• All Purchases made this month instantly go into the draw to win a USD $ 200.00 credit to your HoP account.
 

Forums > Advanced Poi Moves > inversions, insides, atomics, oh my!

Login/Join to Participate
Page: 1...1011121314...16
arashi
arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx
Member Since: 21st Mar 2002
Total posts: 2363
Posted:edit; okay glass just smacked me in the head with the obvious notion that inverted means upside down as well as the definition i went by, in which inverted means; reversed, in a contrary direction. so i am considering changing my terminology, but i have edited this to make sense with the stuff in the trinity thread. i'm just warning you that i may change this post when i get the time to give a flying fart. anyway this will make sense for a little while til i can change things to confuse you again wink



first, the crossed arm inverted weaves, which add two beats to a odd number weave...

the counting on this is pretty tricky, since it comes out of a weave that already has beats. in general for beat counts i go by the # of beats on each side of the crossover, since that way you don't have to be symmetrical to have it make sense. but the crossover happens at the entrance into the inversion so i label the inverted weave by which weave position you came into it from. there's so many variations that this may make sense later.

first, try the 3 beat inverted weave, which is



3 beat weave, but the crossover goes between your arms instead of to the other side. your arms, you will notice, are crossed, so you have to do an split time isolation with both hands so the chains don't wrap your arms.



next try it out of the five beat, which makes a 5 beat inverted weave.



insides are like buzzsaws but are not between your arms, they are between your arms and your body. take a buzzsaw in front, and drop your hands to your sides. now the wicks come under your armpits, and the chains are inside your arms. you can take a bfly or a spider and inside them, so if you do a bfly in front, you bend forward and do it inbetween your arms and your tummy. do them in the side plane, too.

now if you take a buzzsaw, do it inside at your side, and the take it around your back, keeping the same buzzsaw plane direction the whole time, you have a BTB inside. now try that, with an inverted weave instead of a buzzsaw. ouch. wear a cup. or "box" if your british tongue



I have edited this title and post and cut out all the "buzzsaw" terms. Hope this makes more sense now!

EDITED_BY: arashi (1107654577)


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.


oli
not with cactus
Location: bristol/ southern eastern devo...
Member Since: 24th Jul 2003
Total posts: 2052
Posted:i have a question

it is here

im not to sure personally, i cant spin a weave like the one on the right in the picture, but i was doing something almost the same yesterday but bits of it came between my arms. confused

and dub a notcoleman 5 has the extra beats on the outside, i reckon


Me train running low on soul coal
They push+pull tactics are driving me loco
They shouldn't do that no no no


spiralx
spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK
Member Since: 1st May 2002
Total posts: 1376
Posted:The one on the right is something arashi mentioned to me a while back but I can't get... it's basically turning the crossover point from in front of you down and then back up inside your arms so it's pointing the other way - the poi swap from left to right closest to you rather than at the furthest point away.

I think that this then gives you antispin for free, much like you get spinning BTB weaves.


"Moo," said the happy cow.


oli
not with cactus
Location: bristol/ southern eastern devo...
Member Since: 24th Jul 2003
Total posts: 2052
Posted:yep thats what it is - but that isnt an inside weave??? the only reason i think it might be, is because i have no idea what an inside weave is other than a weave that gose inside to inside, and if you flatten the planes out so there is a big angle between them - you can see they are like inside planes... or they feel the same...
EDITED_BY: oli (1119879859)


Me train running low on soul coal
They push+pull tactics are driving me loco
They shouldn't do that no no no


spiralx
spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK
Member Since: 1st May 2002
Total posts: 1376
Posted:Not really sure what to call it - upside-down weave? wink I guess you could call it an inside weave though, it certainly stays between the arms.

"Moo," said the happy cow.


Rev
Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
Location: Apparently lost in my ego
Member Since: 14th Mar 2003
Total posts: 1269
Posted:Written by: spiralx


The one on the right is something arashi mentioned to me a while back but I can't get... it's basically turning the crossover point from in front of you down and then back up inside your arms so it's pointing the other way - the poi swap from left to right closest to you rather than at the furthest point away.



I think that this then gives you antispin for free, much like you get spinning BTB weaves.





