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Forums > Advanced Poi Moves > inversions, insides, atomics, oh my!

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arashi


arashi

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Posted:edit; okay glass just smacked me in the head with the obvious notion that inverted means upside down as well as the definition i went by, in which inverted means; reversed, in a contrary direction. so i am considering changing my terminology, but i have edited this to make sense with the stuff in the trinity thread. i'm just warning you that i may change this post when i get the time to give a flying fart. anyway this will make sense for a little while til i can change things to confuse you again wink



first, the crossed arm inverted weaves, which add two beats to a odd number weave...

the counting on this is pretty tricky, since it comes out of a weave that already has beats. in general for beat counts i go by the # of beats on each side of the crossover, since that way you don't have to be symmetrical to have it make sense. but the crossover happens at the entrance into the inversion so i label the inverted weave by which weave position you came into it from. there's so many variations that this may make sense later.

first, try the 3 beat inverted weave, which is



3 beat weave, but the crossover goes between your arms instead of to the other side. your arms, you will notice, are crossed, so you have to do an split time isolation with both hands so the chains don't wrap your arms.



next try it out of the five beat, which makes a 5 beat inverted weave.



insides are like buzzsaws but are not between your arms, they are between your arms and your body. take a buzzsaw in front, and drop your hands to your sides. now the wicks come under your armpits, and the chains are inside your arms. you can take a bfly or a spider and inside them, so if you do a bfly in front, you bend forward and do it inbetween your arms and your tummy. do them in the side plane, too.

now if you take a buzzsaw, do it inside at your side, and the take it around your back, keeping the same buzzsaw plane direction the whole time, you have a BTB inside. now try that, with an inverted weave instead of a buzzsaw. ouch. wear a cup. or "box" if your british tongue



I have edited this title and post and cut out all the "buzzsaw" terms. Hope this makes more sense now!

EDITED_BY: arashi (1107654577)


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Rev
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Rev

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Posted:ben- I dunno then man.. I just know my antispin applies to every move that I do exactly the same way.. the only thing that changes is the direction the poi spin.. everything else works exactly the same.. the hand motions go back the the exact same way they came.. just the poi spin a little differently as they come back through the exact same circle the other way, like an antispin flower compressed into a circle.. (without all the lockouts)



Like most conversations with arashi.. I don't even know what we differ about anymore.. other than you don't understand antispin ivnersions because you think of antispin like an inversion ?!?



if you antispin then you should be able to antispin -everything- at least 5bt and below.. but in theory everything if your arms would allow..


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spiralx


spiralx

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Posted:Written by: Rev

I understand the anti-isoaltion.. but it doesnt work... because you need the poi to be able to bend at mid string so that it butterflies around mid chain as the hand and the poi make the butterfly path...


Yes it does, you end up with a concave diamond shape. There's no need for a bend in the poi - I've seen it done.


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tenticle


tenticle

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Posted:rev, we're disagreeing about names of things as we always do...
we're definatly doing the same antispin... i've gone back over the anti spin discussion and basicly i hold one hand differently though the move to the way you do.

--ben


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Dut
SILVER Member since Mar 2002

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Posted:opposite of anti-spin = pro-spin, right? wink



and you're contradicting yourself, rev, here:



>>isolations are center of spin issues, antispin is a center of spin issue, tanlges, and longarm are center of spin issues.. they are the same classification like a family... nothing more..



antispin is not the same kind of 'center of spin issue' as the others. the others specify where the center of spin is - isolation means farther toward the poi's head than normal (normal being at the hands), longarm is the opposite (basically) - farther toward the shoulders. Anti-spin doesn't change where that center is, in the base theory. It does change the forces needed to overcome gravity to the opposite side of the circle as your used to - just like isolation does, and that's about it. You're considering any little push down the line of the string toward the head to be anti-spin, which is technically correct, but most people don't see it that way and only think of an entire anti-spun move as being 'anti-spin'. But saying those're the 'same family' has as much descriptive power as lumping all non-buttefly's into 'the weave family'. I prefer to go a little deeper, and I would also never say that anti-spin is an equivalent change to isolation and longarm, because that's confusingly wrong. I'd maybe say anti-spin is a direction of spin issue, more like weave and butterfly.



