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Forums > Beginner Poi Moves > Wall Plane (or is it plain)

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laZy
BRONZE Member since Aug 2003

member
Location: Somerset...... England

Total posts: 94
Posted:I searched this and found loads of references but no descriptions.

5 beat reverse weave to 5 beat forward weave on a wall plane.

So I can do it with the beats to the left and the right of me but what does the wall plane mean?

Is it where the beats are infront and behind you ?

Thanks
laZy


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MikeIcon
GOLD Member since Mar 2003

MikeIcon

Pooh-Bah
Location: Philadelphia, PA - USA

Total posts: 2109
Posted:Yes, if you do a normal weave, then turn your body 90 degrees. Its the plane Butterfly moves are on. There are weave, butterfly, winmill, and buzzsaw moves on wallplane.

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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
Location: Apparently lost in my ego, USA

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Posted:buzzsaw in the wall plane.. eww.. must be short strings.. or long arms... hehe...

wall plane,to put it simply, is the typical plane of the butterfly.. you make a circle right in front of you...

however... I've also heard the side planes refered to as wall planes as well since, in theory, you ahve the wall plane (chest high), the wheel plane (waist high), the upper wall plane (head high), and the ceiling plane (horizontal over the head)...

I guess it depends on who your spinning with and talking to really..


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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kin...

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Posted:plug plug



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i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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bluecat


bluecat

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Posted:


personally i like the fence plane. it makes my fences very smooth


R


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laZy
BRONZE Member since Aug 2003

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Location: Somerset...... England

Total posts: 94
Posted:So would this be a version of the weave?
normal 5 beat
on right hand beat cross over but keep going till u are doing the weave to your left but in the wall plane behing you. (lost you yet?) keep weave going cross it over so that the weave goes from back left to front to back right. Now after doing two or three beats of this weird move, on the transition, get a windmill going for one beat the carry on.

I'm sorry if you can't understand it when I get a camera I'll send in a video.

laZy


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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kin...

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Posted:i think you are describing fwd to rev 5bt weave in the wall plane.

you can also do a btb waistwrap (ww) type variation of this (compared to btb ww because of the one arm behind your back thing): which goes from front left with right arm btb, to all behind to front right with left arm btb. that's mentioned over here.


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
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Posted:sounds to me like a fountain... behind left- front- behind right... throw a windmill in there for fun...

yeah.. definately soudns like a fountain to me...


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JinX


mushroom collector
Location: JHB, South Africa

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Posted:5 bt wall plane how i understand and do it is make your poi go from infront of you to behind but not btb, so 5bt normal then circle in front like half 4b mill then into 5 bt rev on opposite side of the body.

wall plane signifiying if you had to stand close to a wall the poi would pass parrallel to it and not hit the wall.


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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Wall plane, also known as jugglers plane, is like when u have a wall a few feet in front of u and you do your moves in that space b/t u and the wall (except there is no wall). U can do beats in front of behind the back. Another common plane is side plane, where u do moves to the side, like the normal 3-beat weave.

Apologies Rev, but I think a "buzzsaw" can be done in wall plane. Like do normal buzzsaw, then turn trunk to, say the right, and I guess that would be "buzzsaw" in wall plain, well at least from an audiences perspective


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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

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Posted:well I'm, not a juggler so I refrain from 'juggler's planes.'

my reasoning comes from a mroe physics standpoint on planes..seeing as a wall plane would be flat in front, flat in back, (or again depending on who you are discussing with flat on sides) so that the poi move in a straight plane that would be parallel to a wall should you be standing in front of one.. so a buzzsaw does happen in front, but by the very direction the poi move it wouldn't be a 'wall' plane because the motions made by the poi hardly make a wall... the plane that they make is a side plane in front..


