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Forums > Advanced Poi Moves > inversions, insides, atomics, oh my!

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arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2363
Posted:edit; okay glass just smacked me in the head with the obvious notion that inverted means upside down as well as the definition i went by, in which inverted means; reversed, in a contrary direction. so i am considering changing my terminology, but i have edited this to make sense with the stuff in the trinity thread. i'm just warning you that i may change this post when i get the time to give a flying fart. anyway this will make sense for a little while til i can change things to confuse you again wink



first, the crossed arm inverted weaves, which add two beats to a odd number weave...

the counting on this is pretty tricky, since it comes out of a weave that already has beats. in general for beat counts i go by the # of beats on each side of the crossover, since that way you don't have to be symmetrical to have it make sense. but the crossover happens at the entrance into the inversion so i label the inverted weave by which weave position you came into it from. there's so many variations that this may make sense later.

first, try the 3 beat inverted weave, which is



3 beat weave, but the crossover goes between your arms instead of to the other side. your arms, you will notice, are crossed, so you have to do an split time isolation with both hands so the chains don't wrap your arms.



next try it out of the five beat, which makes a 5 beat inverted weave.



insides are like buzzsaws but are not between your arms, they are between your arms and your body. take a buzzsaw in front, and drop your hands to your sides. now the wicks come under your armpits, and the chains are inside your arms. you can take a bfly or a spider and inside them, so if you do a bfly in front, you bend forward and do it inbetween your arms and your tummy. do them in the side plane, too.

now if you take a buzzsaw, do it inside at your side, and the take it around your back, keeping the same buzzsaw plane direction the whole time, you have a BTB inside. now try that, with an inverted weave instead of a buzzsaw. ouch. wear a cup. or "box" if your british tongue



I have edited this title and post and cut out all the "buzzsaw" terms. Hope this makes more sense now!

EDITED_BY: arashi (1107654577)


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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Dut
SILVER Member since Mar 2002

lurker
Location: Nashville, TN

Total posts: 380
Posted:the word for the day is "inverse kinematics" ... (?)
http://hms.upenn.edu/software/ik/ikan_gm.pdf
br>http://freespace.virgin.net/hugo.elias/models/m_ik.htm
(or the source) http://www.google.com/search?q=inverse+kinematics
br>

that was two words, huh? ubbangel

"crap". you still have to work the poi, hand, and elbow as targetted "joints", but the elbow can be fudged, and the poi can be specified in combinations of planes, I think. that should handle all the math you need, though. =D

umm. and you can use this to model inverse stuff.. lalalala .. (what topic?) lalala.. ubbloco

-- dut


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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
Location: Apparently lost in my ego

Total posts: 1269
Posted:I think I found the hardest inversion that I've learned to date... take the left hand counter clock wall plane btb.. take the right hand counter clock behind the shoulder blades/neck...

be careful not to hurt the shoulder socket of the hand that comes up from the bottom..


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"Obviously, you're not a golfer.."- The Dude
"Buy the ticket... Take the ride..." -Raoul Duke
"FEMA has never done catastrophe planning..."-Michael Brown

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arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2363
Posted:ouch ubbloco

hey i've got some time!

atomics.



just so you know some of these moves are easier if you stick your tongue slightly out like this... tongue



first let's start with the atom itself, {simian, your atomic weave is two atoms woven together so let's start from here first.}for all these basic moves try to keep the atom shape intact and in the same angles.

this isn't the best way to learn atoms, but we need a set of terms first. so the names may appear to jump around and not have any sort of coherency, but just know that the names make more sense as we get on to the atomic weaves.



let's start with a _forward_ inversion/buzzsaw. from here there are 2 inverted atoms. and there's 2 from the reverse buzzsaw too. smile

here's a pic courtesy of the illustr-ious spiralx... even though the arms are too short and the poi too long... who's counting?

mind blowing graphic of inverted atom



1. open the buzzsaw into an atom by taking the right plane and moving the far side of the circle 45 degrees to the left, and the far side of the left circle 45 degrees to the right. keep both hands inverted. we'll work with this one cause this typewriter only has backslashes and so this atom will always be an X from above.