I said initially that you put these things too closely together in your mind, and that it looked like your inside anti-spun butterfly stuff looked like sloppy isolations. I think I know why now. It does have to do with thinking in terms of one or two (or more) circles, and I do see why this contains an anti-spin, but talking about the anti-spin there makes things so complicated it's not even funny. the main motion of the move is, say, left to right wallplane, and you were talking about what happens between your wrists front to back when you start off with crossed arms and have to anti-spin to uncross them. When I do some of this stuff, it only results in 180 degrees of antispin anyways, and only because i count the forward part of a forward+left hand motion as anti to a more 'normal' backward+left motion, for example.



other than that, I don't see where you two are disagreeing. Rev has directed my attention interesting micro-isolations and anti-spins that normally go overlooked in the midsts of keeping your hands from tangling on crossed-wrist moves I hadn't even tried before, but now find infinitely interresting. Thanks Rev!



Also, spiralx, the anti-isolation that requires bent poi isn't the same anti-isolation that looks like a concave diamond. The one Rev's saying is impossible is to have the poi spinning forward, center of motion at mid-chain, and have the hand going backwards. I can see doing this with some sort of inside tangle (that would be beyond jedi, i think), but unless you know how to keep the middle of the string in place, and rotate your hand in the opposite direction as the ball, this ain't going to happen. What you're talking about with 'concave diamond' is what i call 'the opposite of isolation' -- namely having the center of rotation inside the handle, though, right? so pro-spun poi make a donut? Then a combination of both types where you 'anti-spin the opposite of isolation' is what you're calling anti-isolation. It was discussed in the other thread as 'hand left, poi right - hand up, poi up - hand right, poi left - hand down, poi down', if this is really what you're talking about, it's not anti-isolation, but is anti-spun.



-- dut

EDITED_BY: Dut (1105740563)


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Rev
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Posted:isolations are poi specific center of rotation..,
longarm is the shoulder as center of spin.. (or center of shoudlers depending on who you are)
tangles are two centers of spin mished into one..
antispin is centers of spin moving in different directions..

all center of spin issues.. nothing more.. never said they were the same center of spin issue.. just that they were.. they each refer to specifc instances.. like isolations being poi specific.. where as antispin is only about the relation of 2 centers of spin to each other.. nothing more..


as far as ben and I go.. we are doing the same thing.. but.. my point of disagree ment.. is that if you spin the poi with one facing the wrong direction.. you cant call it the same thing.. its not.. planes face particular ways for a reason.. if you change the plane facing you are doing a variation of but not the move you describe.. that's all I was saying..


Now I would say can we move on to the inverted stuff.. but I ahve to get ben to work with me and spin his antispin facing outside the whole time so that he can spin his inverted weave, exactly the same way as he normally does save 1 (AND ONLY ONE) change being that the poi spins in a circle opposite from his normal inversion.. If you're doing the same thing.. you should get the same result..


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spiralx


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Posted:Dut, yes that shape is what I'm talking about, where the centre of rotation moves in a straight line up and down (or left and right depending on what angle you start at). Perhaps anti-isolation is a bad term - but I couldn't think of a better one.

I see what you mean about the impossible one but I knew that already smile


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Mr_Jedly
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Dut
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Posted:just to keep playing devil's advocate:
>>(AND ONLY ONE) change being that the poi spins in a circle opposite from his normal inversion..

if two poi change direction, that's two changes. wink

what would you both call only one hand anti-spinning (from forward weave)? is it buttefly weave? aren't all butterfly moves half-anti-spun? even that doesn't make this stuff hit me in the balls any less.

-- dut


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Rev
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Posted:yes bf weaves are half-antispun..
but to play devils advocate.. that also depnds on who you ask..


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spiralx


spiralx

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Posted:Not all butterfly moves at all. To get antispin you need the centre of rotation moving as well as the poi, so it's not even a valid concept with a standard butterfly, and in TTN both centres of rotation (your hands) are moving in the same direction as the poi so there's no antispin.

Butterfly weave is half antispun though, but "butterfly weave" explains the concept better than "half-antispun weave" lol wink


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tenticle


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Posted:rev, i'm not saying they are the same move... Take a look at this.


Non-Https Image Link


This is a slightly odd way of representing these moves, but there you go. The pictures show the arms and poi during the time the hands swap top and bottom during 3bt weave type moves. the poi are spinning forwards, and are all horizontal in the pictures. If you want to see what the other hand does, swap which hand is on top, and the top hand always starts with the poi facing forwards.
Red poi is right, green poi is left, the little blue arrows point fron the center of spin in the direction the plane is facing.
Planes don't really matter when a poi is facing away from your body, as there's nothing to define where they start and stop, which is how trinity and box weaves and stuff with non parallel planes get to work.

