Forums > Advanced Poi Moves > inversions, insides, atomics, oh my!

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arashi
arashi

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Location: austin,tx
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Posted:edit; okay glass just smacked me in the head with the obvious notion that inverted means upside down as well as the definition i went by, in which inverted means; reversed, in a contrary direction. so i am considering changing my terminology, but i have edited this to make sense with the stuff in the trinity thread. i'm just warning you that i may change this post when i get the time to give a flying fart. anyway this will make sense for a little while til i can change things to confuse you again wink



first, the crossed arm inverted weaves, which add two beats to a odd number weave...

the counting on this is pretty tricky, since it comes out of a weave that already has beats. in general for beat counts i go by the # of beats on each side of the crossover, since that way you don't have to be symmetrical to have it make sense. but the crossover happens at the entrance into the inversion so i label the inverted weave by which weave position you came into it from. there's so many variations that this may make sense later.

first, try the 3 beat inverted weave, which is



3 beat weave, but the crossover goes between your arms instead of to the other side. your arms, you will notice, are crossed, so you have to do an split time isolation with both hands so the chains don't wrap your arms.



next try it out of the five beat, which makes a 5 beat inverted weave.



insides are like buzzsaws but are not between your arms, they are between your arms and your body. take a buzzsaw in front, and drop your hands to your sides. now the wicks come under your armpits, and the chains are inside your arms. you can take a bfly or a spider and inside them, so if you do a bfly in front, you bend forward and do it inbetween your arms and your tummy. do them in the side plane, too.

now if you take a buzzsaw, do it inside at your side, and the take it around your back, keeping the same buzzsaw plane direction the whole time, you have a BTB inside. now try that, with an inverted weave instead of a buzzsaw. ouch. wear a cup. or "box" if your british tongue



I have edited this title and post and cut out all the "buzzsaw" terms. Hope this makes more sense now!

EDITED_BY: arashi (1107654577)


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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arashi
arashi

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Location: austin,tx
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Total posts: 2363
Posted:uh oh i'm tipsy and in the middle of a room ful of conversations at my pals' party so sorry if this makes no sense.
nice. i'm actually really stoked cause now we can have a reference to talk about insides more. it's hard to be absolutely sure with the fuzz but i'm pretty sure that this is not an inversion but a wonderful example (especially cause it's video and now we can understand the talk) of a type of _inside_ ttn weave tipped on it's side. it's a real fine line with some of these isolated insides and inversions... see if you can do that all in front of your body starting from a fwd butterfly and ending with crossed bfly, staying in the wall plane by going more obviously inside, rsther than across the inside while moving from right to left. if the left poi went over the right arm it would be inverted, did i see it right?
IOW for these types of isolated inside ttn weaves the threading is happening toward rather than away from your body as in normal ttn which makes for very fun stuff. it's like doing an isolated bfly threading during the inside pass, after bringing the cahin around from the far outside to start it. i think . beerchug


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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Rev
Rev

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Posted:I'll try and make a a clearer vid but this does EXACTLY what the inverted same direction weave does.. I believe there is a link above in this thread for waht I mean by a same direction inverted (buzzsaw) weave..





whatI do in the clip that is hard ot make out is as follows..



start with the forward butterfly in the right side plane.. the right poi comes over the left arm and up into the buzzsaw (hence the cross.. which isnt clear in the vid because I'm trying to make the left poi swing through)



this is the point wehere people normally get tangled right... but see the thing is you don't HAVE to get tangled right there... the left poi swings through the buzzsaw (under the right arm) while the right poi is going back over the left arm to leave the buzzsaw.. the left poi then does its beat over the left arm to exit the buzzsaw as the right arm is doing its first beat on the left side..



voila.. crossed inverted bf weave..



now... you may be asking for something different.. BUT this is exactly what happens during a same direciton buzzsaw weave that does 3 beats outside.. and the hand over hand inside (2bts)... just going opposite direction.. remember that when doing the same direction.. forward weave... from the right side.. the right goes over the left and comes up in the buzzsaw.. while the left poi comes under the right arm and into the buzzsaw.. the right goes over the left and exits.. the left goes over the left amr and extis (these last to being the hand over hand part) you see what I mean..



spin it.. I promise it works as I say it is. and it can be done way clean.. so that you can do it perfect and smooth same time and split time..





now I guess the next question is...



are you asking for something else... in which case I need an example of the same direction version that you are trying to do opposite...



edit: checking back over I don't think any of the links in this thread go to the vid I'm tlkaing about... but coleman (I think) brought up a link in one of the threads we were discussing in to a clean vid of the same direciton buzzsaw weave.. that we all agreed was the 3bt crossed version.. 3bt outside.. 2 bt hand over hand.. and pending that that is the type of inverted weave that you were looking for bf.. the that part is done. and we canmove on to the higher bt forms..


