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Forums > Advanced Poi Moves > inversions, insides, atomics, oh my!

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arashi


arashi

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Posted:edit; okay glass just smacked me in the head with the obvious notion that inverted means upside down as well as the definition i went by, in which inverted means; reversed, in a contrary direction. so i am considering changing my terminology, but i have edited this to make sense with the stuff in the trinity thread. i'm just warning you that i may change this post when i get the time to give a flying fart. anyway this will make sense for a little while til i can change things to confuse you again wink



first, the crossed arm inverted weaves, which add two beats to a odd number weave...

the counting on this is pretty tricky, since it comes out of a weave that already has beats. in general for beat counts i go by the # of beats on each side of the crossover, since that way you don't have to be symmetrical to have it make sense. but the crossover happens at the entrance into the inversion so i label the inverted weave by which weave position you came into it from. there's so many variations that this may make sense later.

first, try the 3 beat inverted weave, which is



3 beat weave, but the crossover goes between your arms instead of to the other side. your arms, you will notice, are crossed, so you have to do an split time isolation with both hands so the chains don't wrap your arms.



next try it out of the five beat, which makes a 5 beat inverted weave.



insides are like buzzsaws but are not between your arms, they are between your arms and your body. take a buzzsaw in front, and drop your hands to your sides. now the wicks come under your armpits, and the chains are inside your arms. you can take a bfly or a spider and inside them, so if you do a bfly in front, you bend forward and do it inbetween your arms and your tummy. do them in the side plane, too.

now if you take a buzzsaw, do it inside at your side, and the take it around your back, keeping the same buzzsaw plane direction the whole time, you have a BTB inside. now try that, with an inverted weave instead of a buzzsaw. ouch. wear a cup. or "box" if your british tongue



I have edited this title and post and cut out all the "buzzsaw" terms. Hope this makes more sense now!

EDITED_BY: arashi (1107654577)


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Dragon7
GOLD Member since Oct 2003

Dragon7

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Posted:Written by:
eep! just realised we could have a 'naming moves symposium' at uberpoi!



Only if arashi gets to name one version "toasted nose puppy" wink ubblol


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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

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Posted:arashi- I have the toss for the lead poi... but tossing the second? hrmm.. I'm getting it to roll through pretty smooth.. its just award getting used to rolling a twist through the inversion.. because the whole scneario is like an outside inisde outside hyperloop.. only with my wrists twisting instead of the strings.. so when I come out I have that extra twist in my wrists to undo.. its just awkward keeping the wrist in the positions I need..

rob- you probably are.. imo most of this inversion stuff is pretty basic.. I mean we're getting back to reel, buzzasaw and 3bt weave level stuff.. but I am jealous.. I want cole and arashi to spend ONE Day at my house..
ubbidea


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Rev
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Posted:arashi- aha... you don't have to point your follow hand all funny.. you just push it across.. the lead hand does the funky isolating and rotations.. but after the inital arc the follow hand needs to be on the other side.. whihc is pretty censored.. because it means the follow hand is on the lead side while its poi is still doing the following.. if nix is reading this.. maybe he can help relate it.. because its kinda like the 3bt antispin inversion.. the push through part at least. now if I can only get it forward..

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Richee
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Posted:Antispin-inversion hmm, nice idea I will think about it. If you find it make a new thread, im interested in smile

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Rev
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Rev

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Posted:richee- look at page 4... 4 and 5 posts from the bottom.. the first on is the post I made 14/10/04 08:58 PM... its right after arashi and that rev censored's impression of jerry springer..



edit: b@stard is censored?


EDITED_BY: Rev (1121105646)


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Richee
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Posted:Well, I was thinking and practising and I found some connection between inversion and antispin.

Box
- That is for me inverted inside seem s to be antispinned as well.
When I start doing Wall plane Inward BF Box I found that for example left hand start right side, Poi goes inward. Than there is transition to left side, when hand goes left by the way Poi still spin inward.

3 questions:
a) Box propper description?
b) Same dirrection box, really?
c)Antispin iversion aplication, meen example?