Code:

L---> X <---R



2. open the buzzsaw into an atom by taking the right plane and moving the near side of the circle to the left 45 degrees, and the left plane will move the near side of the left circle to the right 45 degrees.



okay. from here on out let's ONLY work with atom # 1, but all this applies to both, in a reflective way. remember, always go back to that exact atom every time you mess up! it will get confusing...

#1

so now let's try moving it around. first the easy one, move the atom away from you to a full outside.

outside #1

Code:

X

^^

!!

LR





now back to #1

it's really simple to half invert it, with your right hand "outside" and your left hand inverted. you can flip your right hand from inverted to outside and you'll be flipping the atom from inverted to half inverted, see?

half inversion #1

Code:

L-->X<--

R





now let's do more. lets move the right hand around.

there's lots of places you can put your right hand if you can crane/parallel the poi so they don't hit each other... let's assume you can, and do the moves in order, keeping the left hand still and bringing the right hand's postition more and more around in a clockwise direction. now we have zones: with the left hand in a and the right hand in c

Code:

b

a(L)X(R)c

d





let's go back to the full inversion #1



the hardest one-you pull your right hand toward you, into the space created by the triangle closest to you, zone d, but without changing your right hand at all, iow it looks like it stays "inverted" if you just stare at it as you move it. you'll be essentially putting your left arm in to zone b, forearm at a 45 degree angle. this is a crane half inversion and this one's real crooked. you can do your right hand either inverted or outside and they are the same.

Code:

L

!

v

X

^

!

R



but this requires really good "crane control" so you get a cracker if you get it.



move back to inversion #1...

if we continue, keep moving the right hand around to zone a, and you will run into problems. the first option, is to do an outside atom, 5 beat or second degree to be specific. you'll have to be in a 5 beat spider, (so just the arms... they are crooked around each other like the crossover in the middle of a 5 beat weave... left elbow on top, right elbow under, right hand poking up and on top with left hand under) the atom will be fully outside at this point.

Code:

L--> X

r-->



another is to put your right arm in zone a, just next to the close side of the left poi's circle, and the left arm will be crooked 45 degrees in zone b. this is an outside half inversion

Code:

L

!

v

R-->X





keep doing this one... you can keep going around if you can crane, by pushing your right hand so it sits under the left forearm... your atom is outside again, now your hands are doing the three beat spider, or first degree crossover. this is a 3 bt. crane atom.

Code:

L-->X

/

R



if you keep going around, to inside atoms, they are the same as the moves of an atom from a different buzzsaw so let's stop there for now.

EDITED_BY: arashi (1107826805)


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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spiralx


spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK

Total posts: 1376
Posted:Ok so that's a hell of a lot of new stuff arashi, many thanks for taking the time to write it all down! biggrin I'm going to have to spend a fair bit of time when I'm not sat at my desk here at work going through it! I've done some stuff with inverted atoms, but just getting the basic inversion to stay there is harder than doing a bloody inverted weave.

One quick clarification - in your first diagram is your body directly below the X? So the two planes at at 45 degrees to your normal wall/wheel planes?

Once again - thanks!


"Moo," said the happy cow.

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arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2363
Posted:no with the body like this
Code:

X
/ /<--pretend this is a backslash, so it
*body* looks like a real arm and not some cheap
imitation flailing arm


oh even though i b*!ch a lot about circuitous argumentative word misunderstandings you don't have to be so nice... wink not that i'm complaining ubbangel but when you're this nice it makes me feel...

like ROYALTY
wait we take it back, you may now grovel to us...
[holds out his ring]


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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spiralx


spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK

Total posts: 1376
Posted:I'm not kissing your ring you know :P



But you seem to be agreeing and disagreeing with me... here, I've drawn a crappy diagram, is this what you mean?





http://www.homeofpoi.com/gallery/display.php?image=/500/1989atom.GIF




The red lines are the planes of the two poi. And yes, I know the end of the arms should be closer to where the planes cross wink

EDITED_BY: spiralx (1107806783)


"Moo," said the happy cow.

