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Page: 1234
TheWibbler
GOLD Member since Apr 2003

old hand
Location: New Zealand

Total posts: 920
Posted:The other day I was spinning '3bt butterfly weave' AKA 'Split-time double thread-the-needle' and I suddenly realised that the true name of this move is

Plural Zee Alpha

Absolutely no idea why, but I am trying to rename moves by breaking down the patterns in a more logical mannor, any ideas?


Spherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.

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MikeIcon
GOLD Member since Mar 2003

MikeIcon

Pooh-Bah
Location: Philadelphia, PA - USA

Total posts: 2109
Posted:No more name changes please. This shit is hard enough to describe as it is

Let's turn those old bridges we crossed into ashes.
We'll blaze a new trail,
and torch the rough patches.

-Me

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TheWibbler
GOLD Member since Apr 2003

old hand
Location: New Zealand

Total posts: 920
Posted:Words are becoming completely redundant when applied to poi.

I am in the process of sorting this all out once and for all, language are the shackles which keep us from communicating.

I find it interesting how a lot of us try so hard to define all these 'moves' whilst there are no words fit for descibing 'style'.

For all those who haven't noticed:

Poi is the 100th 'Monkey'


Spherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.

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musashii


musashii

starring Skippy the green llama
Location: Seattle, WA

Total posts: 1148
Posted:kookoo



First intention, then enlightenment..
Ars Pyronomica

" Life is programmed. Whether death is programmed or not is yet to be determined."

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bender
GOLD Member since Nov 2001

still can't believe it's not butter
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 6979
Posted:i respectfully disagree.
language is not the shackle that keeps us from communicating - rather, it is communication.

also i don't think it is impossible to describe styles.

perhaps the enemy is a lack of an accepted convention on tiwrlage movements' names.
and the mistaking of variations of existing movesa as new moves.
and not distinquishing between short combos and complex single moves.

if talking to dirty hippies has taught me something, it would be that one person's set of beliefs -devout as you may be- does not necessarily invalidate everyone else's. So long as it makes sense, your own naming system can work just as well as the next.
if only we had a relational database on the 'net for cross-referencing mention of every unique movement and combination.

then even plural zee alpha could be searched for and found

ps who is the 99th monkey, and is it wet?


Laugh Often, Smile Much, Post lolcats Always

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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
Location: Apparently lost in my ego, USA

Total posts: 1269
Posted:This reminds me of that move I learned the other day...

I call it: Infinitum Finito


Start with a weave or a butterfly and then fluidly go through all the moves you know without stopping in a nice dance-like fashion...


with a little practice, anyone can do it.. and it does away with having to learn ridiculous little things like 'move names'...



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Confusing the masses, one post at a time...
"Obviously, you're not a golfer.."- The Dude
"Buy the ticket... Take the ride..." -Raoul Duke
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oli
SILVER Member since Jul 2003

not with cactus
Location: bristol/ southern eastern devo...

Total posts: 2052
Posted:quote:Originally posted by PoiPoiPoi:

I find it interesting how a lot of us try so hard to define all these 'moves' whilst there are no words fit for descibing 'style'.

almost any descriptive word can be used to describe style, fluid, smooth, flowing, sketchy, jumpy, fast, 70's disco, etc....


Me train running low on soul coal
They push+pull tactics are driving me loco
They shouldn't do that no no no

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TheWibbler
GOLD Member since Apr 2003

old hand
Location: New Zealand

Total posts: 920
Posted:Musashii, you're right, i am indeed 'kookoo'

Bender, Language is communincation - 1 form of it, i agree with that. But allow me to tell you why i think it is flawed.

If I start talking to you about a Man. Before I have told you a single piece of information about this 'Man', your mind has constructed a vague 'impression' about certain characteristics of him. For example, If you are a holy man, you will subconsciously be thinking, 'is this Man a christian?' Perhaps I then say that this Man can't make it to the meeting on Sunday - Aha, your mind says, he is a good church going Man.

Our minds constantly fill in the gaps between the inormation our brain receives. Even your eyes are doing it right now! The result is certainly convincing - a solid unshakable belief which becomes our reality.