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oli
SILVER Member since Jul 2003

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Posted:Written by: Rev

its that time again folks...

ok.. so if you wanted to invert an antispin.. say an antispin with forward spinning poi.. then what you would need is to spin -through- the inverted part with reverse hand motions to complement the forward spin right?

so lets start on the left side.. the poi spinning forward.. the left hand goes under the right (ala 3bt antispin).. now if you turn your torso to the right as you push the left under (the right poi should be spinning over the left shoulder).. now the tricky part.. get the left to swing over the right arm so that it comes down inside the left bicep and under the right bicep.. the right poi will then come down inside the left bicep .. now your on the right side.. and the right hand pulls over the left arm and pushed under.. turn your torso to the left... the left poi should be spinning over the right shoulder.. the right poi then spins back over the left arm and down inside of the right bicep.. and pushes out to the left (under the left bicep) and pull the left through the inside.. lather... rinse... and lather again you dirty people.. wink j/k...

I don't know how close to the antispin inversion is.. it seems off to me.. but everytime I find a fault.. I find I'm wrong.. so if someone has this already.. help me out.. if not give a spin.. sorry no clip at this time.. my socks fell out of my books sack at school.. so I'll make some new ones when I get the chance... the only thing I can say.. is if you look at the inverted bf weave.. one hand antispins through the inverted part... take a gander at that... again.. this one works by body movement.. I lurve body movement.. make them poi go where they dont fit.. wink



confused

i think i can do an inverted antispin weave... its pretty subtle though (it feels and looks very similar to a normal antiweave) Y.T. showed it to me a while ago.

the best description i can give is this:

start with your arms crossed left over right, poi spinning on the oppostite sides, split time, forewards, wheel plane.

keep your right arm where it is. now move your left are around your right arm (antispin) so it is underneath your right arm. when you do this within an antispin weave the left poi comes around on the left outside to get around, but it can also come around in buzzsaw space (your left hand allways stays pointing to the right, and consquently the left poi is allways to the right of your left arm).

you can do the same thing back again with your right arm, and then put the two halves together. and you get an inverted antiweave.

this is the same kind of inverted weave as the notcoleman3 i reckon (poi dose 2 bts on its opposite side and one in the middle)

sorry if im repeating anything or muddling things up


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Rev
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Posted:oli- the part that comes inside like a buzzsaw is like what I guess a notcoleman is.. so I guess the point is.. its not inverted..

I talked with nix about this for a while and we hammered out both the 3bt and the 5bt.. but I still think there's some shadyness going on..

the 3bt runs like this.. take fwd poi, reverse motions.. on the left side, instead of bringing the left under and acrossto the right side.. bring it under, and around the right arm, dropping into the buzzsaw from above.. it should roll fairly nicely.. like normal spin.. o.O if you take thw poi spinning fwd, but on opposite sides.. right over left.. and take the left poi and and enter an inversion that exits to the right side (the side it entered from) you get pretty close to the motion..

the 5bt runs a little different.. but I have a large problem with the 5bt.. because the 5bt is just an inside entered normal spin inversion entered from the outside... (and I don't think they should be called 5bt inversions anyway.. I think the ones me and arashi call 6 bts are the 5bt inversions.. the others are just the 3bt and maybe 4bt.. whihc is why they fit in a 4bt moves so easily and because the '6bt' inversion leads with the 5bt hand after 5bt twist.. like the 3bt inversion leads with the 3bt hand.. but now I've got a rambling aside.. so back to the point..)

so I'm still trying to put things in persepctive on antispin inversions... and the only thing I can think is that is has something to do with insides.. because insides are like the other outside.. they are the polar opposites.. so when you spin antispin, you are spinning the right side of the weave on the left side.. or the left inside of the weave on the left outside.. and when you look at it that way.. it seems only natural that the '5bt' antispin ivnersion uses an inside entered inversion.. and I guess depending on how you frame it you can get the '3bt' antispin inversion to look like an inside inversion too.. but thats harder to see.