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Richee
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Location: Prague
Member Since: 15th Jan 2002
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Posted:I think for more complicated tricks like u described is always better to make short clip. For me its hard to imagine it and after
many years doing Poi, the describes for trick become just more and more complicated. Im sorry.


POI THEO(R)IST

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spiralx
spiralx

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Posted:There are several videos Rev has posted a couple of posts back! :P

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Rev
Rev

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Posted:Written by: spiralx

There are several videos Rev has posted a couple of posts back! :P



"oh look at the kitty.."- Robin Williams 'live on broadway'

ubblol

I've been working harder to try and get clips up even when they aren't clear like the latter 2 of 3 clips above..


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arashi
arashi

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Posted:(oh boy now i'm doing this from memory)

well, first let me say that i still love this move. but

1) it is possible to do this all flattened out right in front of you on the inside wall plane- doing so might make the fine point easier to understand

and

2)when your left wick passes _under- your right arm and not over it, the planes are effectively facing in hte same direction, inside, since your right arm is crook'd up and pointing toward you at that time. so even though the left wick is swinging through the "buzzsaw" (gagpower rangers monster) the planes' directions aren't contrary. to fully invert it the left plane would have to face contrary to the right poi's plane. by passing _over_ the right forearm, it would doing this because then the right hand would just be crooked-but still, crooked _past_ the inversion. it's a fine point, to be sure, and not a judgement on how cool any move is. but, once we get past this understanding, it may make sense why i _think_ they need to be different by categorizing the multitude of other moves. really in the end it doesn't matter except that there's some really complex moves in here and the distinctions must be made for clarity. actually, well it does help because my kind of math shows where more moves can exist. doing crossed inversions and insides just makes for the need for very astute definitions shrug



p.s. not having flesh colored socks and having 2 different color socks would help even more ubbangel


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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Rev
Rev

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Posted:ok.. I'm kinda confused.. now..
on point 1- the first clip is doing this motion completely in the front plane.. the second half of it being what the whole ttn would look like rather then the half that I later use in the bf weave one..

on point 2- I'm not sure if that'ts error in the clip or error in what I was triyng to do.. so can you give the move a spin having a rough guage to go by clipwise and text description to hammer the rest out.. because I'm having trouble in that as alredy stated.. the hand motions for the inverted weave (same direction, forwards, right to left) and this move are identical.. or let me rephrase the path the poi move.. [right over left into buzzsaw(which begins liek the hand over hand part of the ame direciton inversion) and then over left again (coming out the buzzsaw) left comes under the right arm into the buzzsaw..the rigght begins its outside left beat as the left comes over the right wrist.. I wish I could draw this one but I'm afraid this is a dousy.. or rather code it..

how about this.. you try and spin it and come back... and I'll see what I can do about a better clip.. maybe using longsleeves to help I dunno make the poi easier to follow..


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arashi
arashi

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Posted:well, i may or may not be able to see this vid again! i'm going to my friend's house again tonight but until i ask the question at the end here it won't matter, and i can't do a frame by frame from memory.
Written by:
the left poi swings through the buzzsaw (under the right arm)


Written by:
the rigght begins its outside left beat as the left comes over the right wrist.



sorry these two confuse me here. they seem mutually exclusive. i thought from the vid that the left chain went under your r. arm, and that's why your r. elbow was up, so it could pass under it.
but either way to invert it it must go both over AND under the right arm. i couldn't tell from the vid which it did, but i couldn't see it doing both, which is why it didn't seem lke an inversion to me. i could see your move here being an inversion if
a) it goes over-
and 1)then comes around on the very outside (underneath) of the right chain at the end of the move for an "inverted afterthought", an airwrapped isolated bfly beat
or 2)goes over then comes back down _under_ your right arm before you move your right arm out of the way by putting it further into a crosser.

b) it goes under- and then passes up and over the right arm or chain at the end of it as an "inverted afterthought" but going under the arm definitely makes for a less likely inversion, there may be some in there but that would be a classic example of a crossed inside "entrance from the back door"
basically, does your left poi ever do a rotation around your right arm?


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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Rev
Rev

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Posted:ok... I have the answer to this..



yes in fact it does go over the right arm...

it comes under the right arm to get into the buzzsaw,... but goes abck ovber the right arm to exit the buzzsaw...



thx for pointing that out.. I ahdnt' noticed.. it...



