Forums > Advanced Poi Moves > Plural Zee Alpha...
Login/Join to ParticipateGOLD Member
old hand
920 posts
Location: New Zealand
old hand
920 posts
Location: New Zealand
Posted:
The other day I was spinning '3bt butterfly weave' AKA 'Split-time double thread-the-needle' and I suddenly realised that the true name of this move is
Plural Zee Alpha
Absolutely no idea why, but I am trying to rename moves by breaking down the patterns in a more logical mannor, any ideas?
The other day I was spinning '3bt butterfly weave' AKA 'Split-time double thread-the-needle' and I suddenly realised that the true name of this move is
Plural Zee Alpha
Absolutely no idea why, but I am trying to rename moves by breaking down the patterns in a more logical mannor, any ideas?
Spherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.
110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
3,149 posts
Location: London
3,149 posts
Location: London
Posted:
Thread title: Does it suggest the infinite improbability of success in coming up with a comprehensive notation system?
Understood poiswap ok up until:
oh i see! i see!
º = hands not crossed
¹ = hands crossed
² = hands double-crossed
etc.
would be nice if it was noted in a way i knew how to type, rather than having to copy and paste the superscript from your post though
MY TWO CENTS:
cent one
Is it really worth including wheel plane & wall plane? Useless unless you're going to be describing 90º plane changes (very rare) or 'atom' stuff where the poi are on different planes (also very rare). Wouldn't it be best to assume you're always spinning in one plane, wheel or wall, unless you mark it as horizontal?
cent two
Position could be marked as left, right or middle rather than the inclusion of buzzsaw as a new plane. Mentally shift to top, middle, bottom to describe horizontals.
i like your poiswap so far.
Should be called poin though (short for poi notation)
Which would make us poin-dexters
Thread title: Does it suggest the infinite improbability of success in coming up with a comprehensive notation system?
Understood poiswap ok up until:
quote:
Weave: (111)¹ - the hand-crossed over co-efficent is always one after each complete beat
Butterfly: 2¹
TTN: @(2¹ 2º 2¹) - @() denotes change happens over one circle
Double TTN: @(2¹ 2º 2¹) @(2² 2º 2¹)
oh i see! i see!
º = hands not crossed
¹ = hands crossed
² = hands double-crossed
etc.
would be nice if it was noted in a way i knew how to type, rather than having to copy and paste the superscript from your post though
MY TWO CENTS:
cent one
Is it really worth including wheel plane & wall plane? Useless unless you're going to be describing 90º plane changes (very rare) or 'atom' stuff where the poi are on different planes (also very rare). Wouldn't it be best to assume you're always spinning in one plane, wheel or wall, unless you mark it as horizontal?
cent two
Position could be marked as left, right or middle rather than the inclusion of buzzsaw as a new plane. Mentally shift to top, middle, bottom to describe horizontals.
i like your poiswap so far.
Should be called poin though (short for poi notation)
Which would make us poin-dexters
"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."
GOLD Member
old hand
920 posts
Location: New Zealand
old hand
920 posts
Location: New Zealand
Posted:
Dom, I reckon that any 'repetative move' can be fully described by describing 1 hands pattern AND describing how the other hand relates to that hand. e.g. same movements, same movemetns split time, same pattern 2:1 ratio of spins, etc.
Because when 1 hands movements change in relation to the other hand it stops being 1 'move' and becomes the 2nd 'move' (i think )
apologies for such random thoughts - trying not to think too hard before typing.
Dom, I reckon that any 'repetative move' can be fully described by describing 1 hands pattern AND describing how the other hand relates to that hand. e.g. same movements, same movemetns split time, same pattern 2:1 ratio of spins, etc.
Because when 1 hands movements change in relation to the other hand it stops being 1 'move' and becomes the 2nd 'move' (i think )
apologies for such random thoughts - trying not to think too hard before typing.
Spherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.
GOLD Member
old hand
920 posts
Location: New Zealand
old hand
920 posts
Location: New Zealand
Posted:
How do you do superscript in HOP?
quote:Thanks Simian, i didn't get that either
oh i see! i see!
º = hands not crossed
¹ = hands crossed
² = hands double-crossed
etc.
How do you do superscript in HOP?
Spherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.
GOLD Member
journeyman
84 posts
Location: Ubud, Bali, Indonesia
journeyman
84 posts
Location: Ubud, Bali, Indonesia
Posted:
Wow. The intention here is very good, but it seems somewhat futile. As our few resistors here have demonstrated, people prefer things they know not to change, thus we would have even more weird things that people are trying to call their moves, confusing everyone even more.
Maybe the way to go is to disambiguate our current terms.
Wow. The intention here is very good, but it seems somewhat futile. As our few resistors here have demonstrated, people prefer things they know not to change, thus we would have even more weird things that people are trying to call their moves, confusing everyone even more.
