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Page: 1234
TheWibbler
GOLD Member since Apr 2003

old hand
Location: New Zealand

Total posts: 920
Posted:The other day I was spinning '3bt butterfly weave' AKA 'Split-time double thread-the-needle' and I suddenly realised that the true name of this move is

Plural Zee Alpha

Absolutely no idea why, but I am trying to rename moves by breaking down the patterns in a more logical mannor, any ideas?


Spherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.

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Glåss
DIAMOND Member since Nov 2001

Glåss

The Ministry of Manipulation
Location: Bristol, United Kingdom

Total posts: 2523
Posted:plural zee plus alpha


Dude you got some great ideas going on there
come and visit claphamsome time, just 45 minutes on a train, and we'll sort it all out.


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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
Location: Apparently lost in my ego, USA

Total posts: 1269
Posted:quote:Originally posted by arashi:
god help us all- now coleman has someone to really nerd out with. soon the londoners will all be walking around with their own secret handshakes and certain color outfits for spinning styles and they will all be speaking neo-grecan gobbledygook yay... my plane discussion, now ppp's plur alpha zeta , next thing you know someone is gonna bust out the latin and we'll all be screwed...

poi will become something you need a ph.d in math, physics, and dance, with a minor in latin and greek..


:smoke:


More useless information courtesy of Rev...
Confusing the masses, one post at a time...
"Obviously, you're not a golfer.."- The Dude
"Buy the ticket... Take the ride..." -Raoul Duke
"FEMA has never done catastrophe planning..."-Michael Brown

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:Does the Pauli Exclusion Principle which governs quantum physics of electrons hold true in PZA?

It says that no two electrons can be in the exact same orbital plane with the exact same quantum spin.

What about the Heisenburg Uncertainty Principle? "The more we know the exact position of a poi, the less we know it's speed and direction?"

If we shift to a quantum explanation and think of poi as merely having a PROBABILITY of being in a certain plane I think we can do some great things...

Don't worry, I think that I can unify it all using string theory.

I just need a stick of gum, a clothes pin, and some powdered milk... no wait, that's MacGuyver.


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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Glåss
DIAMOND Member since Nov 2001

Glåss

The Ministry of Manipulation
Location: Bristol, United Kingdom

Total posts: 2523
Posted:
String theory


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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kin...

Total posts: 7330
Posted:yay! qm in the morning

the pauli exclusion principle holds everywhere, all the time for all particles in a system - i've tried having two poi in the same state at the same time and it definitely does not work.
they hit each other. and then they hit me.
so pauli holds.

the uncertainty principle is negligible unless you spin at a fraction of the speed of light; and yes, i know you can do the weave really fast nyc but that takes the piss, even for you...

and ya certainly don't need string theory to unify all that - both statements arise from quantum mechanics and agree perfectly with each other.

hold on...

damn.
this is a geek trap isn't it.

shoulda seen that one coming...

you're all playing a dangerous game you know - the power of geeks is not to be messed with.
just look at what we did to glass...
in a mere 14 posts we dragged his opinion from "entirely confusing totally pointless" to a somewhat more agreeable "some great ideas going on"

conclusion "string theory is useless when your poi are made of socks".


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Dom
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK

Total posts: 3009
Posted:The Pauli Exclusion Principle just isn't complex enough to be applied to poi. And obviously the Heisenburg Uncertainty Principle would have to be rethought to apply to quantum particles on a leash.

I think I'm with PPP on this one. A mathenatical notation could indeed open up more moves than we can imagine - although many would just be small variations on a theme.

Look a siteswap - as it's just a bunch of numbers so can be placed in a computer program that'll churn out possible combinations using simple logic, creating loads ot moves that might otherwise have been undiscovered.

However siteswap doesn't have references to planes or a coefficient of hand-crossed-overed-ness. Mills Mess is 3, as is the simple cascade. So there's an argument there that too much detail in a poi notation will clutter it up.

In conclusion it's a great idea, but a balance has to be struck. And I'm not as geeky as Cole and PPP!


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TheWibbler
GOLD Member since Apr 2003

old hand
Location: New Zealand

Total posts: 920
Posted:Siteswap, I never knew what is was called before yesterday, although i've seen it before. My juggling skills aren't really up to much. Too tricky since i've always got a set of poi in my hands

Anywho, since Coleman has been very supportive about PZA i spent most of last night reading up on siteswap and applying some ideas to poi.

The most interesting thing i found out was that 3 different people discovered siteswap at the same time all round the globe.

