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Forums > Advanced Poi Moves > inversions, insides, atomics, oh my!

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arashi


arashi

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Posted:edit; okay glass just smacked me in the head with the obvious notion that inverted means upside down as well as the definition i went by, in which inverted means; reversed, in a contrary direction. so i am considering changing my terminology, but i have edited this to make sense with the stuff in the trinity thread. i'm just warning you that i may change this post when i get the time to give a flying fart. anyway this will make sense for a little while til i can change things to confuse you again wink



first, the crossed arm inverted weaves, which add two beats to a odd number weave...

the counting on this is pretty tricky, since it comes out of a weave that already has beats. in general for beat counts i go by the # of beats on each side of the crossover, since that way you don't have to be symmetrical to have it make sense. but the crossover happens at the entrance into the inversion so i label the inverted weave by which weave position you came into it from. there's so many variations that this may make sense later.

first, try the 3 beat inverted weave, which is



3 beat weave, but the crossover goes between your arms instead of to the other side. your arms, you will notice, are crossed, so you have to do an split time isolation with both hands so the chains don't wrap your arms.



next try it out of the five beat, which makes a 5 beat inverted weave.



insides are like buzzsaws but are not between your arms, they are between your arms and your body. take a buzzsaw in front, and drop your hands to your sides. now the wicks come under your armpits, and the chains are inside your arms. you can take a bfly or a spider and inside them, so if you do a bfly in front, you bend forward and do it inbetween your arms and your tummy. do them in the side plane, too.

now if you take a buzzsaw, do it inside at your side, and the take it around your back, keeping the same buzzsaw plane direction the whole time, you have a BTB inside. now try that, with an inverted weave instead of a buzzsaw. ouch. wear a cup. or "box" if your british tongue



I have edited this title and post and cut out all the "buzzsaw" terms. Hope this makes more sense now!

EDITED_BY: arashi (1107654577)


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Rev
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Rev

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Posted:hey question...

when we talk of same direction threading.. are we talking about threading where the poi are moving same direction but the hands do bf ttn motions.. (which is half normal spin and half antispin) or are we talking about same direction threading which is like just standing there wall planes threading them around each arm same direction poi and thread?



and ben.. the antispin that I've always talked about.. along with nx and what not never inverts... unless you are doing an inverted antispin weave.. I wish I had a cam too..

by spinning in plane 3 you have the option of coming inside as 2b whihc is like 3 and still outward.. or you have the option of facing it 2a... if you do the 5bt version you'll notice that if you turn a poi in, you have to turn it back out to keep twisting.. whihc isnt how you twist a weave... I suggest taking your right poi on the right side of a 5bt weave, and turning it towards you as it comes underthe left arm, and push it turn it back outside as you go back over the left arm.. that's what you are doing antispin if you invert the poi...


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tenticle


tenticle

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Posted:Written by: Rev

by spinning in plane 3 you have the option of coming inside as 2b whihc is like 3 and still outward.. or you have the option of facing it 2a... if you do the 5bt version you'll notice that if you turn a poi in, you have to turn it back out to keep twisting.. whihc isnt how you twist a weave... I suggest taking your right poi on the right side of a 5bt weave, and turning it towards you as it comes underthe left arm, and push it turn it back outside as you go back over the left arm.. that's what you are doing antispin if you invert the poi...



Same side poi or crossed side poi spinning in 3? if it's the crossed poi, any 2 is still facing the same way, if it's the same side, any 2 is facing the other way... how do you make it face 2a?

--ben


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Rev
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Posted:both spinning in 3.. like a weave should be... or both facing 3 I should say...

with normal spin you make it face inside by doing this:
3bt- leading left hand..
right poi- , 2a, 1,1
left poi- 3 , 3, 2b

that's an inverted swing in the weave.. the 5bt version of that has you turning the poi back outside..
5bt- leading left hand
right poi- , 2a, 3,1,1, 3
left poi- 3 , 3, 1, 2b, 1

this is the impression I have of the move you are doing that when you antispin... because you said you keep turning the poi inverted when you antispin..

the poi should always be facing outward, and same side.. antispin or not..


