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### Forums > Advanced Poi Moves > Plural Zee Alpha...

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TheWibbler
GOLD Member since Apr 2003

old hand
Location: New Zealand

Total posts: 920
Posted:The other day I was spinning '3bt butterfly weave' AKA 'Split-time double thread-the-needle' and I suddenly realised that the true name of this move is

Plural Zee Alpha

Absolutely no idea why, but I am trying to rename moves by breaking down the patterns in a more logical mannor, any ideas?

Spherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.

Dom
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK

Total posts: 3009
Posted:Yay! A D-! Thank god I'm not dating anyone at the moment

"only working within the unexplored boundaries of existing moves" & "the poiswap would just spit out different variations on similiar moves" - no it wouldn't, because an ideal system would be based on first principles - circles, not moves.

The spin Glass and I had on Saturday confirmed to me that hand position should not be included in a notation as it is just too much of a variable. Reckon I can poiswap all of Glass' silly moves.

What's a 'fatty'?

musashii

starring Skippy the green llama
Location: Seattle, WA

Total posts: 1148
Posted:hmm, granted hand positions would increase the variations on a move tri fold, but wouldn't noting hand positions at least let you know which moves are possible? Just wondering, the way I saw ruling out impossible moves would be determined by hand position in some sense?

fatty = big spliff :smoke:

would be nice to be proven wrong on the new moves idea, we need to decide on more than just circles n planes before coding it methinx

First intention, then enlightenment..
Ars Pyronomica

" Life is programmed. Whether death is programmed or not is yet to be determined."

coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted:'fatty'.
as in 'boom batty'.
ya get me star?

and i don't mean to be picky (although i know i'm really bad at suppressing it ) but why is it called poiswap when there is no actual 'swap' going on anywhere...?

as for what arashi said, i agree and disagree.

i think these notations are unlikely to show us anything new and astounding to do with a basic cross follow.
but, if we can develop a system that precludes impossible moves and takes account of say x:y spinning we could end up with a very powerful tool indeed.

however, without hand positions defined we may well be doomed to a notation system that kicks out all combinations and not restrict itself to moves that are actually possible.
yet if we include hand position, we end up with a huge number of variables (cf my 'construct matrix' rant in the post-modernist thread).

"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

poo-bah
Location: Austin TX USA

Total posts: 1015
Posted:1. The "hundred monkeys" story is a myth.

2. Demonstrating a move is not the same as describing it. You may have trouble breaking down a move into words; that doesn't automatically mean that words are a poor medium for communicating poi moves.

Laugh while you can, monkey-boy

Solace

member
Location: Sheffield

Total posts: 14
Posted:
I can't believe a formula for poi is being developed.

The most important thing about any performance skill such as poi or staff, is that you are doing what you want to be doing with it.

If it looks like a three-beat weave to you, then call it a three-beat weave. If it feels like a Double-Helixed-Doohicky, call it that.

Its a personal thing that cannot be formalised or categorised by everyone, but I do agree, it helps if you can communicate what it is you are doing to another performer. This cannot always be achieved by showing them the move, and quite often is even harder if you tell them what it is.

Instead think of it like your vocabulary maybe. Everyone has a repetoire of utterances they can use to communicate with. Not everyone, however, shares the exact same lexicon. There are thousands of words with synonyms - a word that means the same as a completely different word (eg. spin and rotate)

Why not allow the naming of poi moves to be like this. Thus what you might call a "butterfly", someone else might call an "inward bounce". Just because it isn't the socially acceptable name, doesn't mean its wrong. In the end, with enough patience, any single poi move could be described through explanatory words. (yes all of them, language doesn't inhibit us - it allows us to interact).

Building a scientific formula for moves immediately puts limitations on what people will learn. You have x,y and z planes to spin on. What about all the infinite other planes you have in between them?

To summarise, I dont feel anyone can name a poi move incorrectly, and as such if you wanna call it plural zee alpha, then you're not wrong. The name you give it in itself tells us that you obviously approach poi from a quite scientific angle (maybe this affects your stlye). To me, and maybe some others, poi moves can look different every time you do them, a bit more flick - a bit more speed, etc. As such a name given to a trick might describe it perfectly on one occassion, but on another a different name might suit.

Sorry to rant, you guys shouldn't have mentioned language vs. maths.

Matt

You don't need eyes to see, you need vision.

borismcnorris

professional pedant
Location: Bristol

Total posts: 137
Posted:Quote:
Thus what you might call a "butterfly", someone else might call an "inward bounce". Just because it isn't the socially acceptable name, doesn't mean its wrong. In the end, with enough patience, any single poi move could be described through explanatory words.

This maybe correct, but since these forums are text-based, it would be incredibly inconvenient to have to say 'that one where the poi spin round infront of you, in opposite diections at the same time with your hands together' when you could just say 'butterfly' or '1x2f3' or whatever.

The new 'language' being discussed here isn't about creating a 'socially acceptable' (as you put it) way of describing moves. It is about creating a form of describing moves, both mathematically and verbally, that will allow people to discover new moves and variants and communicate these to others in a simple and concise manner.

Quote:
Sorry to rant

Me too, but you seem to have missed the point of what we (or rather the uber-geeks ) are trying to achieve.

Happy spinning

A warrior always returns to the fray. He never does so out of stubbornness, but because he has noticed a change in the weather - Paulo Coelho

coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted:quoting yourself is fun

Quote:
its not *actually* renaming - its coding.

like i said before, all of this you can ignore and still play poi like before.
these ideas are all just ideas for a way to code poi moves explicitly - they will never take over as a dominant form of naming but they could make it a hell of a load easier to describe completely unambiguosly exactly what a waistwrap, ttn, fountain are and so on.

