Forums > Advanced Poi Moves > inversions, insides, atomics, oh my!

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arashi
arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx
Member Since: 21st Mar 2002
Total posts: 2363
Posted:edit; okay glass just smacked me in the head with the obvious notion that inverted means upside down as well as the definition i went by, in which inverted means; reversed, in a contrary direction. so i am considering changing my terminology, but i have edited this to make sense with the stuff in the trinity thread. i'm just warning you that i may change this post when i get the time to give a flying fart. anyway this will make sense for a little while til i can change things to confuse you again wink



first, the crossed arm inverted weaves, which add two beats to a odd number weave...

the counting on this is pretty tricky, since it comes out of a weave that already has beats. in general for beat counts i go by the # of beats on each side of the crossover, since that way you don't have to be symmetrical to have it make sense. but the crossover happens at the entrance into the inversion so i label the inverted weave by which weave position you came into it from. there's so many variations that this may make sense later.

first, try the 3 beat inverted weave, which is



3 beat weave, but the crossover goes between your arms instead of to the other side. your arms, you will notice, are crossed, so you have to do an split time isolation with both hands so the chains don't wrap your arms.



next try it out of the five beat, which makes a 5 beat inverted weave.



insides are like buzzsaws but are not between your arms, they are between your arms and your body. take a buzzsaw in front, and drop your hands to your sides. now the wicks come under your armpits, and the chains are inside your arms. you can take a bfly or a spider and inside them, so if you do a bfly in front, you bend forward and do it inbetween your arms and your tummy. do them in the side plane, too.

now if you take a buzzsaw, do it inside at your side, and the take it around your back, keeping the same buzzsaw plane direction the whole time, you have a BTB inside. now try that, with an inverted weave instead of a buzzsaw. ouch. wear a cup. or "box" if your british tongue



I have edited this title and post and cut out all the "buzzsaw" terms. Hope this makes more sense now!

EDITED_BY: arashi (1107654577)


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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PK_
PK_

Lambretta Fanatic

Member Since: 20th Dec 2001
Total posts: 4991
Posted:i like the isolated versions

PK.

"To be an angel, one need not have wings.
In giving love there is an equal grace.
Nor need one seek the aura in the face,
As love unveils the beauty of all things."

*Francois Couperin.

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arashi
arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx
Member Since: 21st Mar 2002
Total posts: 2363
Posted:yeah those look REALLY cool if you open the planes up, so there are four planes and not three. the smaller crossed planes being near your elbows.

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:absolutely wicked.

not sure i get the 7bt version yet though...
is it two extra beats 'inside' to sort out the wrist wrapping or are you avoiding wrist wrappage some way through that shoulder twisty method that i can't do?

again though, wicked post dude.



"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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arashi
arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx
Member Since: 21st Mar 2002
Total posts: 2363
Posted:yeah, the last two beats after the five are between your arms, (doing the "no elbow 7" technique will make it a 9 with a buzzsaw weave for the last two.) to do the "buzz 7" you have to be able to isolate pretty well, with your hands all crooked, and you flip your hands around together since they're all tied up... it's tough to get them clean, one wick wants to catch up.

this is it's own thread because...
there are lots and lots of variations in here, it's a whole family. notice the similarities to the buzzsaw weaves and maxi plus? (what the heck is the real name for maxi? cause i've realised that it isn't hyperloop, hyperloop just means airwrap. so... anyways, these will take the maxi plus out of the realm of the mere 3 beat maxi plus and into the next, even more confusing but not much harder, world of multi beat maxis. they are tough, and largely unusable for performance, but great fun.

don't overlook inversions, they are a whole family too. vertical waistwrap inversion fountains anyone?

so do i get to coin the name for all the stuff i've shown you guys or what? everybody gets to name stuff except me!


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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Posted:You can also do these buzzsaw weave interupts BTB, they look cool I reckon. Katinca showed me that.