another thing that is funky is positioning.. depending on how the poi are facing.. determines whether its normal spin or antispin.. depending on how you are facing.. also determines a normal spin from an antispin..

so now we enter an problem similar to atomics.. atomics blur same direction and opposite directions.. I mean you can move through any, and or all sd, sd atom, op, op atom.. and some motions require you to pass between a few of them.. well now with spin and antispin we kinda get the same thing..


all this may make you want to chalk it up to just being insides.. but its no more inside work, than the other outside.. as in.. I'm no more spinning the left inside part of the weave on the left outside than I am the right outside part on the left outside.. but because of that relationship (left inside and right outside) it means we have two ways to flip the anti-spin and normal spin.. you can flip it like the 3bt inversion does.. and get same direction by facing the other outside plane.. or you can get same direction like the 5bt does by working off the inisde plane.. essentialy the difference between one and the other is all in the wrist..


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bluecat


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Posted:ubblol

fill your house with americans and londoners and learn years of atom theory in two minutes!

i recommend it thouroughly
biggrin


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oli
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Posted:rev i think i follow some of what you say, you kinda have to sort of separate and force the roll bit to exit on the other side it feels like it wants to?

Me train running low on soul coal
They push+pull tactics are driving me loco
They shouldn't do that no no no

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[Nx?]
BRONZE Member since Nov 2001

[Nx?]

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Posted:yo,

I posted some atom/box breakdowns here

im not really understanding anything you guys are sayinf about inversions, but i liked olis desciption of the antispin inversion.

damm uber poi is on, thats the only reason im posting. lol

T


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Rev
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Rev

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Posted:Written by: oli

rev i think i follow some of what you say, you kinda have to sort of separate and force the roll bit to exit on the other side it feels like it wants to?


if you are talking the 3bt, then yeah.. it is very forced on one side but just rolls right out the other..


nx- you can't follow the descriptions.. then what's up with your posts on page 5 saying that it all makes sense? o.O

blue- kiss my censored ubblol wink hug :turns green and runs off: (kind alike the hulk only not big nor bulky)


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Dragon7
GOLD Member since Oct 2003

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Posted:Is the not coleman5 at : 1.06 ?

Or 1.24?


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[Nx?]
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[Nx?]

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Posted:yeah, page 5 was ok, its just pages 6 to15 that baffle me smile

T wave


This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
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Richee
BRONZE Member since Jan 2002

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Posted:
You can take it, follow the ball smile

light,

:R


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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

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Posted:Written by: Dragon7

Is the not coleman5 at : 1.06 ?

Or 1.24?



if you are talking about the little video i posted, i don't have it here with me.

but it's easy to work out - if the pattern has 5 beats before it repeats and it goes inside for one beat (the 3rd beat), its the notcoleman5 smile

if my memory serves, the only other pattern on that video that has 5bts is the barrelroll crossover thing inb a 3bt weave - that is the inverted 3bt weave from the first post in this thread.

i like atoms now i know what planes i'm supposed to be using biggrin

*bows to arashi* hug2

i definitely reckon butterfly inversions (or at least the bf version of the barrel roll crossover) are loads easier in trinity (or even box) planes shrug


cole. x


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Rev
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Rev

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Posted:actually cole.. I found that butterfly inversions are loads easier when you turn your shoulders right.. if you have one shoulder higher thena the other it makes the whole process MUCH easier.. but then again.. if you are doing a splittime butterfly weave, then the butterfly should be crossing front and back, not top and bottom.. since the sametime inversion crosses top and bottom, it only makes sense to turn that sideways to make it splitime..


now I've decided to post some stuff here on inversions.. look for video next month sometime if someone doesnt beat me to it.. I've loosened up some of the definitions I use to make them fit with arashi's more, but I really think we need to alter one of the other definitions we've been using..

inversion (0 degree crossover)- buzzsaw
I think that one is simple enough.. there is no crossover.. they are just inverted and right next to each other..