The other thing which struck me was this:

it said that siteswap was intended to:

1) aid communication of juggling moves
2) enable us to find new moves
3) increase learning
4) through a greater understanding

This is all exactly what we were talking about above.

SO PZA now has a mission statement:

PZA must aid: communication, exploration, learning and understanding


Spherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.

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TheWibbler
GOLD Member since Apr 2003

old hand
Location: New Zealand

Total posts: 920
Posted:I also figured out a couple things last night.

Firstly, that the notation only needs to describe the 'base pattern' of 1 hand AND the relationship between the hands.

ie. for the 3bt weave. the 'base pattern' is:

2 on the backhand,
1 on the forehand

AND the relationship between the two hands is:

Same direction, 180 degrees apart and a 'Phase Shift' of 1.5 beats( i.e the left hand copies what the right hand did one and a half beats ago)


Spherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.

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TheWibbler
GOLD Member since Apr 2003

old hand
Location: New Zealand

Total posts: 920
Posted:I also managed to get a graph of the movement down on paper.

Can you guess what it is yet?

Notice where the 'arms' go overe and under each other.

This graph started off all on one 'ladder' but it was quite confusing, by separating the 'ladders' I was able to indicate over and under states.

Firstly i noticed that this looks very much like a Sine wave.

Then I noticed that if you work from the bottom up - You MUST be spinning forwards, likewise, if you work from the top down, you MUST be spinning backwards. Also imagine you are spinning forwards (up the graph) then turn into a backwards weave - you then work back down the graph. Ad infinitum.

This was the really big thought: If you come out of the weave by turning feet 90 degrees, you can draw this by turning the 'ladder' 90 degrees!! Thereby making wiggley pattern all over a piece of paper.

However, you then need to replace the circles on the graph with triangles pointing in the direction of spin - in this case, up the page.

Other things to note are that you can imagine the two zigzag paths to be 3 dimensional interlocking spirals kinda like a double helix but each spiral spins in opposite directions.

Any mathmaticians out there who know what this 3d solid is called??

Hmm, Never confuse obfuscation for nonsensical gibberish


Spherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.

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TheWibbler
GOLD Member since Apr 2003

old hand
Location: New Zealand

Total posts: 920
Posted:I am absolutely certain that we are getting very close to a hybrid notation for poi.

I am also certain that i am not the only one thinking about it.

I reckon we'll have it cracked by the end of the year.


Spherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.

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arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2364
Posted:all right the jig is up! i figured it out... this poipoipoi doesn't exist, he's a figment of coleman's imagination. that vid of poipoipoi is just some random guy that coleman taught to do one move so we'd fall for this trick.
HE'S MESSING WITH YOUR MINDS!!!!


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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TheWibbler
GOLD Member since Apr 2003

old hand
Location: New Zealand

Total posts: 920
Posted:How'd you know that Arashi, you're absolutely right, PoiPoiPoi is just a figment of someone elses imagination. Go to the top of the class

Spherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.

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arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2364
Posted:only if i get to wear a "little lord fauntleroy" outfit and cap and breeches and i can lick on a big rainbow sucker

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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TheWibbler
GOLD Member since Apr 2003

old hand
Location: New Zealand

Total posts: 920
Posted:Anywho, I've uploaded a slightly neater verion of a 3 bt weave in diagramatic form

Diagramatic Notation

You'll have to look back at some old post to see why I love it so much...


Spherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.

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TheWibbler
GOLD Member since Apr 2003

old hand
Location: New Zealand

Total posts: 920
Posted:Please tell me Arashi,

What is it that you don't like about that diagramatic notation?

BTW, i'm sure this must have been done before, i ain't staking claim to it.


Spherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.

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TheWibbler
GOLD Member since Apr 2003

old hand
Location: New Zealand

Total posts: 920
Posted:Just uploaded another video

'split time outwards 180 release with 360 tap back'


Spherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.

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Mot


addict
Location: Netherlands

Total posts: 666
Posted:Hmm sounds interesting man, very curious. A few questions though.

Firstly why??? Why go through all the hassle of trying to change the names, the only reason for names is that we can talk to others about theses moves, why suddenly re-write the language?

You say that the names are based on logic. But immeadiatly flaws arise that make them no more logical than the exsisting names :

Plural - suggests that there are more than one, not just two. You could better use terms like "mono" and "stereo" Mono being both channels the same, Left and right doing the same thing. Stereo being different signals left and right, but also this immeadiatly has flaws.

Zee plane - As in X Y and Z plane??? Your gonna have to elabirate on this too I'm afraid. Normal spinning beside your body, being X plane,then a butterfly is surely Y plane? And how are you gonna explain moves that occour between these planes?