"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

borismcnorris

professional pedant
Location: Bristol

Total posts: 137
Posted:yeah.

wot he said

A warrior always returns to the fray. He never does so out of stubbornness, but because he has noticed a change in the weather - Paulo Coelho

poo-bah
Location: Austin TX USA

Total posts: 1015
Posted:Quote:
Why not allow the naming of poi moves to be like this. Thus what you might call a "butterfly", someone else might call an "inward bounce". Just because it isn't the socially acceptable name, doesn't mean its wrong.

To which I say

Quote:

I don't know what you mean by "glory,"' Alice said.

Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. Of course you don't-till I tell you. I meant "there's a nice knock-down argument for you!"'

But "glory" doesn't mean "a nice knock-down argument,"' Alice objected.

When _I_ use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, it means just what I choose it to mean--neither more nor less.'

The question is,' said Alice, `whether you CAN make words mean so many different things.'

Quote:
Building a scientific formula for moves immediately puts limitations on what people will learn

Nonsense. It might put limits on what some less-imaginative people would learn, but it would otherwise be a boon for learning. This is exactly equivalent to saying "having a system of notation for music will limit the pieces that a musician will learn." On the contrary, it opens up a vast amount of new material to try out. Quote:
You have x,y and z planes to spin on. What about all the infinite other planes you have in between them?

And what about all the notes between the standard notes of the octave?

There actually is a system of notation for dance, called labanotation. The process of scoring a dance is very arduous, and usually involves 8 viewings by a skilled notator.

Laugh while you can, monkey-boy

bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere

Total posts: 5300
Posted:Quote:

question: most "new" moves stem from the evolution of a spinning concept beyond it's boundaries into a further expanse or layer of complexity, so how can you do more than simply perfect the moves that exist and possibly find combinations that you hadn't thought of yet?

very glad you said most

sometimes concepts spring out of nowhere and i for one am very glad they do

R

Holistic Spinner (I hope)

TheWibbler
GOLD Member since Apr 2003

old hand
Location: New Zealand

Total posts: 920
Posted:Arashi:

Quote:
btw what you guys are talking about is not a matrix (self replicating structural system) but more akin to algorithmic formulas (set of symbols defining a mathematical action)

If we want to describe poi in a 4 dimensional space-time, then surely the best way to note down positions in that space is by utilising Matrices.

Spherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.

arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2363
Posted:well apparently, corrected thanks to musashi, there is a math definition of matrices i didn't know about;
quote from wordiq:
In mathematics, a matrix is a rectangular table of data. A matrix with m rows and n columns is said to be an m-by-n matrix. For example,

$\begin{bmatrix} 1 & 2 & 3 \\ 1 & 2 & 6 \\ 4 & 9 & 2 \\ 6 & 1 & 5 \end{bmatrix}$

is a 4-by-3 matrix.

Matrices in the mathematical sense are useful to record data that depend on two categories, such as the sales in three branches of a store in each of the four quarters of a year, or to keep track of the coefficients of linear expressions such as linear transformations and systems of linear equations.

in other words an algebraic form of variable notation. as he said, i needed to notch it down a few. i was defining from a cellular biology and physics usage of the term, which refers to a structure which by nature of it's shape causes other structures to take on it's form or alignment. (such as dna, ice 9 , certain carbon molecules, or crystals. etc.) so just ignore the stoner in the corner butting in on the nerd-a-thon

never studied linear algebra that i can remeber but then i forgot everything else too
but i still think pza may be more akin to algorithms, but it doesn't really matter, i was just butting in
heck i just really love the word algorithm , gonna name my band algorythm, if i ever put the poi down for a second. of course it's already a term in my poi math. it's copyrighted, so each time you read the word you gotta mail me 4 cents.

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere

Total posts: 5300
Posted:what about algorhythm? can we use that?

Holistic Spinner (I hope)

arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2363
Posted:piss off it's my word

don't get all "hyperloopy" on me and use it for your own interpretations and create mass confusion once my dvd/training manual is done

hehehe it _is_ a cool word ain't it

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere

Total posts: 5300
Posted:nonononono

your word is algorythm. mine is algorhythm. and i've just copywrited that in my 5 minutes off line for porridge.

and *sigh* i've given up the discussion of poi technicalities because it seems there will never be any agreement that will actually help

R

Holistic Spinner (I hope)

coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted:Quote:
and *sigh* i've given up the discussion of poi technicalities because it seems there will never be any agreement that will actually help

that's very glass half empty mr cat.

last time i saw glass he was at least 13/17ths full.

have faith...

045164016450

"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere

Total posts: 5300
Posted:are those crossing fours?

yep. half empty on poi right now.

need a geek to play with.

hance the staff oddyssey coming outof my fingertips over in poiinthepark .(not full link but hey.)

BUT. got some headrolls today..(contact ball, been able to do headrolls for a while with a stick )

*rubs hands together in anticipation af smoothity*

EDITED_BY: bluecat (1069843300)

Holistic Spinner (I hope)

TheWibbler
GOLD Member since Apr 2003

old hand
Location: New Zealand

Total posts: 920
Posted:Right,

Had a great weekend filming a load of poi. Full broadcast quality, loads of stuff from basic to under leg stuff, BTB, Throws, hyperloops and loads more.

I'm capturing it now so I should be able to get some up on the web this week

Spherculism is coming together nicely.

m

Spherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.

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