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Forums > Advanced Poi Moves > inversions, insides, atomics, oh my!

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arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2363
Posted:edit; okay glass just smacked me in the head with the obvious notion that inverted means upside down as well as the definition i went by, in which inverted means; reversed, in a contrary direction. so i am considering changing my terminology, but i have edited this to make sense with the stuff in the trinity thread. i'm just warning you that i may change this post when i get the time to give a flying fart. anyway this will make sense for a little while til i can change things to confuse you again wink



first, the crossed arm inverted weaves, which add two beats to a odd number weave...

the counting on this is pretty tricky, since it comes out of a weave that already has beats. in general for beat counts i go by the # of beats on each side of the crossover, since that way you don't have to be symmetrical to have it make sense. but the crossover happens at the entrance into the inversion so i label the inverted weave by which weave position you came into it from. there's so many variations that this may make sense later.

first, try the 3 beat inverted weave, which is



3 beat weave, but the crossover goes between your arms instead of to the other side. your arms, you will notice, are crossed, so you have to do an split time isolation with both hands so the chains don't wrap your arms.



next try it out of the five beat, which makes a 5 beat inverted weave.



insides are like buzzsaws but are not between your arms, they are between your arms and your body. take a buzzsaw in front, and drop your hands to your sides. now the wicks come under your armpits, and the chains are inside your arms. you can take a bfly or a spider and inside them, so if you do a bfly in front, you bend forward and do it inbetween your arms and your tummy. do them in the side plane, too.

now if you take a buzzsaw, do it inside at your side, and the take it around your back, keeping the same buzzsaw plane direction the whole time, you have a BTB inside. now try that, with an inverted weave instead of a buzzsaw. ouch. wear a cup. or "box" if your british tongue



I have edited this title and post and cut out all the "buzzsaw" terms. Hope this makes more sense now!

EDITED_BY: arashi (1107654577)


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
Location: Apparently lost in my ego

Total posts: 1269
Posted:ok
1- you can isolate inversions... so I have no clue what the hell your critique of the fact that i use isolation in my inversions is about.. it makes no sense.. its like saying that an isolated weave doesnt weave because its isoalted.. inversions are not a center of spin issue.. inversions are a planar issue.. thus you can invert planes will simultaneaously using isoaltions to change the center of spin.. infact all inversion are EASIER isoalted than not but can be done either way..

2- I have no idea what your trying to demonstrate.. we all know inversions can be done normally.. however we are adding the other ways that inversions can be done.. fleshing out the family if you will.. thus moving past 'normal' inversions to get at some of the other inversions.. ie.. the butterfly inversion (one hand normal inversion, second hand antipsun inversion) and the antispun inversions, which are obvious..

3- none of the above videos that I have posted have ANY crossers.. nor have the discussions, unless i tangented somewhere..

4- the inverse butterfly is kinda what spawned the whole inverted butterfly weave thing anyway.. so I'm confused on that point..

5- inverse btb arent' hard at all.. the 3bt ones are harder than the 5bt ones imo because they take place more to the center rather than out to the sides where one has more room.. that being said.. I've only gotten the 3bt antipsun inverted weave btb.. because the 5bt btb antipun is just too pressed for space that it makes attempts at getting the inversion virtually impossible..

I'm confused on most of these points since they arent' related to anything being discussed.. I mean.. they aren't crossers.. the antispin is menat to show that it can be done.. not a botched sideproject of inverting.. and the bit about keeping hands together just goes way off.. have a smoke.. chill out.. come back to me later.. I can probably answer most of your questions if you hit me up on aim or something.. I wont be here to discuss things for about another week..
I've been uber bogged down in school work that I'll be lucky if I get anyspare time between now and Dec. 3rd.. then finals.. then vegetation for the holidays.. but seriously.. do hit me up on aim.. I'm sure there's something coherent in those ramblings.. just no idea what...


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MikeIcon
GOLD Member since Mar 2003

MikeIcon

Pooh-Bah
Location: Philadelphia, PA - USA

Total posts: 2109
Posted:Really now...

Do we actually need to do BTB inversions? Normal ones are good enough for me!


Let's turn those old bridges we crossed into ashes.
We'll blaze a new trail,
and torch the rough patches.

-Me

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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
Location: Apparently lost in my ego

Total posts: 1269
Posted:we need everything.. lest our desire for infinte poi knowledge fail..