I'm not sure about all the stuff spiral says here, but I can do an inside weave.. 5bt reverse... and it goes inside to inside... I'm a little confused about yor diagram though.. is it going inside to inside.. or is it happening in the buzzsaw.. (I cant see how to weave in a buzzsaw, since your ahnds have to twist around each other and thus need a plane that is outside the arms (not necessarily outside))

the one I do goes from an inside plane on the right side to an inside plane on the left side and back.. and it involves flipping the weave.. it's like the flip that occurs when you roll the 3bt inversion into the 5bt inversion except it takes place outside the arms..





you can even learn it using an outside weave.. I've mentioned that like 3-4 times on here as well.. but I just tend to confuse people..



but like I was saying.. I think I follow sprials bit about turning the crossover.. so I let that stand as we see the same thing but say it different.. wink but getting the antispin for free, kinda like btb.. what is that supposed to mean? and it doesnt stay between the arms.. (unless oli is talking something different..) it stays under the arms.. ie the inside plane..


More useless information courtesy of Rev...
Confusing the masses, one post at a time...
"Obviously, you're not a golfer.."- The Dude
"Buy the ticket... Take the ride..." -Raoul Duke
"FEMA has never done catastrophe planning..."-Michael Brown


Richee
HOP librarian
Location: Prague
Member Since: 15th Jan 2002
Total posts: 1841
Posted:Oli > The pisc is soooo nice smile, I thing if you cross your arms close to wrist, let them be how they are and try to twist em ,make circle, between your arms you found it. It like you put not just one hand inside, but both in cross- over. Hoe ptat helps smile


it's basically turning the crossover point from in front of you down and then back up inside your arms

Jeah, thas nice description how to learn inversions. Try it without Poi.(It s like you put crossed hand from one side inside,make a twist and out:)

REV >

inside weave has an outside carry.. or something...

Exactly where, isnt it just how you enter, tell us more smile

light,

:R


POI THEO(R)IST


tenticle
tenticle

enthusiast
Location: ati: on: She: ffi: eld: UK:
Member Since: 13th Aug 2002
Total posts: 275
Posted:do a clockwise watermill. turn around and do a clockwise watermill. turn between the inside parts of a watermill clockwise and anticlockwise without going outside except to carry between the two inside planes. the poi always come up between your arms and your body, but during the transitions the poi go down away from your body (when spinning forwards). that's what i call an inside weave, anyway... if you let the poi come up buzzsaw you can do a barrel roll type transition between the two inside planes.

--ben



Rev
Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
Location: Apparently lost in my ego
Member Since: 14th Mar 2003
Total posts: 1269
Posted:the best description I can give.. is to start with outside weaves...

start standing normal.. doing a normal weave...

turn your torso to face left, while you are spinning in the right side plane.. and turn to face right when you are spinning in the left side plane.. this is still a normal weave, but you are always spinning behind you.. it teaches you 1- the hand position and 2- the flip..

remember what I said about the left inside plane being the right outside plane on the left side of the body... well all you have to do is keep pulling the motion above tigheter and tighter until you cross sides.. then you end up with an inside weave.. like tenticle and I have been talking about.. it has a carry between the two sides because you can't have both your hands on the left side (to make an inside plane) and both hands on the right side (to make an inside plane) at the same time.. so there has to ba aperiod of crossover where its spinning in the right spot but your arms arent there to define it..


More useless information courtesy of Rev...
Confusing the masses, one post at a time...
"Obviously, you're not a golfer.."- The Dude
"Buy the ticket... Take the ride..." -Raoul Duke
"FEMA has never done catastrophe planning..."-Michael Brown


tenticle
tenticle

enthusiast
Location: ati: on: She: ffi: eld: UK:
Member Since: 13th Aug 2002
Total posts: 275
Posted:Hot damn, Rev, we're finally talking the same language! I understand and agree with all of that.



Another good way to learn inside transitions, once you know where inside is, is to do a ant- clockwise wall plane three beat behind you, and then pull the poi across to inside in front of you for another two beats, before going to outside in front of you. it gets you used to transitioning to the inside... it isn't a transition as such, the poi are still spinning in the same direction (as far as your hands are concerned) when you come to inside in front, then when you change to the outside beats you do the transtion you'd expect from a reverse five beat (or a reverse four beat watermill really), that is it happens on the reverse side of the body if the going to inside happens on the forwards side. Once you can exit and enter inside plane where a normal weave transition should happen, turning between them ain't so hard... once you get that thing rev said about the inside in front and the outside behind being eqivalent there's a ton of stuff you can already do that works inside too almost straight away...