Maybe the way to go is to disambiguate our current terms.
Genuineness only thrives in the dark -- like celery.
110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
3,149 posts
Location: London
3,149 posts
Location: London
Posted:
The aim isn't to change all the names of moves, but to find a new system for analysing moves.
Noone's going to insist you call your weave a (111)¹
The aim isn't to change all the names of moves, but to find a new system for analysing moves.
Noone's going to insist you call your weave a (111)¹
"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."
BRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,009 posts
Location: Bristol, UK
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,009 posts
Location: Bristol, UK
Posted:
kittyn - I know poiswap and PZA are only academic exercises and won't be adopted by the spinning masses, but it's because we think about these things that some people progress to invent amazing new moves. People like simian, cole, PPP, arashi and glass may get nerdy about obscure names but I'm sure it's not just coincidence that they're some of the best spinners around.
Simian - "Is it really worth including wheel plane & wall plane?"
Yes. One because I've worked on these a bit and two, I reckon that there's a fundamental difference in them.
Cent 2 might be worth something
PPP - body movement not a part of my poiswap, for the same reason hand movement isn't.
I think (111)¹ does get across repeataive moves and relative hand position.
I'm leaving out keys to make you guys work at it
"Because when 1 hands movements change in relation to the other hand it stops being 1 'move' and becomes the 2nd 'move'" - depends on the move, no?
The reason why I'm liking my poiswap:
111 change one number e.g. 141 and immediately you're trying something new stimulated by a notation. Then move to 144, R: 144 L:444, etc...
Flowers: @2( n(2) ) - in one 2 (wall plane circle) do n number of 2's. Then change numbers for inspiration: n(2) to n(4), change all to 1, etc...
Hurrah! The notation handles nested circles and beats. Damn! It looks like maths. Damn! It's bad maths at that so geeks are going to moan!
kittyn - I know poiswap and PZA are only academic exercises and won't be adopted by the spinning masses, but it's because we think about these things that some people progress to invent amazing new moves. People like simian, cole, PPP, arashi and glass may get nerdy about obscure names but I'm sure it's not just coincidence that they're some of the best spinners around.
Simian - "Is it really worth including wheel plane & wall plane?"
Yes. One because I've worked on these a bit and two, I reckon that there's a fundamental difference in them.
Cent 2 might be worth something
PPP - body movement not a part of my poiswap, for the same reason hand movement isn't.
I think (111)¹ does get across repeataive moves and relative hand position.
I'm leaving out keys to make you guys work at it
"Because when 1 hands movements change in relation to the other hand it stops being 1 'move' and becomes the 2nd 'move'" - depends on the move, no?
The reason why I'm liking my poiswap:
111 change one number e.g. 141 and immediately you're trying something new stimulated by a notation. Then move to 144, R: 144 L:444, etc...
Flowers: @2( n(2) ) - in one 2 (wall plane circle) do n number of 2's. Then change numbers for inspiration: n(2) to n(4), change all to 1, etc...
Hurrah! The notation handles nested circles and beats. Damn! It looks like maths. Damn! It's bad maths at that so geeks are going to moan!
SILVER Member
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
Posted:
hey kittykitty its not *actually* renaming - its coding.
like i said before, all of this you can ignore and still play poi like before.
these ideas are all just ideas for a way to code poi moves explicitly but it will never take over as a dominant form of naming but it will make it a hell of a load easier to describe completely unambiguosly exactly what a waistwrap, ttn, fountain are and so on.
edit: damn i'm slow sorry kitty
[ 14. November 2003, 03:57: Message edited by: coleman ]
hey kittykitty its not *actually* renaming - its coding.
like i said before, all of this you can ignore and still play poi like before.
these ideas are all just ideas for a way to code poi moves explicitly but it will never take over as a dominant form of naming but it will make it a hell of a load easier to describe completely unambiguosly exactly what a waistwrap, ttn, fountain are and so on.
quote:i think all the other geeks are too busy making yours and poipoipoi's new thrones to moan
Damn! It's bad maths at that so geeks are going to moan!
edit: damn i'm slow sorry kitty
[ 14. November 2003, 03:57: Message edited by: coleman ]
"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood
110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
3,149 posts
Location: London
3,149 posts
Location: London
Posted:
The thing i really like looking at that poi notation is how its suited to describing a flowing continuum of actions with the poi, as opposed to describing discrete 'moves' that are linked via 'transitions'. i reckon the latter is way of thinking is brought about by naming 'moves', and is far less conducive creativity and flowing routines.
The thing i really like looking at that poi notation is how its suited to describing a flowing continuum of actions with the poi, as opposed to describing discrete 'moves' that are linked via 'transitions'. i reckon the latter is way of thinking is brought about by naming 'moves', and is far less conducive creativity and flowing routines.
"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."
