Forums > Advanced Poi Moves > inversions, insides, atomics, oh my!

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arashi
arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx
Member Since: 21st Mar 2002
Total posts: 2363
Posted:edit; okay glass just smacked me in the head with the obvious notion that inverted means upside down as well as the definition i went by, in which inverted means; reversed, in a contrary direction. so i am considering changing my terminology, but i have edited this to make sense with the stuff in the trinity thread. i'm just warning you that i may change this post when i get the time to give a flying fart. anyway this will make sense for a little while til i can change things to confuse you again wink



first, the crossed arm inverted weaves, which add two beats to a odd number weave...

the counting on this is pretty tricky, since it comes out of a weave that already has beats. in general for beat counts i go by the # of beats on each side of the crossover, since that way you don't have to be symmetrical to have it make sense. but the crossover happens at the entrance into the inversion so i label the inverted weave by which weave position you came into it from. there's so many variations that this may make sense later.

first, try the 3 beat inverted weave, which is



3 beat weave, but the crossover goes between your arms instead of to the other side. your arms, you will notice, are crossed, so you have to do an split time isolation with both hands so the chains don't wrap your arms.



next try it out of the five beat, which makes a 5 beat inverted weave.



insides are like buzzsaws but are not between your arms, they are between your arms and your body. take a buzzsaw in front, and drop your hands to your sides. now the wicks come under your armpits, and the chains are inside your arms. you can take a bfly or a spider and inside them, so if you do a bfly in front, you bend forward and do it inbetween your arms and your tummy. do them in the side plane, too.

now if you take a buzzsaw, do it inside at your side, and the take it around your back, keeping the same buzzsaw plane direction the whole time, you have a BTB inside. now try that, with an inverted weave instead of a buzzsaw. ouch. wear a cup. or "box" if your british tongue



I have edited this title and post and cut out all the "buzzsaw" terms. Hope this makes more sense now!

EDITED_BY: arashi (1107654577)


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:watch me video to find out which planes i'm on about richee smile

by 'parallels' i meant "the connections" or "the similarities" between the buzzsaw and inside planes.

for me buzzsaw is two facing, non-overlapping planes - facing overlapping planes is what i think of as inverted.
i think rev's definitions are looser for buzzsaw and, by association, his definition of inverted is tighter.
'inside' for me describes a cross-arm buzzsaw (also described as a 'trailing poi entrance into buzzsaw' but this is misleading since you do not have to follow it into a buzzsaw with the other hand - see 3bt inside weave for example).

as far as my understanding goes, these inside and buzzsaw planes are often 'equivalent' in terms of transisitions in and out of them but have very different looks and feels.

and just out interest, where is the universal terminology listed richee...? ubblol hug


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Richee
HOP librarian
Location: Prague
Member Since: 15th Jan 2002
Total posts: 1841
Posted:
I saw the planes you are on and they seems to be
the same like mine smile Like this,right?

http://www.homeofpoi.com/gallery/showpho...=all&page=1
br>
About the terminology.... you know, I post you it yesterday smile

light,

:R


POI THEO(R)IST

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Rev
Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
Location: Apparently lost in my ego
Member Since: 14th Mar 2003
Total posts: 1269
Posted:Let me see if I can help you guys see where I'm coming from...

let's use the weave as a base... its a solid base and everything will contract down or expand from it.. the weave plane system..

Plane 1 | buzzsaw | Plane 2

everything si a variation on that.. EVERYTHING...

so lets start with a look at the different ways we can apply this:

Code:
/Front/
P1
Buzz
P2
P1|Buzz|P2 BODY P2|Buzz|P1
P2
Buzz
P1
/Back/


This is how it lines up.. now the buzzsaw that's at the sides is the same as this buzzsaw

Code:
P1* | buzz | P2*
Body


we are just moving the whole 3 plane spectrum into different positions..

and if you merge the first figure with the second figure, you get the 7 plane spectrum (whihc is why I'm using the * on the second set.. )