I'm defintately going to try and make a new clip with a longsleeve shirt to help see the poi better.. and II can use a striped and solid poi.. problem is they are two different weights , and one is stratchy.. so its going to be awkward.. oh yeah and the striped one might not show up so good.. but I'll see what I can do..



just to clarify the paths they actually go like this:



right poi over left arm, under left arm, up into buzzsaw coming over leftarm, as the left poi passes under the right armand then back over the right arm to exit the buzzsaw... now here's why the video is off.. and its the clip not the mvoe I was trying to do.. in the part where thre left poi is supposed to come over the right arm.. it should pass just over the right wrist, but I thinkit passes tto the left of the right arm, because of a need for clearance... its very difficult squeezing the poi through...



in the clip this is where I bend over and drop my left arm down some... so the right arm isnt as far over as it should be.. thus making the left poi come further left..



hope that helps..



ps.. plz try and spin it... I could make clip after clip until I nail one clean, but I imagine you could nail a clena one yourself.. plus hands on could probably answer questions better then I, no?



actually you don't even have to pick up your poi...

put your right wirst on your left wrist.. now roll them like a forward buzzsaw.. but bring your hands over your left shoulder as you do it.. that should help you visualize.. and see how the left comes back over the right..

EDITED_BY: Rev (1092374111)


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arashi
arashi

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Posted:Written by:
P.s. plz try and spin it



eek uhh...ubblol

man i wonder if you realize that the problem isn't that i can't understand the move you've done-

it's that i can do like 30 (made that # up) very different kinds of moves that could look very similar (if you get somebody to spank me hard enough) and can't quite figure _exactly_ which one you're doing but to tell you more about the differences between all of them i have to know exactly which you're doing. and once you understand the differences there's lot's more places you can apply the same stuff.

anyways after the left poi goes under the right elbow and "goes over the right arm to exit the buzzsaw", this is the magick moment, exactly where is it as it is doing this? next to your wrist on the side away from your body doing fwd bfly? it is at ther very end of the pattern, right, on the last half of the beat? not going back down and inbetween the arms and back out, right? and where is the right chain in it's pattern as it is in this last part of the beat?


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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Rev
Rev

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Posted:I don't know else to describe whileI wait on a better clips since I don't do that one clean enough for you to follow what I'm trying to present...

how about I explain everything from side plaen to side plane rather then how I do it in the vid, which is more like turning two wall planes..


when you start.. the right hand goes over the left forearm.. as it(r) comes up in the buzzsaw it should be swinging up near the right armpit, and begin going back over the elbow/bicep.. (this way you maximize the room by having it spiral the length of the left arm)

the left poi must spin under the right bicep on its down swing , and come up in the buzzsaw on its up swing near the left elbow.. ***this is the tricky part.. *** at this moment the right wrist should be sitting on/about the left elbow.. so when the left poi make its up swing in the buzzsaw near the left elobow.. it it also passing between you and the right wrist on that elbow.. this is where you shift your torso from action on the right side. to action on the left (this shift in the torso is just a slight angle off straight parallel with wallplane) where you continue to swing the left poi over the right wrist AND left arm which puts you doing the revers bf.. ttn... whatever you wish..


now.. the key part is... YOU DONT NEED POI to follow what Im doing..
take your left arm and point it out to the right, put your your right wrist on the left forearm, as you roll your right wrist up in the buzzsaw the left hand comesup in the right arm pit.. the right hand goes over the left bicep <HOLD> right now.. the right hand should be pointing left sitting on top the left bicep.. while the left forearm is on top of the right forearm with the lef thand pointed down.. if you lift the left hand up you see how it comes over both the right arm AND over the left arm.. bringing both outside..

granted the path your hands move are slightly different from the path of the poi.. (the left hand coming up near the right armpit, where the lef tpoi comes up on the opposite side.. but dman man... I dunno how many ways to describe it.. )


spiral- can you help me out any since you've done it? or at least go 'yeah it works' lol..
coleman- have you had a go at it? maybe you too can help...

though in all honesty, I know you cna hit on it better yourself arashi.. I know you keep saying that there are tons of things I -could- be doing.. but jeezum man.. its a crossed inverted bf weave... fully crossed.. without ifs, ands, buts, or maybes... (though that's not how the clip shows I agree)


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spiralx
spiralx

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Posted:Can I just say that while I did it, I really need to spend some more time working on it so I actually know exactly what the [censored] it was I did wink

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Rev
Rev

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Posted:ok... here's some more...



the first shows the hand motions without spinning.. step by step... so you can see where they are supposed to go..



the second is a compilation of a front view, side view, and front view with two different socks... (whihc was weird)



the third is the second slowed down so that its easier to follow..



the first (right click, save as)



the second (right click, save as)



the third (right click, save as)



I'm wearing a solid color long sleeve shirt so they should show up better.. but still not any cleaner..


