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Forums > Advanced Poi Moves > inversions, insides, atomics, oh my!

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arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2363
Posted:edit; okay glass just smacked me in the head with the obvious notion that inverted means upside down as well as the definition i went by, in which inverted means; reversed, in a contrary direction. so i am considering changing my terminology, but i have edited this to make sense with the stuff in the trinity thread. i'm just warning you that i may change this post when i get the time to give a flying fart. anyway this will make sense for a little while til i can change things to confuse you again wink



first, the crossed arm inverted weaves, which add two beats to a odd number weave...

the counting on this is pretty tricky, since it comes out of a weave that already has beats. in general for beat counts i go by the # of beats on each side of the crossover, since that way you don't have to be symmetrical to have it make sense. but the crossover happens at the entrance into the inversion so i label the inverted weave by which weave position you came into it from. there's so many variations that this may make sense later.

first, try the 3 beat inverted weave, which is



3 beat weave, but the crossover goes between your arms instead of to the other side. your arms, you will notice, are crossed, so you have to do an split time isolation with both hands so the chains don't wrap your arms.



next try it out of the five beat, which makes a 5 beat inverted weave.



insides are like buzzsaws but are not between your arms, they are between your arms and your body. take a buzzsaw in front, and drop your hands to your sides. now the wicks come under your armpits, and the chains are inside your arms. you can take a bfly or a spider and inside them, so if you do a bfly in front, you bend forward and do it inbetween your arms and your tummy. do them in the side plane, too.

now if you take a buzzsaw, do it inside at your side, and the take it around your back, keeping the same buzzsaw plane direction the whole time, you have a BTB inside. now try that, with an inverted weave instead of a buzzsaw. ouch. wear a cup. or "box" if your british tongue



I have edited this title and post and cut out all the "buzzsaw" terms. Hope this makes more sense now!

EDITED_BY: arashi (1107654577)


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
Location: Apparently lost in my ego

Total posts: 1269
Posted:Dut..
Your confusing yourself man...

1- most of what you call inversions.. Especially if you are using ven diagrams.. Is wrong... The ven diagrams will mess things up because the miss the point of what's going on completely... And I can tell its messing you up becausee you're refering to things as inverted that I never said nor fit with what I described

2- legs aren't a seperate issue.. Legs are part of the body... You go between them and your doing utl/btl stuff... As far as inside outside and whatnot is concerned the legs are the body..

3- your last sections show that you didn't follow what I presented at all...

I'm sorry...

The body represents a line that is parallel with the plane the poi are in... The arms also represent a line that is parallel with the plane the poi are in.. The division there of results in the 7 planar strata as you move from one end of the spectrum to the other (ie one side of the body to the other) and thus accounts for any turning or angle with that simple division...

The only thing that works different is the vertical planes. But they are reduced to the 3 strata that we use most often..

We mainly stay with a twobody problem (ie the 3 strata) which is why insides act like opposite outsides...

I'd go into more.. But i don't want to confues people... I'm sorry you didn't follow what I was talking about... I'd be more than happy to discuss it further via im or email since I'm out of town and won't be back til monday.. That would keep us from confusing others and give you chance to ask more direct questions...


More useless information courtesy of Rev...
Confusing the masses, one post at a time...
"Obviously, you're not a golfer.."- The Dude
"Buy the ticket... Take the ride..." -Raoul Duke
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Orbit
SILVER Member since Dec 2003

Orbit

enthusiast


Total posts: 270
Posted:One of these days somebody's gonna have to show me all this, because as I said in the Spherc thread, my brain hurts when I try to think about WTF y'all are talking about. Dammit, I knew there was a reason I shoulda chatted with SpiralX when I was in Londres...

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arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2363
Posted:ubbrollsmile
rev i finally think we understand each other, now once i get back from london i'll know what this whole anitspin business is referring to and we'll be rocking the next uberdimension.

thank you for clarifying the distinctions and pointing out the weaknesses in my explanations..." And so is talking about an inverted 'plane' though one can make these distinctions correctly, they also lead to valid interpretations that are invalid inversions..." that's the fuzzy area i wasn't quite able to get around. both are the same math, different notation. but in atomics you'll see why i divided them up that way. it's all in the inside crossovers...

hopefully all this misunderstanding will enable me to be more clear in the future.


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted:this is all making *tonnes* more sense now! bounce2



incidentally, i think edits made to starting post make it 100% clearer and coupled with the crossover exercises posted on spherc, make a much more complete and rounded introduction to all of these ideas.





i is wondering...

is there any way of producing a nice little picture with shaded areas to show either the 7 stage plane spectrum or if that is not possible (cos i think for each poi it may depend on where the other poi/arm is at any particular time) 3 little pictures with shaded areas for the more practical 3 stage spectra related to weaves?





that last load of stuff rev posted was not only clear and concise (maybe you should post via your phone all the time dude... wink) but filled in a lot of the hazy areas that were in this topic (i.e. the fundamental and essential definitions of what outside, inside, buzzsaw and inverted are).