What i am saying is that the thought cannot be tranmitted by the word. The only fit way I see to communicate poi is visually - and that is the work I am doing at the moment.

As for the 100 Monkeys, there was an experiment carried out on an island of monkeys - completly separated by any physical links to another group of monkeys on the mainland. The Island monkeys were challenged to solving a problem, which they eventually completed. They said that once the 100th monkey had learnt how to solve the problem, all the monkeys on the mainland could do it as well. Which is the same reason that everyone discovers the same poi moves at the same time around the world.

ANywho, My point is: The system we have in place for naming moves is flawed, and as stuff gets more tricky our words simply cannot explain.

As for style, it can be learned but not taught.


Spherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.

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Charles
BRONZE Member since Jun 2001

Charles

Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Total posts: 3989
Posted:Gee wiz Poipoipoi, what an awful lot of "can'ts" in one post!

I'm a little confused why you are using the word 'flawed' when describing commmunication? Is this because it is not a perfect method that allows everyone to understand themselves 100% of the time?

Perhaps in that respect it is flawed, but gee, expecting it to work that way is being a bit unrealistic.

Everyone is different and has their own version of reality, language is a great tool for interaction between this individuals, and those who work at it can become truly great communicators, those who don't tend to become the rejects of society.

In the same vein, walking and running are 'flawed' methods of transport, because they don't get you to your destination instantly or in a perfectly straight line.

Perhaps it's time to embrace the flaws of this world, enjoy them, and work on them to help us all understand each other and the world we live in a little better.


Well, thats my opinion anyway


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* Is it the Truth?
* Is it Fair to all concerned?
* Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
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Glåss
DIAMOND Member since Nov 2001

Glåss

The Ministry of Manipulation
Location: Bristol, United Kingdom

Total posts: 2523
Posted:PPP
your first post made me laugh more than I have all day.
Your logic is incomplete...
turn it upside down
consider the benefits of a limited communication system in the world of creative movement.





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flid
BRONZE Member since Aug 2002

flid

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Warwickshire, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3136
Posted:yea, but if you call it something else then you can claim you invented it.

Like the double helix quadraphic looping system, which i invented in 1960. There's people calling it the 3 bt weave at the moment, but they are just in denial!

See, cool huh?


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simian


simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London

Total posts: 3149
Posted:Plural Zee Alpha



Sounds highly improbable to me.


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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TheWibbler
GOLD Member since Apr 2003

old hand
Location: New Zealand

Total posts: 920
Posted:My motives are not ones of possesion.

By coding the heavily worded system we have at present we will be able to quickly assess if we know ALL combinations and permutations of a certain move, or family of moves.

For example, if we say that no new name can have more than 3 defining words. That way we can write down every combination of those three words.

e.g.
Plural = both hands do same pattern in time
Zee = Z-plane, butterfly plane, shoulder plane
Alpha = Thread the needle pattern

Hence Plural Y alpha, turn your feet 90 degrees
Plural X alpha, same pattern, horizontal plane

Split Z Alpha, 3bt split time butterfly,

So, to summurise the Language:

Letters = Positions in which you can spin 1 poi.
Words = Poi Moves
Sentances = Combinations of moves
Licks / Riffs = Paragraphs
Freestyle = Story

m


Spherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kin...

Total posts: 7330
Posted:i like the sound of this ppp but is it really versatile enough?

my first observation is the non distinction of poi direction (same or opposite).
secondly, will we not need an absolute shitload of different words - the plural/split and letters stuff seems to be a little ambiguous?

for example, when standing in wall plane (z or 'butterfly plane' as you say above) you could have are two hands together in front, hands alternating infront/behind at hips, the same high/low/behind/infront with each hand one or two movements behind the other.

then we have the added complications of asymmetrical moves, long arms, tangles, stops/wraps/kicks/catches/releases - since this is where our current conventions fall down, maybe to convince the sceptical masses (or maybe just me ) it would be beneficial to show how the 'plural zee alpha' convention deals with these more complex body/poi movements.