Code:
P1* | Buzz | P2*
/ \ | | / \
P1|Buzz|P2 BODY P2|Buzz|P1

because you can divide each of the larger planes (single planes [side planes] as we used to think of them ) into inner and outer planes.. with a buzzsaw in the middle..

the drill to work on.. is to take and master your inner-outer weaves.. rather than your larger planed normal weaves... the best way is to work right in front of you.. work on getting that outer wallplane to inner wallplane weave.. once you ahve that down, master your left outsdie to left inside and right outside to right inside weaves.. best thing to do is go left out -> left in -> left out -> right out-> right in -> right out -> loop back to left out and repeat..

as far as inversions go.. start with wallplane again.. learn how to do both of your outside inversions.. depending on your direction (clock or counter clock) one will be a 3bt and one will be a 5bt.. (b/c its like doing that side plane with you facing it) however, it will be easier than doing them in the side plane because wall p[lane gives you the most room for the arms to work with..

from there go onto your inside led inversions.. I gotta run now.. but I'll get to those when we come back.. just remember corks, windmills, and your outer-inner walplane weave will all work the same. preferably work on corks and the outer-inner.. they translate across easier.,. and building one hekps build the other.. hint- outer -> inner inversions will be top -> bottom and inner -> outer inversions will be bottom -> top..


More useless information courtesy of Rev...
Confusing the masses, one post at a time...
"Obviously, you're not a golfer.."- The Dude
"Buy the ticket... Take the ride..." -Raoul Duke
"FEMA has never done catastrophe planning..."-Michael Brown

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arashi
arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx
Member Since: 21st Mar 2002
Total posts: 2363
Posted:OOOOOH MEEEE OH MY i just saw the vid. cole your face looks so cute when you express your confusion in that spot ubblol

ok i'm really busy so i'll just say i read rev's stuff 2 posts back and it sounded right and i finally understood something rev was saying!!! the rest i'll read when i can. i'm still trying to get this code you guys are working with, the "buzzsaw" word is throwing me off... the way it is applying to kinds of inversions etc, seems like you are co-opting the word for a move into a new definition i don't get yet... but nontheless i am really excited that this is finally getting somewhere ubbrollsmile

also "3 beat inside weave" on your vid... don't have time to tell for sure what it is, but isn't that a simpler "following" inversion/crosser inversion, "notecoleman3?" or a crosser inside perhaps? at least when i say "inside weave" i mean something i haven't seen yet...

gotta go frown


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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Rev
Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
Location: Apparently lost in my ego
Member Since: 14th Mar 2003
Total posts: 1269
Posted:arashi-

1- the way I'm using buzzsaw and the wa others are using buzzsaw (as usual) are a little different.. cole highlighted that in his post above... basically his is strict and thus gives for a loose interpretation of inversions.. which might be closer to what you were presenting.. since basically his definition of buzzsaw is just an uncrossed inversion for the most part.. I one the other hand don't take the route that there are uncrossed inversions.. (at least think that's how to word it.. ) and for me buzzsaw is a plane (perhaps plane relation) in between any two planes is a buzzsaw space.. hence the buzzsaw term in between any two plane sets.. it doesnt have to be used.. but its there.. the buzzsaw space is where one can do buzzsaws or inversions.. depnding on how the planes are set in relation to each other.. but that's the only place where you get contrary facing poi in the same planar space..

2- by inside weave.. your talking about a weave that goes inside to inside or inside to outside.. I've talked about both.. the post you cited actually has the inside to inside weave that I talked to you about.. confused2


More useless information courtesy of Rev...
Confusing the masses, one post at a time...
"Obviously, you're not a golfer.."- The Dude
"Buy the ticket... Take the ride..." -Raoul Duke
"FEMA has never done catastrophe planning..."-Michael Brown

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:arashi - notcoleman3 is exactly what it is.
the inside beat is stolen directly from the notcoleman5 (the 5bt version just has extra outside beats).

will do me best to look up the inside to inside version and learn that smile

rev - i have printed you out and will take you home with me for a play later tonight.
when i say you, i obviously mean 'your posts'.
but i wish i could print out and take you home smile