inversion (1rst degree)-
these were called 3bt inversions.. and mistakenly also called 5bt inversions.. to see why I say these are both merely 3bt inversions, lets look at it done in the wallplane.. lets say we ahve a clockwise spin to our wallplane.. if you do the fwd 3bt inversion on the right side.. you get the left ahnd over the right forearm and up in the buzzsaw. (left over right 1rst degree, like a 3bt weave, leading with the 3bt lead hand) if you take the 3bt reverse inversion.. you get right hand under left forearm and around into buzzsaw.. (right under left, 1rst degree, like a 3bt, leading with the 3bt hand)

either way you end up with the same 1rst degre crossover.. left hand on right side.. right hand on left side.. this mistakenly got taken as the 5bt as well.. because if you exit to the wrong side, you could use the inversion in a somewhat 5bt fashion..
for example.. lets go back to our clockwise wallplane.. if you do the rev 3bt inversion, but then turn to the right side (fwd side) instead of bringing it to the left (reverse side) you get what was called the 5bt inversion.. but its still the same first degree inversion.. just exited across.. why bring this up?


inversion (2nd degree)-
this I feel is the true 5bt inversion, but arashi calls them 6bt.. it still onyl does 5bts outside the inversion.. but this one demonstrates the extra twist of having a higher beat base.. for these inversions get into a second degree twist.. (hands on same, but hoooked around the other hand).. so if we go back to our clockwise wallplane example.. the fwd version could involve the right hand going under the left hand and back over the left hand, leading around the right forearm into the inversion.. this is the same hand that leads the 5bt weave, and in the same natural timing for the weave, and with the right amount of twist for the weave..

same for the reverse version, whihc goes left over right hand, back under right hand, and around the left forearm into the inversion.. I know this is hard to follow for some.. I wanted to wait until I could put vids with al of these to show what I'm talking about, but I really don't feel the discussion should wait that long..




now I've thought about this for a while.. we can use same and cross side led inversions.. because the second degree ones are also cross side inversions.. and I'm not sure if we can use 3bt and 5bt. because those were kinda wrong.. and led to confusions for obvious reasons.. so do we move to simply refering to them by the degree? that's the only real distinguishmen, but it leaves open things like exiting a first degree inversion to the other side? unless you say 5bt 1rst degree ivnersion vs a 5bt 2nd degree inversion? how can we make these things clearer?


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Dragon7
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Posted:Oi thanks cole smile

Dantana sent me a video awhile back, it was a 5bt butterfly but it was semi iso. And it goes straight into a butterfly loop that connects at the top, and turns into a odd beat butterfly loop (inside out inversion). Lots of variation and flavor wink in those ones smile

Rev any chance of some clips?

Im with nx help and where is the blunt smilie :blunt: wink


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Richee
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Posted:Antispin:



I have a question. If antispinnig is technique when hand goes opposite direction than Poi, do it meen that that the hand motion used to be circular?



Edit: Because than antispin inversion seem to me more real than.

EDITED_BY: Richee (1122386416)


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Rev
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Rev

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Posted:I'm not sure what to make of your qeustions.. antispin works off of concentric spinning.. like flowers.. for example.. flowers have 4 poi beats to every one flower beat.. so there is a difference between the move circle and the poi circles.. hence the concentric spinning.. so if that's what you mean by 'hand circles,' then yes..

I have no idea what "Because than antispin inversion seem to me more real than" is supposed to mean... maybe its a bad translation, but that's an incomplete sentence.. shrug


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DeepSoulSheep
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DeepSoulSheep

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Posted:YOu calling them flowers now? wink

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Richee
BRONZE Member since Jan 2002

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Posted:Well, I saw you Rev doing BF inversion on short clip. I found it much easier split time and bit isolated, but I found as well that that hand move weirdly.



I start BF inversion wall plane, Inward BF, concentrated on my left,

a) my left is on right side when Poi start inversion(why?)

b) During the transition left hand move to left side from right side, when left Poi go around my right hand in inversion.

c) Usualy Poi tangle, just more split time and more isolation help.



So what I do not understand is the beginning of inverted BF.

