------------------Pele Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir...http://www.pyromorph.com
Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK
Posted:Thanks for that Pele, I thought that it might be something like that. Cant buy the stuff here at the moment so I could not just go try it....Oh and as for the moving to technical, I fully agree, but I am a little hesitant to start topics there as I am not sure if anyone goes in there to reply...I know that I always check out the social discussion first...Umm am I allowed to ask what you use at the present Pele?? ------------------fe fi foo fun
fe fi foo fun
DeletePosted:Actually, the MSDSs I've seen for biodiesel show very clearly that it has been tested for toxicity on ingestion (on rats, of course, not people), and that it is safe. There are different grades of biodiesel, but even the worst of them would require you to ingest *a lot* to suffer any health effects. Some grades are innocuous, IIRC.
Laugh while you can, monkey-boy
DeletePosted:Foobaa, technical is one of the most active forums, so I don't think you should have much to worry about in the future.
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Anyway, I use Lamplight Farms clear lamp oil. If I want it colored I simply add food coloring. Water makes for a good enough rehearsal liquid.Adam, I have read about 5 reports on biodiesel, each site and each country seems to have done their own reports. The research only dates back a few years, instead of any established amount of time, which, as one report stated, does not allow for enough time to determine long time use side effects.Of course, it was an American site with the photo of a guy drinking the stuff (bleck!).There have been problems with soy sensitive people and the smoke off of the soy based product. There have been heart issues from on the animal based product. The vegetable base seems to be the best bet.For the majority of us, biodiesel is only available through mail order, is expensive and simply impractical for what we do really. The smoke and smell prohibits indoor use and is annoying in outdoor use imho. I don't feel it is cost effective for spinning, nor does it really burn any better/longer in my opinion than kerosene. Technically it is not made for ingestion so as I stated the research on that is not full and is still at best questionable. Personally I would rather know what issues I face and figure out the best way to buffer them than constantly question the safety. But this is all just my opinion/observations.------------------Pele Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir...http://www.pyromorph.com
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Anyway, I use Lamplight Farms clear lamp oil. If I want it colored I simply add food coloring. Water makes for a good enough rehearsal liquid.Adam, I have read about 5 reports on biodiesel, each site and each country seems to have done their own reports. The research only dates back a few years, instead of any established amount of time, which, as one report stated, does not allow for enough time to determine long time use side effects.Of course, it was an American site with the photo of a guy drinking the stuff (bleck!).There have been problems with soy sensitive people and the smoke off of the soy based product. There have been heart issues from on the animal based product. The vegetable base seems to be the best bet.For the majority of us, biodiesel is only available through mail order, is expensive and simply impractical for what we do really. The smoke and smell prohibits indoor use and is annoying in outdoor use imho. I don't feel it is cost effective for spinning, nor does it really burn any better/longer in my opinion than kerosene. Technically it is not made for ingestion so as I stated the research on that is not full and is still at best questionable. Personally I would rather know what issues I face and figure out the best way to buffer them than constantly question the safety. But this is all just my opinion/observations.------------------Pele Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir...http://www.pyromorph.com
Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK
Posted:ok.. im sorry your all right..im a moron..
Teach tolerance, not competition.
Send food, not bombs.
Posted:Has anyone looked at www.juggleart.com The have a product caled Fire Water which you can also buy from the Valley markets here in Brisbane if anyone is interested.I have never used it myeslf but I am told that it has no smell, no taste, and is clear (so just dont mistake it for water). Though fairly expensive $4-$5 a litre i reckon this could be a good fuel to use for firebreating. Any comments or thoughts ? My 1 part shellite : 4 part kero mix don't taste to good
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Simply an excuse to play with fire.
DeletePosted:I've just started using firewater as poi and staff fuel. I've never fire breathed with it, as I don't firebreathe. But, I've mentioned elsewhere how impressed I was with the brightness of lampoil, I reckon firewater's gonna give it a run for it's money - and it's cheaper to boot!
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Posted:heylo... I can't imagine ye olde biodiesel would give a fantastic plumage thanks to everyone else's input and my own experimentations. I had to say though, that if you do decide to purchase "Fire Water", then you had best do it through Juggleart in Melbourne and not a stall at the Valley markets.There is some person/people who shall go unnamed in Brisbane who try to sell a kind of 'fire water' (however they change the name of it sometimes because they got into trouble with Juggleart for not selling the real deal at all). I've seen it flogged off as "Pire water" (turning the F into a P with a Nikko pen) This so called fake "fire water" is less safe than the real deal "Fire Water" from Juggleart.Even the real Fire Water from Juggleart is not a safe fuel to breathe with however. This is also a common myth. Juggleart themselves recommend not to use it for this purpose. There is NO *SAFE* fire breathing fuel on the market. I also have a comment about using Shellite as a fire breathing fuel.. even using it in a 1 part/4 part mixture is extremely dangerous.Be safe. [This message has been edited by splat (edited 17 December 2001).]