GOLD Member
old hand
920 posts
Location: New Zealand
old hand
920 posts
Location: New Zealand
Posted:
Simian - Great point - It's so hard to get out of the 'moves' habit. I don't spin any 'moves' these days (except during practice) But they are still engrained into my head.
Simian - Great point - It's so hard to get out of the 'moves' habit. I don't spin any 'moves' these days (except during practice) But they are still engrained into my head.
Spherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.
110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
3,149 posts
Location: London
3,149 posts
Location: London
Posted:
Other than foot direction?
Go on...
Oh, and
[ 14. November 2003, 05:10: Message edited by: simian ]
quote:
Originally posted by Døm:
I reckon that there's a fundamental difference in [wheel and wall plane].
Other than foot direction?
Go on...
Oh, and
quote:
Originally posted by Poipoipoi:
How do you do superscript in HOP?
[ 14. November 2003, 05:10: Message edited by: simian ]
"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."
SILVER Member
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
Posted:
buzzsaw as a 'plane' brings up a nice point i think...
buzzsaw zone - a lot of people (rightly) consider it different because of the hand positioning and what it allows you to do - its unique in that you get circles with common centre but can do as many circles as you like due to no crossing of hands.
however, i am fully against its treatment as an extra plane.
in fact the crossing of hands is not as simple as dom has made out - if you think logically about just one hand in the wheel plane, with no btb there are five distinct hand locations to spin in:
own side of body, outside (like a standard, basic natural spin)
own side of body inside (arashi would call it an inverted own side spin or something similar, moves like dom's wheelchair thing etc.)
centre of body (buzzsaw zone)
other side, inside (eg. right poi spun under left armpit - separations from a weave are a good example of this)
other side, outside (eg. right poi spun outside left arm, the normal across body spin used in cross follows)
with two hands you get chosen combinations of these and that is where i started whenever i tried to code poi - a large number of distinctly different hand location/arm cross arrangements.
i always got far too tied up (there are a stupid number of locations in wall plane - 8 per hand just at hip level and not including inversions last time i checked) but maybe a selection of notation that cover different aspects of poi is what we should be expecting to find...
there are a number of versions of siteswap so why not pza, poiswap (dodgy name dom can it not be called 'that one by numbers' or something? ) and a few more to handle tangled spinning, inverted spinning and so on...?
i'll get going on the tangle notation shall i...?
buzzsaw as a 'plane' brings up a nice point i think...
buzzsaw zone - a lot of people (rightly) consider it different because of the hand positioning and what it allows you to do - its unique in that you get circles with common centre but can do as many circles as you like due to no crossing of hands.
however, i am fully against its treatment as an extra plane.
in fact the crossing of hands is not as simple as dom has made out - if you think logically about just one hand in the wheel plane, with no btb there are five distinct hand locations to spin in:
own side of body, outside (like a standard, basic natural spin)
own side of body inside (arashi would call it an inverted own side spin or something similar, moves like dom's wheelchair thing etc.)
centre of body (buzzsaw zone)
other side, inside (eg. right poi spun under left armpit - separations from a weave are a good example of this)
other side, outside (eg. right poi spun outside left arm, the normal across body spin used in cross follows)
with two hands you get chosen combinations of these and that is where i started whenever i tried to code poi - a large number of distinctly different hand location/arm cross arrangements.
i always got far too tied up (there are a stupid number of locations in wall plane - 8 per hand just at hip level and not including inversions last time i checked) but maybe a selection of notation that cover different aspects of poi is what we should be expecting to find...
there are a number of versions of siteswap so why not pza, poiswap (dodgy name dom can it not be called 'that one by numbers' or something? ) and a few more to handle tangled spinning, inverted spinning and so on...?
i'll get going on the tangle notation shall i...?
"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood
110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
3,149 posts
Location: London
3,149 posts
Location: London
Posted:
knotation?
What a tangled web you weave, Cole
oh, and i can spin circles with common centre as many times as i like without crossing hands and without buzzsaw.
in fact its the first move i learned.
And there are an infinite amount of hand positions. Its deciding whats the optimum amount to make a notation thingy with. (although those were my five hand positions, you bastard )
knotation?
What a tangled web you weave, Cole
oh, and i can spin circles with common centre as many times as i like without crossing hands and without buzzsaw.
in fact its the first move i learned.
And there are an infinite amount of hand positions. Its deciding whats the optimum amount to make a notation thingy with. (although those were my five hand positions, you bastard )
"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."
SILVER Member
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
Posted:
point two: technically, there are just a very large amount of hand positions - please review your concept of infinity
on this point though - there are hand positions that restrict poi movement in different ways and require specific timed transitions to get between them without tangling.
if we assume hands are no further than poi length apart then we get a set of distinctly different hand positions based on those criteria.
i do like knotation though - its almost enough to start me thinking about it.
quote:point one: go on then
Originally posted by simian:
oh, and i can spin circles with common centre as many times as i like without crossing hands and without buzzsaw.