Josh


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arashi
arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx
Member Since: 21st Mar 2002
Total posts: 2363
Posted:sorry what do you mean by "interups" do you mean interupts, like a stall with them BTB?
if so, yeah that would be cool with like a kick to get them going back between your arms in the front. like you don't already look like a pretxel, huh? so what do you call these, then?


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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arashi
arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx
Member Since: 21st Mar 2002
Total posts: 2363
Posted:and darnit i hope whatever you call them isn't
"hop official" yet, i wanna name something too!


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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MrConfused
MrConfused

addict
Location: I wish I knew
Member Since: 12th Jan 2002
Total posts: 529
Posted:These things are fun! Bloody difficult to teach, though. I think the trick to them (buzzsaw weaves) is to roll your hands over one another after the first poi has gone between the arms.
A nice inversion is from btb weave in the wall plane. When the poi are in front of the body, instead of bringing them straight behind you again, bring them between the arms and body.

J


If you're not confused, you're not thinking about things hard enough.

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Posted:Buzz saw interupt is what you described. Basically do a BTB weave, dropping a beat of buzzsaw next to your hip and under your armpit before crossing to the other side.

No official names from me mate, I'm nowhere near bleeding edge enough for that

Josh


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Taniwha
member
Location: Aotearoa
Member Since: 8th Apr 2003
Total posts: 138
Posted:Wow, thanks alot Arashi. I think it will take awhile 4 me to learn all these new variations btb and stuff. Wicked concepts though, i dig it. Please keep the ideas coming.

Its all just smoke and mirrors

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arashi
arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx
Member Since: 21st Mar 2002
Total posts: 2363
Posted:

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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DJ Dantana
veteran
Location: Stillwater, Ok. USA
Member Since: 15th Aug 2001
Total posts: 1495
Posted:ok, I think I finaly have it visualized, now to try it with poi. you are using realy short poi right?

we eat and we drink and we smoke and we try!

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arashi
arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx
Member Since: 21st Mar 2002
Total posts: 2363
Posted:with my arms stretched as far out as possible they come to juuuuust under my armpits, they hit my face if i bend my arms just a hair. that's where i usually keep them for moves like this.

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:here is a bump.
and a dusting off.
and a spank (cos it's one arashi's threads and they seem to like it).

a variation i've been doing (actually since the weekend before this was originally posted) has now become dubbed the notcoleman5.

however, it was only this weekend that i actually bothered to learn the learnt the 3bt inverted weave and then the 5bt as described here.
until i did this, i had no real way of describing the move in relation to the ones listed here.

i can now confidently say that a notcoleman5 is a 3bt inverted weave with two extra ouside beats smile

discussed elsewhere on the board since i thought i would link to it here:
link 1
link 2


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Rev
Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
Location: Apparently lost in my ego
Member Since: 14th Mar 2003
Total posts: 1269
Posted:wow.. there it is.. what I've been doing.. but this is way back when I could barely do the 5bt and was learning the 5bt btb... omg... I love hop.. everythings here its just hard to find...



ok.. so check this out.. that's what I'm doing in a nutshell...



reading over the underarm thing has just inspired me to even more craziness.. I'm gonna go play now and see what I can find..



I now beleive we need to found Poi-ville... and move a bunch of us there... and see what we cna then come up with..



edit: oh and by the way... I feel like such a poon not remembering this thread..makes me wonder hwo many other things I overlooked when I sucked more at poi then Ido right now..

EDITED_BY: Rev (1075773094)


More useless information courtesy of Rev...
Confusing the masses, one post at a time...
"Obviously, you're not a golfer.."- The Dude
"Buy the ticket... Take the ride..." -Raoul Duke
"FEMA has never done catastrophe planning..."-Michael Brown

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:well, i've just been through all the threads on buzzsaw/inverted weaves and i think i can see where the confusion has arisen.



it may be mostly my fault redface



arashi defines these moves by the type of crossover used - what i've been referring to as a 'barrel roll'.