A is a normal 3bt weave.
B is a trailing poi inverted 3bt weave, the planes always face in opposite directions
C is antispin, to get the left arm around the right you pull the green poi through 1, and the red poi goes through 2
D is another way to do antispin, where one poi isnt really facing any plane, it can be facing left or right depending on how you hold it. this is how i was doing it.
E is an inverted weave but it's also antispun but it also appears to have a buzzsaw
F is isolating the red poi around the other arm.

D is why i didn't get inverted antispin, because in D they are so similar it dosn't matter.
Notice how similar all of these pictures are? The middle ones are the bits that make each move different, but they all make the poi do the same thing (except A), which is the red poi comes between the arms and the green poi is pointing away from the body, where its plane isn't defined. You can change between any of the different variations in the picture at the end of each set of three. you can normal spin on one side of your body then inverted spin on the other if you like, or antispin one side.
B is related to D,E and F which are all inverted.
The plane facings of A, normal weave and C, antispin you would say were the same, outwards, where i would say they are different.
Appart from A, all of the variation involve the red poi coming up between the arms, but you make it look different by how much you want to move the green poi. D, which is my antispin can be E or C just by slightly changing how you hold your hand.
They aren't all the same move, but the poi do the same thing in each, which is why you have to call them by their right name because that explains the hand positions used and what poi goes where. All of the sequences can be extended in the same way to get the 5bt (2nd transition) moves, and there become more places where you can swap between which variation you are doing, for instance you said the 5bt variation of trailing poi inverted had to go back outside, but actually this changes it to a normal 5bt transition, rather than staying to do a 5bt inverted transition...
(should have pressed post hours ago and now i've forgotten where i was going)

--ben


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Dut
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Posted:^^ beautiful diagrams man! I think I see your problem now. This type of anti-spin is different than the 'other' type of inverted anti-spin Rev was initially talking about that can show up in B, E and F for sure. It involves taking your B and looking at it from the wallplane side.. If you hands are even horizontally and slightly seperated vertically, you can do this without any anti-spin. If your hands aren't even horizontally, but with wrists slightly 'crossed' (and vertically even), you usually get 180 degrees of 'anti-spin', which you don't really notice. if you take the hand that's supposed to start a move in the back and end up in front, and instead, start with that hand underneath in front, and pull it all the way around under to where it ends at the front again, is that not a full circle of 'anti-spin' outside the motion of the overall weave move?



[blah blah blah.. edited cuz I put a better explanation below... now I think I might be 5 beat inverting or something to get the extra circle... who knows.]



if ben showed you an isolated, inverted weave, rev, he'd start with his hands even horizontally and slightly seperated so you wouldn't see the anti-spin I'm talking about here and that I thought you were talking about originally. And my original point still stands that just to isolate an inverted bfly weave, you don't need that kind of anti-spin if your hands are speperated and start vertically even. but you can have it, and I do like it. wink



-- dut

EDITED_BY: Dut (1106079406)


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Rev
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Rev

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Posted:ben...

all I'm saying is that D does matter whihc way you face your poi... PLANES ALWAYS MATTER when it comes to whihc way they are facing.. if you do D as pictured.. you are fine.. but if you do D with one hand hfacing in then you are not doing the same move.. regardless of whether EVERY MOTION IS THE SAME.. if one plane faces different then its different.. its like trying to do an invesion with both planes facing out.. it wont work.. same as trying to do a 'normal' weave with a plane facing in at any point.. it also doesnt work..

I enver said they werent similar.. I just said that if you turn planes facing the wrong way, then you do the antispin equivalent of whatever had the planes facing that way... plane facings are NEVER optional.. they are one of the major roots of variation...


no dut.. the 5bt antispin is rather Easy... just take D1, then D2, then imagine the green facing left and the red facing right (as the right hand twists back under the left hand, to lead to the right side)

Please someone explain to me how having two centers of rotation moving contrary.. is a complicating a definition.. planes don't matter in that they should ALL face the same way as normal spin.. there should only be different types of anti-spin in that there are different ways in whihc two centers of spin can move opposite one another... Whihc is why I also said earlier that we should refer to antispin as a specifc sort of center of spin to center of spin relation.. just as isolations are POI ONLY in reference.. Antispin is a relation of the move center of spin (the arms) and the moved center of spin (the poi) moving in contrary ways.. since antispin when thron on top of x,y,z always amounts to said move following the same path with different spinning poi (not different planes, not different plane facings, not different anything, but poi spin)


I'm sorry guys.. We tend to agre on a lot.. whihc is why we all are wondering why we keep arguing.. but I really don't see why we are even discussing antispin since it hasnt been the issue this whole time.