[i admit i'm still a little hazy about what the relationship between planes has to be for them to be fully or half inverted.

i don't really understand what 'half inverted' means - if it is a relationship between two planes i don't get why if one is not inverted, the other would not be...]





i think before we go into the idea of poles (i recommend everyone read arashi's link on spherc first and try the crossover exercises), the only thing that could help more would be an example description (or video in a perfect world) of a weave for each of those 3 chunk spectra.





and i was going to ask a question about how i think crossovers relate to pole switches but rather than go off rambling on what might be nonsense (;)) i think i'll wait till someone presents that theory and clarify then if i need to ubbangel





rev - cheers for saying out loud that antispin weave is a top/bottom crossover.

i noticed that difference myself this weekend but i doubted that i was doing it properly if my crossovers weren't exactly the same as a normal 3bt.

confused myself lots by trying to make antispin weave a front/back crossover and headed straight back into the problems i originally had when trying to fathom this move (i.e. poi always hit arms on crossovers).

it makes complete sense that wallplane is the easier place to do them with that explanation - monkey had said it was easier in wallplane but couldn't say why.

in fact, i think your post up there (the one on the 15th) is the most complete and accurate description of the planes and crossover timing of an antispin weave we could possibly get (with the descriptions we have right now) - i said, nice one bruvvaaaaaaaa wink hug2



*trying very hard to both get all this right in my head and to learn how to spin stuff related to it before july*



biggrin





grouphug





cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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[Nx?]
BRONZE Member since Nov 2001

[Nx?]

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both

Total posts: 3749
Posted:arrgh!!

arashi is commin to london!!

when, I might have to fly back for the weekend...

T wave


This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti

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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
Location: Apparently lost in my ego

Total posts: 1269
Posted:I hate to throw a lot into this email (since some of it is a bit offtopic...ie antispin) but I'm going to do the best I can to keep it together...

First- arashi.. glad we're in agreement... Let the uber-rockin' commense.. Lol... I still have a lot of catching up to do man.. Just the same direction inversions have me so swamped that I've put antispin, atomics, and other nonsense on the backburrner for a while.. Because.. Well.. I suck..

Second- cole... I didn't say half inverted, arashi did in the atomics post I think... So if you are referring to my post those should (I thought they were, could be wrong) be half insides.. Those are a vague area, which is why I replaced them with buzzsaws in the second diagram.. Essentially you only have outside and inside planes.. If you take the left outside plane and drag it towards the right, it stays outside until it crosses the midpoint on the body, then its inside on the right half... Same with the right outside plane going the other way (outer on right half, inside on the left half)... You also have to realize that outside and inside are only realy related to the arm that's holding the poi.. This is where you get the half-insides... Because between the arms on the left side (like a buzzsaw parallel with the side plane but to the left of the body) is inside for one poi(the outside arm) and outside for the other poi (the inside arm)... Same goes for the between the arms on the right side..(like above but to the right of the body)... so that's why I defined half inside as I did..
This is how the spectrum falls... Either arm can go in place of the arm sections.. This is from left to right.
Out|Arm|half|Arm|in|Body|in|Arm|half|Arm|out

Thus the buzzsaw spaces become like this:
Out|Arm|buzz|Arm|in|Buzz|in|Arm|buzz|Arm|out

When you ar standing with your arms at your sides you have this:
Out|Arm|in|Body|in|Arm|out

So you can weave (like normal weave) between out and in:
Out|arms|in or in|arms|out
Because both arms collapse the half inside section..
Out|arm|half|arm|in (=out|arm|buzz|arm|in)
Is what you are really weaving through but by keeping the arms together and not using the space between it collapses to the smaller diagram above..

Its probably better seen in the normal weave
Which looks like this when collapsed:
Out|body|out
which is kinda misleading since this already is equivalent to its semi-expanded form:
Out|buzz|out
the reason being that
Out|body|out = out|arms|out
Thus the expansion:
Out|buzz|out = out|arm|buzz|arm|out

But we don't want to use that description in the full spectrum because it will lead to misunderstanding I think.
Out|arm|half|arm|in|arm|buzz|arm|in|arm|half|arm|out
Which gets confusing bc half-insides are buzzsaws too.
Out|arm|buzz|arm|in|arm|buzz|arm|in|arm|buzz|arm|out
Not that those are 'wrong' just that they can be veery misleading... I hope none of this is confusing the issue more... I'm just trying to throw out as much as I can so that you can build a better picture.. If you know how it 'can' be interpreted and how those 'can' go wrong, then I think you have a good idea, by remainder, of what we're discussing.. I can see what this looks like in full screen so I can only hope it comes out well.. If it confuses you, just ignore it..

Third- Now this has all been discussion of how to divide the planes...from side to side.. Or front to back.. Any vertical set... The horizontal planes don't have the body... So they are, when fully expanded:
Top|arm|buzz|arm|bottom =out|arm|half|arm|out

I want to move a bit more into the inversions.. Inversions are a relation between the planes.. So it can only occur when you have two contrary planes that overlap (half-insides and insides).. Now atomics may be different.. You may be able to get half inversions in atomics, because the overlap of the plane with one that is perpendicular, will still get the overlap (for one) without necessarily having the other inverted.. I'm not positive on that.. But I can picture it, so I figure that's what arashi means.. However the normal inversions that we are discussing cannot be half done... They are parallel not perpendicular in their relation so if one overlaps, they both do.. You can try to do an inversion with one hand only, but as you exit the inversion, you'll be in a straight jacket.. Crap.. I'm getting ahead of myself again.. If that's confusing, scrap it for now.. We can come back to it later... I don't know how much you guys know about straight jackets... And I can't link to a thread (hint hint anyone).. Suffice to say if you go to spherc and look up straight jacket, the above should make sense (is the wiki up? If not its in the poidia forum)