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arashi
arashi

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Posted:okay now i'm absosmurfly sure. faith man! i've been right, all my posts here are correct. the hump here is an incorrect understanding of definitions. (and maybe ubbangel you haven't tried playing with some of the basics of the inside family yet)
inverted is not a place in space, it is a state of the planes facing contrary to each other.

do a fwd. bfly. now inside it and keep it going between your arms and belly. now thread your r. hand either over or under the left- so, you are doing a crossarm inside fwd bfly. now when the wicks are at the top of the circle, the side closest your face, cross over into the crossed fwd bfly. the infamous "barrel roll" is back but it's different, ja?

the move you are doing is the exact same move with a motion in the beggining that is throwing your understanding of the whole definitions off. by bringing your right wick into the arms the same way you would if you were going to do an inverted weave, you allow the wick to enter into the inside bfly from the backside without having to cross your hand under. as i said, you can do this whole move right in front of you if you want.

nice try though tongue
but no cigar devil


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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spiralx
spiralx

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Posted:Waa, inside butterflies are surprisingly hard frown

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Rev
Rev

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Posted:I admit that that was where I started. I played a clip of that from the get go..





but I guess what I'm not understanding is arashi is how I can do the EXACT smae hand motions as the same direction inverted weave we've all known and loved.. but yet this using this motions ISNT it..



I'm gonna need a bit more explaining on that one..



edit:

I'm back now with some more edumakation....



ok if you use the hand motions of the inverted weave.. right over left under up in buzssaw, left under right elbow.. right out left.. left poi over right and left and out left side..



now if you try that motion with a butterfly.. there's not enough room in the buzzsaw area.. HOWEVER, if you being with your torso turned (here comes the body movement) it frees those planes up a litte adding the celarance needed.. but instead of doing the cross barely right of center.. your doing it closer to the right side plane.. and instead of uncrossing left of center.. it happens closer to the left side plane..



now if you do a normal inverted weave facing the planes the same way as I do in the butterfly vid.. it exagerattes the movements necessary.. but looks exactly the same..



see you can do this by isolating as well.. bedcause the isoaltions lets you spiral the weave down the ar a bit more./.. and example being bringing the right over the left wrist (with the left wrist on the right side) and having it finally come up from the buzzsaw near the left bicep and over.. you see what I mean about having to adjust the planes..



though I can't say I've played with lots of inversions.. (that I knwo of..) I've got my variations in all the planes.. but one thing I do know are the version I am doing.. (same direction at least.. ) and this is exactly every bit of that.. I'm not talking just hand motions.. I'm talking paths, planes, etc... I wish I could draw.. I might see sunday about doing something on paint..



edit, take 2: ok.. so one thing that I havent' brought up.. that I think needs to be said.. is the body movement isnt the only reason why it looks funny... the left hand is antispun... it took me a bit to figure out why its so awkward.. but the left hand follows the same path as the same direction version... which didnt strike me as odd until now.. it also explains why the left poi is always in the wrong place during its spin.. because I'm spinning reverse relative to the forward rolling hand motion...



let me clarify.. whne you normally butterfly weave with the right hand going forward spin and the left poi going reverse spin... you end up bf weaving.. meaning the left hand makes reverse motions (the same as during a reverse weave).. not forward hand motions spinnign reversse.. and hence not antispin by definition as some people(inlcuding myself) thought for a period of time..



howeve in the context of the hand over hand part of this move in the clip.. the left poi has to spin inside the left elbow on the up swing into the buzzsaw and then over the right and left arm on the down swing..





perhaps this is why it doesnt look like you think it should or whatever.. so coleman I guess you were right when you said maybe antispin could fix the inverted bf weave problem.. but in not eof this I have to say we are both right and wrong arashi.. it is a crossed inverted bf weave.. its not the one perse that we were going for.. which I feel would be somehow doing the inverted cross and out with only normal spin.. because in workign the other directions... I keep using one spin and one antispun.. but I guess my next question is: does the math say it cna be done with both normal spin?