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Rev
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Posted:oh and another question arashi.. what do you call it when you take the left hand over the right hand, and back under the right hand (like a 3 (right) side rev 5bt twist.. ) and the left poi leads over the left arm and into the 2 space...

its like the rev 5bt inversion (cross side arm led inversion) only over the cross side arm rather than under the same side arm..


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tenticle


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Posted:When i spin this move:

3bt- leading left hand..
right poi- , 2a, 1,1
left poi- 3 , 3, 2b

the right poi plane always faces left, and the left poi plane always faces right... same when i antispin. i don't turn the planes inverted, they stay that way through the whole move. Also, the planes don't face inward or outward, they face left or right depending on which plane it's in... left poi in 2 is facing right, right poi is facing left, etc.

and as far as i can see, the 5bt version of that move goes:
left: 3 3 2a 2b 3
right: 2a 2b 1 1 1

which is perfectly possible but the transitions are a bitch and currently need a kind of head isolation/ upward stall type thing to go over properly, and you use the timing of the transition and position of your arms to get the planes to change over correctly... (or else do inverted thruwraps.)

--ben


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Rev
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Posted:how are you doing your anti spin normally?

inward means its facing the inner plane.. and outward means its facing the outer plane.. I avoid left and right because in and out applies regardless of how the planes face.. I guess inside would be more apt given the subject line, but I thought they meant the same thing..

I posted that because I'm trying to find out how you were getting inverted spin in your normal antispin weave..


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tenticle


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Posted:Like i posted above:

Left: 3 3 2b
Right 2a 1 1

Annotate my diagram and show me where each poi faces in or out... i don't get how inwards facing/outwards facing helps, unless you're spinning between outside and inside... (inside being between the arms and the body, and nothing to do with plane 2)

--Ben


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arashi


arashi

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Posted:you guys are on a ROLL here, i can barely keep up. got a busy week ahead too so be good biggrin

rev about crossed etc. terms... umm, well at this point we are all on the same page and that's what's important. as long as nothing is blatantly wrong or a misundertstanding of theory it's all good, in fact if there's ways we find that will make teaching this easier for me then how could i complain?

and ben, "i dont call that one a 3bt inversion because it's only partly inverted, i call it a same direction split time 1st transition weave with inverted buzzsaw... a normal 3bt is a same direction split time 1st transition weave"
there's a little misconception here, as the 3bt inversion IS totally inverted. the name "3bt inversion" doesn't apply to the whole move as a pattern with all the weaving, only the inversion, and the very moment of it only. since the inversion is an infinitum polar point there's lots to do before and after the transition in, but the specific moment of inversion is what the name applies to. as you know once you get to the inversion, you can --transition left or right, or through wrap, or recoil, or isolate outside the pole for an inside move, etc. so really just like with your very specific term about the weave this is a very specific term too. i go by the entrance crossover position. to count weaves that are done while inverted is WAAAAY to vague, when you want to choreograph a lot of inverted weaving to go with music, and not just robotically doing a mirror perfect weave pattern.
and do you see how "same direction split time 1st transition weave with inverted buzzsaw" means the EXACT same thing as 3bt _spider_ inversion? [even though i wouldn't say buzzsaw, there is no buzzsaw] so we're really saying the same thing, but i choose not to look at the whole pattern. i'm not sure what you mean by reels etc. for the crosser thing i thought crosser just meant spinning while on opp. sides so as with 3bt spider above i go by crosser inversion as the moment we go into the inversions.

rev- by your 5 beat question do you mean a 6 bt? if so then i'd call it a 6 beat (spider) inversion.

but how about we all agree to not get bogged down in terms, if you don't like the name at least type what everybody else calls it too. or suffer my wrath biggrin wink


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spiralx


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Posted:At this current point I'm interested in half inversions and how they can be used. Is there a way of keeping them going infinitely like full inversions arashi? Or any other ideas, I've only just started having a think about them smile

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Rev
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Posted:ben-

Left: 3(out) 3(out) 2b(in)

Right 2a(in) 1(out) 1(out)





see the 2a is on the right side so its facing inside like a watermill whihc can lead to an inside beat or an inversion...



and the 2b follows the same thing beinng on the left side...