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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

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Posted:rev, physics has little to do with what you decide to call plane sets!
juggler's plane is the wall plane - just different names for the same thing innit.

buzzsaw works in all three standard planes sets (although you are obviously restricted in where you can move them to by the fact that a buzzsaw must be between your arms).
'normal' buzzsaw is indeed in the wheel plane (or side plane if you prefer).
but buzzsawed moves can go all around you...
they work very well in the wall plane, even to the point of emulating waistwrap and fountain type moves.
tight as hell examples of wall plane buzzsaws in
a buzzsaw fountain (spun by pk) to be found on the seminal video known as 'how to'.


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

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Posted:sorry coleman.. physics has a lot to do with what I call planes, because what I (and subsequently the people I spin with) rrefer to as planes are distinguished as such by the very geometric planes that I spin in...

I have been shown a buzzsaw in the wall plane, but the typical buzzsaw (i.e. the one that comes in front of your face and out away) is a side wall, in front..

I'm not saying you can't refer to them the way you want to.. I'm just saying that my way doesn't depend on anything other then poi knowledge to understand.. and my planes are universal planes that can be applied to anything because they work from a physics standpoint.. how you ask? well by dividing the planes the way I have, not only are they easy to understand, but they focus on keeping the spinner as a 0,0 coordinate and able to reference all planes and subsequently all moves from said point.. it also alows one to graphically illustrate moves, so that it is easier for some people to grasp..

if you classify the buzzsaw in the wheel plane, then I don't think you do the buzzsaw (or use the same planes) that I would understand.. since I think of wheel plane as being waist high or lower, and the typical buzzsaw is usually about chest/head high...


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bluecat


bluecat

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Posted:eerm. i'm with cole on this one.
his plane-ology seems muuuch easier to understand...


sorry rev .


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DeepSoulSheep
GOLD Member since Sep 2002

DeepSoulSheep

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Location: Berlin, Ireland

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Posted:Firstly my understanding of wheel plane is in a line in front of you to behind you, not only below the waist as if you have wheels . The reason for using planes is to explain the direction you are spinning in relation to where you are facing. Not how high, low or otherwise....

Alternatively we can all just start making our own names for stuff. I vote for ski plane and snowboard plane.....oh and wipeout plane


I live in a world of infinite possibilities.

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

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Posted:rev, if i understand you you have a list of planes, centred at different points?

the way i refer to planes is to the three standard *sets* of planes that most of us use.
the planes are referenced from the orientation of the body (imagine an arrow pointing directly out of your chest).
vertical planes (perpendicular to the ground) that are parallel with the arrow are said to be in the wheel plane set and vertical planes perpendiclar to the arrow belong in the wall plane set.
horizontal planes (parallel with the ground and the arrow) i refer to as in the ceiling plane set.

i understand your way may well be better for specifying where moves are performed but it is not the way planes are generally defined in mathematics (and hence physics).
planes are infinite and do not have a centre so any move in the wheel plane set will not have information attached to it that specifies what height it is spun at.
using physics (maths) notation, you can specify individually say the wheel plane on the left of your body, the wheel plane on the right of your body, and the wheel plane in the centre of your body (the normal buzzsaw plane) but not a height for the centre of the planes (or 'where your hands are' if you prefer).

your explanation would require taking a point on the spinner as the origin and using full 3d plane geometry (which deals with conic sections and the like) to describe where the poi are spinning.
what we do generally when talking about planes is to simplify this case to just recognising the perpendicular plane sets.
your way does not describe planes but rather conic sections - if you do this right it would also allow you to specify at a specific moment how long each poi is, what height your hands are at, what angle to the ground the poi is spinning at and more.

imho, this is far too much information for a discussion on planes and moreover, it creates more questions than it answers (like 'do you consider planes on transitions separate planes?', 'how do you define what "plane" moves with straight arms are in (eg. giant butterfly) when your plane description involves height information?', 'if the ceiling plane is above head height is the lower part of the corkscrew considered to be in that plane or in the wall plane (chest height)?' and so on).

your mixture of referring to individual planes in a set (eg. infront side wall plane) with height of centre position of the spin (wheel plane at waist height, wall plane at chest height) is very confusing.
wheel planes and wall planes are perpendicular to each other in the normal scheme of things and don't suggest a difference in height position of the spin.

now if people understand your definitions, thats great and i can clearly see that it would make explaining moves easier, but it goes beyond just general plane discussion and goes against the normal conventions for referring to perpendicular plane sets.

so call me picky (and make the understatement of the year ) but i maintain (by frowning and stamping my feet lots ) that your reasoning does not come from a physics standpoint.



