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Posted: just heard today that a friend of mine, a previous student director, lost his father in the crash with the pentagon.I'm telling you, those terrorists are fighting machines, they don't care, they don't ever think about you.
s-p-l-a-tmember 383 posts Location: Brisbane, Qld, Australia
Posted: Actually Draevon ..my housemates and I were discussing this too ... its too exact a date to be a coincedence eh? Someone made a point also about the mass amounts of boat people...and justhow 'easy' it is to come ashore. Australia is about as tight with security as my house is. (and Australia doesn't have a massive guard dog)
The beautiful thing about learning is that no one can take it away from you.- B.B.King
Posted: Forgive me all the long copies of articles but...Whipping Boy is on a truck board and one of them is a fire fighter in NYC. The outpouring of love for him there was astounding. Since I know a couple firemen who are still MIA (I am trying to harbour hope here, so I will leave it at missing) I am putting this up. The impact of this was astounding on me, I edited it to keep out some of the local gathering info."They are trained to rush toward disasters, even as others are running away, and so death, in the minds of many New York City firefighters, is a regrettable, but at times unavoidable, part of their difficult job. But this? Ladder Company 132 and Ladder Company 105 and Engine Company 33 are missing in action. So are all five of the elite Rescue Companies that serve the city. So are all the members of 30 other fire companies that responded to the terrorist attack at the World Trade Center and found themselves caught in the collapse of buildings as they headed up stairwells and through hallways to rescue people. A total of 350 firefighters, nearly 30 times the number ever lost before by the department in a single event, is missing or dead, officials said yesterday. Five of the department's most senior officials, including the chief who specialized in directing rescues from collapses of this sort, are also missing or dead, as are a dozen battalion chiefs. At least 10 fire trucks were buried in the rubble. The wives of some of the missing firefighters have appeared at firehouse doors to see if anyone can help find their husbands. "I keep looking at the list of people that are missing," Fire Commissioner Thomas Von Essen said at the scene. "I don't want to talk about all the names. Just a phenomenal group of people. The best of the department. The best Rescue guys are missing. The Squad guys are missing. Terrific units all around here. It's just phenomenal. It's just unbelievable to me. I don't know." The physical and emotional toll on the Fire Department could be seen yesterday in the strain on Mr. Von Essen's face, in the halting speech of firefighters as they discussed dead colleagues and in the steps the department was taking to ensure that the injured agency, with 11,500 uniformed firefighters, would still be able to provide fire protection for the rest of the city. Shaken firefighters and officers spent much of the day searching through the rubble for lost colleagues, mourning and rearranging responsibilities as they attempted to deal with the loss of so many senior people. The work served an important purpose even if very few people were found to have survived, officials said, because it helped some of the firefighters move past the horrors of the previous day, when they watched so many get hurt and were then prevented by unstable buildings from embarking on a vigorous search. "The fireman are glad to be in there digging," said Francis X. Gribbon, a department spokesman. "They were anxious to go." Officials have estimated that as many as 400 firefighters were at the scene, including several hundred inside the buildings, when the first of the towers fell around 10 a.m. Some have stories of fortunate escapes just before the buildings collapsed. But far more prevalent are disturbing accounts, such as the death of a department chaplain, the Rev. Mychal Judge, who was giving the last rites to a firefighter who had been injured by a falling body when both were swallowed by cascading rubble. One of those feared lost in the debris was Capt. Timothy Stackpole, who had returned to full duty several months ago after recovering from severe burns he suffered in a fire in 1998. He was off duty when he heard about the terrorist attack but had gone to the Trade Center to help, officials said. At Engine Company 1 in Manhattan, firefighters recalled how they got out of the north tower when they were told the south tower had just collapsed. Their lieutenant, Andy Desperito, told them to get out, while he stopped to help someone. Several minutes later, they were on the street, when the north tower fell. Lieutenant Desperito's body was recovered later in the day. Among those caught in the second collapse were three of the department's most senior officials, William Feehan, the first deputy commissioner, Peter Ganci, the chief of department, and Raymond Downey, the chief of special operations, who were directing rescue operations from a command post near Vesey and West Streets. Chief Downey is still missing, as are Chiefs Gerard Barbara and Donald Burns, two of the department's highest-ranking supervisors. The bodies of Commissioner Feehan and Chief Ganci have been recovered. Mr. Von Essen, after recounting these losses and others on Tuesday night, said, "The Fire Department will recover, but I don't know how." On Long Island, William McLaughlin, a former secretary of the Uniformed Firefighters Association, said: "I have heard that some people are dead. But how do you say that if they are still listed as missing. So you just say: `Keep praying. He's a big guy. Maybe he is in there somewhere.' " Despite the acts of concern, many firefighters still seemed to be reeling from the magnitude of their losses. Firefighter Paul Mendoza said his unit, Rescue Company 4, in Queens, had just gotten over the deaths of two men in a fire on Father's Day. Now everyone from the unit who had worked Tuesday morning was missing or dead. "We may never get over this," he said.