Alpha - Yeah this is a cool way of describing it, but unfortuantly just a cool co-incedence. What will you use to describe a 2bt or a 4bt or more???

Ok I'm not trying to shoot you down, I am genuinely interested, and I do agree that the system at the moment is full of holes. But your gonna have to come with a few more answers to strenghten your arguement.
Curiously waiting,
Mot.


Come forth and thou shalt win enternal happiness. but he came fifth so he won an electric toatser.

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Mot


addict
Location: Netherlands

Total posts: 666
Posted:Cool vids BTW, your style is kicking!!!

Come forth and thou shalt win enternal happiness. but he came fifth so he won an electric toatser.

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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
Location: Apparently lost in my ego, USA

Total posts: 1269
Posted:quote:Originally posted by coleman:
hold on...

damn.
this is a geek trap isn't it.

shoulda seen that one coming...

LOL....

I told you guys... Math and physics... add dance for flavor and style... and latin to name it all, and we have a college course..

only question is: what department does it fall under?


More useless information courtesy of Rev...
Confusing the masses, one post at a time...
"Obviously, you're not a golfer.."- The Dude
"Buy the ticket... Take the ride..." -Raoul Duke
"FEMA has never done catastrophe planning..."-Michael Brown

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arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2364
Posted:man i got nothing wrong with your notation, nothing! haven't had time to really check out what you're doing, and grok your breakdown, but i see the concepts and they are pretty on. i'm just f@ckin around! i like the way you think...

as you so aptly put it, this concept of mathematical breakdown has been done before. as i said i even done it maaaself, everybody does it at a certain level, just to keep track of it all. so that makes you the latest addition to a family of nerds who spend way too much time doing this, when we should be out running in the sunshine, clinbing trees, and talking to real live GIRLS and it is my elected or perhaps self appointed duty to make sure we make crazy with each other as much as possible. just tryin to keep things silly around here, you know. cause after all you should see that you fit in, welcome to nerdville
(erm, does that make sense? i'm trying to be ironic )

and one day soon you will all see i am a waaaaaay bigger nerd than any of you. hunches over like eeygore, looks up and shakes his fist in the air


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
Location: Apparently lost in my ego, USA

Total posts: 1269
Posted:quote:Originally posted by arashi:
and talking to real live GIRLS hey... not all of us nerds ignore the girlies.. I find that the better I get a poi, the easier it is to talk to girls..

then again... I also prefer to just point my girl at a chicky and say 'fetch.' That way I get the girls and get to spin my poi.. muwahahaha..


but seriously... while we are on the subject of proper names for things and all:
A wrap is when it 'wraps' around a body part and recoils or whatever.
A stall is when the poi come to a complete rest, and then goes back the other direction.

What is it when a poi bounces of a body part or whatever?
I ask because a poi-on-poi stall causes each poi to stop and then go back the other way... or at least that's how its worked the 2 times I did it.. but this recoils, like a wrap, but doesn't wrap, just kind abounces off body parts.. sometimes its a limb, like bicep, other times its my hand (palm and fore-hand)... {insert image of Rev pimp-slapping the poi here}

seriously though, because its kinda confusing how to explain to people that you slap poi, without actually slapping..

bad poi, stay on the paper..


More useless information courtesy of Rev...
Confusing the masses, one post at a time...
"Obviously, you're not a golfer.."- The Dude
"Buy the ticket... Take the ride..." -Raoul Duke
"FEMA has never done catastrophe planning..."-Michael Brown

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:I got an even better idea than all new nomenclature.

If someone thinks of a new move, they can set up some kind of device which aborbs and then breaks down the photons reflected off of them into some kind of a binary code. This binary code could be packaged and sent via wires and satellites to the rest of us who would have decoder machines which would then shoot electrons through a large square vacuum tube which would excite a charged screen at the other end. If we stared for long enough at the screen, it might just be able to fool the rods and cones in the back of our retna into beliveing that we are actually 'seeing' you do the move.

We could call this phenomena:
"Internet Videos"

People could "post" new "videos" so that everyone else could "see" them and "learn" the "moves" that way.



Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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bender
GOLD Member since Nov 2001

still can't believe it's not butter
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 6979
Posted:^^^ that makes a strange sense

Laugh Often, Smile Much, Post lolcats Always

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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
Location: Apparently lost in my ego, USA

Total posts: 1269
Posted:*bah* you people and your old indigenous ways... internet videos are so last millenia..
you must succumb to change.. Haven't you read heidegger? technology will rule you... muwahahaha
we are so beyond videos.. we need telepathically induced genetic alteration so you don't even need to learn moves.. they just happen..