And there are an infinite amount of hand positions.
point two: technically, there are just a very large amount of hand positions - please review your concept of infinity
on this point though - there are hand positions that restrict poi movement in different ways and require specific timed transitions to get between them without tangling.
if we assume hands are no further than poi length apart then we get a set of distinctly different hand positions based on those criteria.
i do like knotation though - its almost enough to start me thinking about it.
"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood
BRONZE Member
Bastard Newbie Messiah
1,269 posts
Location: Apparently lost in my ego, USA
Bastard Newbie Messiah
1,269 posts
Location: Apparently lost in my ego, USA
Posted:
Catch a clue
Communication
Learning
Understanding
Exploration
quote:shouldn't it be a mission statement:
Originally posted by PoiPoiPoi:
Mission statement for hybrid notation
Any new notation must aid:
Communication
Exploration
Learning
&
Understanding
Catch a clue
Communication
Learning
Understanding
Exploration
More useless information courtesy of Rev...
Confusing the masses, one post at a time...
"Obviously, you're not a golfer.."- The Dude
"Buy the ticket... Take the ride..." -Raoul Duke
"FEMA has never done catastrophe planning..."-Michael Brown
NYC
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Posted:
Um... what will a notation allow us to do that we are not already doing? Will it allow those of us that already understand a move to fail to explain it to a newbie because they both don't know the move and haven't learned the notation?
There's an old trick that educators seem to fall into. A bunch of veteran teachers will sit in a room and decide the best way to teach a fundamental topic. Someone will come up with some idea like "Let's teach the atom using marshmallows!" and the rest of the educators, WHO ALREADY UNDERSTAND the structure of the atom, will understand the marshmallow analogy and think it's brilliant.
Then they go and try and teach it to people who DON'T already understand the atom and it fails horribly.
Let's make sure that we don't invent a language that you already need to understand the move to understand the language.
If this is to be an educational tool, it must be one that an uneducated person could use to become more educated.
If 6 veteran poi nerds come up with a new notation for butterfly that makes no sense to a newbie, what's the point?
Aside from accumulating poi nerd points (PNPs).
Um... what will a notation allow us to do that we are not already doing? Will it allow those of us that already understand a move to fail to explain it to a newbie because they both don't know the move and haven't learned the notation?
There's an old trick that educators seem to fall into. A bunch of veteran teachers will sit in a room and decide the best way to teach a fundamental topic. Someone will come up with some idea like "Let's teach the atom using marshmallows!" and the rest of the educators, WHO ALREADY UNDERSTAND the structure of the atom, will understand the marshmallow analogy and think it's brilliant.
Then they go and try and teach it to people who DON'T already understand the atom and it fails horribly.
Let's make sure that we don't invent a language that you already need to understand the move to understand the language.
If this is to be an educational tool, it must be one that an uneducated person could use to become more educated.
If 6 veteran poi nerds come up with a new notation for butterfly that makes no sense to a newbie, what's the point?
Aside from accumulating poi nerd points (PNPs).
Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]
SILVER Member
not with cactus
2,052 posts
Location: bristol/ southern eastern devon, United Kingdom
not with cactus
2,052 posts
Location: bristol/ southern eastern devon, United Kingdom
Posted:
ok, i have been reading this thread with a vauge interest. i have resisted posting anything so far, ive just been froming opinions quietly in my head.
i can see what advantages a new language would have, but i see some problems not metioned.
ok assuming you invent this language and it all works really well, all the moves suddenly have names like plural zee alpha, singular exx delta or whatever...
people will use this language but i think they will for want of a better word, bastardise it, there is no way to control what people say. so people would inevitably create slang, plural zee alpha would become, pza then tsar, then who knows...
so your new langauge will eventually become as vauge and interesting as the current one...
this is of course probably not the point but still i felt i had to make my point.
ok, i have been reading this thread with a vauge interest. i have resisted posting anything so far, ive just been froming opinions quietly in my head.
i can see what advantages a new language would have, but i see some problems not metioned.
ok assuming you invent this language and it all works really well, all the moves suddenly have names like plural zee alpha, singular exx delta or whatever...
people will use this language but i think they will for want of a better word, bastardise it, there is no way to control what people say. so people would inevitably create slang, plural zee alpha would become, pza then tsar, then who knows...
so your new langauge will eventually become as vauge and interesting as the current one...
this is of course probably not the point but still i felt i had to make my point.
Me train running low on soul coal
They push+pull tactics are driving me loco
They shouldn't do that no no no
professional pedant
137 posts
Location: Bristol
137 posts
Location: Bristol
Posted:
I'm not saying that any 'language' developed here has to stick to siteswap conventions, but there is no reason why the two forms cannot exist side-by-side.