the 3bt thing I posted a few posts up is what you are doing the antispin version of.. not an antispin verison of a normal weave..



your planes to be antispinning a normal weave must ALWAYS face out.. like this



Left: (3) (2b/3) (1)

Right (3) (1) (2a/1)



it doesnt seem liek much of sa difference until you start doing normal spin what you are doing antispin.. if you do the above pattern.. you get a normal weave that exagerrates the threading motion, but is still just a weave... when you do your pattern above normal spin, you get something differetn then a weave.. you get a weave with an inside spin.. see what I mean about your antispinning with insides not antispinning the weave... give that a spin and I'll explain the antispin inversions..



the reason I say in and out is because 2 is a vague concept.. I explained this in my first post following your diagram when I talked about the 5bt inversion (the cross side arm lead inversion).. all inversions use 2 a and 2b but they use them not necessarily in the place of 2a and 2b on your diagram... the easiest way to keep track of this (for me at least) is to think of it in terms of outward (those that face either towards 3 and 1) or inward (which is 2a on the 3 side and 2b on the 1 side..)



for example.. think about rolling between trhe same side hand lead inversion and the cross side hand inversion... or cross then same.. whichever you prefer..



cross to same goes from left to right like this.. left lead

L- 1 2a 2b 3 2A 3 2b

R- 2B 1 2a 3 2b 2a 1



now that's very misleadingif you don't think of it in terms of which way the planes are facing.. because the ones with caps are really facing inside not the one side or another of the middle of the buzzsaw space... well that might be confusing.. lets just say the buzzsaw space it between the outer and inner planes just like its between the left and right planes.. I guess I can't really explain well at the moment why that's handy.. but for me it helps a lot thinking of 2b on the 1 side as inside and 2a on the 3 side as inside..



arashi-

did you follow any of the stuff I put down about antispin? how to do it? or any of the little patterns I put up there to spin? I feel I wont be able to get you to understand some of the stuff I'm talking about. if we cant' start from that same launching point.. because its tied to a number of the other ideas I presented...



and is that a 6bt? because my poi only do 5... but instead of the cross side poi leading inot the inversion from under the same side arm, it continues half a circle so that it enters over the cross side arm..



I want to go back to the link you sent of all the inverted graphics... I made a couple of those designs yesterday and wanted to get some ideas from the others..





spiral- what do you mean by half inversion?





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tenticle


tenticle

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Posted:Written by: arashi

there's a little misconception here, as the 3bt inversion IS totally inverted. the name "3bt inversion" doesn't apply to the whole move as a pattern with all the weaving, only the inversion, and the very moment of it only. since the inversion is an infinitum polar point there's lots to do before and after the transition in...



OK... I use buzzsaw for any infinite move where both poi come up the buzzsaw zone one after the other. strictly speaking, that move above would be called a same direction split time 1st transition weave with buzzsaw, as the buzzsaw you do from a 1st transition is always the barrel roll type thing... just the buzzsaw part is a 1st transition buzzsaw.
A 1st transition inverted weave is exactly the same basic pattern as a 1st transition weave, except the poi are always inverted, and you can do a 1st transition buzzsaw in there as well if you like...
So if "same direction split time 1st transition weave with inverted buzzsaw" means the EXACT same thing as 3bt _spider_ inversion, what do you call what i call a 1st transition inverted weave..? (with or without the buzzsaw) The point of the terms i use is to make a languge in which each word embodies only one concept, so by writing down a move name is enough for someone who understands the language to be able to visualise and spin the move... also by swapping the words around or changing one or adding extra ones, or extending a series, you get a new pattern that makes sense and is physically possible. In fact, a lot of the variations of stuff i've learned have come from doing exactly this. I wouldn't expect someone to choreograph a routine using my notation, but i would hope they could communicate what they were doing in a way others could understand...

oh yeah, and reels are what i call moves that work like windmills. This is a same time inward butterfly reel. they have the property of not being able to change which poi leads through the move (because you can't turn your shoulders), happen in wall plane, and have one poi on what would be the forward side and one on the reverse, if you were doing same direction reels. Gyrlaroura, however you spell it, was the guy i got the crosser term from, and his website had vids for several different ones, including straight jackets... if you do say, a 1st transition weave, and stop after the leading poi transitions and don't bring over the trailing one, that's not a crosser, in the same way spinning by your sides isn't an inversion... i use a reel as the null point really, around which all moves are based, but only cos i like to spin in wall plane more than wheel. oh no, it's also because turning reels gives you the lead poi change that make wheel plane work...