More useless information courtesy of Rev...
Confusing the masses, one post at a time...
"Obviously, you're not a golfer.."- The Dude
"Buy the ticket... Take the ride..." -Raoul Duke
"FEMA has never done catastrophe planning..."-Michael Brown

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TheWibbler
GOLD Member since Apr 2003

old hand
Location: New Zealand

Total posts: 920
Posted:Mot:

Ignore the 'words' plual, z, and alpha. These are mearly examples of how the structure might work.

Read back on page 1 of this post about how the structure and planes thing works; I chose X plane as 'corkscrew' plane because 'x' is usually horizontal on a graph. But conventions like this would haev to be decided upon.

There's some more information in the 'Doms Random poi ideas' post.

The 'alpha' part determines what i call the base pattern (explained earlier in post.)

The breakthrough I had with decribing movements was that you only have to describe the base pattern, plane, direction for 1 hand, and then how the other hand moves Relative to the first

Arashi

Just messin. Big respect for your post on the pitfalls of showing people how to do all the moves >> Takes away from the joy of discovery >> makes them forever dependant on someone to show them new stuff.

Gave me a lot of food for thought when i first started writting a book.

However, i've come to realise that whilst we do all know a great deal about Poi, I believe this is just the beginning. I believe that the level i'm at is still only beginner - just a begginer at something far greater that spinning things around in the air.

My spirituality is interwoven with my poi, plural zee alpha came to me whilst staring into 'outward 360 releases' floating in front of my eyes. Whilst i could have ignored it as mindless bunkum - I didn't. I trusted my intuition and came here and tried to explain it with everyone else. Opening myself up to questions from sceptical (and sometime irate) poiple allows me time to gestate the answers and clarify things in my mind.

Rev

quote: What is it when a poi bounces of a body part or whatever? When I do those 'tap backs' ie, throw poi, reverse catch and throw again half a beat later -I have found that you 'tap back' with your arm instead of catch and throw. I practice just with 1 poi in a similar fashion to using devil sticks, back and forth.

I have found that there is a 'sweet spot' on my poi about a fifth of the way down from the handle. When i 'tap back' precisely on the sweet spot, the poi leaps off my hand and rotates really quick. you're right that it doesn't wrap. Must be some kind of Resonance / (super-position for geeks thinking about harmonic waves)

NYC

'If a picture paints a thousand words, then what of the moving image?'

I agree that internet video is an essential learning tool for taking things to the next level. We are very fortunate to live in a time when we can easily share our ideas so easily around the world.

To finalise this notation I shall use an internet forum to discuss what conventions and words are appropriate. I imagine we shall still use words like 'wrap, stall, stop, kick and release.

I will then create a video encyclopaedia so that when you come across a move that you don't understand e.g. plural zee alpha (ignore the actual words) You will be able to click on each word and see a video of its meaning. For one thing, this will mean that we don't have to type out as many sentances to descbribe a 'new' move. We will simply be building on what we already know.

Rev

I learnt most of what i know through the Great Consciousness. However I see nothing wrong with using the artificial 'telepathy' which our society has created to accellerate our learning. I believe that the internet arose from our subconscious knowledge that it is absolutely possible to communicate without words.

Mission statement for hybrid notation
Any new notation must aid:

Communication

Exploration

Learning

&

Understanding


***********************************************

m

***********************************************


Spherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kin...

Total posts: 7330
Posted:quote:Originally posted by arashi:
this poipoipoi doesn't exist, he's a figment of coleman's imagination. poipoipoi is far more inventive than my imagiation has ever come close to.
for example, i never would have have come up with the idea of bells in my bouncing poi

mind you poipoipoi, i have always wondered about whether your poi might leave you open to more rabid dog attacks in the park?

twisted juggler however is a figment of my imagination. and it keeps nagging me to buy albatrosses...


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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TheWibbler
GOLD Member since Apr 2003

old hand
Location: New Zealand

Total posts: 920
Posted:I've hod those same dog toy poi for years (touch wood) I can't imagine how many times they have spun round my body - they just know what to do.

A word of warning about dog poi though. They spray them with specially doggy hormones!!



Wise man say to me,
'when in park with dog toy poi,
watch for jack russell'.

(Hmmm, I love the smell of Haiku in the morning )


Spherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.

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Dom
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK

Total posts: 3009
Posted:PPP - maybe change the thread title?

"To make a really good notational system you have to decide what to leave out."

I'm liking this statement. I actually woke up this morning thinking about this (You b*stards! I want Alyson Hannigan back!). I think many of the needs system with the aim of communication and understanding are in conflict with a system that promotes exploration.