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
Location: Apparently lost in my ego, USA

Total posts: 1269
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Charles:


Everyone is different and has their own version of reality, language is a great tool for interaction between this individuals, and those who work at it can become truly great communicators, those who don't tend to become the rejects of society.
just thought I'd point out a few things... none of whcih are related to the thread topic.

1) when chrisitanity took over, greek was translated to latin... problem being latin doesn't have enough letters.. so they had to ad some to the latin alphabet... and they still couldn't translate.. for instance phusis.. which means growth... was translated into latin as nature... you can see wehre I'm going... that and there are several languages that don't have a word for truth, knowledge, etc...and as a result they don't understand things...
* point being... language is an inferior form of communication..

2) thought experiment.. you are out with an tribal hunter.. he points to a rabbit and says gabigai.. what does he mean? rabbit? animal? that? there? etc... you can never 'know' what another person means when they say something.. because words can't carry the full context of that which they try to communicate.. for instance, try and explain a dream you had to someone.. and when you are done, see how much of the experience you were actually able to communicate... I bet its less then half the experience..

3) mathematics is the language of nature... math has been for the longest time the ideal form of communication.. almost everything can convert to numbers..and math is a language most everyone ca understand regardless of barriers.. hrm.. food for thought..

4) music.. music conveys emotion, images, etc.. you hear a song.. you get mental images, you feel it, etc.. so.. music to some is the ultimate form of expression since it conveys so much..

just some food for thought... not saying I agree one way or another.. just posting some thoughts.


More useless information courtesy of Rev...
Confusing the masses, one post at a time...
"Obviously, you're not a golfer.."- The Dude
"Buy the ticket... Take the ride..." -Raoul Duke
"FEMA has never done catastrophe planning..."-Michael Brown

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TheWibbler
GOLD Member since Apr 2003

old hand
Location: New Zealand

Total posts: 920
Posted:Coleman:

Firstly lets ignore the words 'plural, zee and alpha' as these are intended as obfuscation to to the underlying structure - A method of weeding out the people who simply ignore anything 'too strange', whilst simaltaneously firing up the intregue of those who are open to new ideas.

So let's analyse the structure:
What I propose is a system of defining 'combinations of base spins', i.e 'moves', using 3 defining words.

Word 1: Defines how both hands move relative to each other, e.g. same direction, opposite direction, in time, split time, quarter time. This first word can also include movemnets such as, spin 2:1 'circles' , kick, wrap, air wrap, hyperloop, and so on.

Word 2: Is reserved for the Plane and Direction. Lets say, X is the horizontal (corkscrew) plane, Y is Vertical (Wheel, weave) plane, Z is Vertical (Wall, Butterfly) plane. As for the direction of spin (ie Forwards, backwards, inwards, outwards) I suggest a superscript + or -, ie, X+, X-, Y+, Y-, Z+, Z-. HOwever, these can usually be neglected since I want people to think of a 'move' as every possible permutation of what we commonly think of as 'a move'. ie, you do not know a 'move' until you can spin it all round your body, behind your head, behind your back, and so on. In both directions.

Word 3: Defines the pattern of 1 hand poi spins, e.g. 2 on the backhand, 1 on the forehand. This third word also acts as the flavour. ie this is where we can imply styles such as, isolations, straight arms, bendy arms and so on. Perhaps this 'flavour' could be a superscript letter.

I think that when these 'moves' are listed in order it will be easy to see how to transition between them - which allows for the personal touch.

This is all assuming that the poi always spin along the same plane, ie, take the room you are in right now, pick two opposite walls, the poi ALWAYS spin towards or away from those 2 walls. Therefore, when we change from Y-plane to Z-plane, our Feet move 90 degrees, NOT the poi plane.

I'm beginning to think that this 'Plural Zee Alpha' Notaion could really work. I believe its main strength is that it encourages full exploration of possibilities, ie by swapping 1 defining word from a move you 'know' - you can figure out a 'new' move to practice. This in turn 'fuels' and accelerates learning.

Also I believe that by allowing the first word a lot of freedom we will be able to accomodate stuff that we haven't dreamed of yet.