EDITED_BY: Rev (1092505405)


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arashi
arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx
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Posted:let's stop this here. before this otherwise simple subject gets really confusing and especially BEFORE i get frustrated. i couldn't be ANY further from a desire to prove to you that what i'm saying is "right" and what you're saying is "wrong."



these are just words, symbols for concepts of spinning i'm trying to express. i don't understand how this has become an issue of right or wrong in the first place. this is only an issue of _my_ terminology that i don't think you understand yet. i already know and have taken into account all of these things about this move that you are telling me. please afford me the respect that i do- i wouldn't be teaching this stuff if i didn't. if you know a lot more about the subject and want to come up with your own way of classifying and teaching this stuff then go ahead, but



it's SILLY to try to tell me that the red apple in my bedtime story is not red.



this is just one move. there should be no level of judgement we can place on it. by now i'm simply trying to come to an understanding. i know this argue/debate thing is sort of human nature and sometimes dialogue like you are engaging in can be a productive way to learn, (and up til now in an inefficient, argumentative way has been productive)... ther's better ways!



i bring this up because you (and i'm sure some other people) did this with airwrap discussions too, before you even knew what the more experienced people were trying to tell you, you start telling them what their words mean! and then go teaching it to other people! that's just a recipe for chaos and i wonder if you see what you're doing. sorry but i'm not going to get into it with you. nana i started this thread, specifically, on a previously undefined family of moves precisely so i could get the whole community involved in creation without misunderstandings.

EDITED_BY: arashi (1092575980)


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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arashi
arashi

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Location: austin,tx
Member Since: 21st Mar 2002
Total posts: 2363
Posted:and now i've spent all this time trying to argue with you about whether your video REALLY IS inverted or not rather than answering a question like...
"really? inside? what do you mean?"
"Oh, that's what you mean. that's interesting. i know another move that looks like this and is sort of like what you call inside, try taking your left hand and then..."


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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Rev
Rev

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Posted:soapbox
actually this was the point

"nice. i'm actually really stoked cause now we can have a reference to talk about insides more."- arashi

and so.. if in your infinite wisdom this is to be disucssed.. we have something to discuss.. then it needs to be discussed nto jsut.. I don't want to hear your crap rev.. I know what I'm tlaking about but still can't do it or explain it..

I'm understand what you wanted.. and I understand what I did.,. I understand how they are close.. and I understand how they are different.. so pull your finger out of you arse for a second I wasnt being a dick if you read my last post.. (especially the edits) we are both right and both wrong.. I am right it is what I say it is.. I am wrong because its not the hand motions that you were specifically looking for.. that is not an issue.. the issue is that more things need to come to light..

for example.. I used antispin to get mine.. so this is what coleman might have been hinting at when he inquired that maybe AS could help sovle this probelm.. and as we've seen it does but it doesnt...

now I've tried working other angles.. and the only thing that I can see to get 3 outside and 2 inside.. but have the hands cross around each other without tanlging is to enter the thing normally and then AS back out.. but I can't keep my planes clean enough to do that.. yet..

now you can be pissy all you damn well want.. but I'm trying to move things forward here.. I thought (from the quote above) that you did too.. obviously I was mistaken.. you just want to blow things off, rather then move forward..

you can again try to find argument in my post but again that arugment (like your last one) is in your head..
kthxplz thankx


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arashi
arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx
Member Since: 21st Mar 2002
Total posts: 2363
Posted:umm

well here we go with the insults again!

I'm not getting involved in that.

my finger is not in my ass, i went back and read that post many times before i put it in and tried to make it as gentle a way to explain my point as possible.



there's this pattern in the way you interact. and it's too bad cause you've got a good head and a some talent, so i keep trying talk to you, but you don't listen. and your way of talking is very argumentative, which might be okay if you weren't someone WHO (self-admittedly)HARDLY KNOWS ANYTHING ABOUT WHAT HE'S ASSERTING. hte airwrap discussions got destroyed, mangled and buried, and nipped in the bud before they began, and you don't even see why, and here i am CALMLY trying to show you how, cause it's right here in front of us, and you're insulting AGAIN and after that really insulting elitist label you plugged onto me the last time we spent more than 5 minutes together i really am starting to give up. i'm about to not have a lot of time again and i won't be able to do this again for who knows how long. but i've spent all my time trying to get you to understand my terms cause i know while i'm gone you're going to start posting big huge posts about THE WRONMG THING and get a whole misunderstanding built up. why does this have to be so hard? sigh



i've tried to explain it a few times now. di you try doing my suggestions yet? you say you see the differeence, well, that difference is the point. i'm not arbitrarily making this stuff up, there's reasons. asking me nicely to justify those reasons is one thing. but you're simply telling me i am wrong, that this move IS inverted, but i just don't understand that it is!

you seem really hung up on your claim that this is inverted. why? because it proves that you know something i don't? i dunno. it's just a label for a move! and to keep thinking it is inverted i feel would be a mistake, because of reasons that i haven't gotten to tell you, we can't even get past this point and the reason is WAY down the road from here... look how much trouble we're having here and we have something to look at, a reference! you can keep truning me in to this evil figure in your mind but you seem really shut out to the fact that all i'm trying to say is, you need to listen more to people that know more about something than you do.



i'm not your dad, stop fighting me! i never said ANYTHING like this...