A is what D should look like normally.. if you opt to do either plane facing with d you end up with an antispin version of A or B not an antispin verision of just A... Ben understands this.. so I really don't knwo why he still insists that both are the same.. ben, you even claim to know that this is WHY you don't understand antispin inversions?!?

so since we all actually understand each other.. where is the problem? Can we just antispin the smae planes liek we should be doing.. whihc makes it realyl simple to antispin all our normal spin moves.. whihc stops this ridiculous arguemtn, and gets us back to talking about the antispin inversions so that we can talk about the normal inversions in relation to the antispin ones and get this thread back on track?


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Dut
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Posted:sorry, dude, i was talking about extra 'anti-spin' beats on inversions -- not the regular 5 beat antispin. i'll edit my post above to make that a little clearer. i didn't realize anyone had a problem with your general anti-spin theory.



i think i'm talking about anti-spinning 5-beat inversions, maybe. or at least, if it's not 5-beat, there's an extra circle here... here's a diagram -


Non-Https Image Link




^^ take what your normally doing in whatever inverted anti-spin your doing and start with the leading hand crossed under and in front when it would 'normally' be behind the trailing hand (or vice versa). you have to move 180 degrees under the trailing hand to get it back even, then if you end with it 180 degrees forward (all around the buzzsaw plane), you've just added another circle of anti-spin. for a total of 3, I think. you did this in your first anti-spin inversion video, and I thought it looked like isolation in that plane, which it isn't really, though isolation does also fit there, depending on which arm you move more. but it's also not the same kind of anti-spin that changes a butterfly into a cross-and-follow.



maybe this doesn't come up in the full inverted anti-spin at all, actually. I can't really do it to comment, but on the inverted butterfly stuff, it's everywhere. it might be because with only one hand really anti-spun, you have to forcibly anti-spin (or isolate) the other poi to get it in plane sometimes. if you were never talking about this stuff Rev, then I apologize for being the one to complicate it.



how are you guys on switching from buzzsaw weave to anti-spun buzzsaw weave on opposite sides of the same buzzsaw? wink



-- dut

EDITED_BY: Dut (1105903798)


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tenticle


tenticle

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Posted:rev- in D, which is what i was doing as antispin, which it is, the green poi dosn't have a plane facing or it can face left, or it can face right, you can claim it's in plane 3, like B or plane 1 like C or plane 2 like E by turning more or less, so i _didn't_ get why they were different. now i know what you are doing i can what you mean about what i'm doing.
I've never claimed they were the same thing, i only said hey look all these things make the poi do the same thing, and you can change between them all over the place, and heres one where it dosn't matter... you can do them all by exagerating the movements of particular hands.

--ben


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Dut
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Posted:rev,
i just read page 6 where arashi also says that video is 5 beat butterfly insides. apparently this was all sorted before i opened my mouth again. also, i realized that anti-spin has to be relative to some other defined circular motion, either of the poi or the arms or something else that spinining, so calling butterflies half-anti-spun just hurts my head now.

-- dut


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Rev
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Rev

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Posted:butterflies aren't half antispun... that's why you can antispin a ttn..

buterflyweaves are half antispun because you are makeing the poi travel in the same path that it would with a normal weave.. whihc inevitably puts one poi doing for and one doing rev during a forward weave for example....


and no the butterfly bit hasnt been resolved.. or maybe it has.. who knows.. I know arashi was unsure.. and I know that my vid shows the planes switching directions mid inversion.. so its half inverted and half not inverted... see the post following beens 1 2a 2b 3 diagram somewhere..

also dut.. with antispin bts get absorbed into the motion.. ebcause you have 5 bt move... (ie the number of time poi cross bottom say, versus mulit poi beats) think of a flower as being 1 bt with 1/4 beat poi spins..