Anyway.. Point being all we do are full inversions when we do these same direction things.. Inversions must occur in a buzzsaw space (I know I've said all this but I want to go through it again) because when you have a buzzsaw you have adjacent contrary planes.. Granted we kinda push them together into essentially one plane but as far as everything is concerned they are next to each other..
[Code]
(r)
\
--L|R--
\
(l)

Pretend thats a buzzsaw and that the right poi (r) and the left poi (l) are actually spinning in a plane parallel with the | in between the right hand R and the left hand L

Now just overlapping our planes will still be a buzzsaw... And you will get a hand over hand roll.. This is why I think a lot of people misunderstood inversions.. (Amongst other things).. So what I want to stress is that the poi need to be off 180 degrees..so that there is a crossing at the wrists, like a tangle (airwrap) does at the string..
[Code]
(l)
|
R-|-
---L
|
(r)

Now what I'm probably failing to convey here is that the left poi is going over the right arm (thus the string | over the arm -- ) and the right poi is under the left arm.. (Thus just the arm) that is a buzzsaw that it overlapping planes.. And getting the hand over hand roll.. There is no wrist tangle... And thus no inversion..

I'm sorry I can't even attempt a code at an inversion.. So monday, I'll see about getting into paint and making a horrid pic wink

Fourth- poles.. I've been thinking about how to address this for a while.. And I'm not sure if I can come up with a good example.. So I ask that you bare with me and ask lots of questions if need be... My connection is Slow and unreliable, but I do have one...

I'm going to describe buzzsaws here.. NOT inversions.. Because I want something we can all do... Ok..
So the fwd buzzsaw will be one polar facing.. And the rev buzzsaw will be our other polar facing..
now to get an idea of how we flip poles.. I want you to do a wallplane clockwise buzzsaw with the right hand out and the left hand in.. This is like a reverse buzsaw turned sideways... Now from here I want you to go into a clockwise wallpane buzzsaw with the right hand in and the left hand out.. This is like a fwd buzzsaw.. Moving between these two positions flips the 'pole'... The rotation is the same, but the poles are flipped...
If you want to imagine that you have the earth in your hands, and that the poi rotation is the earths rotation.. Then initially, magnetic south (the south pole) is in the right hand... However, after the transition, the magnetic poles of the earth would have flipped because the left hand would now have magnetic south (the former north pole)

We use flipping of poles a lot... Fwd to a rev butterfly/ttn, switching sides during a weave, thru-wraps are prime examples since they don't continue wrapping (and thus work like they do) after the pole is flipped..

I've been typing for a while, so I'm going to go get breakfast.. (Good thing I have a keyboard on this thing..) I just want to leave one final note about antispin... I'm not sure about this but a lot of antispin stuff is perpendicular to normal stuff.. The crossovers are perpendicular.. The inversions are perpendicular.. I'm not sure what any of it means.. It could just be coincidence.. But I'm trying to grasp some key that might unlock more of its secrets.. I also want to interject that I really don't think that antispin is 'inside' because you can antispin insides..

Let me know if you guys are still following me on all this.. The fun stuff is coming up, now that the basics are down.. And to think.. It only took 11pages wink


More useless information courtesy of Rev...
Confusing the masses, one post at a time...
"Obviously, you're not a golfer.."- The Dude
"Buy the ticket... Take the ride..." -Raoul Duke
"FEMA has never done catastrophe planning..."-Michael Brown

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Richee
BRONZE Member since Jan 2002

HOP librarian
Location: Prague

Total posts: 1841
Posted:quote Rev:

1. So you can rewrite the spectrum like this:
Outside|buzzsaw|inside|buzzsaw|inside|buzzsaw|outside

2.Inversions must take place in a buzzsaw space.

3. As far as islations go.. its going to feel isolated, because there really isnt any pull at the points.
-----------------------



1. I think no, because there is "only one" Buzzsaw plane going throught the body.

2.Nope. About inversion and inversions. "Inversion" is between two planes.
Inverted plane is discutable,
becase Poi in a weave motion just pass (they can stop there anyway).
Its pole (Rev nice word smile not de plane.

3. Disagree. "to Isolate" is technique when you try to get balance between head and hand. BUT you never get there, because "it will stop then". So it meens "there is a pull".

BTN = Buzzsaw = De plane

Rev, Dut - You other post, is too long, hope mine not as well smile,

light,

:R


POI THEO(R)IST

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MikeIcon
GOLD Member since Mar 2003

MikeIcon

Pooh-Bah
Location: Philadelphia, PA - USA

Total posts: 2109
Posted:::Peeks into this thread and sees entirely too many posts over 1000 words and quickly exits::

Let's turn those old bridges we crossed into ashes.
We'll blaze a new trail,
and torch the rough patches.