Not sure if I've made myself clear but i'm all for this new stuff. geeks rule
Maybe we could just have a smiley for every move and then just communicate in some kind of animated heiroglyphics
quote:Is it not more about developing a way of describing the underlying structure of the moves rather than all the intricacies and variations that are inherent with any move. eg. in siteswap as Dom ssaid before, 3 (or 333) describes a straight-forward cascade, reverse cascade, mills mess... etc.
Originally posted by oli:
people will use this language but i think they will for want of a better word, bastardise it, there is no way to control what people say. so people would inevitably create slang, plural zee alpha would become, pza then tsar, then who knows...
so your new langauge will eventually become as vauge and interesting as the current one...
this is of course probably not the point but still i felt i had to make my point.
I'm not saying that any 'language' developed here has to stick to siteswap conventions, but there is no reason why the two forms cannot exist side-by-side.
Not sure if I've made myself clear but i'm all for this new stuff. geeks rule
Maybe we could just have a smiley for every move and then just communicate in some kind of animated heiroglyphics
A warrior always returns to the fray. He never does so out of stubbornness, but because he has noticed a change in the weather - Paulo Coelho
NYC
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Posted:
I don't know if it's the font or the gray background or what.. but my post seemed very preachy.
I don't really have an opinion either way and think it's great that you guys are going this.
I should have sprinkled that in somewhere.
I don't know if it's the font or the gray background or what.. but my post seemed very preachy.
I don't really have an opinion either way and think it's great that you guys are going this.
I should have sprinkled that in somewhere.
Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]
BRONZE Member
Bastard Newbie Messiah
1,269 posts
Location: Apparently lost in my ego, USA
Bastard Newbie Messiah
1,269 posts
Location: Apparently lost in my ego, USA
Posted:
I'm telling ya.. this will never end until the math phd's and the physics phd's agree.. and of course you have to have latin names... to sort things out.. or greek, if ya really want... and after all that notation it will get another name (like weave).. Like everything else that has ever had a serious specific nomenclature system...
Nothing against yous guys, because I've already proposed as some have, that we move to a new system of descriptions.. (and if you wnat names then fine that too) Just keep in mind that people will still use the old system as well regardless of how cool we make the new stuff....
edit: oh yeah.. and there are those that don't care about names either and just say 'watch this.'
I'm telling ya.. this will never end until the math phd's and the physics phd's agree.. and of course you have to have latin names... to sort things out.. or greek, if ya really want... and after all that notation it will get another name (like weave).. Like everything else that has ever had a serious specific nomenclature system...
Nothing against yous guys, because I've already proposed as some have, that we move to a new system of descriptions.. (and if you wnat names then fine that too) Just keep in mind that people will still use the old system as well regardless of how cool we make the new stuff....
edit: oh yeah.. and there are those that don't care about names either and just say 'watch this.'
More useless information courtesy of Rev...
Confusing the masses, one post at a time...
"Obviously, you're not a golfer.."- The Dude
"Buy the ticket... Take the ride..." -Raoul Duke
"FEMA has never done catastrophe planning..."-Michael Brown
110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
3,149 posts
Location: London
3,149 posts
Location: London
Posted:
Unless i've missed the point somewhat the aim is NOT an educational tool for newbies, a renaming of moves, or a language that is to be commonly used.
It's meant to be a coherent and internally consistent system for analysing poi movement and extrapolating new ideas.
It's easy to go "hey, what if i change those 2s into 3s, and add a little nested circle there"
Then the outcome will be either:
A) WOW what a great new move! And i'd never have thought of it without this great notation system!
B) oh, its just a (insert move name X)
C) whoops that's actually impossible (although a really good notation system would have some kind of algorithm to determine this, without having to try the move out)
D) Yikes! thats one ugly move.
i'd say as long as there's the possibility of a couple of outcome A's, then it's worth the effort.
Unless i've missed the point somewhat the aim is NOT an educational tool for newbies, a renaming of moves, or a language that is to be commonly used.
It's meant to be a coherent and internally consistent system for analysing poi movement and extrapolating new ideas.
It's easy to go "hey, what if i change those 2s into 3s, and add a little nested circle there"
Then the outcome will be either:
A) WOW what a great new move! And i'd never have thought of it without this great notation system!
B) oh, its just a (insert move name X)
C) whoops that's actually impossible (although a really good notation system would have some kind of algorithm to determine this, without having to try the move out)
D) Yikes! thats one ugly move.
i'd say as long as there's the possibility of a couple of outcome A's, then it's worth the effort.
"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."
BRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,009 posts
Location: Bristol, UK
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,009 posts
Location: Bristol, UK
Posted:
NYC - it was preachy. I'm expecting a report card in the post
Simian just wrote the post I was writing. Ta
I'm now available for lectures on poiswap and the consequences of time not existing
NYC - it was preachy. I'm expecting a report card in the post
Simian just wrote the post I was writing. Ta
I'm now available for lectures on poiswap and the consequences of time not existing
110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
3,149 posts
Location: London
3,149 posts
Location: London
Posted:
s'cool
But i still can't see why you differentiate between wheel and wall plane, when you're not even specifying hand positions.
s'cool
But i still can't see why you differentiate between wheel and wall plane, when you're not even specifying hand positions.