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MikeIcon
GOLD Member since Mar 2003

MikeIcon

Pooh-Bah
Location: Philadelphia, PA - USA

Total posts: 2109
Posted:Knowledge is one thing. Spending coutless hours learning a move Ill never use aside from mesuring my poinis is just rediculous.

Let's turn those old bridges we crossed into ashes.
We'll blaze a new trail,
and torch the rough patches.

-Me

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MikeIcon
GOLD Member since Mar 2003

MikeIcon

Pooh-Bah
Location: Philadelphia, PA - USA

Total posts: 2109
Posted:Then again, I did just stumble upon BTB hyperloop weaves last night and can do em fairly well with little practice so maybe they arent as hard as I make em out to be. Either way, its not something Im gonna strive to learn.

Let's turn those old bridges we crossed into ashes.
We'll blaze a new trail,
and torch the rough patches.

-Me

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Dut
SILVER Member since Mar 2002

lurker
Location: Nashville, TN

Total posts: 380
Posted:Rev,



>>3- none of the above videos that I have posted have ANY crossers.. nor have the discussions, unless i tangented somewhere..

>>...

>>have a smoke.. chill out.. come back to me later..



hehe. that's what got me all confused in the first place, I think. if you don't consider that 'crossed', what is it? just seperated toward the outside of the opposite elbows? hehe. that's half way to being 'indian' crossed, isn't it? anyways, i gave you props for the anti-spins and isolations i found in the area. they are hawt and do feel smoother than the extended arm ones in a certain way. a way that doesn't involve the precision of hands being together, which I also like playing with. wink the next closest crcles inside are isolations, then farther seperated you have to do that anti-spin stuff, right?



>> I'm confused on most of these points since they arent' related to anything being discussed..



topic says 'inverted weaves, inside planes'. i now understand that what you're doing in that initial video is not the 'most basic' inversion, which others might not have caught because of the continued talking about what we're talking about. on that note... wink I'll try to catch you on aim some time and see what you're doing the weekend after school's out. i'll still be on vacation and might in new orleans around then. peace.



-- dut



ps. assume anything I didn't comment on was me agreeing with you.

EDITED_BY: Dut (1100997412)


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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

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Posted:"the next closest circles inside are isolations, then farther seperated you have to do antispin.."

umm.. not sure what you mean.. but I'm 95% sure the answer is no...

isolations aren't the next closest inside circles.. see the inversion comes from (hope arashi doesnt slap me for this) hand position for the most part.. From there the poi have a little leeway in what they can or can't do.. hence being able to isoalte the poi which results in a bit of a seperation of the hands, but the same motions and direction relative each other..

Antispin is when you have the hands doing a forward roll, with reverse spinning poi.. yes it does seperate the hands a bit more.. but its the antispin that makes the hands need to seperate, not the seperation that means you have to do antispin.. I can seperate my isolated ones as far apart as I can and never have to spin a different way..


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spiralx


spiralx

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Location: London, UK

Total posts: 1376
Posted:I had a conceptual breakthrough yesterday about inverted weaves and a much better way of defining them than saying "crossed" or "uncrossed" arms. Basically you can distinguish between inverted weaves where you enter the inverted plane with the leading or following poi.

When you enter with the trailing poi you get "uncrossed" type inverted weaves such as the buzzsaw weave or notcoleman5.

When you enter with the leading poi you get "crossed arm" type inverted weaves. I was going to say that the trailing poi has to follow the leading poi into the inverted area, but thinking about it I dunno if that's true - I think I can envision a move where you don't have to. Arashi? wink

Anyway, just a thought that's clarified my thinking...


"Moo," said the happy cow.

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arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2363
Posted:well yes that's mostly true. at least for the more common inversions... read my third post on second page for some slight variations on the main theme you got there, which in this case was a variation of the notcoleman5. you can still cross your arms with... either leading and following poi... leading off the inverted part of the pattern.

half inveresions are another exception, in fact that's prety much the description of them. but mathematically they are more like normal inside/outside weaves, the crossovers mostly happen "outside". insides and outsides are reflective.


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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spiralx


spiralx

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Location: London, UK

Total posts: 1376
Posted:Cheers, that's given me a few things to play with smile

"Moo," said the happy cow.