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Richee
HOP librarian
Location: Prague
Member Since: 15th Jan 2002
Total posts: 1841
Posted:
We are on the same Weave smile,
Mission one completed smile
Mission two "Atomics aplication":
I will start:
---------------------------------------------
Vertical & Horizontal > Rotation

http://www.homeofpoi.com/gallery/showpho...=500&page=2
br>http://www.homeofpoi.com/gallery/showpho...=500&page=2
---------------------------------------------

light,

:R


POI THEO(R)IST

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Glåss
Glåss

The Ministry of Manipulation
Location: Bristol
Member Since: 8th Nov 2001
Total posts: 2523
Posted:skim read some of this thread and thinks.
You cats sound like you need the helical construct....
Mooooooo
ueber poi
smile


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Richee
HOP librarian
Location: Prague
Member Since: 15th Jan 2002
Total posts: 1841
Posted:smile



Edit: Exactly.



love nad light,



:R

EDITED_BY: Richee (1118863543)


POI THEO(R)IST

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spiralx
spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK
Member Since: 1st May 2002
Total posts: 1376
Posted:Written by: Richee
love nad light,


What do testicles have to do with love and light? Well perhaps that's a silly question ubblol


"Moo," said the happy cow.

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oli
not with cactus
Location: bristol/ southern eastern devo...
Member Since: 24th Jul 2003
Total posts: 2052
Posted:its an anagram tongue.... this is poi moves.... is supposed to be cryptic or something smile

Me train running low on soul coal
They push+pull tactics are driving me loco
They shouldn't do that no no no

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Nate
Nate

Groovy ga watashi no namae desu!
Location: Oxford, Oxfordshire, England
Member Since: 5th Aug 2004
Total posts: 1530
Posted:*gets put into thread by oli*

*runs away swiftly shite scared*


I like Languages.

Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug.gif" alt="" />

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Dragon7
Dragon7

addict
Location: Aotearoa (NZ)
Member Since: 17th Oct 2003
Total posts: 625
Posted:Wow i finally get it. smile Pity i still cant see the vid frown Is it down Cole? And thats not your 1st vid, iv seen you in one of simians. :P ubblol

Cool i just realized you can do this like the old school "off set" moves huh

Runs to play before someone can say "Noooo its like this..."


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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:dragon - you're right, i've been in a few videos online (smallboy's, ucof's, falmouth 3) but its the first one i made (filmed, editied and chose the music) and its the first one of *just* me smile


and back on topic:

"You cats sound like you need the helical construct...."

i don't see how it helps much dude...

is it fixed now or just that fuzzy thing still wink


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Richee
HOP librarian
Location: Prague
Member Since: 15th Jan 2002
Total posts: 1841
Posted:
Non-Https Image Link




:R

EDITED_BY: Richee (1118948971)


POI THEO(R)IST

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:ubblol biggrin

grouphug


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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bluecat
bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere
Member Since: 15th Dec 2002
Total posts: 5300
Posted:personally i thought your planes were VERY sketchy when you were drinking that beer, cole...

Holistic Spinner (I hope)

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:planes?

there was at best only one plane while i was drinking beer wink


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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bluecat
bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere
Member Since: 15th Dec 2002
Total posts: 5300
Posted:did you not see the other arm?

spank


Holistic Spinner (I hope)

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:what other arm?

i only have two!

what's going on?

i'm confused now...

when i was drinking beer, one arm had a poi and a bottle in it and the other had a static poi hanging from it - there is no plane here and the aforementioned sketchiness can therefore be said to not exist by association...

the video contains:
me demonstrating a bunch of planes (in the wheel plane set) and failing to show the possible existance of a right poi in the left buzzsaw plane with the pole facing to the right.
then i do a badass stella artois inspired poi head/glass bottle combination manipulation with a simultaneous left-handed blind gilligan.
the video ends with some weaves.

confused ?
you will be wink


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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[Nx?]
[Nx?]