--ben (rambling slightly)


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Rev
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Posted:well I look like crossers (1rst degree crossovers)and reels (o degree crossovers)as the same thing.. whihc is why crossed crossers (glowsticking term) amount to 2nd degree crossovers..



I agree on the link being a reel..



windmills cant change lead poi?!? what about 3 and 5 bt windmills?!? same as 3 and 5 bt corks and watermills... its just a matter of learning to lead with the right.. and learning to lead with the left.. and then alternating the two.. it took me forever to get both hand led 4bt versions going both directions.. I thought one had to go one way and the other had to lead the other way.. but inversions taught me better..





and how do I post up pics I make in paint.. I want to post some things up..



and did you follow what I was tlaking baout with the antispin?



do you have any ims ben?



oh and on the corsser not being inverted... I think that's because when you invert you get an SJ... but its hard to completely see because you cant twist your arms like you twist the vortex of the inversion.. its REALLY easy to follow it when you 'weave' between the crossers.. I don't know how to really explain this other than the direction you turn and the way in which you spin twists you into crossers and twists you out and back into other crossers.. kinda like taking and doing a 0 degree cross -> 1rst degree cross -> 2nd degree cross -> 1rst degree cross ->0 degree cross -> -1 -> -2 -> -1 -> 0 with like say a butterfly pattern or something.. you can get in and out of the SJ's using the same principals and then it acts like a cross arm -> same side arm inversion.. you basically flip the pole and roll your arms out of it.. given the relatedness between reels, crossers, and giant, I'd say its the closest thing to a giant inversion that you could get..



but alas.. I'm rambling too..

EDITED_BY: Rev (1105475392)


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Rev
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Posted:let me try this diagram.
image link

if it helps cool if not.. I tried.. {couldnt get it to post image]

now.. red is right.. blue is left..

if we start with on the left side with forward spin... when we twist a 3bt weave, it goes:
1->2->2b (mine) we like to spin straight but most of us tend to thread our hands.. kinda like a ttn or bf weave.. ones a little further out than in.. so though both face outward.. one is in 1 and one is 2a on bens diagram

now what you are doing the antispin of ben, by turning inwards, is the antispin version of this:
1->2a->2b(mine)


see in your diagram (and I like it alot) the only confusion comes in that 2 a is nothing more than an extension of 1 for the right poi.. and 2b is only an extension of 3 for the left poi.. as in.. 2a only appears when the left poi is spinning in the 1 facing 3... because a right poi spinning 2a will be just be spinning a 1 essentially..
I mean we can get into complex situations where the right poi can be in 2a facing 3, but I think we are jumping the gun in our discussion.. we need to stay at the basics right now..

but back to the point of all this.. the lead poi for me on every beat count tend to be the poi thats more inside (even though always outward facing) when I do my weave.. same goes for the antispin version.. whihc is the 2nd line.. a and d show the left and right sides of the body while all the others show just one side.. the poi are again spinning forwards so the hand motions you see run backwards against the spin.. the timing is a little off to make the diagram easier to follow..
a- right under tleft leading to the elft side..
b- the right swings under and inside the left..
c- the left comes under the right to the inside and leads to the right
d- it leads to the right
e- the left comes under the right and inside
f- the right goes under the left and will then go to a leading back to the left side..

since they occur same time you can essentially pull either one inside a little, but make sure you always face outward.. but turning inward you slip into what we talked about above where you have a poi doing

a-> 2a -> c-> d

which is a variation on the weave and not an antispin version of the normal weave..

sorry to sidetrack this from the inversions again.. but its about insides so I guess tis still relevant..


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tenticle


tenticle

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Posted:i'll read the rest of this later... but one thing, yeah, i agree about the straightjacket/longarm inversion thing... and giant i think is part of turning reels, crossers also... you can describe them easiest using reels as the start.