-Me

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Dut
SILVER Member since Mar 2002

lurker
Location: Nashville, TN

Total posts: 380
Posted:Rev, thanks for trying to help me understand, but apparently my over-complication wasn't over-complicated enough to let you see where i'm going (which is left field and has to do with insides only, not inverted spinning). i left out the poi strings, which if included makes up to 5 bodies, none of which are required to be parallel to the spin planes unless you're specifying that for illustration. but for such an illustration, if your arm is perpendicular to the ground as an obstacle, if your poi are at bottom of arc, arm-body-arm is a 3 body problem. if your arms are pointing down and the poi are at the tops of the arcs, you've added an extra obstacle and an extra hole so it's string-arm-body or arm-string-body for half the rotation with either poi, no matter which way your hand is facing (inversion wise) -- aka a 5 body problem.

think of somehow lining all strings/arms/bodies perpendicular to the ground so you can shoot a horizontal line through all 5 obstacles. here's what i think you mean --
outside: string string arm arm body
buzzsaw: arm string string arm (optional body)
??: string arm arm string body
half inside: string arm string arm body
inside arm arm string string body

1.string-arm-arm-string-body (??) seems like a good definition of 'half inside' i think, but it also applies to string-arm-string-arm-body. god i hate math. (??) has to be the 'two half insides buzzsaw' you mentioned, but lumping them that way is forced because of your spectrum model, not because there's any direct linear relationship between all these. and this's only for ones that don't cross anywhere... is arm-string-body-string-arm (think of pinching the poi heads under your armpits and looking at it from the side) "double half inside"? putting your body in the way might sometimes be half-btb, but since you treat insides the same as btb, this makes sense.

2. legs have 1 outside and 2 insides, actually, depending if you're treating them as seperate entites or as part of the body. i could replace -body above with -leg-leg, or i could replace -body with only one -leg and put the other one on the front as leg- (or anywhere in between arms and strings in my 2D world). which is why you're right, they are a completely seperate issue. wink

3. i actually did know what my numbers meant, but couldn't defend why i thought your 7 strata sounded like too few planes for considering both poi in motion at once. for half of each beat, you have to consider the string of the other poi as a mobile obstacle, which i'm sure you know instinctively.

other than that, i'd like to see what else you can consider 'inverted' besides the buzzsaw (inside or outside version) with your outlook. so i'll email ya. wink

-- dut


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Dut
SILVER Member since Mar 2002

lurker
Location: Nashville, TN

Total posts: 380
Posted:rev -- doh. i forgot to refresh before i replied. wow you posted a bunch that seems to say exactly what i said.. wink i see what you're saying about insides and why your spectra are semi-contradictory, but any chart that has 3 optional arms on each sides is hopefully a LOT more confusing than what i wrote... not that i think there's anything wrong with confusing myself and others. i do it all the time. lol. thanks man.



-- dut

EDITED_BY: Dut (1116454855)


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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
Location: Apparently lost in my ego

Total posts: 1269
Posted:Richee-
I hate to be an @$$ mate... But not no but hell no...

1- a buzzsaw is spinning with two planes facing each other... Buzzsaw is not just a move that is in the center of the body.. By your reasoning, a wallplane weave isn't a weave because a weave is a move done from side plane to side plane..

Take your buzzsaw... Move it left until the right hand is past the left side of the body.. Now bring it down... Now flip the pole... Check it out.. Those are the two buzzsaws between the left outside and left inside planes.. Tada..

2- inversions are not between two planes.... I don't know what crack your smoking... This is precisely what I'm talking about when I say there are valid descriptions that lead to invalid results...

3-FYI- to isolate is to move the center of rotation to a point on the string.. The degree of isolation determines when, where, and how much force there is during the swing... So you don't always feel a pull throughout the swing of the poi... I'm not saying there isn't pull, obviously the poi is still swinging... I'm saying you don't feel it..

Sorry richee man.. Try and read some of my posts.. Or ask some of the other people if I type too cryptic... Right now your just skimming them and its leading you to problems.. So far you've been refering to insides and buzzsaws as inversions in your posts... So i don't think you're on the same page as the rest of us...

Dut- here is hope this helps you

Outside- string string arm arm (body)
Inside- arm arm string string (body)
Halfinside- arm string string arm (body)
Buzzsaw- arm string string arm


More useless information courtesy of Rev...
Confusing the masses, one post at a time...
"Obviously, you're not a golfer.."- The Dude
"Buy the ticket... Take the ride..." -Raoul Duke
"FEMA has never done catastrophe planning..."-Michael Brown

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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
Location: Apparently lost in my ego

Total posts: 1269
Posted:Richee-
I hate to be an @$$ mate... But not no but hell no...

1- a buzzsaw is spinning with two planes facing each other... Buzzsaw is not just a move that is in the center of the body.. By your reasoning, a wallplane weave isn't a weave because a weave is a move done from side plane to side plane..

Take your buzzsaw... Move it left until the right hand is past the left side of the body.. Now bring it down... Now flip the pole... Check it out.. Those are the two buzzsaws between the left outside and left inside planes.. Tada..

2- inversions are not between two planes.... I don't know what crack your smoking... This is precisely what I'm talking about when I say there are valid descriptions that lead to invalid results...

3-FYI- to isolate is to move the center of rotation to a point on the string.. The degree of isolation determines when, where, and how much force there is during the swing... So you don't always feel a pull throughout the swing of the poi... I'm not saying there isn't pull, obviously the poi is still swinging... I'm saying you don't feel it..

Sorry richee man.. Try and read some of my posts.. Or ask some of the other people if I type too cryptic... Right now your just skimming them and its leading you to problems.. So far you've been refering to insides and buzzsaws as inversions in your posts... So i don't think you're on the same page as the rest of us...

Dut- here is hope this helps you

Outside- string string arm arm (body)
Inside- arm arm string string (body)
Halfinside- arm string string arm (body)
Buzzsaw- arm string string arm

Buzzsaw doesn't have body included because body is irrelevant..

String arm string arm = nothing.. This is just a variation on outside.. This is what happens when we thread either in a weave or in a ttn..

String arm arm string = nothing.. This is just a reel... This is alternating planes.. Same whether outside and outside or outside and inside..