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both
Member Since: 5th Nov 2001
Total posts: 3749
Posted:yo folks

actually been learning atomics, as i said i would, and i gots a whole bunch of applications and theories, but no time to post them up, and less time to read this thread. sorry.

suffice to say the next time i have three hours at a comp for free Im gonna make aqn illustrated guide.

one intresting move thats come out....

between the legs atomic airwrap.
left poi goes forwards throught the legs wheel plane and meets up with the right poi which is btb wall plane, they tangle and pop through the legs at an angle, swiching both planes by 90 degrees.

atomics are fun. oh yes.

T wave


This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti

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arashi
arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx
Member Since: 21st Mar 2002
Total posts: 2363
Posted:ubbrollsmile ubbrollsmile

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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Pyrolific
Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Member Since: 10th Jan 2001
Total posts: 3288
Posted:oh man! I finally get what you guys have been on about for the past 5 pages (or something)! thanks for that video Cole. I especially liked the threading the needle weave you did at the end smile Some of the moves seemed very similar eg @ 25 secs you seem to be doing a standard wheel plane outside, and hten at about 29secs you are leaning over and doing the same thing? Is that supposed to be different?

--
Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:hey josh wave

the 0:26-0:29 second bit is me attempting to spin the right poi in the left buzzsaw plane with the pole facing to the right still (i.e. poi on outside of right hand, spinning between left arm and body).
shrug
i don't understand how its possible in wheel plane and as far as i can tell, as soon as you add the other poi into the equation, it becomes equivalent to the right outside plane anyway confused
so the short answer is no, i don't think it is any different - but rev will explain it one day i'm sure... smile

that weave at the end where the hand doing 2 circles remains static may seem like a bit of a random addition but is really handy for learning the weave i do at 0:54-1:00 and also feels like an isolated does on the crossover.

really happy to know the video helped a little somewhere hug2


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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spiralx
spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK
Member Since: 1st May 2002
Total posts: 1376
Posted:Cole - what I was talking about yesterday where you use a buzzsaw weave/notcoleman3 to transition between crossarm inversions does seem to be a fully inside weave. Or at least my initial explorations in the loo here at work seems to show ubblol

"Moo," said the happy cow.

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:Written by: spiralx


buzzsaw weave/notcoleman3 to transition between crossarm inversions





that what i was doing last night umm

i don't get how what you describe there is different to what i showed you...?



it seems to still leave the weave with an outside beat - the first beat exiting the inversion goes outside.



at least that's what everyone who i showed it to seemed to agree shrug



see ya next week and we'll play more smile





cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Rev
Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
Location: Apparently lost in my ego
Member Since: 14th Mar 2003
Total posts: 1269
Posted:ok I''m not sure what you guys are talking about, but I asked arashi about this (inside weaves (as in inside to inside weaves if we are all on about the same thing )).. it seems that the inside weave has an outside carry.. or something... because weaving twists your arms together.. so when it comes time to switch sides in the weave, you cant have arms on both sides at the same time.. and so a little bit of the transition gets lost to outside.. whihc puts the geek in us in a very awkward position.. I mean on the one hand.. it IS inside.. we just dont have the arms there yet to show it.. but on the other hand.. you can't exactly have inside without being inside something.. so what is this pseudo-inside crap that we do during the transition..

now.. you guys are talking about all this using inversions and stuff.. and I think that's a step advanced.. irony I know.. because that's what got me to inside weaves to begin with.. but.. I think the inversions jsut kinda muddle things up.. a right inside plane inversion is the same as a left outside plane inversion.. so if you exit a right inside plane inversion on the left side.. whihc is further complicated by the fact that inversions exit natrually to one side.. (one inversion natrually exits outside and the other naturaly exits inside) BUT you can force them to exit either side..

anyway.. I'm going to halt there.. at least on inside weaves..

cole- the reason I think you are a bit confused about spinning the right poi in the left buzzsaw plane is because you have your arm facing the wrong way... you have to spin it with the palm of your hand facing the right side.. that way you get the arm out of the way.. I'm a bit confused why you are trying to do it in the buzzsaw though... probably something I said...

the second plane you spin in.. the one where your left arm is over it.. but it is facing the left side plane... that is spinning buzzsaw in the side plane (half-inside).. if you flip that plane.. so that you are spinning under your left arm.. but the right poi is facing the right side plane.. you'll see what I was talking about.. that is the inside plane..whihc would be like taking the right outside plane and dragging it over to the left side..