--ben

EDITED_BY: tenticle (1119911384)



arashi
arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx
Member Since: 21st Mar 2002
Total posts: 2363
Posted:i sort of skimmed some of that and it looked right. here's my answer even though it may be redundant cause i'm going to bed soon and i can't go back and check all that.

the drawing shows the crossovers fine... if the "outside" beats were included in the picture it would make it look like an "M."



yes you can do the inside weave as a watermill w/ crossovers up and that's how i explained it on spherculism as a wall plane inside weave but now we have an ezample of the version in side planes (did i ever transpose those sperc. explanations to this thread?)


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.


oli
not with cactus
Location: bristol/ southern eastern devo...
Member Since: 24th Jul 2003
Total posts: 2052
Posted:Written by: Rev

I'm a little confused about yor diagram though.. is it going inside to inside.. or is it happening in the buzzsaw..



it gose from between your body and your arms, with your right arm crossed over your left, to between your body and your arms with your left crossed over the right, so i think, inside to inside. rolleyes i answer my own question...


Me train running low on soul coal
They push+pull tactics are driving me loco
They shouldn't do that no no no


Rev
Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
Location: Apparently lost in my ego
Member Since: 14th Mar 2003
Total posts: 1269
Posted:wink

More useless information courtesy of Rev...
Confusing the masses, one post at a time...
"Obviously, you're not a golfer.."- The Dude
"Buy the ticket... Take the ride..." -Raoul Duke
"FEMA has never done catastrophe planning..."-Michael Brown


Richee
HOP librarian
Location: Prague
Member Since: 15th Jan 2002
Total posts: 1841
Posted:Tenticle, Rev, Oli - Right, right, got it smile
Right,

inversions Mission OK
insides Mission OK
Atomics Mission OK

perfect smile, I feel this thread going to end with good resolution,
anyway Questions?

For me Construction/Helix (Math Helix picture ) still open,
but is is differenbt story... wink

thank you smile

love nad light,

:R


POI THEO(R)IST


arashi
arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx
Member Since: 21st Mar 2002
Total posts: 2363
Posted:ok i just realized that me saying the drawing was right and the "m" thing will probably be misleading... it's true but not the simplest way to differentiate. there's a better way...

that being said i think i had an "eureka" moment after reading coleman's posts back on page 3 or something and i'll get back with a much better way to explain all this soon

thanks cole for being so smart hug


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.


coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:i didn't mean to be but okay hug2 wink

wallplane iversions and insides are slowly becoming apparent to me.

still can't do those bloody btb trinity ww with insidey-buzzsaw type bits on both sides - i think it might be because i have big armpits... tongue


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood


arashi
arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx
Member Since: 21st Mar 2002
Total posts: 2363
Posted:after my little eureka i think i see that soon they will make a lot more sense to you than they do to me...

once again our different way sof seeing things and how they translate in to language becomes both an obstacle and a way to expand the mind upon understanding.

oops i have to wake up to work in 105 degree heat in 2 hours frown guess i should go to sleep wink i'll get back to this soon

the insides all have an same side/leading thing, inversions have an opp side/leading thing, it's a little more complicated than that but more soon


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.


Rev
Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
Location: Apparently lost in my ego
Member Since: 14th Mar 2003
Total posts: 1269
Posted:Written by: arashi

the insides all have an same side/leading thing, inversions have an opp side/leading thing, it's a little more complicated than that but more soon



insides are even handed.. like corks... so everything covered in that thread that confused people.. applies to them..

inversions work off of the hands relationship to each other... which means you can enter either hand led inversion from anywhere.. all you have to do is wrap your mind around how the setup is.. which is why I stress using corks to understand insides.. once you have your cork inversiosns, every other inversion just falls into place.. there are only 4 main inversions.. each hand has one that leads over into or under into.. and you just have to see any setup during your spin as having one of those qualities.. imo.. but we know my opinion is pretty ubbrollsmile.. ubblol biggrin


More useless information courtesy of Rev...
Confusing the masses, one post at a time...
"Obviously, you're not a golfer.."- The Dude
"Buy the ticket... Take the ride..." -Raoul Duke
"FEMA has never done catastrophe planning..."-Michael Brown


tenticle
tenticle

enthusiast
Location: ati: on: She: ffi: eld: UK:
Member Since: 13th Aug 2002
Total posts: 275
Posted:mwahahaha. the turning watermill inside weave i mentioned earlier is cross handed...