Pele Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir "Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall "And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK
Posted: I just found out that my cousin, Kurt, went into one of the WTC towers just befor they got hit. He is alive though...close one. He had to take a ferry to Jersey and is still stuck a long, long way from home.And if any of the terrrorists are reading this I would like to invite them out for a cup of tea. Afterwards I would like to introduce them to a freind of mine, I call her my baby, but some of you might know her by her maiden name...AK-47"walk softly and carry a big clip" -Rosevelt?, -Rough Riders???, no... -Daniel"those who fail to remember the past are doomed to repeat it" -Santeana"for the first time in history a civilized nation has complete gun registration. It will make our streets safer and our police more efficient" -Adolf Hitler
Posted: they found my cousins body... cant wait to go now. two wrongs do not make a right, but definately an eye for an eye. i am on the first list to deploy out of here. i like to consider you all as my friends, i hope to talk to you afterwards. stay happy and keep spinning and smiling for me...
Posted: by the way, please do not take my post as close minded and that all i want to do now is kill kill kill. even though that is what i was trained for, that is not my motivation. my motivation is my 10 year old brother. may he live a long and glorious peaceful life. i would do anything to protect and ensure that long healthy life. his life means more to me than my own...
Posted: This thread has become truly amazing, the show of statistics, emotion and clear objective perspectives for both sides of the story, (considering the USA's foriegn policy has not been sqeaky clean in the past and to have that pointed out by Americans) are becomeing an inspiration to me! ** stuned into silence and admiration** for all the people on this board.If Afganistan gets the shit bombed out of it, half of the heroin trade will dissapear.One good aspect of mass destruction in the middle east?[This message has been edited by JeStEr (edited 14 September 2001).]
Trying to play the Akashic records, but my turntables not compatible.
Posted: Are you one of those people who always looks on the bright side Jeser? Good on you...we can use it! Non-Https Image Link Pozee, my blessings are for you. There has been a request that tonite at 7pm (no matter what time zone) that people light candles on their doorsteps in memorium. This isn't for national pride, it is for remembering, and hope and strength. I will light one especially for you and your cousin pozee.My love to you and my strongest hopes that you will stay with us a long,long while.That and when you do get the chance, think not only of your younger brother but of the children you might one day have. I have been trying to explain this to my 6 year old. It's hard because I don't fully understand it and the last thing I want is for him to grow up in a policed state governed by fear.As always, my best and brightest.------------------Pele Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir...https://www.pyromorph.com
Pele Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir "Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall "And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK
Posted: Ok, Hopefully, this is going to be my last post on the subject, because I'm getting sick of all of it. If you think that everyone in the U.S.A is pisssed off now just wait till they finally start the funeral processions in NY for OVER 200 firefighters. As an average in the U.S.A we lose 100 fire fighters annually. So this tragic Accident is 4 TIMES the national average in 1 DAY.I remember here in Massachusetts we lost 4 fire fighters in one day in Worchester and this town LOST it's mind. We had an outpouring of police and firefighters from all over the country show up to pay respects. Now Imagine if you will the procession for almost 400 fire fighters and police. Totally ignoring the 5000+ civilians that are to be buried. I was also wondering from people in other countries have you noticed how far and how fast the authorities are finding people linked to these terrorists? My biggest fear is that since the USA has decided to go after every terrorist and every person/country that supports them that would mean going after IRAN, Iraq, Afghanistan and many Palestinian organizations. The other scary thought is what if this turns out to be just what the terrorists wanted. Nothing vindicates to a fanatic he/she was right than the USA going after them and killing "Loved ones". As for the numbers games people are giving the terrorists way to much credit. I don't think that they were that deep into their thinking. My final thought is this, as for justice their can be none, because no punishment fits what these people did for a crime. If we did do something that was even close to what they did to us that also would be a travesty. If you want a punishment for these people put them in a cell with no outside view and line the walls of their cells with pictures of the faces of the people that they killed.I guess in a situation like this NO ONE wins because we have already lost too much.------------------Blessings to all, Peter "There is a rhythm that unites us with the natural world. The more we learnto feel that rhythm and get it into the mainstream of our lives, thestronger can be our spirit."--- Robert Rodale
Blessings to all, Peter When you find yourself in the company of a halfling and an ill-tempered Dragon, remember, you do not have to outrun the Dragon ...you just have to outrun the halfling.