--ben


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Rev
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Posted:exactemundo.. that's how I got what I called the 3bt reels and crossers and what not.. by using the shoulder twist of the giant... that's where you really get to have fun rolling/weaving the stuff together..



edit:

nevermind that new picture i was going to add.. it doesnt help explain as much as I thought it would, and it would just be easeir to discuss it as it comes up

EDITED_BY: Rev (1105549956)


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tenticle


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Posted:rev- i gotcha now... i am doing the same move as you, just positioned differently...
Hold your hands straight out in front of you, like you were buzzsawing, then antispin. thats what i'm doing, and inside isn't a direction when you do it like that so i was missing what you were saying. If you then move your hands down to your sides more, so inside is a direction, then yeah, that's how i first learned antispin and yeah, it does always point outwards... you can change between the two without changing either the hand movements or the planes you spin in, only the relative directions of the planes... In my diagram, 2a and 2b are the same place, ie, the buzzsaw zone between the arms, 2a and 2b are only there to highlight the subtle differences... i'm going to stick to left and right facing though, as it's way less confusing when you describe inverted inside moves and swapping what side of the body you do them on...
I really really need a camcorder... i can get from what you're doing to what i'm doing to a trailing poi inverted 3bt to an isolated around the crossed arm back to what you're doing without changing what the poi are doing, just messing with the timing and relative motion of the hands...

and sorry, no IM, i havn't finished writing it yet... should have jabber back at some point though, and an msn gateway to go with it when one of my housemates gets around to setting it up properly. my MSN was i_use_jabber_and_this_is_just_a_front at hotmail.com although it probably has expired by now...

--ben


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tenticle


tenticle

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Posted:oh yeah, and your picture was cool, i wouldn't have worked out what you were on about without it...

--ben


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Rev
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Posted:if you take a buzzsaw and antispin.. move the right hand a little left of center and move the left a litte right of center and you have inverted you antispin.. just like you would invert your normal spin.. I mean, if I stop antispining that motion, it goes straight into my normal spin inversions.. so I'm a bit confused as to why you think the antispin that points outward like normal spin is the same as spinning with one inside.. I understand that the planes are the same, but just as with normal spin, they arent the same.. and the outward version doesnt have any inverted parts to it.. its just twist.. I mean it does invert any different from normal spin.. confused

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tenticle


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Posted:don't anti spin a buzzsaw, anti spin a weave with your hands out in front of you like you would have for a buzzsaw, then change to what you're describing... it's all just a matter of how you get the poi not to tie themselves in knots or crash into your arms.
what do you mean by normal spin inversion? leading poi or trailing? and no poi ever goes inside... inside has nothing to do with normal inversions or antispin, until you start to do inside versions of these moves.

--ben


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Rev
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Posted:ok... what started this tangent was this:

Written by:

While doing a 3bt antispin, the poi move through these planes for each beat, always facing in opposite directions:

Left: 3,3,2b
Right: 2a,1,1




All I was saying was that this move is antispin weave, but its an antispin weave with insides... an antispin weave only faces inverted if you make it.. an antipin should face outwards, if not doing a variation..

why did I bring that up because you said something to the effect that antispin were just inversions or something.. and they aren't.. they aren't anymore inversion than a normal weave is.. basically if you leaves ALL planes facing the way they are normal spin, but just change the spin of the poi, you get the antispin version of a move.. any change in the facing of the planes changes it and its antispin twin..
this means that to do an antispin inversion you will move through the motions with planes faciing the same directions as a normal inversion and through the same progression just spin backwards..

I'm not saying what you were doing was antispin or denying anything about what you were doing and its relatedness to other things... I'm just saying that the thinking antispin is merely a center of spin issue.. and is no more related to one set of plane facings than to any other..


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spiralx


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Posted:Inside is between the arms and body, I can't see any inside stuff in what you're saying.