I think Inverted BF is antispinned too,

my left told me smile,



That's why do I ask if antispinnig is circular movement. If yes, that hands during antispinnig are doing circle.

If not only, than can be antispinnig when hand move against expected movement. You know, like when you let Poi go right and by the way let hand go left,

against Poi direction?



OK, I can't do BF inversion but do not understand hand movement?

I still can neither imagine nor do antispinned inversion?



Hints or tips(descriptions)?



:R

EDITED_BY: Richee (1122455727)


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Rev
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Rev

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Posted:the butterfly inversion is much easier when done split time.. and somewhat isolated.. I also find that its easier if you lean your shoulders so the lead poi goes over a lower arm than the follow poi..

also, it helps to turn a little in the direction that you are going.. so turn a little towards the side the lead hand is on until the lead hand comes through the buzzsaw.. then turn towards the follow hand.. it maximizes the room you have to work with..

the butterfly inversion doesnt antispin, but the butterfly weave inversion does antispin.. antispin doesnt come in with butterfly stuff until you weave... otherwise the hands move in the same direction as the poi.. when you butterfly weave though, you get both hands moving same direction and both poi moving opposite directions.. so one will have to antispin.. but that's all gravy once you get the butterfly inversion..

to get an idea on the butterfly inversion.. take your hands and put them out in front like you were doing a butterfly... take the right hand over the left so that the right wrist is on top of the left wrist.. holding that position, move it down and towards you until your hands are by your chest palm up.. now push away from you and up a little.. and it should return you back to the original position with the right wrist over the left wrist.. that's pretty much how the sametime bf inversion passes.. but as you noted, splittime and islated a little makes that loads easier..

now the trick is to do that same pattern in the weave.. which means instead of pushing away from you in that last part.. you're going to put it over a shoulder.. at least in the beginning... it'll help you take this simple base and turn it into something a little more complicated..


as far as hand circles go... most things use hand circles.. buzzsaws, butterflies, longarm, etc.. are exceptions.. look at something like a longarm weave (which only has one center of spin) versus a normal weave, which has two (shoulder <-> wrist, and wrist <-> poihead) this is why a longamr weave cannot be antispun, but a weave can.. so if you want to look at antispin as involving hand circles going opposite of poi circles, then you've pretty much got the concept.. wink



I had 3x what I've typed so far typed up on antispin inversion.. but I deleted it because I don't have videos to explain what I'm saying and I confused myself trying to explain it all out.. sorry.. I'm getting a cam next month, so I'll be able to get this stuff on film and we can discuss from there.. but I'll leave you with this:

if the antispin weave comes across as an inside weave to you.. then all you have to do to invert it is use inside led inversions... its like using an inside led inversion from the outside.. whihc makes sense, since your arms are moving in the same direction that they would if you were spinning inside.. dont think too hard on that.. you'll end up like me.. and no one will ever understand you.. wink


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VampyricAcid
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Posted:ok i read all this, but still... what is a buzzsaw weave???

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spiralx


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Posted:Each hand does over-under-inside so that it's like a weave where you swap which hand is on top through doing a quick buzzsaw.

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coleman
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Posted:vampyricacid - there's a video in here that shows it.

arashi's very first post is an excvellent description imho.

is this post useless?
maybe... smile


cole. x


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Analemma


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Posted:maybe ....

maybe not

grouphug

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Drudwyn


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Posted:oh right... Mind bogglingly complicated stuff. Damn this firewall and it's distaste for all things movie related. I wish I could see the videos what's going on cos then I could understand what the hell's going on! Right, I have no idea what's going on, and I don't think I'll be able to do anything like that for ages... but I've realised I could do the buzzsaw weave ages ago... fun!

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Richee
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Posted:Question:



Inverted inside, name, example, reality?

EDITED_BY: Richee (1125846334)


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[Nx?]
BRONZE Member since Nov 2001

[Nx?]

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Posted:yeah, do a watermill, then invert entrances and exits between your arms, inverted inside, hey presto!

T wave


This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti

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