"i don't want to hear your crap rev. i know what i'm talking about but i still can't do it or explain it."



i HAVE explained it. i DO have an idea what i'm talking about, and i keep telling you that the problem is YOU don't know what I'M talking about.



actually you say you DO know what i'm talking about, and that makes this WORSE cause that means that you really are just staring me in the face and telling me i'm wrong. i feel like i'm heatedly arguing with a child about whether or not the sky is really blue. fine call the sky pink but it's going to move us backward and not forward. especially when you go around telling other people that this is inverted, and then later when they start playing with the other moves they start getting confused. any fun i was having teaching you this has left.

and if you can't keep from insulting me i really am not wasting any more of my time with you. please try and be more aware, huh? i feel like i've walked on eggshells here and done everything except said "NO REV YOU DON"T KNOW WHAT THE HELL YOU"RE TALKING ABOUT AND I DO" but you've put that attitude onto me. if you read my words i've been very congenial but you keep turning this into an argument about a concept i made up long ago and have explored more than you can realise!

EDITED_BY: arashi (1092646712)


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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Rev
Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
Location: Apparently lost in my ego
Member Since: 14th Mar 2003
Total posts: 1269
Posted:oi...



blah blah.. oh wait more blah...



1)I brought this up for discussion... when it came to discussion you siaid no.. and left..



2) I said what it was.. and then realized where I err'd.. but the problem is that my err is a relative err.. meaning relative to 'a' it is and relative to 'b' its not.. hence the its right and wrong.. again furthering discussion.. to whihc you just gave the proverbial rant..



3) if you look at my post right after spiral's.. I state assertion number 2.. to which you ranted mate.. my response between your two was not me just blowing up.. it was me responding to your utter refusal to "discuss" anything..



"these are just words, symbols for concepts of spinning i'm trying to express..." [but refuse to discuss]

"this is only an issue of _my_ terminology that i don't think you understand yet. ." [think being an operative word there]

"i wouldn't be teaching this stuff if i didn't" [perhaps your teaching somewhere but sure isnt here]



I could go on quoting you for days arashi.. I never argued anything with any of those clips.. I asked once for an explanation and then before I got noe realized MY err.. you don't seem to understand that do you..



its your way or no way.. yes I've run into these problems before with the "airwrap".. not by "reinventing" the term.. but rather by asking very specific questions about what it was and wasn't only to get misleading or mixed responses.. the problem is not with the defintion of inverted.. it never was.. the problem is that you refuse to discuss anything..



I could not care less about arashi.. that's not an insult.. its the fact that you only want to help when it helps you.. when it comes to helping others.. you onyl want to go back to your elitism.. I dont' care...



I'm posting the stuff FOR others.. Im TEACHING others.. I'm LEARNING from others.. and I'm DISCUSSING with others.. unlike you.. ssave your hypocrisy for someone that cares mate.. even though you've managed to yet again turn a discussion to crap I will try to salvage it..



getting back to the point..



what we have assesed thusfar is tha in the clips we have a bf weave that uses same direction motions of an inverted weave with an opposite direction spin.. this puts the left poi anti-spinning in the buzzsaw part.. the question now becomes: can we do this with two normal spin or must we use a level of anti-spin to move the hands through, and if so at which points?



the clips above show the use of a single antispin to workout the crossed 3bt, however, I've been working on trying to adapt this to -a- 5bt version..



now I'm starting with the model of a same direction spin.. I find this works easiest with reverse spin, though you can apply it to forward.. it goes like this:

on the right side of a 5bt reverse weave.. after the twist the left hand usually leads to the left side.. however.. as your making the final twist.. the lft poi goes over the right and under, but instead of leading across, have it come up in the buzzsaw.. the easiest way to explain this motion is to turn your torso to the right side a little and as the left comes over the right, do like you would a forward buzzsaw weave.. but instead of taking the inverted weave further right (as you would normally if you were doing the forward 3bt inverted weave) bring it back left so that you cross to the left side of the reverse..



to some of you that discription is mud.. others will follow.. for those that dont' I'll try and get a clip up later this week.. schools starts next week so I have department meetings and such this week to keep me relaitvely occupied..



for those that do follow, does the same trick work with the opposite spinning? can you do a 5bt bf weave version of this, even if it is a cop out like the way I do the 3bt.. since IMO (which is wholly less then others infinite wisdom) is getting us steps closer to the true invertions should they be possible..



hopefully.. discussion will follow..