I'm not an expert on siteswp but my theory is that siteswap helps creativity in juggling by leaving so much to the creativity of the juggler. The cascade is 333 (or simply 3), as is the windmill, Mill's Mess, Rubenstein's Revenge, etc... Standard siteswap does not give you information on hand position of if you're throwing archs or columns. Simple logic can produce a wealth of siteswap patterns that won't leave you with one hand throwing 6 balls at one time or whatever, but the juggler adds creativity.

So if we start on a siteswap for poi - poiswap - let's work from some first principles.
Lets number some basic planes and spinning zones:
1 - wheel plane
2 - wall plane
3 - horizontal plane
4 - buzzsaw zone

Note: I'm seeing the buzzsaw spinning zone as different to the wheel plane as I do believe that whilst it's a vertical plane it is fundimentally different to 1.

So the "weave" becomes 111 (just describing one hand) - each hand does three circles in the wheel plane. There is no description of which side the poi are on, direction, hand position, timing, etc... as all this leaves the spinner open to creativity. So this is the weave, side reels, turns, butterfly weave, parallel weave, btb weave, etc...

Note: Timinig and direction - do we really need to specify this in the notation as most moves can be done in all timings and both directions?

Start randomly combining these numbers and give them a try: 2, 141, 1111111, 22222

This could be expanded to cover two hands, which gives more possibilities. E.g.

R: 111
L: 111

R: 444
L: 111

R: 2
L: 1

R: 1
L: 3

Now, as siteswap deals with heights it inherrently also specifies the timing of throws - or to adopt a musical term - the beat of the throws. As in poi we're currently mixing beats with circles lets ditch this and go with Klaus and adopt beats as what they are - measures of time.

Try this:
R: 11
L: 1
It's the right poi spinning twice as fast as the left. Immediately the differentiation between beat and circles is clear. A beat is the 11/1 cycle, and with R doing 2 circles, and L 1.

An old favourite: (note: _ added for spacing as it's all got messed up when rendered in a browser)
R: 22|2_|
L: 2_|22|
Now I'm clarifying beats with the pipe symbol.

One thing I'm not sure about doing is specifying hand position. As I've said it's open to the spinner to apply hand position, but for communication maybe a notation of r,l,f,b could be used, but where does this leave the 45 degree planes of my spinning hexagon? Maybe we should assign planes as relating to a mathematical 3D shape? Anyway, for communication here's the above move in one specific permutation:
R: 2b,2b|2f___|
L: 2f___|2b,2b|

The weave
R: 1r | 1l | 1l
L: 1l | 1l | 1r
split or same time

Timing info doesn't need to be detailed for specific movements of this sequence. However what about one of glass's moves: 2(split) 2(same) done with a excessive hand move to alter timing of each poi in turn.

Some more examples:
Both: 2b 2f 2f 2b 2f

R: 1r | release, tapback, catch | 1r
L: 1l | 1l _________________ | 1l

R: 1r | pull catch, throw | 1l | 1l
L: 1l | 1l ___________ | 1r | 1r

Still no hand position so this is up to the spinner to create. I think there are just too many hand positions, but maybe a coefficitent of hand-crossed-over-ness can be incorporated. This is where Drew's scribbled back of envolope babbligns come in.

So maybe:
Weave: (111) - the hand-crossed over co-efficent is always one after each complete beat
Butterfly: 2
TTN: @(2 2 2) - @() denotes change happens over one circle
Double TTN: @(2 2 2) @(2 2 2)

Comments? Personally I think my head hurts.


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TheWibbler
GOLD Member since Apr 2003

old hand
Location: New Zealand

Total posts: 920
Posted:Wow, this geek thread on notation is catching

At first glances this seems to work well, I'll have a proper look at it when i finish work tonight.

I agree that deciding what to leave out is crucial.

I also agree that direction of spin is not essential in most repetative 'moves'. But there needs to be some convention for direction for 'combos', e.g. if you change direction of 1 poi. However we might be able to leave this out if we make the distinction between moves correctly.

The main difference between what you and I are saying seems to be that you are describing 'base moves' in certain planes. I am taking this 'base move' and applying it to any plane.

I get the feeling that 3 or 4 separate - but interconnected - sets of notation are going to arise from all this.

ramble ramble

my mind hurts too


Spherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.

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TheWibbler
GOLD Member since Apr 2003

old hand
Location: New Zealand

Total posts: 920
Posted:As for the Thread Title...

There is a reason for everything


Spherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.

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Page: 1234

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