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CAINED-AND-UNABLE


member
Location: Manchester

Total posts: 214
Posted:Sorry for posting ANOTHER new topic. just not visiting the web much (recently homeless
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) so i want to catch up with all the gossip. anyway here my thread.i heard a wicked little speach the other day so here it is. it came from a guy who was explaining his theory on life. "given that the universe is infinately large. it stands to reason that there must be an infinate number of worlds/ planets.Given that there must be an infinately large number of populated worlds.then it only stand to reason that somewhere in this infinately large universe, somewhere life that is "human" will have evolved."<large middle part of speak omitted for boredoms sake
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> "which meens that it is wholly viable to suggest that because the number of planets in the universe is infinate, ANY number of possible timelines will have been lived out.for every desision we make, an alternate time-line will have been lived out, following the choices you didn't make."so this guys philosophy was live life for the moment. The infinately huge numbers of you can act out the role where you became a lawyer, or a bank manager. You can live, and well....... you fill the gap. Do whatever make you happy for the moment. Spin fire, just sit, listen to music, travel etc etc etc. ENJOY


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adamrice


adamrice

poo-bah
Location: Austin TX USA

Total posts: 1015
Posted:Sorry to be a wet blanket, but technically the universe is finite but unbounded. The universe does not comprise an infinite number of anything (except, perhaps, lost socks)--there is an estimate on the total number of atoms in the universe.

Laugh while you can, monkey-boy

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Bassman


member
Location: Austin, TX, USA

Total posts: 95
Posted:Cained -- Yeah, Adam is right. The universe is not infinitely large. One could, however, make a similiar arguement via parallel universe theory by assuming that there are an infinite number of parallel universes. This means that each universe has it's own unique timeline. Although, I don't really see how this philosophy guy comes to the conclusion that you should live for the moment. I mean, living for the moment is fine, but what does that have to do with alternate timelines? Is he saying, don't worry about messing up because you're sure to get it right in some other timeline? That's crap! Why would I care about some other timeline that doesn't affect me?

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Knagi


member
Location: Brunswick, Ohio

Total posts: 397
Posted:If the universe is finite, What happens at the point that it ends? Are you suggesting that the universe wraps, such as traveling in one direction forever will end you where you started?And as for the parralle universe :P I know someone who is studying the Pan-culturel medium. It's basicly the sum of exp that someone recives over a set lengh of time. Sensed or unsensed. Such as say walking into a bar do you really think of what holds the stools up? it also travers's time so anything that didn't or could have happened is also included in it. We use a 10ish of our brains what if that other 90 percent is storing and sorting what the best parts of the pan-culturel medium are to send to us. I'm just scratching the serface of what this guy had given me it was a 3 page explaintion of it. had www.pressthebutton.com written on it.------------------We are all in the cosmic movie. That means the day you die you watch your whole life repeating for eternity. So you'd better have some good things happen in there and have a fitting climax. --Jim MorrisonMost Memerable crowd saying "Hey look that dude's gonna set himself on fire again!"

We are all in the cosmic movie. That means the day you die you watch your whole life repeating for eternity. So you'd better have some good things happen in there and have a fitting climax. --Jim MorrisonIt's going to come from a direction you didn't predict at a moment of chaos which you didn't see coming. -- NYC

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Charles
BRONZE Member since Jun 2001

Charles

Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland

Total posts: 3989
Posted:This quite an old view of the "infinite universe" = "infinite possibilities" theory. It was first presented to the masses via the greatly under-rated movie "Howard the Duck". However, I feel the arguement presented here as to why you should live for the moment is a little flawed. Should you choose to starve to death because another "you" somewhere else isn't going to, should you make a bomb and kill hundreds of children in a school because somewhere out there you are a nice guy who cares about everyone.It doesnt matter how many others of "you" there are, you are still responsible for every action you take, and not responsible for any action they take.Live for the moment if that's what you want out of "this" life, if not, be more careful.Whegh!, that was a bit deep...but i mean every word.

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Bassman


member
Location: Austin, TX, USA

Total posts: 95
Posted:Knagi -- At the end of the known universe there is nothingness.