"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."
GOLD Member
old hand
920 posts
Location: New Zealand
old hand
920 posts
Location: New Zealand
Posted:
coleman
Rev
Your right that their shouldn't be a 'mission statement' - Merely an action to focus minds. Catch a clue
oli
If there are a handful of people scattered around the globe that can gain deeper insite into the underlying structure of poi and use that knowledge to good effect. Then the progess they make will filter through to everyone else.
No elitism intended - anyone who wants to use notation is welcome to
borismcnorris
<< Smilies to define moves - GENIUS, I'm working on something similar but it's too early to say if it's gonna work.
Rev
If we use the knotation (gotta love that simian) to hypothesize new moves, learn them, get them on film and upload them then everybody benefits, whether they know the language or not.
Dom
Had a ood look at your notation last night and it works really well
3bt weave = (111)¹
Very elegant, pure, I like it a lot. It reminds me of 'Machine Code'. I think that the structure of it is complete and that it should not be complicated at all, it leaves great range for experimentation and is easy to read. Have a gold star
Non-Https Image Link
1 thing:It's seems to me quite odd to number the planes. Call me old fashioned but i like x,y,z. We could then use 'numbers' for the 'number of spins'.
ie
(111)¹ = (y,2y)¹ Where Y-plane = wheel plane [weave]
It seems we are getting into Matrices. Damn - I wish i'd listened during math
We could say that the position of matrix, ie, y is in first position above^^^, 2y is second position in matrix. First position= forehand, second position= backhand. But this can be expanded to include any other number of hand positions, e.g;
(y,y,_)º= Forehand Y-plane, Forehand Y-plane(buzzsaw zone), Nothing of the backhand
(_,y,2y,_)¹ No forehand, 1 spin inside same-side, 2 spins inside opposite side, no backhand.
This is an (isolated) weave in the 'buzzsaw zone'(nb i think the ¹ is correct however, i'm not sure your 'arms' actually cross during this 'move')
Okay, so if you want you can put in ALL the _ spacers, but if they are not their we just have to come up with a convention, e.g. if only 2 matrix positions are named, they are forehand and backhand(Or in front and behind body), if 3 are named, then it's Forehand, inside, backhand, and so on.
*************************
So I reckon that this is a brilliant way of noting down moves, but I for one don't wanna walk around saying, "Hey I've been working on that Zed-TwoZed-Why-TwoWhy-ToThePowerTwo move you showed me"
I think that the 'Machine code' Needs a little translation.
Take this example again:
(111)¹ = (y,2y)¹ Where Y-plane = wheel plane [weave]
Allow: (superscript doesn't seem like correct notation but lets go with it for now until a math phd Proves otherwise )
(y,2y)¹ = y(1,2)¹
This tells us:
1) That the plane we are spinning is Y
2) The 'base pattern' is 1 forehand, 2 backhand
3) That we are gonna have to cross our arms once
This fully describes the patterns of both hand and leaves us up to exploring the possibilities.
However, For the standard 3 beat weave, the hand movements are staggered by 3 beats, which is equal to the Half the total number of beats, and equal to the number of beats in 1 repetition of 1 hand. Golly...
But Coleman, What does it all mean???
coleman
quote:I too reckon on their being 5 hand positions as you describe above. However can we not 'cancel-out' centre of body (buzzsaw zone) AND own side of body inside. For I believe these are actually equal??? That would leave us with 4 hand positions. 3 certainly isn't enough when you do those crazy isolated weaves, but i reckon 4 will do because when poi are inside arms it only matters where they are in relation to each other. I could be wrong but will need an example.
own side of body, outside (like a standard, basic natural spin)
own side of body inside (arashi would call it an inverted own side spin or something similar, moves like dom's wheelchair thing etc.)
centre of body (buzzsaw zone)
other side, inside (eg. right poi spun under left armpit - separations from a weave are a good example of this)
other side, outside (eg. right poi spun outside left arm, the normal across body spin used in cross follows)
Rev
Your right that their shouldn't be a 'mission statement' - Merely an action to focus minds. Catch a clue
oli
If there are a handful of people scattered around the globe that can gain deeper insite into the underlying structure of poi and use that knowledge to good effect. Then the progess they make will filter through to everyone else.
No elitism intended - anyone who wants to use notation is welcome to
borismcnorris
<< Smilies to define moves - GENIUS, I'm working on something similar but it's too early to say if it's gonna work.
Rev
quote:I think it's important to note that this language might only be spoken by those who understand. However, the learning that filters from this will be just as real whatever language someone uses.