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arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2363
Posted:so now...
first, i'd like to reiterate that i don't describe a move specifically by whether it has crossed hands or uncrossed hands- that was just a teaching tool. as i said, i define them by the entrance, which is, i believe, the best way -for almost the same as the realisation you had about defining it by the leading or following poi- but even more specific, necessary because of the stuff we just talked about. there's variations and understandings about these basic inversions we've yet to get to. (i finally got on sperculism and there's still a slight bit of misunderstanding), and also i think some simple moves that are not being known yet because of the language problem. read my posts keeping the ENTRANCE in mind. notcoleman 5 is VERY different from what i call a 5 beat inversion. a 5 beat inversion is really hard to do technically (smoothly at least) whereas a notcoleman5 is relatively simple. notcoleman5 is, i believe i'd call it a 2 beat inversion within a 5 beat weave... 5 beat inversion is going STRAIGHT from a 5 beat and crossing over to inverted planes [rather than the normal outside crossover] so the "barrel roll" (gag) happens with your hands all crickety upt. i wish someone understood me cause i'd like to know if there's a better way, or if i need to reexamine my math...


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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spiralx


spiralx

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Location: London, UK

Total posts: 1376
Posted:Naw I get that, the 5bt inversion you're talking about there is something I've played with, but it's a bugger to get smooth and to keep properly split time. The notcoleman5 is much easier, I see what you mean about ti having a 2bt character.

Heh I tend to think of moves (especially this stuff) in terms of where there's "room" to fit a poi and how to make more room, which I guess isn't so different from your perspective.


"Moo," said the happy cow.

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[Nx?]
BRONZE Member since Nov 2001

[Nx?]

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both

Total posts: 3749
Posted:Yeah arashi man, I get you,

its a little bum of a move though, but comes in usefull....

T biggrin


This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti

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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
Location: Apparently lost in my ego

Total posts: 1269
Posted:ROFL... man re-reading some of those posts made my day... ah that was a good laugh...

aight.. well.. umm I think the question has to do something with what I was doing in the video that I claimed was an inverted bf weave but arashi claimed wasnt.. and he wanted me to describe it in terms of some other move.. or something.. I dunno.. I kinda lost myself in reading on the posts.. and don't want to go back through them yet again..

if there isnht an answer somewhere in all this arashi, then by all means please restate the question...

what I was attempting to do in that video.. though I know better know.. was to take the right hand.. and do a normal inversion.. as I would when I did a 3bt inverted weave.. ie. the lead hand entered forward 3bt inverted weave.. the left hand however did an antispun inversion.. the best way I can explain this is a bit complicated.. (more complicated than necessary, but I'm hoping to avoid ANY confusion) and I'm sorry this isnt a move, but I don't want to go into trying to explain antipun inverted weaves.. these motion descriptions are poi free..

stick the left arm straight out and bend it 90 degrees at the elbow to the right.. (it should be parallel with the chest)... now do the opposite with the right arm.. so that the right arm sits with the right elbow on the left hand, and the right hand one the left elbow.. you can go ahead and loosely grab the left elbow...

now take the left hand and spin reverse circles on the right side there.. and when you are ready roll the left hand under the right arm (through the negative space lol) and over the right arm to the left side... while still spinning a reverse circle..

the left hand should pass through like the follow hand on forward 3bt inverted weave, but with a reverse spin of the wick the whole time..


personally I think its easier to think of it as an antispun inverted weave.. but I don't want to be accused of misusing that term.. what I have been calling an antispun inverted weave is an inverted weave that the wick spins reverse circles while the hands go through the forward inverted weave motions.. like what I described right up there..

anyway.. I probably am still beeing vague.. or answering the wrong question.. so I'll stop now..


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arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2363
Posted:no problem. one more time. bottom of page three. try the move, play with it. try threading it different ways before crossing over to the front. crossovers _up._ one day we will be able to use your vid as a reference. but until then i'm giving up. the next round of me wasting my life away typing will be just more theory. and you'll have this light turn on. we think too differently, i think. rather than try to come to an understanding about your video yet i'm just going to keep on with my own methods. it'll click at some point.



happy new year. my new year's gift to you all will be about 500 really hard moves to obsess over. wink keep playing with watermills (inside weaves with crossovers down), inside butterflies, inside ttn! oh and play with 5 beat inversions just a bit cause i'll drop a bomb later...