Posted: Hi Kids, I got this on one of my lists...thought it was pertinent..------------A sobering essay forwarded by a UC Berkeley professor:Dear Friends,The following was sent to me by my friend Tamim Ansary. Tamim is an Afghani-American writer. He is also one of the most brilliant people I know in this life. When he writes, I read. When he talks, I listen. Here is his take on Afghanistan and the whole mess we are in.-Gary T.Dear Gary and whoever else is on this email thread:I've been hearing a lot of talk about "bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone Age." Ronn Owens, on KGO Talk Radio today, allowed that this would mean killing innocent people, people who had nothing to do with this atrocity, but "we're at war, we have to accept collateral damage. What else can we do?" Minutes later I heard some TV pundit discussing whether we "have the belly to do what must be done."And I thought about the issues being raised especially hard because I am from Afghanistan, and even though I've lived herefor 35 years I've never lost track of what's going on there. So I want to tell anyone whowill listen how it all looks from where I'm standing. I speak as one who hates the Taliban and Osama Bin Laden. There is no doubt in my mind that these people were responsible for the atrocity in New York. I agree that something must be done about those monsters. But the Taliban and Ben Laden are not Afghanistan. They're not even the government of Afghanistan. The Taliban are a cult of ignorant psychotics who took over Afghanistan in 1997. Bin Laden is a politicalcriminal with a plan. When you think Taliban, think Nazis. When you think Bin Laden, think Hitler. And when you think "the people of Afghanistan" think "the Jews in the concentration camps." It's not only that the Afghan people had nothing to do withthis atrocity. They were the first victims of the perpetrators. They would exult if someone would come in there, take out the Taliban and clear out the rats nest of international thugs holed up in their country. Some say, why don't the Afghans rise up and overthrow the Taliban? The answer is, they're starved, exhausted, hurt, incapacitated, suffering. A few years ago, the United Nations estimated that there are 500,000 disabled orphans in Afghanistan--a country with no economy, no food.There are millions of widows. And the Taliban has been burying these widows alive in mass graves. The soil is littered with land mines, the farms were all destroyed by the Soviets. These are a few of the reasons why the Afghan people have not overthrown the Taliban. We come now to the question of bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone Age. Trouble is, that's been done. The Soviets took care of it already.Make the Afghans suffer? They're already suffering. Level their houses? Done. Turn their schools into piles of rubble? Done. Eradicate their hospitals? Done. Destroy their infrastructure? Cut them off from medicine and health care? Too late. Someone already did all that. New bombs would only stir the rubble of earlier bombs. Would they at least get the Taliban? Not likely. In today's Afghanistan, only the Taliban eat, only they have the means to move around. They'd slip awayand hide. Maybe the bombs would get some of those disabled orphans, they don't move too fast, they don't even have wheelchairs. But flying over Kabul and dropping bombs wouldn't really be a strike against the criminals who did this horrific thing. Actually it would only be making common cause with the Taliban--by raping once again the people they've been raping all this time So what else is there? What can be done, then? Let me now speak with true fear and trembling. The only way to get Bin Laden is to go in there with ground troops. When people speak of "having the belly to do whatneeds to be done" they're thinking in terms of having the belly to kill as many as needed. Having the belly to overcome any moral qualms about killing innocent people. Let's pull our heads out of the sand. What'sactually on the table is Americans dying. And not just because some Americans would die fighting their way through Afghanistan to Bin Laden's hideout. It's much bigger than that folks. Because to get any troops to Afghanistan, we'd have to go through Pakistan. Would they let us? Not likely. The conquest of Pakistan would have to be first. Will other Muslim nations just stand by? You see where I'm going. We're flirting with a world war between Islam and the West.And guess what: that's Bin Laden's program. That's exactly what he wants. That's why he did this. Read his speeches and statements. It's all right there. He really believes Islam would beat the west. It might seem ridiculous, but he figures if he can polarizethe world into Islam and the West, he's got a billion soldiers. If the west wreaks aholocaust in those lands, that's a billion people with nothing left to lose, that's even better from Bin Laden's point of view. He's probably wrong, in the end the west would win, whatever that would mean, but thewar would last for years and millions would die, not just theirs but ours. Who has the belly for that? Bin Laden does.Anyone else?Tamim Ansary----------I'd like to point out that I have seen some footage of interviews with terrorist islamic fanatics, and some say that they are happy to die, because it is heroic and they will be rewarded in heaven..now I'm not a professor of middle eastern religion, so I dont know if this is a commonly held belief or not, but it certainly gives rise to scary thoughts...I hear the anti-taliban rebel leader has been assasinated...ugh...Josh