I don't consider this notation to be that big a leap from what we have already, but i do believe that we will need to create an interactive encyclopaedia. For example, if you see the move 'plural zee alpha' - you have no idea what it means. You click on 'plural', whick links to a page showing someone spinning in time, in the same direction (relative to the hand). Okay, You think, i get that. Then you click on 'Z', you see someone spinning in the 'wall plane'. Got it. Then you click 'alpha' which might be alternating hands over and under. Put the three together and you get some kind of thread the needle.

see if you can apply this to any moves - this language isn't mine, it's ours, we all have to figure it out together. No doubt this won't be the final draft, but i hope it gets us all 1 step closer.

Rev: That 'food for thought' tastes pretty sweet to me 4 very valid points. I feel that if we can combine the structure of math with the emotion of music, we may come close to a word structure which can describe Poi more fully.

m


Spherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.

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Glåss
DIAMOND Member since Nov 2001

Glåss

The Ministry of Manipulation
Location: Bristol, United Kingdom

Total posts: 2523
Posted:

ok i know when I'm beaten
I think im gonna have to give up my crown
poipoipoi with this stunt your making a real good challenge for the biggest nerd in poi award.

klaus never got the trophy, cos when it wasn't translated into english, it was all nice.
but man.
with only 7 weeks to go, it looks like you might claim
the biggerest nerd in poi awards 2003

wow
an entirely confusing totally pointless tottally intelligable poi notation which is more confusing that a large caravan.
and sounds like the name of an american university fraternity

beats poi weave transition state diagrams hands down.

glad that I'm not entering this year.


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TheWibbler
GOLD Member since Apr 2003

old hand
Location: New Zealand

Total posts: 920
Posted:quote: wow
an entirely confusing totally pointless tottally intelligable poi notation which is more confusing that a large caravan.
and sounds like the name of an american university fraternity
Are you talking about standard poi notation or 'plural Zee alpha'?


Spherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.

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TheWibbler
GOLD Member since Apr 2003

old hand
Location: New Zealand

Total posts: 920
Posted:I spy a 'non-believer' Glass, come on now,

'It's time to move on'



Spherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kin...

Total posts: 7330
Posted:i did one of those 'delete your reply by accidentally pressing the back button on your mouse' moves.
bugger.

so here i go with the nutshell version of my lost reply.

apologies for my spanish inquisition impression matt - i'm just interested to see if this can work

i'm gonna skip right to my last few comments i think...

i'm still having trouble imagining how to construct three word phrases that describe cross-follows (2bt cf, 3/4/5bt weave and the multitude of variations possible) and reels and their variations whilst avoiding the problem of letting the list of 1st and 3rd words that we must define run away with itself.

yet it seems that this method would work for most moves although for many of them, they would have to be repeatedly broken down until they could be described in a succession of three word phrases.
eg. waistwrap (or to give it its full name 'fwd to rev 2bt cross-follow in the wall plane') would be broken down into four phrases; two 2bt cross-follows and the two transitions between them.
this would make a waistwrap a 12 word move.

which brings me to my only remaining reservation - that fairly simple moves (often themselves with a whole array of variations) would begin as 9-21 word phrases and with variation would just grow and grow.

i agree with glass' 'confusing' and 'unintelligeble' comments (although he actually said 'intelligable' ) but disagree entirely with 'useless'.

keep the faith poipoipoi - i bet they all frowned upon siteswap when they first heard that too - now look what its done for us


Non-Https Image Link


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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simian


simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London

Total posts: 3149
Posted:But in terms of complexity, siteswap is only one dimensional (? i think ?) whereas this language will be attempting to describe all three (? i think ?).

To make a really good notational system you have to decide what to leave out.

If you're going to describe everything then its pretty hard to be succinct.

EDIT: Succinct is the wrong word, but i spent so long working out how to spell it, i'll be damned if i'm changing it now.


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kin...