"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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mrFlibble
SILVER Member since Mar 2003

Ghostbuster
Location: York, UK

Total posts: 455
Posted:someone just draw a really good diagram and post it here beats hundreds of words imo.

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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

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Location: Apparently lost in my ego, USA

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Posted:coleman, acutally planes refer to divisions of amthematical grid.. to give and example the side wall planme would refer to looking the z-axis horizontal and the y-axis vertical from either the +x or -x thus a 'plane'...

the front wall plane would be the x horizontal and the y vertical from the -z axis perspective..

so again.. this is MATH.. and thus PHYSICS...

to put things simply you put the 0,0 as your waist... so wheel planes deal with anything negative on the y... wall planes deal with positives on the y..

this is very simple and very elementary.. you are trying to make things WAY more confusing then they actualyl are..

a corkscrew would be simply using the z axis and the x axis form the y axis perspective.. because if you are going over head the you woul be looking up the positive.. and if you were doing a cork under your feet then you you would be looking down the negative y axis..

the mere fact that you are trying to guage a whole move based on a one planeer description shows your lack of understanding since you can't do that with any transitions or most moves..

again stop trying to make this mroe then what it is..

edit: just to add clarificcation...
plane.. is a 2 dimensional grid..
world.. is a 3 dimensional grid..
so to divde the world into planes and maintain continuity and cohesiveness in graphical terms you have to represent your 2-d planes in terms of a 3-d grid.. thus the planes I presented.. to say that its not math and not physics is borderline ignorance and arrogance despite the facts..


I believe the topic was what are planes? wellplanes to a non-juggler is what I described.. I described planes in the universal since.. to imply that one should use juggling, is bs.. I'm a poi'er not a juggler and I do not need to conform to said juggler descriptions.. they simply don't apply.. I'm in no way juggling..

[ 26. September 2003, 12:10: Message edited by: Rev ]


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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Ooops, I waz just trying to point out that, from and audience perspective, buzzsaws also look good if done to the side

Now if u really want to get technical Then for big arm circles in which the poi or club describes a circle. The arm is the fixed point at the shoulder, the entire upper limb and poi/club describing a circle, in

A. wall plane. In the lateral plane (about the dorso-ventral axis). (1) Right. (2) Left.

B. side plane. In the antero-posterior plane (about the lateral axis) (1)Forward. (2) Backward


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kin...

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Posted:okay rev, i get what you are saying now but it is still overcomplicated and confusing imo.

planes in 'the universal sense' as you so put it are not how you described them.
in maths a plane may be defined anywhere on a grid: equation of a plane
your definitions, like ours, are simplifications of this, reducing the possible sets of planes to those parallel to the three axis planes (see below).
our way of defining plane sets (and it really has bugger all to do with juggling!) is very similar to yours but has no height value and is thus far simpler.

standing on the origin of a 3d axis, with the y going up through your body and head, the x going out to your left and right and the z pointing the same way as your feet (or straight out from your chest), you have:

the wall plane - all planes parallel to the xy plane.
the wheel plane - all planes parallel to the yz plane
the ceiling plane - all planes parallel to the xz plane

there is none of this positive or negative business.
the thing that amazes me is that using your method we get parallel planes with different names?! you said;

"to put things simply you put the 0,0 as your waist... so wheel planes deal with anything negative on the y... wall planes deal with positives on the y.. "

which leads to the conclusion that corkscrew moves above your waist are in the wall plane, cork below the waist would be in wheel plane - its madness i tell you!

like i said before, this is a bit weird - it also raises the question what 'plane' is a giant butterfly on for example?
in this move your hands will travel above and below your waist. by your definition, this suggests it is a mixture of wall and wheel planes...?
its all very ambiguous and i don't see how it helps in the slightest when you're trying to describe the difference between moves spun on planes parallel to the xy plane and moves spun on planes parallel to the yz plane?