Posted: gl pozeethey haven't activated my brother yet...I hope they never do
plastikgirlmember 41 posts Location: Curitiba, PR, Brazil
Posted: I cant stop cryingI've been to NYC twice and can say I left part of my heart there...Although I live far away and my country has nothing to do with this...our president has assured president Bush that if he needs, he'll Brazilian support. Any kinds of support.I think the terrorists (being Osama Bin Laden or anyone else) are blinded by fanaticism. They just dont care. They see America and capitalism as Satan. They say all Eastern women are prostitutes and send their sons to America to "have some fun" with them. I read a book by a Saudi princess who said things that I cant even think about now.Now I only want to fly to NYC, lay down in the middle of 5th avenue and hug every American I see.This is going to change the world. We all have to be prepared for it. Whether is WWIII or not, things will change. So people, keep your hearts and minds open. Help if you can.I support the retaliation. Because if the terrorists see that they can do whatever they want because no one will punish them, they will do it again and again. That's why crime rates are so high on my country. Criminals dont get punished. So, punish them. Kill the terrorists to show the world that this WONT EVER BE FORGIVEN!My tears are for you American people. We all from South America support you and share your grief.------------------"Lady bug lady bug, fly away home. Your house is on fire, and your children will burn! Ashes, ashes, all fall down!![This message has been edited by plastikgirl (edited 16 September 2001).]
Lady bug lady bug, fly away home. Your house is on fire, and your children will burn! Ashes, ashes, all fall down!!
Posted: Be carefull Pozee, I'll be thinking about you, and all the other people I know who are being called up. My grandfather gave me some advise one time. He told me that if there are bullets flying.... duck behind/below something bullet proof...He survived 3 1/2 years on a three man 50BMG crew, frontlines....oh yea...and grenades can be realy usefull....but then so can big missles... and radios (can you say air strike?) More messed up news, my little sister's muslim neighbors were some of the terrorists that hit the pentagon (she lives near San Diego). When she saw the pictures on TV...she recognized them. The FBI found a flight simulator in the apartment, go figure. She says she had to wait for them to cross the street in front of her a lot (as they went to the mosque across the street several times a day) She said that if she would have know what they were going to do she would have run them over and saved some lives. She is moving to a different apartment....I also want to let the bad guys know that we may only have a few million troops, but we have over 50 million gun owners in this country, and most of them have more than one gun. If it comes down to it every male from 14 to 87 (My grandfather) would be out there with his pump shotgun and AK-47, and We will protect our home should any "bad guys" think they can bring the fight here. I know for a fact there are a lot of Americans that would love a chance to get off some shots in the right direction... Non-Https Image Link
Posted: I don't like all this talk of war. War is a bad thing. War is HELL. Unfortunatly we lost the ability to make our own desisions the second that last plane hit. We are now stuck on a one way path. We do not have a choice. Do you know what the American people would do if Bush did NOT ask for war? Hell, the people would probly rise up...Do you know what would happen if these criminals were allowed to go on killing? We have no options, this is going to happen and we do not truely know what the final outcome will be...only God knows. Once again violence has begot violence which will beget violence ad infinitum. Will this ever end?This could be the begining of the end... Non-Https Image Link
we eat and we drink and we smoke and we try!
CassandraFroggie ... Ribbit !!! 4,224 posts Location: Back in Paris... for now !
Posted: Many things were said in this thread and I am more moved than I even thought. I share this pain, beleive me...I know it is not the right time to say it and I know you have the right to flame me for saying this being rather cosy in Paris, but please remember that there is a difference between arabs and muslims and between muslims and extremists/terrorists.I am saying this because I fear in my country and in the rest of the world that racism will raise. I cannot say that those responsible from near or far for the attack and the hatred against non muslims should be tracked down untill the last one, but I happen to have arab friends who by no means subscribe to this hate and I would be devastated if they had to pay for the monsters we are talking about.keeping a cold mind at this time is not easy, impossible maybe, but I am doing my best to not sink into complete anger and global hate, hope you all will do that too.shine on inside this darknessCassandra
"I want brown bread... no, that is diesel oil..." "So I was raised in Europe, where History comes from ..." "NON !!! La Plume de mon oncle n est pas Bingibangibungi !!!"
Non-Https Image Link darn, what is wrong with the world lately? they way i see it, this is a big azzz awakening to everyone in the world, like ravers unite, now everyone will unite, and all of us will go bomb those terrorist...i lost a friend of mine, and bin laden will get mah chopsticks soo far up his butt, that there will be no tommorrow for him... Non-Https Image Link