Just keep in mind that people will still use the old system as well regardless of how cool we make the new stuff....
If we use the knotation (gotta love that simian) to hypothesize new moves, learn them, get them on film and upload them then everybody benefits, whether they know the language or not.
Dom
Had a ood look at your notation last night and it works really well
3bt weave = (111)¹
Very elegant, pure, I like it a lot. It reminds me of 'Machine Code'. I think that the structure of it is complete and that it should not be complicated at all, it leaves great range for experimentation and is easy to read. Have a gold star
Non-Https Image Link
1 thing:It's seems to me quite odd to number the planes. Call me old fashioned but i like x,y,z. We could then use 'numbers' for the 'number of spins'.
ie
(111)¹ = (y,2y)¹ Where Y-plane = wheel plane [weave]
It seems we are getting into Matrices. Damn - I wish i'd listened during math
We could say that the position of matrix, ie, y is in first position above^^^, 2y is second position in matrix. First position= forehand, second position= backhand. But this can be expanded to include any other number of hand positions, e.g;
(y,y,_)º= Forehand Y-plane, Forehand Y-plane(buzzsaw zone), Nothing of the backhand
(_,y,2y,_)¹ No forehand, 1 spin inside same-side, 2 spins inside opposite side, no backhand.
This is an (isolated) weave in the 'buzzsaw zone'(nb i think the ¹ is correct however, i'm not sure your 'arms' actually cross during this 'move')
Okay, so if you want you can put in ALL the _ spacers, but if they are not their we just have to come up with a convention, e.g. if only 2 matrix positions are named, they are forehand and backhand(Or in front and behind body), if 3 are named, then it's Forehand, inside, backhand, and so on.
*************************
So I reckon that this is a brilliant way of noting down moves, but I for one don't wanna walk around saying, "Hey I've been working on that Zed-TwoZed-Why-TwoWhy-ToThePowerTwo move you showed me"
I think that the 'Machine code' Needs a little translation.
Take this example again:
(111)¹ = (y,2y)¹ Where Y-plane = wheel plane [weave]
Allow: (superscript doesn't seem like correct notation but lets go with it for now until a math phd Proves otherwise )
(y,2y)¹ = y(1,2)¹
This tells us:
1) That the plane we are spinning is Y
2) The 'base pattern' is 1 forehand, 2 backhand
3) That we are gonna have to cross our arms once
This fully describes the patterns of both hand and leaves us up to exploring the possibilities.
However, For the standard 3 beat weave, the hand movements are staggered by 3 beats, which is equal to the Half the total number of beats, and equal to the number of beats in 1 repetition of 1 hand. Golly...
But Coleman, What does it all mean???
Spherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.
BRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,009 posts
Location: Bristol, UK
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,009 posts
Location: Bristol, UK
Posted:
Simian - it's hard to be more convincingly specific than "because it is different". A move on the left can be replicated on the right, but that same move in the wall plane is different. For example the hand movements for the weave (while not being defined as there are a multitude of possibilities) are different to a weave in the wall plane.
If you start saying it's only the feet that are different then the same applies to every plane.
PPP - I'll hopefully get a chance to ponder over the weekend. Now I've got a server to kick up the router and a plane to catch.
Simian - it's hard to be more convincingly specific than "because it is different". A move on the left can be replicated on the right, but that same move in the wall plane is different. For example the hand movements for the weave (while not being defined as there are a multitude of possibilities) are different to a weave in the wall plane.
If you start saying it's only the feet that are different then the same applies to every plane.
PPP - I'll hopefully get a chance to ponder over the weekend. Now I've got a server to kick up the router and a plane to catch.
Pooh-Bah
2,364 posts
Location: austin,tx
2,364 posts
Location: austin,tx
Posted:
btw what you guys are talking about is not a matrix (self replicating structural system) but more akin to algorithmic formulas (set of symbols defining a mathematical action)
question: most "new" moves stem from the evolution of a spinning concept beyond it's boundaries into a further expanse or layer of complexity, so how can you do more than simply perfect the moves that exist and possibly find combinations that you hadn't thought of yet? IOW you are only working within the unexplored boundaries of existing moves, not finding "new" ones. so you _will_ find moves that you hadn't thought of yet like putting a 7 beat and a butterfly together for a weird crossarm butterfly but you have to know the 7 beat to put it into your pza algorithmic formula in the first place. not that it matters but i'm just sayin. this system will never replace a good dank fatty and some practice in front of a big subwoofer
oh noooooo i'm getting sucked in
btw what you guys are talking about is not a matrix (self replicating structural system) but more akin to algorithmic formulas (set of symbols defining a mathematical action)
question: most "new" moves stem from the evolution of a spinning concept beyond it's boundaries into a further expanse or layer of complexity, so how can you do more than simply perfect the moves that exist and possibly find combinations that you hadn't thought of yet? IOW you are only working within the unexplored boundaries of existing moves, not finding "new" ones. so you _will_ find moves that you hadn't thought of yet like putting a 7 beat and a butterfly together for a weird crossarm butterfly but you have to know the 7 beat to put it into your pza algorithmic formula in the first place. not that it matters but i'm just sayin. this system will never replace a good dank fatty and some practice in front of a big subwoofer
oh noooooo i'm getting sucked in
-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.