Also this works much easier if you take it from back to front instead of right to left spinning behind you is like spinning in the right outside plane.. and as you drag it forward it eventually passes to in front of you but is still facing the same way.. its just the wallplane helps put your hands in the right position more natrally.. side planes don't really do that natrually, hence your confusion hug..

maybe that helps. maybe it doesnt.. I still think we just need to talk sometime.. al this would get sorted right out.. wink


More useless information courtesy of Rev...
Confusing the masses, one post at a time...
"Obviously, you're not a golfer.."- The Dude
"Buy the ticket... Take the ride..." -Raoul Duke
"FEMA has never done catastrophe planning..."-Michael Brown

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spiralx
spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK
Member Since: 1st May 2002
Total posts: 1376
Posted:Cole you were using a notcoleman5 to enter the crossarm inversion. This just uses a notcoleman3 which is a buzzsaw weave to change leading hand. Or at least I think it does. I'll get back to you ubblol

"Moo," said the happy cow.

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:spiral you are mistaken i'm afraid mate - i was definitely using a combination of notcoleman3 and the crossarm inversion to crossover - a notcoleman5 has more way more beats outside and i haven't even tried combining that with the crossarm inversion thing yet!



the way i found it on sunday was by spinning notcoleman3's and discovering that i could go direct into a barrel roll to crossover - you must have misinterpreted what i was spinning last night...



from what rev says it sound like it is an 'inside weave with an inverted crossover' or something similar (it definitely only has one beat outside though so i'm still not sure what a normal inside weave is now).





Written by: Rev


cole- the reason I think you are a bit confused about spinning the right poi in the left buzzsaw plane is because you have your arm facing the wrong way... you have to spin it with the palm of your hand facing the right side.. that way you get the arm out of the way.. I'm a bit confused why you are trying to do it in the buzzsaw though... probably something I said...







wicked biggrin

with the palm facing the same direction as the pole i can see how you can get your right hand into the left buzzsaw plane with the pole still pointing right smile



Written by: Rev


the second plane you spin in.. the one where your left arm is over it.. but it is facing the left side plane... that is spinning buzzsaw in the side plane (half-inside).. if you flip that plane.. so that you are spinning under your left arm.. but the right poi is facing the right side plane.. you'll see what I was talking about.. that is the inside plane..whihc would be like taking the right outside plane and dragging it over to the left side..





yepyep - that confirms i get where that plane is now.

like i said before, the reason i didn't ghet it is because i don't have any moves that clearly have circles in that plane.



Written by: Rev


maybe that helps. maybe it doesnt.. I still think we just need to talk sometime.. al this would get sorted right out.. wink





indeed - i just need to sort out a time when i'm at a pc that lets me access chatrooms smile





cole. x

EDITED_BY: coleman (1119456470)


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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duballstar
duballstar

slack rating - 9.5
Location: Suburbiton, Yoo-Kay
Member Since: 3rd Sep 2003
Total posts: 2216
Posted:eek ach.. you lot are far too geeky for me... can someone just point me in the direction of cole's vidyo an i'll be on my way... i saw what you were doing last night dude but think i need to see it again (at least a few times) to grasp it properly...
ubbangel

an while we're at it...
a notcoleman 3 is a normal inverted weave but a notcoleman 5 has extra beats on the outside or inside? am i right or completely off target? umm as for crossed arm inversions i'm not sure i even want to know...


It is our fantasies that make us real. Without our fantasies we're just a blank monkey' - Terry Pratchett

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