--ben



arashi
arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx
Member Since: 21st Mar 2002
Total posts: 2363
Posted:yeah it's not quite that cut and dry, but there is an aspect of that to it... there's a few subdivisions that act differently... different versions of each entrance for each crossover position. like there's different kinds of inversions, there's different kinds of insides... i'm sure by the end of the thursday b4 uberpoi we'll have it diagrammed and filmed :rollsmiley:

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.


Rev
Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
Location: Apparently lost in my ego
Member Since: 14th Mar 2003
Total posts: 1269
Posted:the inside weave acts just like a corkscrew.. when you do the sideplane insides you can make them odd beat but they are naturally even beat.. because they occur in the midpoint.. so the cross hand isnt cross in that respect.. look at wallplanes done on the side.. like in the right front and the right rear wallplanes.. that is corss handed because the left hand is on its side in the front and crossed in the back... so when you do something in the middle.. (like an inside weave) its evenhanded.. just with a shorter arm from the one that's cross a point that's we're not using(move wise ) and thus not crosshanded.. the flip is like going from a bottom cork to a bottom of a cork.. to boot insides even work just like my evenhanded lead diagram..



remember: you need pretty much both arms to make insides.. even when only one poi is inside... (keep in mind what I refer to as insides doesnt include the half-insides we use to make buzzsaws. ) so sinec both arms are there.. its even handed..


More useless information courtesy of Rev...
Confusing the masses, one post at a time...
"Obviously, you're not a golfer.."- The Dude
"Buy the ticket... Take the ride..." -Raoul Duke
"FEMA has never done catastrophe planning..."-Michael Brown


tenticle
tenticle

enthusiast
Location: ati: on: She: ffi: eld: UK:
Member Since: 13th Aug 2002
Total posts: 275
Posted:no. i really am going to have to demonstrate this to someone before i get understood, i can see, as i can't think of any simpler way to explain it.

--ben



Rev
Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
Location: Apparently lost in my ego
Member Since: 14th Mar 2003
Total posts: 1269
Posted:lol.. shrug we're doing the same thing.. we just arent' seeing the same thing.. I guess the most important thing to start with is how you are getting a crosshanded watermill... because turning between watermills is still just two watermills.. if you could point me i that direction, we might not have to wait..

More useless information courtesy of Rev...
Confusing the masses, one post at a time...
"Obviously, you're not a golfer.."- The Dude
"Buy the ticket... Take the ride..." -Raoul Duke
"FEMA has never done catastrophe planning..."-Michael Brown


tenticle
tenticle

enthusiast
Location: ati: on: She: ffi: eld: UK:
Member Since: 13th Aug 2002
Total posts: 275
Posted:moves that stay clockwise or anti clockwise with respect to the direction perpendicular to your shoulders are even handed. any move where you rotate so that one side of the move is clockwise and the other anticlockwise with respect to this direction is cross handed. thus, windmills, wall plane weaves, watermills in front of you, corks done windmill style are all even handed. turning windmills, wheel plane weaves, wheel plane insides, corks done by leaning one way then the other, are all cross handed.
turning between just the inside beats of a 2bt clockwise watermill and just the inside beats of an anticlockwise 2bt watermill is exactly the same as turning between a outside clockwise 2bt and an outside anti clockwise 2bt and getting an outside 3bt. which is how you get a normal wheel plane 3bt weave.
turning between anti clockwise and clockwise changes which hand is more forward/top/outside (depending on how you look at it) and as such acts like one degree of twist of the arms by changing the lead hand.
when you add two wheel plane 2bts together and get a 3, it is the turn that is swapping the lead. if you have no turn, such as in a wall plane weave, you only have one 2bt to play with and so there are two different ways to make a 3, depending on whether you swap the lead in front of you or behind. and when you add these two ways of doing the 3 together, you get a 4bt. Just like you'd expect from a windmill or watermill.
So i get my 3bt cross handed watermill the same way i get my 3bt cross handed weave.