when this was posted, i had just found a 5 bt weave with 1 beat inverted - the thing that was new to me was that this inverted beat goes around the crossed over arm.



i showed it to a few people and it was described by rob over here (never did find out why he called it a notcoleman5 rolleyes wink).



after a while i later realised this is not what arashi was describing at all as it doesn't have the barrel roll thing in it.



so i simplified it so that it only had 3bts in total.



a 3bt weave where each arm spins 'over, under through' - very much like a 3bt weave, but with no circles by the right arm on the right hand side and vice versa.



this seemed more fundamental to me than the weaves with the full barrel roll and the fact that buzzsaw weaves are defined by the fact that they have that crossover (and this move doesn't), it made it very confusing to count.



now arashi has pointed out that the barrel roll can have infinite beats i can see why he doesn't want to count them but this move only has half a barrel roll (and not even that because the buzzsaw beat is not a transfer from one side to another) i have no idea how to define the move i describe above.



i don't know if you can call it a 2bt buzzsaw weave because it has no barrel roll but there are 2 beats outside and there are 3bts in it in total...



any ideas on how to define this move anyone? confused


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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bluecat
bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere
Member Since: 15th Dec 2002
Total posts: 5300
Posted:i'll rename it for ya if you want cloenam.

can i stop you using 'barrel roll' as a term? cause its a body movement term, for a spinning jump; very commonly used.

ta.

hugs
R


Holistic Spinner (I hope)

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:ubblol no changes required dude - was just wondering wink



fair enough comment on 'barrel roll' though.

i can't do barrel rolls with my body unless you give me a single engine plane and lots of altitude, but thats a different thing again...



so, any suggestions on how we can say 'crossed arm isolation' more easily?



hmm, now i've typed it, it seems simple enough as it is smile


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Mr_Jedly
Mr_Jedly

member
Location: Perth, West Australia
Member Since: 29th Jan 2004
Total posts: 195
Posted:w00t! thanks for that description above I can now do the notcoleman5.
For the 'barrel roll' I think crossed arm buzzsaw isolation would be better wink but it's not 'simpler'.

Oooh! what about the speed bags used in boxing? They can produce the same motion...


We don't stop playing because we grow old,
We grow old because we stop playing.

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:bump for my question 4 posts up...

just in case someone wants to talk about poi. wink


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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spiralx
spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK
Member Since: 1st May 2002
Total posts: 1376
Posted:Well as arashi said elsewhere the notecoleman5 is an uncrossed 5bt inverted weave as the inverted bit your hands aren't crossed... the crossed 5bt inverted weave is where you enter the inverted bit after twisting.

Think I finally worked out how your bloody notcoleman5 works last night finally! ubblol


"Moo," said the happy cow.

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:but that means sometimes you count the inverted beats and other times you don't...



the notcoleman5 only has 5bt in total, including the inverted beat [which incidentally is a crossed arm inverted beat - the right arm when inverted spins around the crossed over left arm and vice versa].



as described by arashi above, the 5bt buzzsaw weave has 5bt not including the inverted beats and 7bt if you include them.



the notcoleman5 is a variation of the 3bt move i describe above (which may or may not be a 2bt buzzsaw weave).



question is, is there an way of counting which lets us describe crossed over inverted beats or are crossed arm inverted beats just a variation that can be put anywhere in which case, is there any point discussing them further?



personally, i feel there is something we're missing here... confused



maybe i need to learn 3 versions of a 3bt weave with each one inverting a different beat - or would it be 6 versions...?!!??





[edited for maths correction smile]

EDITED_BY: coleman (1087471983)


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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spiralx
spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK
Member Since: 1st May 2002
Total posts: 1376
Posted:So that would be

over-under-inside (the standard 3bt)
same-inside-under
same-over-inside

Hmm...


"Moo," said the happy cow.

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:yep.



and that assumes the pattern is symmetrical.



there are 3 more if you consider that you can take those descriptions and apply them independently to each arm.


