Page: 12
s-p-l-a-t
member
Location: Brisbane, Qld, Australia
Member Since: 8th Mar 2001
Total posts: 383
Posted:hello... playing with fire for a bunch of hours last night and sitting too near a dip jar I believe I inhaled too much low odour kerosene fumes. Thus I feel poisoned this morning... dry mouth, nausea....In fact I feel like I went tripping last night and had a few beers on top of it *blergh!*. (I was and am completely sober.) But then I was noticing strange patterns, hot and cold flushes, irregular heart beat - all the stuff that goes with poisoning I suppose.I know it will chug through my system within 24 hours. I'm just angry they don't have adequate warning labels on the actual fuel. I mean I was sitting within about 5, 6 metres of it when I wasn't twirling and this seems to be enough to have poisoned me. Unlucky yes? It was in a well ventilated area..with the wind and the cold... I also remain mystified with the low white cloud that is created over the kerosene when hot chains or sticks are dipped - what the hell is that stuff and why does it hang around for a few minutes... Anyways.. just thought I'd act as a warning label (perhaps for sensitive people) - because money hungry companies don't have the balls to. ------------------The beautiful thing about learning is that no one can take it away from you.- B.B.King

The beautiful thing about learning is that no one can take it away from you.- B.B.King

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aimeceleste
member
Location: Seattle
Member Since: 10th Jul 2002
Total posts: 19
Posted:as for masks, a wet towel or even one of those masks that cover your nose and mouth wouldn't really work. You're kind of taking a risk being around these chemicals, but one of the ways they gets into your system is through your skin. So unless you don't touch your fuel at all (near impossible, especially when dipping! I always splash a little) and don't breathe the smoke...well, that's not going to happen. I hope this makes sense. I'm very tired.

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DJ Dantana
veteran
Location: Stillwater, Ok. USA
Member Since: 15th Aug 2001
Total posts: 1495
Posted:actually, I think ethanol, and methanol burn preaty darn clean. Ethanol has a weak flame, but at least the molecules are so small that it should theoreticaly form nothing more than CO2 and H2O

CH3-CH2-OH + 3 O2 ===> 3 H2O + 2 CO2 + heat

as to toxicity....I doubt the levels of ethanol fumes are enought to even give you a buzz, much less get you drunk. I would say that ethanol is a safe alternative to using hydrocarbons for fire twirling. sure the flame size sucks, but it will work, I have done it befor.

Mr.MO NYC. As a biologist we end to always look for the except. physicists and chemists are always looking for the rules. sooooooo, it came naturaly for me to look for holes to poke in your "must have carbon hydrogen, and/or oxygen in it to burn" theory. actually there are a great number of things that will burn, but which don't contain C or O or H.

thermite is one. FeO3 + Al +++> BIG HEAT

and there is even 2 H2 + O2 ===> 2 H2O

which contains no carbon, which you stated as a requirement.

I think what you ment to say is that there are no LIQUID fuels that do not contain C and H and/or O

sorry, I couldn't resist....


we eat and we drink and we smoke and we try!

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DJ Dantana
veteran
Location: Stillwater, Ok. USA
Member Since: 15th Aug 2001
Total posts: 1495
Posted:sorry, forgot to balance the thermite equation....

voluntier?


we eat and we drink and we smoke and we try!

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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:Sorry dude,

You're wrong.

In order to undergo a combustion reaction a compound must combine with oxygen and form CO2 and H2O. Hydrogen is simply a synthesis reaction. I naturally assumed that most people wouldn't be using compressed liquid hydrogen as a fuel in firespinning.

Your thermite example is just a highly exothermic single displacement oxidation reaction, not combustion.

By strict scientific guidelines, metals don't "combust", they oxidize. That's why you can't put metal fires out with water (or hydrogen explosions).

I was careful in my wording while still attempting to explain it to laymen.

My point was simply to state that all liquid fuels used in firespinning were hydrocarbons. And they are. As are many compounds that are pretty harmless.

We, as fire spinners, use the word "burn" for what we do when we are actually combusting things.

ANYONE dipping a wick into a liquid (ANY DAMN LIQUID ON EARTH) and then lighting it on fire is using a HYDROCARBON. It is a combustion reaction. Period. No exceptions.

The only people who are not using combustion reactions are those crackheads twirling flares but they are oxidizing solid metals, not combusting fuels.

Oh and:
Fe2O3 + 2 Al ==> Al2O3 + 2 Fe

Also, for the love of friggin God. Ethanol IS a hydrocarbon. So it can't be a safe alternative TO hydrocarbons because it IS a hydrocarbon.

I wasn't going to get into all of that, but your attempt in "looking for holes" made me backpedal.

Recap:
1) By definition... Combustion = Hydrocarbon Fuel + Oxygen ==> Water Vapor + Carbon Dioxide

2) If it's a liquid, on earth, and it burns, it's a hydrocarbon.

3) Only hydrocarbons combust. If it's not a hydrocarbon, it's not combusting. If it's not a combustion reaction, it's not a hydrocarbon.

I've got room for one more in my first period if you want to sit in.