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
Location: Apparently lost in my ego

Total posts: 1269
Posted:got those... or at least had those.. havent spun me poi in 2 months.. I look forward to being bombed.. and will these bombs be in the form of the video we were promised..



and I will edit this post when I read the question, and try the move.. so check back later..



edit: that's very close.. to what I did in the first video.. that lead to the inverted bf weave stuff...



try this.. take a forward bf, bring it inside to the watermill point.. thread it so the left hand is on top, now instead of rolling it out in front of you, roll it over your shoulder so that as you turn a little you'll be in the left plane doing your normal left side of the bf weave..



now take that motion.. and try to incorporate it into a bf weave... start with a forward bf on the right.. as the right hand comes over the left (wrist on top of wrist) they should turn so that the right wrist is hooked around the left facing towards youand the left is hooked around the right wrist facing away.. try and hold that wrist lock, and you roll your hands (right leading) through the inverted weave motions, out to the left side plane.. one the other side, you have to untwist and retwist your bf weave like you would a normal weave..



what the left hand does in that is antispin inversion.. the planes stay contrary like they do in normal inversion.. its just one is moving counter to its spin..



since you can do same direction ttns.. which use sort of an inside (am I using that term right, I normally do, but anyway) you know that half of the ttn comes from normal twisting (like you od a weave).. the other half comes from what we call antispin.. so all you have to do to antispin a weave is to do the antispin half of the ttn to the other side and consequently other antipsun half of the same direction ttn.. (the same way you use the other two halves to make a normal weave.. )



with that motion in mind. try doing your inversions.. they have to 'roll' forward, while spinning backward.. so that neat little thing that happened in the butterfly will happen again here, only with both poi.. I described those above a bit diffferently..



am I jumping to far around?

EDITED_BY: Rev (1104515967)


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tenticle


tenticle

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Location: ati: on: She: ffi: eld: UK:

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Posted:ok... so here's where i'm at with insides and inversions and stuff.

firstly, some terms...

inside: between the arms and the body

buzzsaw: between the arms

inverted: the planes are facing in different directions.



also, i number transitions in the series that they fit into, so, for a same direction split time move...

transition 0: hand on the crossed side leads to same side under other arm

transition 1: hand on the same side leads to crossed side

transition 2: hand on the crossed side leads to same side over other arm

so a normal 3bt is a 1 followed by a 1, a 5bt is a 2 followed by a 2, a 2bt is a 1 followed by a 0. there's a few others, 3 is used for 7s, -1 is the one you'd do to do a 2bt offset from a 5, etc.

if you're lost already, it's only going to get worse...



so, a buzzsaw is an inversion that you transition into with the leading poi, whilst doing the 0 transition in a 2bt.

a crossed arm buzzsaw inversion is an inversion you transition into from a 1, and does the barrel roll around the arms thing.

this also means that spinning at your sides is an inversion, but as the poi are in different planes, it's kind of irrelevant. you can also do a buzzsaw inversion from a 2 transition, but it's a right bitch not to get confused on.



then theres inversions with the trailing poi... do a 1 transition, and bring the trailing poi up between you arms (buzzsaw), over the crossed arm and lead back to the other side, then do the same with the other poi... you get a 3bt weave where the planes are always facing in different directions. from this, you can add in the crossed arms buzzsaw inversion as well, which leads me to call the 3bt inverted weave with the trailing poi buzzsawed a (1,1)3bt inverted weave, and the buzzsaw crossed arms inversion a 1 transition buzzsaw inversion, because you can get into it from any 1 transition, normal or inverted. you can also only take the leading poi up the buzzsaw zone (oo-er) and have it come back to the same side for some straightjacket type action, transition still s.j.ed and then bring the other one up buzzsaw to escape...



then we have another kind of inversion, where one poi is inside, and one is outside. try doing this: hand on the crossed side is spinning outside, hand on the same side is spinning inside, by reaching over the crossed arm. you can transition this to the other side of the body, and at the same time swap which poi is spinning inside, in a kind of 2bt weave like way... the poi on the inside each time leads to the outside, and the outside poi trails into the inside. then you can start playing with what happens to the inside poi... it can go outside for a beat, come over the other arm and go back inside on the same side, or it can transition to the other side and come up inside or outside. or it can come up buzzsaw for a beat and go back inside, or transition, or drag the other poi into a buzzsaw invert...



still with me? the upshot of all this is that you can do a 3bt inverted weave between the inside and outside on one side of the body, then transition the whole lot to the other side and do the same again, or do some other seriously weird stuff like a weave where one poi transitions outside and one inside, swap which is in and out and transition back, or something that looks like a same direction split time ttn, but is actually one going between inside and outside, and one going between outside and buzzsaw, like an antispin 2bt but without the antispin, or always have one outside, one buzzsaw, but swap outside and buzzsaw every beat. or you can do watermills (like a windmill but between outside and inside. they work like windmills more than weaves because you can't get any shoulder turning in to add beats (so they are reels really)) with inverts in. or you can do water mills with buzzsaw inverts on either end to make a madly spinning poi arm mess. or you can inverted thruwrap into the inside, swap inside and outside, inverted thruwrap back. and probably much much more, but my head is hurting.