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Rev
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Posted:yes his left poi faces 2b when it should be 1 that faces the body...



whether he;s in the 2b space or not doesnt change how its facing.. meaning there is no difference between on side 1 facing 2b, or in 2b facing 3... we're talking degree cross overs here.. the same thing that happens at the sides of the weave... its just degree crossovers.. whether it happens in the middle or shoved to each side.. its still the same crossover... so if I pull the left inside the right from 3 to 2b and then back out right to 3.. its no different then me pulling the left to 2a facing 2b.. no matter where I put it. its always inside... because its between my arm and body regardless of how I fit it.. either between the right arm and body or between the elft arm and body... which applies the same even in the vgue body area given the faces of the planes.. since the body would be a point exactly on 2 but infinitely small... if I understand math references correctly..



inside- between an arm and body... or between both arms and body

outside- outside both arms only, whihc means further in the direction its facing than both arms..

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tenticle


tenticle

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Posted:There are no insides in this move! none! never! A watermill uses the inside plane, that is, if you are facing wallplane, there is a space between your arms and your body and you can do a windmill type move that uses this plane and the outside plane.
Once again, 2a and 2b are not planes in their own right, they are a convinience for showing the difference between the moves i was describing, they are both the same plane and it is always between the arms, never between one arm and the body.
My left poi travels through 2 instead of one, and as such faces right while my right poi is in 1 and facing left. In a normal 3bt, plane 2 is not used at all, you might thread your hands a bit instead of making the poi spin in exactly the same plane, but you never use 2.
If i was doing an inverted inside, then you could say that my left poi always faces inside and my right outside when i do it on the left side of my body, and right inside left outside on the right side of my body (assuming i face my body wheel plane style and use shoulder twist to make the inside plane appear), but whichever side of my body i do it on, the left always faces right, and the right always faces left. which is why i use left and right for plane facings, not inside and outside.
I'm not saying antispin and inversions are the same thing, they are different ways of getting the poi to travel through the same planes at the same times in the same order, in the same way a 3bt offset to a 7bt makes the poi travel exactly the same path through the same planes as a 3bt normal does... they are different hand positions used to get the same effect.

--ben


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spiralx


spiralx

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Location: London, UK

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Posted:You're describing I think a buzzsaw weave, or a 3bt inverted weave and yes as I said, there's no inside smile Glad someone else agrees with me ubblol

I don't agree that antispin and inversions are the same thing at all either, they're orthogonal concepts. Antispin seems to me to be the opposite of isolating, they both involve having the centre of rotation moving in a circle independantly of the circle the poi spins - for an isolation both circles are in the same direction, for antispin they're in opposing directions.


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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

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Location: Apparently lost in my ego, USA

Total posts: 1269
Posted:Written by: tenticle


they are different ways of getting the poi to travel through the same planes at the same times in the same order,





that's what I don't agree with.. antispin is EXACTLY the same as normal spin... any plane you spin in NORMALLY is the same plane you spin in ANTI...

same path, same plane, same order, DIFFERENT SPIN





and spiral the difference between isolations and antispin is the fact that isolations work with center of spin middle of string and center of spin the shoulder.. I mean we don't think of flowers as being isolations do we.. just because they are center of spin shoulder and center of spin wrist moving same direction.... so why would you conisder center of spin wrist and center of spin shoulder (whihc is what antispin does) to be related to an isolation.. the antispin equivalent to an isolation is a center of spin midstring moving forward and center of spin shoulder moving backwards...





(I would just ike to add that the reason I havent brought wrist into this is because the motion of the wrist is indirect.. it is part of the center of spin midstring.. think of an isolated buzzsaw.. its a nonmoving circle.. whihc means it has one center of spin.. mid string.. rather than wrist.. however moves involve two centers of spin shoulder and wrist normally, shoulder and midstring isolated.. whether the shoulder and the 'other' center move same direction or opposite direction dtermines a move being "antispin")



come on people... this is a simple concept.. why are you making it so hard?

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tenticle


tenticle

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Posted:Ok... spin a normal 3bt weave. the center of rotation is where the poi join your hands.
Spin a isolated 3bt. the center of rotation is moved out onto the string of the poi, with your hand and the poi head orbiting the center of rotation.
Spin an antispin 3bt the way rev describes it. the center of rotation is out on the poi string, with your hand and the poi head orbiting it, but it makes your hands move around each other in reverse 3bt motions.
Spin an antispin the way i describe it. the center of rotation is where the poi join your hands, and you move your hands around each other in the motions of a reverse 3bt.
The center of rotation is the (effectively) stationary point around which the poi head and your hand orbits. How do you make two of them?