"the mere fact that you are trying to guage a whole move based on a one planeer description shows your lack of understanding since you can't do that with any transitions or most moves.."



i was trying to work out how your method worked - i still think that your method tries to give more information than it is suitable for...

what was wrong with hip, shoulder and overhead positions for describing heights of a move? splitting a parallel plane set up into two sets (and giving those names that most other people use for completely conflicting plane orientations) can only complicate matters.

i use planes simply to describe the orientation of the plane that the poi are spinning in relative to your body. it creates three subsets of moves - one horizontal set (ceiling plane moves), and two vertical sets, one set at your sides (wheel plane) and the other set behind and in front of you (wall plane).
it is not a methodology for describing poi moves - it just defines poi plane with reference to body orientation.

example - circles spun in the wall plane (ie. behind and in front of the body). the planes passed through on transitions are ignored (it is called a transition for that precise reason - the poi is transitioning from one plane in the set to another). the point is that before and after the transition, the poi will be spinning in a plane parallel to the previous one.


and finally, just cos i'm a picky bastard:

rev: "I'm a poi'er not a juggler and I do not need to conform to said juggler descriptions.. they simply don't apply.. I'm in no way juggling.."

oxford english dictionary: "juggle /1 v. perform feats of dexterity with objects (esp. by throwing and catching)"

you might not throw and catch especially (if you don't, you should!) but i'd say you're a juggler in denial


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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mrFlibble
SILVER Member since Mar 2003

Ghostbuster
Location: York, UK

Total posts: 455
Posted:hmm i see nobody has taken it upon themselves to draw a really good diagram and post it here
i still maintain that it would be easier and far quicker to understand with a decent diagram
and dont anyone suggest i should do it - it would come out really badly coz i suck at drawing - with a pen or with the mouse


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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
Location: Apparently lost in my ego, USA

Total posts: 1269
Posted:coleman,
I dunno.. I wish I had the graphics program my firend uses to show ya what I mean.. but basically, I don't like the way people divide it up into 3 planes, wall, wheel, and ceiling.. I mean it seems simple, but damn... its soo complicated to explain things sometime.. and granted I do agre the math explanation I'm giving looks complicated, BUT I on;ly did all that to explain why it was from a math standpoint..

you can't explain most moves in 2-d planes, because moves are 3-d, but you can explain which planes they work in with moves and such.. and by having a front wall plane, a rear wall plane, side wall plane, etc.. etc.. its not that I have more planes.. I only have if you want to think of itlike this.. I base my planes as the 10 basic quadrants.. upper, and lower (being wall and wheel) fron back and side (so that's 8) plus a ceiling and a floor..

inevitably your going to encounter things that don't fit well with planer decriptions, but that's because we are working with sprials in 3d, using 2d references..

to sum things up though, I use the positive and negative reference only on the reference axis really.. you know.. positive being front, negative being rear.. things like that.. so believe it or not it makes for easy descriptions in language.. and technically complicated when using numbers.. you know the way math normally is.. long and drawn out explanation of simple stuff..

the only point that I wanted to make was that the mathematical references came from graphing moves.. and I guess the classifications fallmorelike quadrants, but I was only using them 2d which makes them planer instead..


I guess the real point is screw planes.. jsut do it.. j/k

I'm glad you didn't tak offense to the stuff I said.. I forget that not everyone -knows- me and typed word makes it hard to let intonation and such understood...




[ 27. September 2003, 08:28: Message edited by: Rev ]


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laZy
BRONZE Member since Aug 2003

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Location: Somerset...... England

Total posts: 94
Posted:Okay, I lost this thread about half way down, but thanks for answering my questions.

laZy


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