starring Skippy the green llama
1,148 posts
Location: Seattle, WA
1,148 posts
Location: Seattle, WA
Posted:
put down de fatty(just for a second eh), n take your definition of a matrix a few levels simpler, these are simply spatial equations still..Thats why you're having to pick n choose which levels, dimensions, factors you leave out. I agree tho, once coded, the poiswap would just spit out different variations on similiar moves, not anything completely new..great for choreography tho, since it lays down a pattern for sound, match beat for beat? still looks like the only variable is time...
[ 15. November 2003, 20:21: Message edited by: musashii ]
put down de fatty(just for a second eh), n take your definition of a matrix a few levels simpler, these are simply spatial equations still..Thats why you're having to pick n choose which levels, dimensions, factors you leave out. I agree tho, once coded, the poiswap would just spit out different variations on similiar moves, not anything completely new..great for choreography tho, since it lays down a pattern for sound, match beat for beat? still looks like the only variable is time...
[ 15. November 2003, 20:21: Message edited by: musashii ]
First intention, then enlightenment..
Ars Pyronomica
" Life is programmed. Whether death is programmed or not is yet to be determined."
starring Skippy the green llama
1,148 posts
Location: Seattle, WA
1,148 posts
Location: Seattle, WA
Posted:
mmm, wonder what machine generated sets would look like?
mmm, wonder what machine generated sets would look like?
First intention, then enlightenment..
Ars Pyronomica
" Life is programmed. Whether death is programmed or not is yet to be determined."
NYC
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Posted:
Report Card for Dom:
Intellect: F
Personality: F
Hygine: F
Poi Spinning: D-
Dom is working at his ability level. He should pursue occupational education in the following career areas:
Medical Test Subject
Blood Donor
Shade Provider
Crash Test Dummy
Report Card for Dom:
Intellect: F
Personality: F
Hygine: F
Poi Spinning: D-
Dom is working at his ability level. He should pursue occupational education in the following career areas:
Medical Test Subject
Blood Donor
Shade Provider
Crash Test Dummy
Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]
DIAMOND Member
The Ministry of Manipulation
2,523 posts
Location: Bristol, United Kingdom
The Ministry of Manipulation
2,523 posts
Location: Bristol, United Kingdom
Posted:
or a hair model?
yea, what arashi said.
or a hair model?
yea, what arashi said.
110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
3,149 posts
Location: London
3,149 posts
Location: London
Posted:
Arashi (& Glass you chimer-inner ):
What are you saying?
That a construct in the form of notation can't be used as an aid to come up with interesting original beautiful patterns?
Or that new 'moves' are something more than this?
If a 'new move' must be a paradigm (sth. that introduces a totally new idea that changes all that goes after it) then maybe you're right (but i'd still be inclined to argue). But then the only new concepts in the whole time i've been doing poi have been isolating and tangling (and behindthebacking shortly before i started).
Of course it could be argued there are never any new ideas and we're just manifesting things at different times. But technically that'd be wrong
i've recently developed an irrational hatred for the word "moves". Patterns seems a more fitting term for the majority of poi 'moves'. This also encourages more imagination in spinning. Creating your own patterns seems much more acheivable than creating your own 'moves'. And describing things in the form of notation is a more convenient way of describing unique patterns than trying to use a string of 'move-names'.
So i'd say...
Arashi (& Glass you chimer-inner ):
What are you saying?
That a construct in the form of notation can't be used as an aid to come up with interesting original beautiful patterns?
Or that new 'moves' are something more than this?
If a 'new move' must be a paradigm (sth. that introduces a totally new idea that changes all that goes after it) then maybe you're right (but i'd still be inclined to argue). But then the only new concepts in the whole time i've been doing poi have been isolating and tangling (and behindthebacking shortly before i started).
Of course it could be argued there are never any new ideas and we're just manifesting things at different times. But technically that'd be wrong
i've recently developed an irrational hatred for the word "moves". Patterns seems a more fitting term for the majority of poi 'moves'. This also encourages more imagination in spinning. Creating your own patterns seems much more acheivable than creating your own 'moves'. And describing things in the form of notation is a more convenient way of describing unique patterns than trying to use a string of 'move-names'.
So i'd say...
code:
IF
notation_system = creativity_aid = (fatty+subwoofer)
THEN
(notation_system+fatty+subwoofer) = 2*creativity_aid
"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."
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