--ben


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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

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Posted:read above.. the center of spin of moves, (not circles) is shoulder and something.. unless you are doing longarm, whihc is why longarm is limited to for the most part circles..



when you weave you move the amrs around each other.. whihc moves your center of spin of the poi..



1- center of spin poi the wrists..

2- center of spin shoudlers whihc twist the 1's around each other..

thus a weave..





one center of spin is a cricle.. that's it.. you need a 2nd just to move..

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spiralx


spiralx

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Posted:Written by: Rev
and spiral the difference between isolations and antispin is the fact that isolations work with center of spin middle of string and center of spin the shoulder.. I mean we don't think of flowers as being isolations do we.. just because they are center of spin shoulder and center of spin wrist moving same direction.... so why would you conisder center of spin wrist and center of spin shoulder (whihc is what antispin does) to be related to an isolation.. the antispin equivalent to an isolation is a center of spin midstring moving forward and center of spin shoulder moving backwards...


(I would just ike to add that the reason I havent brought wrist into this is because the motion of the wrist is indirect.. it is part of the center of spin midstring.. think of an isolated buzzsaw.. its a nonmoving circle.. whihc means it has one center of spin.. mid string.. rather than wrist.. however moves involve two centers of spin shoulder and wrist normally, shoulder and midstring isolated.. whether the shoulder and the 'other' center move same direction or opposite direction dtermines a move being "antispin")

come on people... this is a simple concept.. why are you making it so hard?


Perhaps there's two different types of antispin...

1) where the path of the centre of rotation remains unchanged, but the directions of the poi are reversed i.e. antispin weave

2) where the path of the centre of rotation is isolated, but in the opposite direction to the direction of the poi. You could call this a "reverse isolation" or "anti-isolation" wink

Both of these are in a sense "anti-spin". A flower could be considered as a giant isolation if you think about it - the poi are parallel through the move. So an antispin flower can indeed be considered as in 2) above.

And I'm not trying to make things difficult :P I'm trying to understand the concepts behind all of this.

*goes off to practise antispin buzzsaws*


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tenticle


tenticle

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Posted:rev, i need to see a vid of you antispinning. the reason this is getting hard is either because you don't understand my definitions and then attempt to use them wrongly, or because i'm not doing what you are calling antispin.
I can antispin without moving my shoulders, and with no isolation, keeping the center of rotation of both poi in effectivly the same place. I can 3bt weave a staff in the same way i 3bt weave my poi. i can antispin a staff the same way i antispin my poi, although it's harder and i have to hold it between finger and thumb in each hand and force the planes a little.
I'll say it again, the poi follow the same path, through the same planes in the same order, my hands and arms move differently.

oh, and flowers are reels too.

--ben


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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

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Posted:I understand the anti-isoaltion.. but it doesnt work... because you need the poi to be able to bend at mid string so that it butterflies around mid chain as the hand and the poi make the butterfly path...

an antispin weave is VERY closely related to an isolated weave.. imo..

but again the reason that I keep them seperated is because you can spin antispin stuff -with- isolated poi circles... in much the same way as you can spin normal stuff with isoalted circles, ala the isolated weave that its related to...


I'm not saying the patterns arent similar.. I'm saying isioaltion already refers to a poi specifci point.. 0isolation wrist center/ poi spin <-> full isolation poi center and hand moving around.

shouldnt we try and keep isolation poi specific.. ie isolated weave (a weave with poi spinning with a center of spin midchain) and antispin isoalted weave ( an antispin weave done with the poi spinning with a center spin midchain..)

the longarm version is somewhat different.. but has both a same and opposite direction version...

Code:

___left poi right poi__
/__left arm {body} right arm_\

and then turning that in a cricle so that the poi stayed perfectly parallel with the arms.. both forward and antispin versions..

I mean cant we just leave it at two different centers of spin, do we have to talk about all the other unnecessary stuff.. isolations are center of spin issues, antispin is a center of spin issue, tanlges, and longarm are center of spin issues.. they are the same classification like a family... nothing more..


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