hey arashi.. not sure If I'll get to post today again or not.. but I'm going talk to my phil of math/math guru professor after class today to get a quick hardcore inversion lesson.. And I'll try and find new ways to understand what I'm doing and relate it.. wink


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arashi


arashi

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Posted:good ask him about spherical inversions and let me know what you find out.
i think the main crux of our misunderstanding which will be cleared up later in atomics is that for a weave or move (2 hands) to be inverted they have to complete at least a carry (half circle crossover), if not a full circle, while inverted. it's not enough for the planes to get passed through with hands pointing at each other, cause mathematically then the crossover acts like an inside.

ben your way of terming the "inverted 3 bt" is interesting and yes it does help teach overall patterns. i just adhere to the "beats are dead" school. i think beat oriented patterning can be an un-aesthetic learning crutch if taught before the individal offsets. too many people just sit there and do the pattern ad nauseum.
i have been popping in for a couple minutes at a time at all this antispin diagrams and i think i'm getting it, i'l have a crack at those diagrams soon. it would have helped a long time ago if i'd known about the concave diamond thing, i've always (and still do) assumed those were considered just a kind of isolation and not something separate. plus you guys seem to be into pushing things into specific hand patterns so that just confuses me.
i almost got a digtal camera on all this but it didn't work out, but there may be a light at the end of the tunnel coming soon.
did i say my new year's present will be 500 hard moves? I, uhhh, meant, uhhh, valentine's present...


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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spiralx


spiralx

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Posted:500 hard moves? Sounds like a porn film ubblol

Looking forward to them biggrin


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tenticle


tenticle

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Posted:Written by: arashi

ben your way of terming the "inverted 3 bt" is interesting and yes it does help teach overall patterns.


Which is kind of the point... although i term it an inverted 1st transition weave. anywhere a 1st transition can happen, an inverted 1st transition can happen instead, and so on with any other type of 1st transition... anywhere a 1st transition can transition to, any other 1st transition can go to too.

Written by: arashi
i just adhere to the "beats are dead" school. i think beat oriented patterning can be an un-aesthetic learning crutch if taught before the individal offsets. too many people just sit there and do the pattern ad nauseum.


3bt, 5bt, 7bt... they are symetrical patterns that do the same thing on either side, but with the other hand doing most of the complicated stuff on the other side... if you are free form spinning or dancing or putting together a show, who cares how many beats you do? but if you are trying to see how stuff fits together and why some things are the same as others and why some are different, beats are a useful tool to help you analyse what is happening too each poi when and where... they're usless for naming stuff beyond the basic patterns, as a 1,1 wheel plane weave does the same number of beats (3) as a 2,0 but in a different place... a 2bt wall plane weave does the same total number of beats as a waistwrap, but the weave goes 1,0,1,0 and a waistwrap does 1,0,0,1...

--ben


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Rev
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Rev

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Posted:arashi- what would the specific section of math that would deal with this topic.. differential geometry? I mean.. I know it can easily be represented graphically, but deals with motion.. He didnt have much time after class to talk with me, but we're going to schedule a time to sit talk more about it later next week... Math is so specialized now that I need something specific to look for lest I do a door to door thing.. and so far the few people I've talked to weren't really sure what to classify it under... apart from my phil of math teacher, it seemed to take a while to explain to people that what I had wasn't a phyics problem... LOL... They dont' seem to understand that I'm more interested in gemoetrical shapes, and not necessarily just objects in motion... I mean the static shape is the product that I can trace out with my poi..

so yeah.. any idea on what area in particular to look at?


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arashi


arashi

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Posted:i dunno, i got as far as trig and calc II and said I'M OUTTA HERE and set up a cozy couch in the art department and now 8 years later i can barely add. there may be some exact spherical equations which follow these same principles and they may be calculus oriented? but that's a guess, i was content to find an explanation for the spatial orientations.

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Analemma


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Posted:ubblol

biggrin

clap

meditate


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Dut
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Posted:If you're going for what I want in "Poi Math", you're trying to define your own algebra where the function space takes into account the full range of poi motion around a human body. Your goal is to get to something like "3*f(x) + 2" where f(x) is a forward butterfly, '2' shows that you added two 90 degree rotations in the positive direction and "3*" makes it the '6-beat' version or something. Then you can move on to adding more symbols for other moves or transitions.(absolute value, exponents, derivatives, logarithms, etc) and their relations to each other. This also allows you to express full movements or just 'core' move formulas that can be added onto. For example "3*f(x) +2 -2 +2" equals (in a math sense) the same thing as the first function, but shows how you can add infinite variation internally and transform one type of move to another one step at a time. And that's only for symmetrical moves.. basically, it also shows that a move's equasion doesn't equal 0 if it doesn't start and end in the same place.