--ben


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arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2363
Posted:nice. thanks!



real quick. three beat inside weave. if we get this right then we'll move on to atomics. but until this is understood we'll just make more headaches.



do a 3 beat trinity watermill.

crossovers are down. trinity is just to make the crossover point obvious. move the crossover point around. move it around so that the crossover is right next to your arm. now, if you put the crossover between your arms,

IOW straight up, but MAKE SURE you don't do any crossovers anywhere else, IOW once you go inside, stay in circles until you come around again to crossover up, you'll notice that if you point the crossover up the hand motion looks almost the same as an inversion, but it's really just a normal crossover as seen from an audience. you can do any weave INSIDE and it's a totally different move from an inversion. an inversion has another crossover built in before you go back to the regular outside crossover. you can go from insides to inversions to insides, (to outsides to insides, etc.) but fundamentally they are two different things. i think that rev's video is a 5 or 6 beat inside butterfly. but definitely not an inversion. to me, in this case, "antispin" is just half of an isolation.



also note that for every inside weave and every inversion there is a corresponding airwrap. really there's an airwrap for every kind of crossover, and then many more. notice you can do that "static" wrap, or what i call an inside 2 beat gordian knot, two ways now. from out to in, or from in to out.


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
Location: Apparently lost in my ego

Total posts: 1269
Posted:how do you get antispin as half of an isolation? its two centers of spin moving in different directions..

still confused on how contrary planes result as insides when not inside (not between arms and body).. thats my only problem.. because what I do with antispin and with the bf and with the normal same direction are all identical with respect to all of the key points.. (Planes, hand motion, etc)..

I think I'll pick up my poi next week and give a spin.. maybe then I'll have something meaningful to contribute..


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"Buy the ticket... Take the ride..." -Raoul Duke
"FEMA has never done catastrophe planning..."-Michael Brown

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tenticle


tenticle

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Location: ati: on: She: ffi: eld: UK:

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Posted:aye... 3bt inside weave isn't an inversion... inverted 3bt inside weave is though, ie, the beat that would be outside for the inside poi comes up between the arms instead, and the beat that would be inside for the outside poi does also, the same way a 3bt inverted works... gets even more funky when you do 4bt inside, to invert that you need to get 2 beats between the arms rather than inside/outside (delete as applicable) which needs what would be inverted thruwraps if you don't get out of the way in time, and if you get the timing wrong it turns into a 3bt inside inverted weave with buzzsaw invert transitions, which i invariably screw up due to confusion. the 4bt isn't helped by the fact that it is really a forwards 3bt and a reverse 3bt joined together like you would for the 4bt windmill, and you need to remember which is the trailing poi and make sure that it's the one that comes up between the arms, if you do the lead one you get the buzzsaw invert part instead of clear space...
inside is a funny place, depending on how you use it it can be equvalent to the outside on the same side, or the outside on the crossed side, or it can be a plane it it's own right, consisting of the inside on both sides at the same time, as if your body wasn't in the way... (which is kind of how i think about the buzzsaw zone...)

hey, imagine this... two robot arms (holding poi), suspended by their shoulder joints, in mid air, with no supports. the shoulder joints always have a fixed relationship with each other, but otherwise there's nothing else in the system, except gravity. then make the arms spin the poi in normal, inside and inverted ways... you'd be hard pressed to work out what the difference between inside and crossed side actually was... buzzsaw would look like spinning both inside on opposite sides of the body, inverted would make use of that handy gap where the neck ought to be, inside weave or watermill would look the same as a weave or a windmill...