Total posts: 7330
Posted:quote:Originally posted by simian:
To make a really good notational system you have to decide what to leave out.that was in the post i deleted that was!
you must be some kind of genius

i think we have to include planes - siteswap juggling is carried out in one plane but that is just a result of the fact that a very large majority of juggling patterns are in the wall plane (or 'juggling wall' plane as some people used to call it).
poi is performed in two major planes relative to your body - i would include ceiling plane but i think its shit and more importantly, you have to break planes to get into it.

so maybe just the two vertical planes should be considered at first...?

is concise a better word than succinct?
heresy definitely is


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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TheWibbler
GOLD Member since Apr 2003

old hand
Location: New Zealand

Total posts: 920
Posted:For now lets keep it to vertical planes.

Poi facing in 1 direction, you know, pick a point and spin towards that.

To change the plane move your feet, NOT the poi plane.

I reckon by keeping this initial direction in mind we could then use part of the notation to 'move' the initial direction: but this is only useful for dance routines (can't spell choriogra....)


Spherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.

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TheWibbler
GOLD Member since Apr 2003

old hand
Location: New Zealand

Total posts: 920
Posted:Deciding what to leave out is tricky.

I was trying to figure out the patterns progression. Consider spinning 1 poi:

1) Spin same side of body (forehand)
2) Spin opposite side of body (backhand)
3) 1 x backhand, 1 x forehand, repeat...
4) 2 x backhand, 1 x forehand, repeat...
5) 2 x backhand, 2 x forehand, repeat...
6) 3 x backhand, 2 x forehand, repeat...

And so on. These are what i mean by 'Base Patterns'

I reckon that this list of 6 'base pattern' constitutes a huge number of 'poi moves' when you apply a 'plane' and 'direction' to them. Especially when you consider spinning in Z-plane (TTN) Forehand= away from body, backhand= towards body.

Hmm...


Spherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kin...

Total posts: 7330
Posted:yep - wall plane is the one that confuses me.
just considering hip level, there are at least eight basic hand locations for each hand (or four each for forehand and backhand).

just so i understand, would a 2bt cross-follow in wall plane be something like:

'Split(1) Y Gamma'

where: 'split(1)' denotes split-time [the (1) tells us that one hand is half a circle behind],
'y' as you have defined previously,
'gamma' being base pattern 3.


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:I think Klaus said it best when he said:

_| _| _| _| -> _| -> _|
|_ |_ |_ |_ <- <- <- <-

I know that's how I try to live my life anyway.



Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2364
Posted:god help us all- now coleman has someone to really nerd out with. soon the londoners will all be walking around with their own secret handshakes and certain color outfits for spinning styles and they will all be speaking neo-grecan gobbledygook

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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TheWibbler
GOLD Member since Apr 2003

old hand
Location: New Zealand

Total posts: 920
Posted:Coleman, if it's just you and I then that's fine with me. At least i'll have someone to talk to.

Spherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.

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bender
GOLD Member since Nov 2001

still can't believe it's not butter
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 6979
Posted:but Usul...erm..I mean arashi - what secret language are you talking about?! have you gone water-mad?

Laugh Often, Smile Much, Post lolcats Always

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Glåss
DIAMOND Member since Nov 2001

Glåss

The Ministry of Manipulation
Location: Bristol, United Kingdom

Total posts: 2523
Posted:this thread is sooo geaky its hilarious

So what is "reverse thread the needle" in PZA notation?

I used to know it as the punch.

but then I called TTN:
push throughs too, or cat paws .
until i came to hop.


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TheWibbler
GOLD Member since Apr 2003

old hand
Location: New Zealand

Total posts: 920
Posted:Personally I think Inwards TTN is the same as outwrads TTN. I mean, you can't say 'you know' TTN unless you can do it both ways.

However, for instances where you wanna describe inwards, outwards, forwards, backwards, i suggest using Z+, Z- for inwards, outwards respectively in the Z-plane.

Lets not forget however that this is very early stages of PZA (as it may forever be called).

The terms we are talking about here are not set in concrete.

We are mearly examining How a set of notation could work. I am totally open to other suggestions. But something Does need to be done, 'cos i'm finding it increasingly difficult to describe moves like this


Spherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.

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