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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arashi
arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx
Member Since: 21st Mar 2002
Total posts: 2363
Posted:i've said it once, i've said it a thousand times. after a few years of constant fire dancing, many, not all, but many of you will start to notice the effects on your health of the fumes and toxicity of the fuels. doing aerobic exercise in a toxin filled airspace is not good. guess what, you are huffing fumes and doing repetitive motions, all those fumes are going right into your muscles and joints along with the oxygen. it is my personal belief and teaching that anyone who does this long term as a serious hobby or professional should think about lighting up only when necessary. lighting up when pregnant? are you ? ever light up during the day, and watched the fumes? did you know that if you put nail polish on your finger, within minutes, it shows up on a hair test? the skin is not some plastic armor, it's a permeable breathing organ as well as organ of protection. example: naptha, an extremely toxic chemical found in many fuels, (and what i useto stick in my mouth and on my tongue to fire eat ) will go right on in through your mucous membranes and straight into your blood. i light up for shows, and to practice new moves to make sure there are no problems with the flame. that's it.
but this is not to make you paranoid, just to make you more cautious. i _love_ fire and am around it every day. i just don't do it recklessly, and i don't huff fumes if i don't have to.


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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arashi
arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx
Member Since: 21st Mar 2002
Total posts: 2363
Posted:and on a technical note i have found that in cold weather fuel fumes are far more prone to stay on the ground and blanket an area, and most of the time the fire spinners won't notice the fumes because they have fuel all over them anyway. (THIS IS WHY IT IS GOOD to have a dedicated water person when possible who is not spinning.) especially notable is coleman which will create an EXPLOSIVE blanket. explosive blanket bad.

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:Hey keep in mind this topic's been dead for a few years. Finn's kid is like 16 or something by now.

Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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arashi
arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx
Member Since: 21st Mar 2002
Total posts: 2363
Posted:well i gues i'm just peeing into the wind here.

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:quote:Originally posted by arashi:
especially notable is coleman which will create an EXPLOSIVE blanket.oh go on let me play - i'll leave my explosive blanket at home this time.

props to mr potato head for using the search function proper like.

try this mask - the blurb says it filters hydrocarbons (and it looks cool too).
then there's this mask (the techno gold one) which is well expensive and does exactly the same thing...

it seems what we want in a mask above anything else is an 'activated charcoal cloth filter' as they seem to absorb hydrocarbons...

any opinions on these nyc?


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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arashi
arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx
Member Since: 21st Mar 2002
Total posts: 2363
Posted:well, _I_ simply won't wear them until they come out with a blue that closer matches my eye color *wisps away*

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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Glåss
Glåss

The Ministry of Manipulation
Location: Bristol
Member Since: 8th Nov 2001
Total posts: 2523
Posted:err.
And so far you're all talking pure fuels.
which they aint.
The real nasties will be down their in the contaminants. the 0.01% of shits on the fuel.

and medical effects of products of incomplete combustion CO, NO?, ???

Dom, NYC what can you tell me about these??....


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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:Well I certainly know nothing about gas masks, though they look kinky in that autoerotic asphixiation kinda way.

As for incomplete combustion, that's certainly THE important fact. If everything combusted cleanly we'd be left with harmless CO2 and water. When a wick burns in daylight you can clearly see how much black smoke is coming off of it. That contains a wide variety of carbon combounds. It's why we use catalytic converters on cars. Maybe we should start putting mufflers on poi wicks to limit toxic fumes.

The problem is the mechanism for how it burns greatly affects how cleanly it will burn. How the oxygen is mixing with the fuel upon combustion affects how cleanly it will burn. Different wick designs, speed of swinging, wind, humidity and every other factor under the sun will contribute to how completely the combustion takes place.

It is true that incomplete combustion is THE issue. As well as impure fuels.

Keep in mind that every fuel we use, by definition, is a cocktail of chemicals. Kero, whitegas, lamp oil, etc... is a mixture of different sized hydrocarbons. Different companies, distillation procedures, etc affect what specific chemicals are in each.

Even if you were spinning pure ethanol, it's not 100% pure. I don't know what else is in it. And once you're incompletely combusting the fuel it gets even more complicated because you're making new chemicals.

I think the moral of the story is:
Limit the time you spin fire.

It's not good for you and minimizing any unnecessary exposure is certainly going to be better for your health.

I also did want to chime in that this exposure to fuels is, in my opinion, THE major long term health issue. There are other concerns as well such as getting fuel on your hands or breathing the vapors even BEFORE you light it.


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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James_Hillyer
Member
Location: Sydney, Australia
Member Since: 18th Jun 2004
Total posts: 16
Posted:Yeah I've made a stupid mistake 2 nights ago. I placed my poi in my room and went to sleep (was not thinking anywhere near straight). Woke up 9 hrs later, had a temporary loss of sight (go for a few seconds then come back, every 10mins or so), partially burnt throat (coughed up some blood too), sick, migraine, general dizziness. Point of this, don't place your POI anywhere NEAR you once your finished, or you could end up like me smile

a) Those who can, Do It.
b) Those who know, Post It.
c) Those who can't, Read It.
d) Those with ego's, Argue It.

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Bird
Bird

now available in "advanced"
Location: Cornwall
Member Since: 25th Aug 2003
Total posts: 6086
Posted:I too this weekend have had a bad experience from inhaling too much parrafin fumes!

I will be buying a mask tomorrow for next time I have a big spin planned!


My state of mind is not yours to define!

There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."

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Page: 12

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