--ben


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arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2363
Posted:ben that's so cool i had that exact same "arms" image in my head one day.



rev well by half of an isolation i only mean that it is the other half of a full set of moverments, sorry those words were vague. i think i know what you mean by antispin, and i teach it to my first level class! i classify what you call antispin as part of the taking the weight off set. you've got concentric isolations, isolations, and antispin, but to me antispin is still connected to isolation. you said yourself, two centers of spin, well so is isolation. so you can do it one beat at a time as part of a butterfly or whatever but that is the low level frequency. but anyways, if i get what you mean, isolating or antiapin doesn't NECESSARILY change the crossover characteristic, it only changes the location of the crossover. as far as i can see, and again i could be wrong, you've used isolation to change the location of the beef of the move but the fundamental crossover i described is still the crossover unvolved in your move. but again, this has always been about trying to get all the crap in my head out on paper and until i've gotten more of it out, we'll just never know, huh? there's a way to invert a butterfly weave but i don't think what you're doing is the same thing. really inverted to me is a very specific thing and unless you understand all the ways something isn't inverted you won't know what i mean. remember when poibox said you can't go from 3-5 beat atomics? well it's related to that concept, (though there are ways to go from 3-5 beat atomics it only comes down to what you mean by 3-5 beat, those are very vague words). but if you don't know exactly what he meant by that you'll just need to be a bit patient until we can all get some agreed upon language. soon... anyways doe what i said make sense? cause you keep describing antispin to me but unless i know exactly what you mean it's just gibberish and i don't want to misunderstand you.



man i wish richee understood this thread... please, ask me something! grab a fork and knife!


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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spiralx


spiralx

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Location: London, UK

Total posts: 1376
Posted:I wish I understood this thread now ubblol

But anyway, I've picked up a few more bits and bobs to think about and work on, and just generally playing more with inside stuff and thinking about crossover points.

Still can't turn the crossover point to point towards me though arashi. Finding that fearsomely hard, the crossover point keeps flipping back to point away from me.


"Moo," said the happy cow.

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arashi


arashi

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Location: austin,tx

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Posted:i blame it on the f@#ing jugglers.

actually blame muscle memory. but once you get these down your poi will be a blur of sexy lines whirling around your arms.

seriously, start with just the two beat version then. and can you do multi beat windmill? it's the same move, basically. or do inside corkscrews and work your way to vertical.
oh and just stay away from side plane inside weaves, they'll mess with your head til later. ubbloco they are what makes the whole thing weird, really...


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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tenticle


tenticle

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Posted:Inversion, antispin or isolation?



Have a diagram: (i hope it appears, if not it's the one in my gallery)


Non-Https Image Link






the picture is of a poier facing up, the space to the left numbered 1 is outside on the left, 3 is outside on the right, 2 is the buzzsaw zone. The buzzsaw zone is divided into 2 parts, depending on which side of the zone the poi go through.



While doing a 3bt inverted weave like i described above, with each poi doing 2 beats on the crossed side and one between the arms with the planes always facing in oposite directions, the poi move through these planes for each beat:



Left: 3,3,2a

Right: 2b,1,1



to do the buzzsaw parts, you bring the poi back to it's own side to bring it around the crossed arm.



While doing a 3bt antispin, the poi move through these planes for each beat, always facing in opposite directions:



Left: 3,3,2b

Right: 2a,1,1



to do the buzzsaw parts and keep them on the correct side, you need to bring the hand that is on top around the bottom hand and back to the crossed side (plane 1 for left, 3 for right) in half a beat.

There is another way to keep the poi in the right side of the buzzsaw, and that is to isolate the buzzsaw bit around the crossed arm.

When you look at 3bt antispin, it looks as if you are moving your hands around each other the wrong way, taking the top hand and putting it on the bottom, rather than bottom to top, and in the process has to add that half beat oddness when moving around it. Looked at another way, taking the top hand off and putting it on the bottom is the same as taking the bottom hand off and putting it on the top, depending on which hand you take as the reference. The poi essentially travel the same path whether you antispin, invert or isolate around the arms, which are each poi's plane is facing in the opposite direction from the other, and each poi travels through the buzzsaw zone instead of to the crossed side... inverted takes the poi on the same side around the crossed arm on the same side, antispin takes the poi on the crossed side around the buzzsawed one at the fingers, the isolated one takes the buzzsawing poi around the crossed arm by isolating around the elbow region...



--ben


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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

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Posted:how would you explain antispin inversions ben?

I really like your description..
when I do antispin, my poi don't face in oppostite directions... they always face to the same plane.. so when I twist around one poi passes slightly inside the other pois plane but both facing the outside wall direction.. so I'm a little confused.. but your description is right.. so maybe that was a typo?

my right does: 3, 2b, 1
my left does: 2a, 3, 1

I guess is rough way of doing it... its hard because its more like 3,2a,3 squeezed in to that 2a,3... because is only uses half a circle there..

lovely diagram, ben.. simple and effective..

oh and arashi I think his diagram might have pointed out one of the areas that's not done proper in that video... see when I do a 3bt inversion, it goe starting with the left::

my right does: 3, 2a, 1, 1, 2b
my left does:3, 3, 2b, 1, 2a

now when I do my butterfly inversion in the video my left hand turns early I believe.. so that the left doesnt do a full 2b, but does half 2b and half 2a...

if thats not what I missed then.. now I'm lost.. sorry arashi..