The hard part is coming up with the basic operations. They have to work such that something similar to the above type of cancellations can be performed, allowing equasions to be 'simplified' into more basic forms that have less terms or transformed into terms relative to another type of related move. It would be nice to have simple maths for this that are already well understood, but I don't think it's going to magically appear anytime soon. Any solution for realistically modeling poi+body movement should have no problem modelling the poi part, but will make it impossibly hard to get all the possible collisions that a real person can put a body holding poi through. Can you make a math system that describes all posible dance moves in any style? What about one that takes into account the specific muscle tension of each person's body to show that, for example, it's physically possible to spin perfectly upside down or have head-center isolation moves, they're not going to be any easier for you to do once you see them. If all you get new from this are moves that are impossible to actually do, what's the point?

To do it using established maths, you need multi-dimensional topography, Rev. And maybe some 'minimal surfaces' stuff. The way >3 dimensions in topography works is by compressing the 'parameter space' (where each variable is another dimension) which will be able to tell you which types of transitions require more or less effort (either complexity or physical force, or however you set up your 'hill climbing' function). Defining what variables to use and how they should interact is equivalent to the above solution, though, using a new algebra. I don't think you're going to get much from the base math that you don't already know in another form, but if it helps you to empty your preconceptions to come at it bottom up from a new direction, more power to ya. wink

The best I see anyone getting out of this direction with current technology is a system that will let you visualize poi moves if you already know the math and/or can show the computer the move. It would help out with finding minimal transitions or transitions that involve certain parameters. It'll make for the neatest ever screensavers, but I don't think it will be able to push the level of the art any further than a person can themselves with --- more practice.

-- dut


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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

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Posted:ok..
when I talked to the math chair, he gave me a list of names..
I did a demonstration for the department head in math and the chair.. and expalined what I was looking for.. now I have an appointment with a guy whose focus is called braid theory..

I heard about the topography thing from like several people outside math, but everyone in math disagrees.

basically differential geometry will do a number of the features that I need, however I know nothing about braid theory.. I never got above diff eq.. and that was back in highschool.. whihc was a WHILE back..

I had a number of the department intrigued when I started explaining my theory of poi.. so I have a few other professors that want to talk to me after I've worked out my current problems.. LOL...

dut- my goal is to learn about the functions, their derivatives and integrals, and the way they act in relation to other variations.. What ways I can alter it and what its limits are.. not much information really... I have to be honest and say that my creativity is kinda bogged at the moment.. its like working a problem but not being able to see your mistake.. I just want to know more about the structure I'm working with... I already kinda see poi in terms of a certain formulation.. Not some specific dx/dy business.. but rather generic groupings that function equivalently... like talking about amplitude generically rather then as some specific operation..

I'll keep you guys updated.. and by the way.. arashi can you send me that link that I think you posted at some point with all these graphical images of inversions?


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arashi


arashi

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Posted:http://www.math.binghamton.edu/alex/pictures9.html


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
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Rev
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Rev

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Posted:wasnt there one that had like 20 or so images in different patterns? I think one of them looked like a flat horizontal planed figure 8 and flat vertical planed figure 8 that was linked in the middle.. so that the top circle twisted into the left circle whihc swisted into the bottom and into the right.. etc.. and other pictures like that.. what were those?

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Rev
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Posted:well I talked witha math guy... it is differential geometry, and I'm working with two people at the moment, one that does knot theory, and one that does braid theory.. Unfortunately, I'm not going to get very far with them very fast because the times that they are available conflict with my classes, so I might get about 15 minutes a week with them.. frown

If anyone can find more pictures like this:
pic

let me know.. it would be most helpful.. for the math guys at least..


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arashi


arashi

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Posted:go to google and click the "images" button, and run a search. you'll find more than enough.

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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Rev
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Rev

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Posted:LOL... been there done that man... but it only turns up some of the inversions like the one you linked, not like the one I linked (with the exception of the one I linked.. )

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