More useless information courtesy of Rev...
Confusing the masses, one post at a time...
"Obviously, you're not a golfer.."- The Dude
"Buy the ticket... Take the ride..." -Raoul Duke
"FEMA has never done catastrophe planning..."-Michael Brown

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arashi
arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx
Member Since: 21st Mar 2002
Total posts: 2363
Posted:{slaps forehead)

my god it's like talking to a brick wall.

you still don't understand what inverted means. you're still using the word incorrectly. how many ways do i have to try to explain the same thing before you even start to try my explanations, much less respond to them?? did you EVEN TRY to do this move the way i suggested? you haven't mentioned it yet.

you've got to be the most stumbling arrogant person i've ever met, and you keep throwing this elitist thing at me, ever heard of the word "projection?" i don't believe that spending more time than someone else makes someone better than another person. these insultsare just a big huge road sign of a personal problem you have with me because i keep trying to tell you things you don't want to hear. if i am such an elitist then why did all those people get online to tell you that i've spent countless hours teaching and sharing ideas with them? sorry but you're just spewing your censored all over the room again.



"its your way or no way.. yes I've run into these problems before with the "airwrap".. not by "reinventing" the term.. but rather by asking very specific questions about what it was and wasn't only to get misleading or mixed responses.. the problem is not with the defintion of inverted.. it never was.. the problem is that you refuse to discuss anything.."



ummm... i've spent probably 20 hours at least on this thread this week. so as before with airwraps rather than try to understand what people are saying you just take the information and run with it, rather than trying to understand the people who taught you the stuff. now you say you knew these "inverted" moves before, that i didn't teach you any of it. fine. maybe you did. i can believe (barely) you taught yourself this one move i posted, out of countless variations. but you still are lumping it in with the wrong family, if you knew MORE of them it'd be obvious. you haven't responded at all to the thing i've said over and over and over and over about crossing an inside.

in fact nowhere in any of your descriptions or questions YET have i seen the word inside at ALL, nor have you responded productively to my assertion that it is inside, you just keep hammering away at how this is a different kind of inversion than "we thought it would be." and at the end of each of your posts you just reassert that i'm wrong , that it's inverted. how CAN i teach when you won't listen?



this is really simple. all i'm asking you to do is slow down and listen to people. if you'd get over this fugged up daddy complex you've got with me it'd probably help.



if you had read any of the stuff i posted on this thread there's about 40 moves sitting right there teasing you. but first you have to actually humble yourself to read what i said and {gasp} TRY TO DO THE THINGS I'M SUGGESTING. you haven't responded to any of my posts about insides, you just keep redescribing your move. none of the things you are saying are wrong EXCEPT THE THING I KEEP TELLING YOU YOU DON"T UNDERSTAND YET. this hasn't been a dialogue from the beginning, it's a confrontation.

and if me not wanting to talk to people who obviously have no respect for me and continually show it in passive agressive ways is elitist, then fine. you've been right all along.

i'm not dignifying your posts with a response until i even see a hint of the word "inside". remember me? the guy on the other end of this conversation?



your posts here describing this move are all correct, if you take the word inverted out of them. you seem to be listening to me only so far as to try to prove that it is still a kind of inversion.


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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Rev
Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
Location: Apparently lost in my ego
Member Since: 14th Mar 2003
Total posts: 1269
Posted:moving past distractions..
I have since realized that the 5bt version (of what i was doing opposite direction) is actually much easier then the 3bt.. the planes are exceedingly wider.. I didn't have time to give it a spin before.. so if you take and do what I do in the clip.. but instead of bringing it across from right to left, bring it the opposite way across the right side.. if that makes sense... so I guess we can strike that question...


More useless information courtesy of Rev...
Confusing the masses, one post at a time...
"Obviously, you're not a golfer.."- The Dude
"Buy the ticket... Take the ride..." -Raoul Duke
"FEMA has never done catastrophe planning..."-Michael Brown

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spiralx
spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK
Member Since: 1st May 2002
Total posts: 1376
Posted:Two questions for arashi...

1) So what is your definitive definition of "inverted" then... I had thought from your past posts it meant when you're spinning in planes that are facing each other like in a buzzsaw.

2) Are you saying that this move Rev posted a video of is basically the same as the one you're talking about on the last page where you start from a crossed inside bf and then "fold" it out?


"Moo," said the happy cow.