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arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2363
Posted:as the french would say, weewee.
can i put that up there somewhere?


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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spiralx


spiralx

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Location: London, UK

Total posts: 1376
Posted:Go for it biggrin

"Moo," said the happy cow.

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spiralx


spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK

Total posts: 1376
Posted:Ok, initial thoughts smile

Written by: arashi
let's start with a _forward_ inversion/buzzsaw. from here there are 2 inverted atoms. and there's 2 from the reverse buzzsaw too. smile
1. open the buzzsaw into an atom by taking the right plane and moving the far side of the circle 45 degrees to the left, and the far side of the left circle 45 degrees to the right. keep both hands inverted. we'll work with this one cause this typewriter only has backslashes and so this atom will always be an X from above.
Code:
L---> X <---R

2. open the buzzsaw into an atom by taking the right plane and moving the near side of the circle to the left 45 degrees, and the left plane will move the near side of the left circle to the right 45 degrees.


So from #1 the poi are in a plane parallel to the arm holding them, in #2 they're in a plane perpendicular to the arm holding them? Hadn't thought about that difference before, I've done everything in #2 which seems a hell of a lot easier...

Written by:

so now let's try moving it around. first the easy one, move the atom away from you to a full outside.
outside #1
Code:
X
^^
!!
LR


now back to #1


Ok, some clarification needed, doh. In the very first diagram are your forearms pointed towards each other with the centre of the cross in between your hands? And to get the outside you move your arms so they instead point away from your body.... the poi are still spinning in the same place but you've gone from inverted to outside?

Even if that's not what you mean that's something for me to think about already lol wink


"Moo," said the happy cow.

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arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2363
Posted:oh crap! just wait til you try the cranes... i'm eager to see how many can do that first one...
"one bite on this to(ngue) and the baron will be no more"
.
.
"remember the to-(ngue)" tongue

seriously, once you practice #1 atom that outside's an easy transition.

or you could try tackling them all in your natural (2nd) atom. if you did you'd probably figure all this out for yourself, for now i'm just taking an atom and moving my hands around... your first outside would be the 3bt atom, corresponding to the #1 atom's 3bt inside atom which i stopped short of... hey if you do that, would you code it up for us? otherwise start with the ones i posted.


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2363
Posted:if anyone is trying this and has questions now is the best time cause i won't have lots of time (again) really soon...

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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spiralx


spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK

Total posts: 1376
Posted:Just to check are we talking same- or split-time for all of this? smile

"Moo," said the happy cow.

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arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2363
Posted:same. well both really, but the basic crane transitions, split time, in an atom... without threading you'd have to thru wrap, right? i don't have my poi with me...

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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spiralx


spiralx

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Location: London, UK

Total posts: 1376
Posted:Ok that's what I thought smile

"Moo," said the happy cow.

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arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2363
Posted:so, is this indecipherable or what? i see lots of people reading this thread but no responses for almost 2 weeks!! is it too hard or too easy? or did arguing with rev scare everybody off frown ubbangel

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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tenticle


tenticle

enthusiast
Location: ati: on: She: ffi: eld: UK:

Total posts: 275
Posted:broken fingers are stopping me try any of this stuff at the moment... frown

--ben


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arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2363
Posted:OMG that is my worst nightmare.
worse even than this F#*KING MUSCLE i keep pulling in my hip... (limps back to the kitchen)
so sorry!


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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Stout
SILVER Member since May 2004

Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada

Total posts: 1872
Posted:I've been trying to understand this thread for longer than I care to admit, in retrospect, what I should have done is jumped in my car and driven down to Texas. With me it's the learning from reading text, I'll cast my vote with too hard

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arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2363
Posted:you know it's okay to ask questions spank tongue
did the vid of the three beat inversion not help?


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
Location: Apparently lost in my ego

Total posts: 1269
Posted:I'm still trying to find out if I understand.. so I can't ask anyquestions.. because I understand something, pretty sure its this.. who knows.. but I've been to busy with school, and my new poi project that I kinda slacked off..