Email me sometime... You can ask me more specific questions.. And I can respond faster than these boards... It takes forever for them to load..


So does someone want to volunteer to help richee out (I'm tapped on explanations and don't really know how to explain things further and my posts are too long) and tomorrow we can move on to the fun stuff..


More useless information courtesy of Rev...
Confusing the masses, one post at a time...
"Obviously, you're not a golfer.."- The Dude
"Buy the ticket... Take the ride..." -Raoul Duke
"FEMA has never done catastrophe planning..."-Michael Brown

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arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2363
Posted:i lump the "buzzsaw" and "non tangled insides" in with inversions, and i think you are putting it as inside, which i fully understand, as they could be seen either way. try this for me... do an bfly airwrap into and out of each of these different areas of the spectrum, and tell me if the math translates through to your definitions; i put them in my way because of the way the airwraps mirror each other with the entrances and exits (ok that's an oversimplification but let's see if it works). maybe after i read all this about 8 more times i'll see your reasoning and change my mind, esp. once i get the coding with that arm/in/buzz spectrum stuff. until then, again, i'm glad someone besides spiral is understanding me wink and thanks for the help.

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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Richee
BRONZE Member since Jan 2002

HOP librarian
Location: Prague

Total posts: 1841
Posted:
Rev - Ok, just for you:

I saw it that way. There is ONE buzzsaw plane going throught the body. And two inverted a side still betweed the hands. If you change your position into wall plane you can add inside plane and outside plane (I can inmagine inside plane staing in wheel plane(betweeen hand and inverted??) ). So now?

saw this:

http://www.homeofpoi.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=4186
br>
light,

:R


POI THEO(R)IST

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted:wow.

the bay doors are open people... wink

==============================================
quick clarification first:

Written by: rev

half insides.. Those are a vague area, which is why I replaced them with buzzsaws in the second diagram.. Essentially you only have outside and inside planes.. If you take the left outside plane and drag it towards the right, it stays outside until it crosses the midpoint on the body, then its inside on the right half...



did you miss a bit off the start that says "keep the right poi in the right outside plane."?
if you didn't miss that bit off and it means exactly what it says, it would suggest that once a left poi goes anywhere to the right of centre, it can only be in an inside (or halfinside/buzz) plane which doesn't make sense to me.
the clarifying question i guess is: when the left poi is on the right hand side of the right arm, is it still classed as an inside by you or is it perfectly acceptable to say that in this case, the left hand poi is in the right side 'out' plane?
==============================================


right, now i hope this doesn't confuse matters (i'll delete this if it turns out to be contradictary) but...

poles - i consider that there is one for each poi and that they point perpendicularly outwards from the centre of each circle, away from the hand.
from that basis, i've been defining my planes by what the pole for that poi points towards:

Written by: coleman's head

if the pole points to no objects, its an outside plane.
if the pole points to an object but is not restricted by that object, it is a buzzsaw plane.
if the pole points to an object and is also restricted by that object, it is an inside plane.

there is a special case of insides that when both poi are in inside planes at the same time, you have an 'inversion'.




'turning a hand over' (usually but not necessarily initiated by moving from an 'own side' outside plane to any other plane will switch a poi's pole direction.

i think these definitions fit with rev's except possibly that last one as it includes both rev's definition of inversions and the extra stuff that i consider to be inversions too like barrel rolls and such (which i think is the same as arashi's larger definition of inversions).


and so, onto the meaty bit... biggrin

Written by: rev

Either arm can go in place of the arm sections.. This is from left to right.
Out|Arm|half|Arm|in|Body|in|Arm|half|Arm|out

Thus the buzzsaw spaces become like this:
Out|Arm|buzz|Arm|in|Buzz|in|Arm|buzz|Arm|out




i think that the full spectrum listed like this may be slightly confusing as it attempts to emcompass all the possible planes for both arms at once.

the options listed there are only available at certain times and are not mutually exclusive.
e.g. to make one of the 'in' planes available to the left hand poi, we require an overlapping of planes (opposite facing poles 'overlapped' [crossed over] so that they face away from each other) which means the right poi has to be in the left side 'out' plane to create the space for the 'in' plane.

i think rev's 'arm' terms are an attempt to make this clearer and i hope you all notice that what i'm saying above is not a disagreement with the theory at all - i'm just stating that we can't expect everyone to learn from the full spectrum as it has so far been discussed (because it requires fairly detailed prior knowledge of which planes are and are not mutaually exclusive in order to make any sense of it).


at first, i wasn't entirely sure how to make it clearer (and less ambiguous) for everyone, but i have a fairly solid idea now i think...

produce a full set of 'plane transition spectra' that clearly show what dictates which of the planes in the full spectrum are available to spin in at any particular time.

i think this is what rev was doing when he talked about 'collapsing the spectrum' - right rev?
this is essentially adding boundary conditions for a poi and showing how the spectrum reduces for the other poi in that case.

by writing the spectra in this way, we can go on to create a series of interdependent plane changes using the spectra to show us what is available and when.

rev gave a reduced (collapsed) spectrum for the weave, but i propose to go a step back from that, so that if you define the position of one poi, you can immediately refer to the relevant 'plane transition spectrum' which would then tell you which planes are selectable next.

in this case the full spectrum would in fact be two spectra; one for each hand:

[out<|buzz<|in<|buzz<|buzz<|>out]R

L[out<|>buzz|>buzz|>in|>buzz|>out]


as you can see, there is no need for 'arm' or 'body' terms now as the | represents a possible arm position and the > shows where there is a pole direction restriction.
this also negates the requirement of using the 'half inside' term in order to be complete.
the < and > are not strictly required in the spectra as they do not change - they are only shown in the full spectra here for reference.
in all subsequent diagrams a || is used to show the point where a pole switches for that hand occurs.

i have a more detailed explanation available for this additional notation if its needed smile


*deep breath*


okay, to make sure this is all consistent with what you guys are thinking, here are a couple of examples that show my current understanding.
they also give some example boundary conditions and discuss the implications of those on the spectra - can someone mark my work please? wink

plane transition spectra, example 1
if the right hand poi is in a plane to the right of the centre, the side 'buzz' planes are what were being referred to as 'half inside' planes.
if we take this further and specify that the right poi is say, the right side outside plane, we can show precisely which planes are available to the left poi:

boundary condition is 'right poi in right side OUT plane'; the available plane spectrum for left poi becomes L[out||buzz|buzz|buzz|out]

or we can just write the full spectrum for the right poi (with a bold bit showing the plane we are choosing to currently spin in), and the corresponding left poi's reduced 'plane transition spectrum', showing which planes it is possible to place the left poi in next:

[out|buzz|in|buzz|buzz||out]R ==> L[out||buzz|buzz|buzz|out]


plane transition spectra, example 2
the left side 'in' plane can only be occupied when the right poi is in a plane to the left of that plane (which, by exclusion, can only be either the left side 'in' or left side 'out' planes):

boundary condition is 'left poi spinning in inside plane i.e. left side in plane occupied':

L[out||buzz|buzz|in|buzz|out] ==> [out|in||out]R


and finally...

we can use the available plane selection spectra with set boundary conditions that i mentioned above to produce a sequence of linked plane spectra that show a progression of planes changes and the options available at each stage.
the plane chosen in each step (shown in bold) dictates what planes are available for the next step.
in each case the bold plane shows which plane of the available ones we have chosen, which in turn, dictates the next spectrum and so on...

as an example i'm going to use the forwards 3bt inside weave.
if you understand this and want a bigger example, i have the spectra sequence for a notcoleman5 waiting here... ubbangel
direction is strictly not necessary but since i have specified forwards for this example, i have used capital letters define to designate which arm is on top (again, not strictly required without notation for turns but it makes following the sequences much easier at first):

start with boundary conditions of poi spinning on own sides in wheel plane:


1: [out|buzz|buzz|buzz|out]R (right poi spinning in right side outside plane)
2: L[out||buzz|buzz|buzz|out] (left poi spinning in left side outside plane)
3: [out|buzz|buzz|buzz||out]R (right crosses over to left side outside)
4: L[out||in|out] (left passes through inside to right side outside)

5: [out|buzz|in||out]r (right spinning in left side outside)
6: L[out||buzz|buzz|in|buzz|out] (left spinning in right outside)
7: [out|in|buzz|||out]R (right passes through inside to left side outside)
8: l[out||buzz|in|out] (left spinning in right side outside)
9: [out|buzz|in||out]R (right spinning in left side outside)
10: L[out||in|out] (left passes through inside to right side outside)

13: [out|buzz|in||out]R (right crosses over to right side outside)
14: L[out||buzz|buzz|buzz|out] (left crosses over to left side outside)


repeating steps 5 to 10 equates to spinning a 3bt inside weave.


this example demonstrates that using this method we can notate any possible combination of plane transitions in wheel plane, including repeatable moves and transitions between moves.

can i have a lolly now please ubbangel

you may notice that certain rules impose themselves e.g. "two same side outside beats in a row either demands a swap of which arm is on top or a turn" (there are lots of these rules that present themselves, but i won't write them all out for now).
(note these are not beats in the normal sense - they are more like 'half beats' in that there is a separate beatcount for each hand; hence six steps for a 3bt weave)


well, that all took a while. smile

i warn you, i will come back in a few hours and check my notation examples to make sure they are right but i think you should all get the idea of what i'm trying to do here.
once we are all used familiar with the plane selection spectra, we can get rid of them and just notate the plane being changed to for each beat which would give us a lovely new notation system for poi.
i didn't expect that ubbrollsmile


bom shiva peace meditate


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

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Posted:i'm truly sorry - that is a monster post redface



three additions to these already complex concepts all in one post was possibly not the best idea ever... umm



still though, if no-one can be bothered to read it, i'm sure i'll spew it all out in dribs and drabs at some point later.



if it stands up to the scrutiny of you's guys it may well deserve a thread of its own anyway...





grouphug





cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Richee
BRONZE Member since Jan 2002

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Location: Prague

Total posts: 1841
Posted:
Cole : tooooo much smileoopos. Define pole with not more than 30 words?

I look on it like parallel planes layer DE PLANE. It means:

------------------------
------------------------

Body wheel plane:

Outside < "Normal"(half inside) < Inverted < Buzzsaw - central plane> Inverted > "Normal"(half inside) > Outside.

http://www.homeofpoi.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=4186
br>
Now count: 7

----------------------------------------

Body wall plane:

Outside < Halfinside < Inverted < Inside< (BTN) > Inside > Inverted >
Halfinside > Outside

http://www.homeofpoi.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=4198
br>
Now count: 9

------------------------------
-------------------------------

Now compare. I can see most of them are the same, "normal",
inverted, halfinside, outside and they are, because its one layer
system.
Olny those inside I forgot is in wheel plane missin.