I may be using the term inversion wrong but when I've talked about antispin inversrions, and butterfly inversions... I'm still getting the poi to get the right 2b left 2a plane structure which results in the 'roll' in its variations.. what else am I missing about the inversion definition? Please don't ask me to reread what you've put, because if that helped, I wouldnt be asking now.. frown

oh.. and just to clarify.. I'm using 2a and 2b in the sense of buzzsaw space in its general sense.. so like the 5bt inversion would still use 2a and 2b just in a buzzsaw space centered more in the 2a..


I also think I'm a fan of the lead hand label of inversions.. I was teaching some people inversions a couple days ago, and they picked up a lot quicker when it was explained in terms of same side hand and cross side hand lead.. then again it has drawbacks Im sure..


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tenticle


tenticle

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Posted:Written by: Rev

how would you explain antispin inversions ben?




I wouldn't...as i'm not sure how you'd do one. far as i'm concerned, what i know as antispin and what i know as inversions are the same thing with different bits highlighted by forcing particular planes...

Written by: Rev

when I do antispin, my poi don't face in opposite directions... they always face to the same plane.. so when I twist around one poi passes slightly inside the other pois plane but both facing the outside wall direction.. so I'm a little confused.. but your description is right.. so maybe that was a typo?

my right does: 3, 2b, 1
my left does: 2a, 3, 1




No, it wasn't a typo... we've been aiming for different things from antispin... you have been trying to emphasise the top hand going to the bottom hand-movement, which makes the poi use the same side plane for a brief while to get around the crossed hand, while i've been trying to de-emphasise the swing through the same side to keep the planes and beats neat and tidy... either way needs a bit of a fiddle, yours has that swing that make it look like it uses the same side plane, mine you keep the planes facing in opposite directions and try to make 2a and 2b as close as possible, but loose the obvious reverse hand motions... the only part that could be said to be uninverted would be the swing through the same side, but that happens on the opposite side of the poi's circle from your body, where planes except crosed side and same side don't really exist because theres nothing to define them... the diagram should probably look like this:

Non-Https Image Link


Written by: Rev

oh and arashi I think his diagram might have pointed out one of the areas that's not done proper in that video... see when I do a 3bt inversion, it goe starting with the left::

my right does: 3, 2a, 1, 1, 2b
my left does:3, 3, 2b, 1, 2a




this is a 3bt weave with buzzsaw inverts, and isn't inverted all the time, just through the buzzsaw zone... going back to the diagram, when the left poi is in 1, the plane is facing left, when it is in 2 or 3, it's facing right, when the right is in 3 it's facing right, 2 or 1 and it's facing left.
thus, while your poi are both in 3 they are not inverted, nor when they are both in 1. while they are both in 2 they are inverted. while the left poi is in 2 or 3, the right must be in 1 or 2 for it to be inverted, while the left poi is in 1, the right has to be in 3 which is spinning by your sides...

to make what you've got above fully inverted, make it do this:
right: 2b, 2a, 1, 1, 2b
left: 3, 3, 2b, 2a, 2a

which is an inverted 3bt with buzzsaw inverts in.

Arashi, feel free to tell me i'm talking out of my arse here...

--ben


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arashi


arashi

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Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2363
Posted:are you kidding? i have no clue anymore eek
i'm just gonna rub my chin and say, "yeah, ummhmmmm" every once in a while at this point winkbut you're one of the few people who gets me around here so give it your best shot biggrin
well, now inversion and isolation and antispin are all the same so we're actually getting somewhere... "(t)he spins his mind"


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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arashi


arashi

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Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2363
Posted:actually i just took a look at these for a bit and as far as inversion you are both right. ben's description has more inversions in it adn shows an understanding of the principle (i call it a crosser inversion) and rev's description is indeed what i call a 3 beat inversion -as it stems off of the traditional 3 beat- or more appropriately the three beat stems off the polar point called an inversion. a bit of difficulty may be stemming from the beat word, to me a 3bt has nothing to do with beats or circles and less to do with weaves, but rather the position of the hands for the particular crossover. i call that position the 3bt spider poiboxII calls them 2nd degree crossovers. rev, can you see how there's a polar aspect to each of the inversions?



but the antispin word is still eluding me a bit. where exactly are these half circles coming into play, are they like mini lockouts or parallel threading ?