More useless information courtesy of Rev...
Confusing the masses, one post at a time...
"Obviously, you're not a golfer.."- The Dude
"Buy the ticket... Take the ride..." -Raoul Duke
"FEMA has never done catastrophe planning..."-Michael Brown

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spiralx


spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK

Total posts: 1376
Posted:Written by: tenticle

broken fingers are stopping me try any of this stuff at the moment... frown

--ben


Moo, that's rubbish... hope they get better soon.

As for me I've been kind of busy recently and not having enough time to sit there in front of the computer and go through the various ideas here. Plus my same-time inverted atoms are still pretty poo wink

I did get the "5bt" style inverted atom thing you mention though, although it's even rougher at the moment. But it did remind me of how unable I am to do offset buzzsaws, hmph.

And what video is this arashi? smile


"Moo," said the happy cow.

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arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2363
Posted:eek i could've sworn YOU posted a vid of one somewhere!
*grumbles incoherently about short term memory loss*


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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spiralx


spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK

Total posts: 1376
Posted:Oh yes, that one. I guess it was an inverted atomic weave lol.

Doh! wink


"Moo," said the happy cow.

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spiralx


spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK

Total posts: 1376
Posted:Oh and I did a couple of better diagrams here for your type 1 and 2 atoms - blue is left hand poi, red is right hand poi. Although yes, the poi are still too long lol smile

Type #1
http://www.homeofpoi.com/gallery/display.php?image=/500/1989atom1.gif
br>
Type #2
http://www.homeofpoi.com/gallery/display.php?image=/500/1989atom2.gif


"Moo," said the happy cow.

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Stout
SILVER Member since May 2004

Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada

Total posts: 1872
Posted:Arashi. you mean the video on page 6? it kinda helped although I felt like i was watching a hyperloop tutorial, no laughing please, I'm hoping to link up with PoiBox II in the next few weeks. hopefully he can shed some light on this subject.

I can't seem to get past the buzzsaw weave, which to me feels like more like a short chain three beat weave with a couple of ( to swipe a term from spherculsim ) fakeys in it. The timing just feels strange


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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
Location: Apparently lost in my ego

Total posts: 1269
Posted:Ok.. I must just be missing something.. all my atoms work like butterflies.. and I get all the transitions your talking about without a problem.. and I'm afraid I still don't get the point.. I mean.. yeah I get that its an atom, but I'm trying to figure out how this is anydifferent from a butterfly stuff.. so either A) I'm child prodigy, or b) I'm hopeless.. I'm going with the latter..

More useless information courtesy of Rev...
Confusing the masses, one post at a time...
"Obviously, you're not a golfer.."- The Dude
"Buy the ticket... Take the ride..." -Raoul Duke
"FEMA has never done catastrophe planning..."-Michael Brown

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spiralx


spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK

Total posts: 1376
Posted:That might be because these are all opposite direction atoms... If you start with a same direction normal move it turns into an atom with a "butterfly" characteristic and vice versa it seems to me.

"Moo," said the happy cow.

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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
Location: Apparently lost in my ego

Total posts: 1269
Posted:every way I turn my atom ends up coming out butterfly like.. even when I turn straight from same direction -> atom -> butterfly -> other atom -> back.. it all comes through butterfly.. *shrug*

More useless information courtesy of Rev...
Confusing the masses, one post at a time...
"Obviously, you're not a golfer.."- The Dude
"Buy the ticket... Take the ride..." -Raoul Duke
"FEMA has never done catastrophe planning..."-Michael Brown

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spiralx


spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK

Total posts: 1376
Posted:Left poi front wall plane CW, right poi right wheel plane CW. That's not very butterfly-like smile

"Moo," said the happy cow.

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arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2363
Posted:you know i wish i could watch that video on page 6 sometime. i spaced and thought it was an inverted 3bt, is it just an inverted atom being threaded? or are you transitioning from one kind to another? and isn't there a inverted 3bt video somewhere?

and rev, these ARE like butterflies. but in that context, what isn't? did i say somewhere that there was a point? confused but there's definitely more here than this. i'm under a crunch again though... people do do, things to see...
i'll go with b) too tongue ubbrollsmile ubbangel


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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