--Ben



Rev
Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
Location: Apparently lost in my ego
Member Since: 14th Mar 2003
Total posts: 1269
Posted:I see what you mean.. the inside weave is crosshanded.. I wanted to say it was the exception but all my insides were evenhanded.. so I guess insides are.. but the inside weave isnt..
sorry..

shrug


More useless information courtesy of Rev...
Confusing the masses, one post at a time...
"Obviously, you're not a golfer.."- The Dude
"Buy the ticket... Take the ride..." -Raoul Duke
"FEMA has never done catastrophe planning..."-Michael Brown


arashi
arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx
Member Since: 21st Mar 2002
Total posts: 2363
Posted:now tell me that the side plane inside 5 beat spider (aka 2nd degree inside) isn't the funnest move ever

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.


spiralx
spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK
Member Since: 1st May 2002
Total posts: 1376
Posted:They're bloody difficult is what they are! :P

"Moo," said the happy cow.


Rev
Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
Location: Apparently lost in my ego
Member Since: 14th Mar 2003
Total posts: 1269
Posted:bah... the 6bt insides are what I think its funny... makes me laugh when I do it.. I don't know why.. I think its because muscle memory is telling my brain how goofy I look..

to me the 4 and 5bts feel all yummy.. one lets you roll from ones side to the other and the other just kind bouces it there and back.. like a good vodka it mixes with almost anything.. flowers, reels, pirouttes, whatever.. and then add frosty inversion topping and you get patterns that get thes fluid rolling patterns that I can only describe as WOOOSH.. as they roll by..


but mentioning the 6bt and inversions.. 3rd degree inversions are frickin' hard.. any advice you can give on those arashi? because I started by doing what I could and letting the tanlge roll out.. and I'm slowy moving the tanlge further down the string until hopefully it all rolls through kinda isolated, but not tanlged during the end.. do I need to do it like a 3bt inversion, or should I just be trying to keep my arm hooked so it exits with the extra twist at the wrists?


More useless information courtesy of Rev...
Confusing the masses, one post at a time...
"Obviously, you're not a golfer.."- The Dude
"Buy the ticket... Take the ride..." -Raoul Duke
"FEMA has never done catastrophe planning..."-Michael Brown


arashi
arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx
Member Since: 21st Mar 2002
Total posts: 2363
Posted:it's almost like a throw. you have to throw the wick it so it arcs through the inversion while your hands are crooked, then let it arc through, then unroll your arms right after the follwoing wick is thrown

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.


Dragon7
Dragon7

addict
Location: Aotearoa (NZ)
Member Since: 17th Oct 2003
Total posts: 625
Posted:Its like semi-iso. I dont do that anymore tho, i prefer letting them flow through.

Those 5bt's are funny though, they keep getting tangled in interesting positions wink ubblol

And Cole, i didn't know you could play guitar.



bluecat
bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere
Member Since: 15th Dec 2002
Total posts: 5300
Posted:he's even quite good wink

aside: i've thoght about postig in this thread lots, as i'm convinced i'm doing a lot of the stuff you guys are talking about, but don't follow your terminology :aargh:
however, i will have cole and arashi as captives in my house this week, so plan to extract all knowledge and terminology then.

eep! just realised we could have a 'naming moves symposium' at uberpoi!

eek


biggrin
Rob


Holistic Spinner (I hope)


Page: 1...1011121314...16

Similar Topics

Using the keywords [inversion* inside* atomic* oh] we found the following similar topics.
1. Forums > inversions, insides, atomics, oh my! [466 replies]
2. Learn > POI > Inversions > 5 Beat Atomic Inversion *help/resource
3. Learn > POI > Inversions > 90-Degree Off-Set Atomic Inversions *help/resource
4. Learn > Hoop > Mini hoop > moth folds outside inside *help/resource
5. Learn > POI > Advanced Butterflies > atomic 2 beat thingy *help/resource

     Show more..