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arashi
arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx
Member Since: 21st Mar 2002
Total posts: 2363
Posted:2 quick answers... that will make no sense i'm sure mad



1)well this answer i'll try again but it's complex and i think we'll have to stay pace with each other cause there's no definitions or reference for any of this yet. i figured it would take a forever to really get there using words so i haven't really tried yet. and once we resolve this video issue this should be much easier and less time consuming!



you have to look at the way the planes are "facing", in this i mean your hands/fingertips/grips are on one side, the whole plane faces the other.



in this kind of spinning, spinning in a box of planes, there's several hand positions, 1)both planes inverted, 2) one inverted- one out(like the bfly with one hand pointing toward the front like normal, one inverted- so the right arm would be wedged inbetween the two planes), and finally 3) both out. the planar term "inside" is ONE KIND of "both planes out", inverted is the both inverted. there's plane positions in space, relative to the body, inside and outside. the planar terms and the hand position terms are separate. these moves really make more sense as far as the way i personally divide them up if you condense it down, in this case (i think) to just an inside move, because when you cross your arms and do stuff like isolate things it makes the rules really funny but everything i've found seems to make sense if you start from here.



2)(sorry rev i don't want you to think i'm talking around you but he asked, hopefully you will read this answer too.) well i hope but unfortunately i can't seem to get him to try to do what i'm talking about or answer my question so i don't know for sure. so this is all still just words. and as i just said a paragraph ago, it'd really help if i knew, if this move DID condense down to be an inside move then yes. i'm pretty sure these moves are the same. if they aren't i won't know until he tells me. until i do know, i have to fall back to the next level which is to try to explain the math behind a really complex idea since there's hundreds of variations in here, there's a bazillion ways to do a butterfly much less all the airwrap and isolating variations in these higher degree combinations. so all i ask is that you don't spread a term into use while i'm gone at least until you THINK you know what i mean, use your own words(cause there's other ways to look at things i'm sure). so next time i can talk with you about this we understand each other. and now have to go to bed i've been up working all night and i have lots of stuff to do for the next month or so including going to burning man and now i ended up spending almost two hours doing this post. if the move rev is doing is the move i'm asking if he's doing then all that should make sense. if not i'm just being cryptic yet again


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:right smile

"1)both planes inverted, 2) one inverted- one out(like the bfly with one hand pointing toward the front like normal, one inverted- so the right arm would be wedged inbetween the two planes), and finally 3) both out. the planar term "inside" is ONE KIND of "both planes out", inverted is the both inverted."

so:
1) is the 'buzzsaw' or those crossarm inversion buzzsaw thingies?
2) is like what the 2bt crossed inverted weave produces. another example is the inverted beats in the notcoleman5 (i'm not sure i understand that inverted bf example)?
3) inside/outside is both planes facing or facing away from body - inside example is a (not btl) watermill; outside example is the weave)?

so 'fully inverted' means both planes are facing or facing past each other between the arms?

is this right dude?


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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spiralx
spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK
Member Since: 1st May 2002
Total posts: 1376
Posted:Well I'll admit that it doesn't quite cover everything no, but it gives me a clearer idea of where you're coming from. So for instance if you have one hand spinning a circle in front of you the other hand can be spinning a circle



a) with the plane facing outwards so the hand is inbetween the plane and your body, or



b) with the plane facing inwards so the hand is between that plane and the plane of the outermost poi,



but in both cases the planes of the two poi are in the same place...



Hmm... ubbloco biggrin


EDITED_BY: spiralx (1092759250)


"Moo," said the happy cow.

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arashi
arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx
Member Since: 21st Mar 2002
Total posts: 2363
Posted:grr i had to check again b4 i went to bed... mad biggrin

spiral, yes and yes

cole,
1)yes, and also everything you have in 2
2) (shhh pretend you didn't see this #) this one is sort of fuzzy and i'm not even going to get into trying to get us to understand each other yet, please, cause we haven't really talked about it much yet anywhere, i skimmed rev's "threading" thing and it MIGHT be that. it comes more to play in atomics than here. (once we get through this crap atomics will unfold like a lotus) slight chance rev's move may be in here if i saw it wrong
3)yup.

we haven't gotten to how rev's move fits in yet, i'm waiting for more hand/circle references to point at but it is a kind of 3) i think


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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arashi
arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx
Member Since: 21st Mar 2002
Total posts: 2363
Posted:"inverted" is one polar point, like an "event horizon," a focus around which the rest of the families create pretty shapes and wings.
how's that for cryptic you bastards spank biggrin
you can roll your arms around it with different techniques but the point is there
now go reread how I pondered abuot how we could overcome the inverted bfly


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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oli
not with cactus
Location: bristol/ southern eastern devo...
Member Since: 24th Jul 2003
Total posts: 2052
Posted:what you need is poi that go through arms...

i have nothing sensible to add to this conversation, just thought id let you it makes interesting if 'i dont really see how thats possble' reading. maybe one day.


Me train running low on soul coal
They push+pull tactics are driving me loco
They shouldn't do that no no no

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