Where are they Rev?

:R


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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

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Posted:Written by: Richee

Cole : tooooo much smileoopos. Define pole with not more than 30 words?



i already did that richee ubbangel
see...

Written by: coleman

poles - i consider that there is one for each poi and that they point perpendicularly outwards from the centre of each circle, away from the hand.




poles are just a way of saying which way a plane is 'facing'.

relating a plane to another plane/the obstacles it faces sides defines what 'type' of plane (outside/inside/buzzsaw) it is.

this in turn tells you what you can do with the other poi, depending its plane type.

it is a bit like an angular momentum vector but a poi pole always points away from your hand/arm (i.e the rotation of the poi does not dictate the direction of the pole).


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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spiralx


spiralx

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Posted:Ok, this is getting far too much like Dirac bracket notation for quantum mechanics. I am officially scared.

"Moo," said the happy cow.

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

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Posted:but once you get used to the coleman exclusion principle for plane transitions ( wink ) it'll all reduce down to a sequence of lin/lout/rin/rout/buzz/lbuzz/rbuzz terms.



anyway, dirac was cool cool





cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

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Posted:cole- yes on most all of what you are talking about
arashi- I can see where you would want to call buzzsaws inverted.. I guess that's what people mean by uncrossed inverted.. but I guess that's where we differ.. I mean you see where I'm coming from and I see where you are coming from.. whihc is good. but I just don't like the idea of calling those inverted just because of the sheer confusion they cause... like an offcenter barrel roll buzzsaw vs an inversion (by my definition) shrug

cole- that's a lot of info there man.. and what I can follow (its hard to read on this little screen) works..

the only thing is.. if you want plane changes.. are you referring to something like this..
here's the spectrum :
Lout|Lbuzz|Lin|Buzz|Rin|Rbuzz|Rout
this plane -(can go)> to this plane
Code:
Lout-> Lbuzz
-> Lin
->Buzz
->Rbuzz
->Rout
Lin-> Lbuzz
-> Lout
-> Buzz
-> Rin
-> Rbuzz
Rin-> Rbuzz
-> Rout
-> Buzz
-> Lin
-> Lbuzz
Rout-> Rbuzz
-> Rin
->Buzz
->Lbuzz
->Lout

the buzzsaws can obviously go to any plane..

The reason I like the idea of collapsing the spectrum is because the buzzsaw that occurs in the side planes.. is the same as the buzzsaw that occurs in the center plane.. so its like a universal mover.. the idea is that
out->in (of the same side)
or out->out
in -> out (of the same side)
or in -> in

what I meant in my other post about dragging the outer plane across is this..
Code:
| R->
body

as you drag that the poi facing the right outer plane to the left it becomes inside

R-> |
body

I see where that would be confusing for you mate.. half inside is between the arms.. and facing the body.. thus presents your confusion.. I guess the underlying assumption that I didnt add was that for half insides both poi have to be in the same hemisphere (half of the spectrum).. in the example above I was only talking about one poi... but if you added a second poi.. then it would only be half inside if the left arm was in the left half, and in between the right and body..
what I was trying to get at is that its the same pole... just different orientation.. if that makes sense..
so in order to understand where you can go (and this goes for any pattern not just inversions and what not) you look at where the flipped pole positions are.. Whihc I think is what you were getting at with some of you stuff up there.. right?

so Lout flips to either a Lin or a Rout..

now cole could you please clarify why you don't have the full spectrum listed for either hand? because any hand can go into any of the planes in the spectrum.. I'm not sure if I might have said something wrong or not..


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Richee
BRONZE Member since Jan 2002

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Posted:
Cole - Right I was thinking Pole is space between two planes smile

Rev - You are good smile

light,

:R


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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

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Posted:hey rev

the reason i missed those planes out of the spectrum is because i've never spun in them smile

i can't spin a full circle in the position you describe above (right poi in left side buzzsaw plane, pole facing right) - my arm gets in the way shrug

i made a video showing the six planes i can get my right poi into: moving pictures of coleman - rite klik say vas - tis a massive 30meg for just 1m45s rolleyes

it shows the right poi spinning in the following planes {pole direction}:

left out {left} : [out|buzz|in|buzz|buzz||out]R

left buzz {left} : [out|buzz|in|buzz|buzz||out]R

left in {left} : [out|buzz|in|buzz|buzz||out]R

buzz {left} : [out|buzz|in|buzz|buzz||out]R

right buzz {left} : [out|buzz|in|buzz|buzz||out]R

right out {right} : [out|buzz|in|buzz|buzz||out]R

then my attempt to get into: left buzz {right} : [out||buzz|in|buzz|buzz||out]R

i put my left arm over to the right at the end and i think that may be what you mean by right poi in the left inside plane {pole facing right} : [out|buzz||in|buzz|buzz||out]R
but i think that is equivalent to right outside: [out|buzz|in|buzz|buzz||out]R

then theres a bunch of other stuff: 3bt weave ( smile ), 3bt inside weave/3bt buzzsaw weave, some notcoleman5's, 3bt inverted weave, static plane 3bt weave.

by the way, this is the first ever video of me on t'internet and i know its sh!te but i reckon its for a good cause umm ubblol


rev, if you have a video of you spinning in the plane you describe above that would be well handy cos i can't imagine where or how it fits...