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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Rev
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Rev

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Posted:ok.. now I understand why things are different.. I thinnk.... see when I do antispin I never have planes that face different directions... EVER... see the whole point of my errors early on in antispin was that I used planes in different directions and missed the point... try spinning to keep them facing the same plane.. if you don't, then why call it antispin??? because its no longer an 'anti' version of the weave it copies if the planes are facing the same direction... by facing one plane inside you turn turn the spin of that poi to inside rather than outside.. so instead of two outside spins you get an outside and an inside..
for example.. my antispin

my right does: 3, 2b, 1
my left does: 2a, 3, 1


is the same as my normal 3bt weave... when speaking of plane faces.. because even though wetalk about keeping weaves in the same plane same direction, most of us thread them a little.. hell that's how I learned my higher beat weaves (using the wrist like a thru-wrap and kinda threading the weave...) so when I weave one hand is always a little further out than the other..

so when I antispin my planes are ALWAYS the same as my normal spin ones...


arashi.. heres antispin as simple as it can be made... spin a clockwise circle with your left hand about chest high... that's the clock middle.. now take the right hand and spin a clockwise circle at 12:00 over the left hand.. now bring the right hand from 12:00 -> 3:00->6:00->9:00 ... no problems there.. that's normal spin.. now from 9:00 bring the right hand to 6;00->3:00->12:00 that's antispin..

now.. on the subject of antispin inversions.. lets start with the 3bt.. like the 3bt I mentioned in my post above..

for normal spin the 3bt inversion does this:
my right does: 3, 2a, 1, 1, 2b
my left does:3, 3, 2b, 1, 2a

my antispin inversion uses this exact motions as well.. that is to say my hands.. do this motion facing these planes.. my poi however are spinning in the opposite direction.. spinning in the right planes, facing the right ways, and moving through the right progression just spinning wrong.. kinda like taking the clockwise spinning poi from 9:00->6->3->12... in fact to get a better picture..

have the left poi spin a reverse circle in the 2b spot.. take the right poi and spin a reverse circle in the 2a plane but further away from you... now imagine we turned the clock sideways.. so that the right hand is still at 9:00.. and the left is still in the center.. spin the right poi under the left arm, infront of you and back over the left arm.. stilll spinning the poi reverse..


and arashi.. its kinda like parallel threading...half of parallel threading is normal spin and half is antispin.. if I'm thinking of the same thing.. take a same direction ttn.. half normal spin half antispin..

anyway.. I hope we can bridge the communication gap here.. because there's sooo much fun to be had.. oh and can we talk about this using different terms.. like same hand and cross hand or something.. like the 3bt inversion that I descrribed would be the sameside hand lead... and the 5bt inversion would be the cross side hand lead? because it kinda doesnt make sense to talk about rolling a 5bt inversion into a 3bt inversion.. whereas it does make sense to talk about doing a cross side hand led inversion into a sameside hand led inversion before crossing to the other side.. or is that more confusing.. ?


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"Buy the ticket... Take the ride..." -Raoul Duke
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tenticle


tenticle

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Posted:i dont call that one a 3bt inversion because it's only partly inverted, i call it a same direction split time 1st transition weave with inverted buzzsaw... a normal 3bt is a same direction split time1st transition weave, although to get the weave tag it has to be all four transitions involved in forwards and reverse... there's a lot more you can do with inversion than just the buzzsaw bit. particularly as the buzzsaw bit can be used in inverted and non inverted moves. and i only call something a crosser if it's based on a reel, otherwise it's just a pause after the lead poi transitions in a weave type move.

anti spin comes from doing an inverted 3bt, ie left poi goes through planes 3 3 2 and the right goes 2 1 1, but instead of bringing the poi coming up buzzsaw over and around the crossed arm, you bring the crossed arm (the one on top) over to the same side, around the poi coming up buzzsaw, and back to the crossed side (so it's now the bottom) without doing a full circle... it exits the top of the circle on the crossed side, and reenters at the bottom, but in the process has had to go to the same side to fit. It's a bit of a plane munge and likes to go to atomic rather than back to how it was. It looks a lot cooler if you skip the hand-on-top-goes-to-the-bottom bit and isolate the buzzsawing poi around the crossed arm instead.

I need a camcorder.

--ben


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