The beautiful thing about learning is that no one can take it away from you.- B.B.King
DeletePosted:Seeming to be the token US-er on this thread, Fire Water, Shellite and ShelsolT are not6 available in the US. Something about import of a fuel.*shrug* I do know a couple of friends who have breathed with Fire Water have commented that it always leaves a tingling feeling in their mouth. I don't know what that means but it sounds funky to me.I couldn't agree more Splat...there is no such thing as completely safe in fire breathing...either in fuel or technique. It is ***always*** a dangerous risk. Please all, keep that in mind.
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Blows and shows to ya!
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------------------Pele Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir...http://www.pyromorph.com
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Blows and shows to ya!
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------------------Pele Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir...http://www.pyromorph.com
Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK
Posted:***WARNING I AM NOT A FIREBREATHER***heheh now that that is out of the way... back when i did the whole drum circle thing at TRF near Houston there was me, the poier and 5 fire breathers. 2 of them, Thorn and Lobo, provided the fuel. They had a couple of gallons of biodiesel. It seemed to give good flames, almost blew back when they did a huge 5-person shot, but other than that it seemed fine. Thorn and Lobo said it is all they use. It did coat their bodies in a nice glistening layer *laf* they used it fairly well for trailing a bit too.just my 2 cents worth..wulff
wulff
DeletePosted:I am not too keen on the idea of biodiesel, now that I have read Pele's view on it I am even more against using it. Anything that can make my torches difficult to use is not something that I am keen on.
I don't think we'll ever find a truly 'safe' fuel to use in the art of fire breathing sadly.
I don't think we'll ever find a truly 'safe' fuel to use in the art of fire breathing sadly.
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newgabe
SILVER Member since Mar 2005
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SILVER Member since Mar 2005
what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
Location: Bali, Australia
Total posts: 4030
Posted: Written by: s-p-l-a-t
if you do decide to purchase "Fire Water", then you had best do it through Juggleart in Melbourne and not a stall at the Valley markets.
No need for Brisvegans to get fuel from Melbourne!
The fuel that used to be on sale at the Valley markets stall was Firesol from Gooble Warming (West End) and was excellent for spinning. I don't think that stall is still there but Gooble certainly is. Which exact variant of deodorised paraffin they sell depends on what is available from the chemical wholesalers but is generally Isopar G or KsolT etc... flashpoint around 38.
A lot of us Brisvegans buy the same type of fuel (or d60, flashpoint 60)in 20l drums direct from the suppliers.
An advantage of d60 is that the higher flashpoint removes it from dangerous goods category and it can be cleared to take on planes. (maybe not out of London at the moment.. yr not allowed to take deodorant let alone deodorised fuel!)
I often have a drum to fill labelled bottles at cost price at Moonfests but I would not sell it to someone intending to firebreathe with it as that is a banned activity there.
if you do decide to purchase "Fire Water", then you had best do it through Juggleart in Melbourne and not a stall at the Valley markets.
No need for Brisvegans to get fuel from Melbourne!
The fuel that used to be on sale at the Valley markets stall was Firesol from Gooble Warming (West End) and was excellent for spinning. I don't think that stall is still there but Gooble certainly is. Which exact variant of deodorised paraffin they sell depends on what is available from the chemical wholesalers but is generally Isopar G or KsolT etc... flashpoint around 38.
A lot of us Brisvegans buy the same type of fuel (or d60, flashpoint 60)in 20l drums direct from the suppliers.
An advantage of d60 is that the higher flashpoint removes it from dangerous goods category and it can be cleared to take on planes. (maybe not out of London at the moment.. yr not allowed to take deodorant let alone deodorised fuel!)
I often have a drum to fill labelled bottles at cost price at Moonfests but I would not sell it to someone intending to firebreathe with it as that is a banned activity there.
.....Can't juggle balls but I sure as hell can juggle details....
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Posted:Biodiesal smells nice, but to spin with was harder to light and went out alot easier. The first lot I spun with was actually ok but the next lot was really hard to light and took a while to get out of my poi later as well.
Left funky smoke trails afterwards though. I still have 20l sitting there not used.
Left funky smoke trails afterwards though. I still have 20l sitting there not used.
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