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Rev
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Posted:cole-

the planes is equivalent to the outer plane.. but what makes it not the outer plane is that its on the left half... if you really want to get technical, there are only outside planes.. a left outside plane on the right half of the body is a right inside.. and a right outside plane on the left half of the body is left inside... but in order to really see why we give them special notice is to spin wallplane..

do a weave that goes from the outer plane to the inner plane (wallplaned.) no big deal right... ok... now I want you to adapt that to side planes.. I talked about this back in like forever long ago when I first started coming to this site, and I mislabelled it a 15 bt weave or something.. because what I did was 1/2 5bt weave (Rout -> Lout) then a 5bt weave (Lout -> Lin -> Lout) then the other half of the 5bt (Lout -> Rout) then finished with another 5bt weave (Rout -> Rin -> Rout) the reason I bring this up is because I think when you are misunderstanding what I say when I say bring the plane over.. though the way you are trying can be done too.. I am refering to the right poi facing the right outside but actually Lin.. as it does in the Lin part of the weave that goes from Lout -> Lin -> Lout... now, you can face it the way you want to.. the best way to see how that can be done is to take and spin the right poi in the rear plane.. (like you would with a btb butterfly..) and bring that forward, until you are spinning in the inner front wall plane.. your hand doesnt change how it faces, or even how its turned.. unlike the way I described just now with they weave..

this is infact a variation on how I teach inside weaves... I teach inside weaves using outside planes.. like this..

stand normal.. you are going to spin a weave normally.. BUT you are going to turn your torso (not your feet) so that you spin behind you all the time..
for example.. turn your torso facing the right side plane.. and begin by spinning the poi in the left side plane (thus rear left plane relative your torso) as you make your transition, turn your torso so that you are facing the left side plane while spinning in the right side plane.. (and thus rear right plane relative your torso)... try to spin low, and keep turning your torso to keep yourself facing away from the plane the poi are in..

the next step is to slowly pull this motion tighter and tighter.. in other words you want to bring the planes over until your right side plane is now on the left sid e( and thus a left inside plane) and the left side plane is brought over enough to where it is on the right side ( and thus a right inside plane) and the result is a weave that goes from inside to inside..

now I'm probably jumping the gun with that... because that weave is very awkward to do.. but I suck.. so others probably can pick it up pretty easily.. I had to get really comfortable with my inside planes before I could though.. shrug

the best thing I can suggest: learn your wallplanes.. its a simple 3 point spectrum.. it will teach you ALL the inversions.. and each direction.. and its what you will be doing on either side of the 7 point spectrum.. and also practice it all with the corkscrew.. because if you point a cork axis down (hands down) then you are doing a outer to inner plane weave.. so if you want just work on pointing a corkscrew down on either side of you..

you should pick up on all this pretty quick.. when you think you've got a hang on it.. I'll show you the different ways to get the 4 1rst degree inversions (if that term confuses you, don't think on it too hard.. it'll get explained soon enough).. those are the main ones.. and probably for the most part the only ones we will use for quite a while.. and I've got a really good pattern that makes use of all 4 of them..

wish I could see your vid.. damn I can't wait until next week..


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oli
SILVER Member since Jul 2003

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Location: bristol/ southern eastern devo...

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Posted:i cant get your vid to play cole (think its something to do with this computer rather than a problem with your vid) , and i think that would have explained the bits of this im not quite sure about. namely, the difference between all the buzzsaw planes that are next to each other. but i understand what your aiming at and its sounds good smile

Me train running low on soul coal
They push+pull tactics are driving me loco
They shouldn't do that no no no

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Richee
BRONZE Member since Jan 2002

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Posted:
Vid is worky, Cole drinkin bear and some demonstrative stuff smile


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Rev
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Posted:nice stuff in there coleman.. I sould be getting acam at some point for the the |s| vid so I'll try and make a clip of all the planes.. if you don't have one by then..

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Richee
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Posted:
Im waiting Rev, I find you smile

:R


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coleman
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Posted:Written by: oli

the difference between all the buzzsaw planes that are next to each other.



the only difference that i can see right now are those created wehn spinning behind-the-back - those side buzzsaw planes have different transitions in and out of them btb.

there are lots of connections between these planes and often they are equivalent.
but as you can see, i don't get how the plane that rev is suggesting above fits in - i'm sure this is only because i don't spin moves that use it yet but we shall see...

the differences between the buzzsaw planes can also be related to what i do on either side of my 3bt inside weave (i'll upload a different version of the video later this week and see if that works better):

on one side i keep my left arm in right side outside plane and do the buzzsaw beat with the right in the left inside plane.
when i do it on the other side, my left handed insides are rubbish and as a result, i bring both hands into the side buzzsaw plane to make the inside easier.

the same thing seems to be happening to my notcoleman5's too (it never used to look all wonky!).

tis a lovely way to show the parallels between buzzsaws and insides but is very annoying when you just want to be able to spin one way or the other wink


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Richee
BRONZE Member since Jan 2002

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Location: Prague

Total posts: 1841
Posted:Hi there smile,

COLE you post:
............................
the difference between all the buzzsaw planes that are next to each other
and :
tis a lovely way to show the parallels between buzzsaws and insides smile
..................................
Ok So you see it like "buzzsaw" is space between hands
(array) and there are planes like "buzzsaws, parallels insides" inside, right. That why I didnt understand mort of the post , because for me "buzzsaw" is only the plane in the middle :].

Well, now is it going agains universal terminology?

, because than I will neen to change my system

light,

:R


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