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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spiralx
spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK
Member Since: 1st May 2002
Total posts: 1376
Posted:That depends on whether it's possible to do them independantly... let's see

L: same-over-under
R: over-under-same

Standard 3bt? I think so smile

L: same-inside-under
R: over-under-inside

Is that even possible? That bit seems doable, but going from the third bit back to the start seems like it might be a problem. Or not. I have no idea smile


"Moo," said the happy cow.

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:good, cos nor do i at the moment smile

you know, i might do some poi this evening eek

or i might just juggle again (soooo close to my 5b target best now!)...

now i've got you in here mr x, i think i'll bring up the subject of butterfly weaves using cross arm inversions which you suggested to me some time ago.

obviously you can't do double cross arm isolations (i.e. two cross arm inversions at the same time, or the 'notbarrelroll' wink) due to tanglingness happening.

but you can fit in the odd one here and there like the 3bt weave variations talked about above.

however, its even harder to work out which beats fit inside and which ones don't with bf weaves...

anyone else played with these?


[where's arashi when we're posting gems like these all over his threads wink ]


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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arashi
arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx
Member Since: 21st Mar 2002
Total posts: 2363
Posted:grrr you guys are trying to suck me back in with g(r)eek talk

i liked the name notcoleman5 ubblol i was going with it just didn't post cause i was busy (frick i still am)

actually i think the confusion started with me hurriedly writing the post and over translating into hop language when i really shouldn't have, the "buzzsaw" is a loaded word, inverted weaves leaves the meaning more open

well if i uderstand what you mean, and we may actually be getting closer to understanding, seems like you are doing parts of 2 beat inversions at different points within a 5 beat, since the 5 is, really, different 2's and 4's put together, you can do the 2 beat inversions at different times within the 5 beat (and within the three beat also, of course, at the even times). and crossed arm inversions happen after the 3 and 5s.
with the even # inversions the inversions are "buzzsaws", but you don't have to do the buzzsaw with both wicks you can go back to the other weave by adding the 5 beat spider (5 beat hand motion)(which is of course the same really as one side of the 4 beat but never mind that) at the end. if i read you correctly, as you can see there's just too much... can't we just call them all notecoleman5's? ubbloco

this even beat or notcoleman area goes with i guess you call them offset weaves? where we are offsetting inversions, offsetting parts of 2 beat inversions for instance
and anybody who doesn't understand the concept that a complete "4 beat weave" is actually two things put together... the 5 beat and the 3 beat... will just explode when they try to understand all the variations. the 5 beat and the 4 beat involve the same hand motion but act differently depending on the spider pattern you are in. i understand them and i get confused trying to explain it all

man it's getting light outside time for bed :insert vampire graemlin: darn you for sucking me back in


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:ah there you are!



thought you would be in bed - damn hippies and their nocturnal habits... wink



sleep well man hug


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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arashi
arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx
Member Since: 21st Mar 2002
Total posts: 2363
Posted:now i can't sleep until i know if i get what you are saying

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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spiralx
spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK
Member Since: 1st May 2002
Total posts: 1376
Posted:Written by: coleman
good, cos nor do i at the moment smile

you know, i might do some poi this evening eek


*falls over gasping for breath after having a heart attack*

Written by: coleman
or i might just juggle again (soooo close to my 5b target best now!)...


See my sig wink

Written by: coleman
now i've got you in here mr x, i think i'll bring up the subject of butterfly weaves using cross arm inversions which you suggested to me some time ago.

obviously you can't do double cross arm isolations (i.e. two cross arm inversions at the same time, or the 'notbarrelroll' wink) due to tanglingness happening.

but you can fit in the odd one here and there like the 3bt weave variations talked about above.

however, its even harder to work out which beats fit inside and which ones don't with bf weaves...

anyone else played with these?


They're still on my list of "things to do" to be honest. However now that I've been playing a lot more with the inverted stuff I may give them a go. I'm pretty sure most of the uncrossed stuff will be doable, but timing is going to be a bitch... confused


"Moo," said the happy cow.

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