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Posted:I think it's better to see this one first, just before start thinking what is finite & infinite...http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/primer/java/scienceopticsu/powersof10/index--------------------------------------------- I don't see the enemy, the enemy doesn't see me - Takuan

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Marlboro


member
Location: St.Annes, Lancashire, England

Total posts: 180
Posted:'LIVE IN THE MOMENT'I definitely believe in this, but in full knowledge that you are right here (or there) right now, and we are responsible for our actions.Everything has balance, and must level out (Yin/Yang - Shiva/Shakti etc, etc). We must all follow our own beliefs, live in the moment, but with full awareness.(Man, this kinda thread can make you sound like a major religious nut! I'm not honestly, or am I?) :-)~~MMy advise, neck a Hoffman and see what that does to your beliefs. (Kids, don't try that at home, go out and have fun when you do it.):-)~~

We were somewhere around Barstow on the edge of the desert when the drugs began to take hold.

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pyro_teknik


member
Location: england wiltshire under stoneh...

Total posts: 51
Posted:I really enjoy listening to peoples theories and philosophies on the universe. I could talk for hours on the subject but my dinner is ready so I may pop back later on
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handlebar moustaches are funny :)

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plastikgirl


member
Location: Curitiba, PR, Brazil

Total posts: 41
Posted:Well, I...I think I'm not supposed to think or talk about that, because maybe this kind of thing its what made me become quite insane.I give a lot of thought to that. Remember the final scene from MIB, where they show our galaxy as a tiny marble in the hand of a green creature?? Well, THAT was weird. It tied my brain up in a huge KNOT!!!!!If at the end of the universe there's nothingness...what IS nothing? I don't believe in nothing. There must be something there.Well, anyway, if the universe is infinite or not, I don't know. I only know we'll never see man reach its end
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'cause we will be dead by that time. Brrr.ENOUGH!!! If I start talking about that, it will be the biggest post EVER!!!p.l.u.r.!------------------"Lady bug lady bug, fly away home. Your house is on fire, and your children will burn! Ashes, ashes, all fall down!![This message has been edited by plastikgirl (edited 14 August 2001).]


Lady bug lady bug, fly away home. Your house is on fire, and your children will burn! Ashes, ashes, all fall down!!

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Supafly
BRONZE Member since Apr 2001

TNT
Location: Charlotte, NC

Total posts: 173
Posted:Hey Cained, check out some writings on "Chaos Theory". It's similar, if not the same, to what that fella was talking about and can be applied to life as well as any complex system. One example of how one action can lead to an infinite number of outcomes is where a butterfly flaps its wings, stirs up pollen, excites bees which scare off geese that panic and fly into a radio weather tower, which in turn prevents a tornado warning that would've saved the life of a child destined to become president if that damned butterfly had not flapped its wings. Any variation in these events could have led to an infinite number of other outcomes (and did in the other universes). Quite the evolutionary conundrum eh?

Fear the evil monkey!

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sandman


member
Location: Brighton, England

Total posts: 65
Posted:This 'infinite possibilities = every possibility has occurred' idea was surely from Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy (though of course the theory has probably been knocking around for ages). I remember there was a gambling planet where the natural forces of erosion had carved out casinos and luxury hotels. heh.Oh and hey guys I wouldn't go throwing out comments like 'the universe isn't infinite' or 'we know roughly how many atoms there are'. That may be true or it may not. Remember the only true wisdom lies in knowing that you know nothing for certain.Does all this mean that there's an alternate Earth out there somewhere where I'm really really *good* at poi?nah! What are the odds of that!

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clarkey


member
Location: stratford-upon-avon, UK

Total posts: 29
Posted:Hmmmmm, very interesting i don't think i have adequate knowledge on the subject to justify a relevant posting so i'll stop gibbering. Only wanted to agree with Marlboro and say eat Hoffman for greater insight... well at least it will seem like greater insight
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The best way to predict the future is to invent it

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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:So philosophy taught me this....There can not be absolute nothing, there is always something (like Plastikgirl said) therefore, at the edge of the know universe there is something but we do not know what therefore the universe is infinite in scope, or possibility, and finite in our understanding.Whipping Boy's philosophy prof looked at it this way...that things are only real to us because we believe they are real, other wise we would be nuts. We have no "proof" that we are not in a marble bag, someone else dream or someone else's barbie doll house (one of my favorites).I also don't believe all possibilites have been done and all thoughts/ideas created before fore if I believed that then there would be no use in my being an artist of any form. I know I take common themes, in my striving for a unique one, and give them unique presentation. But I am still working towards and for that one thing that no one has ever seen/read before. It's that greater goal that will most likely never be reached but it keeps me challenged. I agree with Plastikgirl in that I could go rounds of discussion on this and prolly never come back to the same theory twice so I will quit while I am ahead.------------------Pele Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir...http://www.pyromorph.com

Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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Posted:mmm I think for someone to suggest that at the end of this universe there is nothing else - sounds a little flat earth to me.Sure - there is this universe, with its gravitational constant etc etc etc....however I'd be interested to be pointed in the direction (references) of the theories that show that this universe is the *only* one. Sure - perhaps this universe has an 'edge' beyond which there is no space time, but the existance of this universe I think suggests that it is entirely possible for futher universes to exist, more space/time bubbles slowly expanding / contracting in the endless vastness of inter universe nothingness.Logically if something exists it is plausible to suggest that something similar could exist elsewhere, ie quantum level maybes (yeah - check the technical terminology
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) occuring under the same conditions (even if we understood those conditions - which we dont) could produce a similar product. given an infinite amount of time and space in which to occur. Arguing that there is no evidence for other universes is like the flat worlders arguing that there was no evidence to suggest the world wasnt flat...til they were proved wrong. go the offtopicness.Josh


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vanize
SILVER Member since Aug 2001

vanize

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Austin, Texas

Total posts: 3899
Posted:Ok people, watch out, because you actually have an astrophysicist reading what you post. Well, not quite, but I'm writting my dissertation presently. The Universe is very definitely finite. There is no edge to the universe in 3 dimentions.the universe is 4 dimentional. This 4 dimetional shape of the universe is what is curved when they refer to a curvature to the universe (much like a bent 2D piece of paper is curved in 3 dimentions, though the surface of the paper itself is still 2D). This in itself implies a higher dimentionality to the cosmos than those 4 dimentions (since it takes 3D to curve the 2D sheet of paper in the example above). So do not try to think of the universe as curved in 3 dimentions, this is just plain meaninglessEstimates for the dimentionality of the cosmos range from 5 to 11. Don't bother to think about this, because Humans barely comprehend 3D. Time may or may not have something to do with the 4th dimention - we don't know, but that is about as far as we can conjecture beyond 3D.If you travel long enough in one direction, you will wind up in the same place you started. However, you will have to travel faster than the rate at which the universe is expanding. Point in fact though, it will take you so long to do this that you would never be able to recognize it as the same place.To say there is nothingness beyond the known universe is a bit incorrect. First of all, we don't know all the universe yet and there is certainly some of our universe that is beyond what we know. Second of all, you can never get beyond the universe. Third, if you did get beyond, nothing would have as little meaning there as something, and time and timelessness would have no meaning either. But just because the universe isn't infinite doesn't mean it isn't a big place. It would be extremely egocentric to think there is no other life out there. Indeed, I believe life to be not only common in the universe, but downright inevitable. But this is just my philosophy I telling you now, I'm not speaking as a scientist in this paragraph. Parrallel universes are the conjecture of science fiction and the misinterpretation of proper chaos theory. They have no place in proper scientific thinking, only philosophy. That doesn't mean they don't exist, but that doesn't mean they do either and I'm not going to comment on them further.

-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!

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vanize
SILVER Member since Aug 2001

vanize

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Austin, Texas

Total posts: 3899
Posted:P.S. - there may well be other universes. If one exists, it is not unreasonable to assume others can too. There is absolutely no reason to think that the same laws of physics would apply in other universes though (and a fair bit of evidence to suggest they definitely wouldn't). So most likely, even if you could travel to other universes, (which is unlikely in the extreme even if the do exist) you would probably die instantly as the laws of physics that hold your present body together would cease to do so as they don't apply there.You would have to leave this universe to find proof of another. your life, and for that matter anything from this universe, is null and void once it leaves this universe. Proving or disproving the existance of God is going to be a far simpler task than finding observational evidence of another universe.Any theory w/o observational evidence can be little more than just another unprovable theory. But then that whole God thing is an unprovable theory and see how far it's gotten? Quite frankly, beleiving in other universes is more reasonable than beleiving in God, since we can actually know that at least one universe exists, at least to the assuredness that you know that you yourself exist (yet another unprovable theory).

-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!

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Marlboro


member
Location: St.Annes, Lancashire, England

Total posts: 180
Posted:I still think y'all should go with the Hoffman!!PlastikGirl: I've been there too! 'Reality used to be a friend of mine....' Vanize, d'ya fancy explaining Super-Strings to me? Go-on, in layman's terms?:-)~~M

We were somewhere around Barstow on the edge of the desert when the drugs began to take hold.

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Posted:good - from a layman's point of view, i think I did well
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I'm about 2/3 through A Brief History of Time by Steven Hawking which I can really recommend for ppl that are interested (but dont have an astrophysics degree behind them), he explains this stuff - building on each concept to help get you through the harder stuff....although some of the stuff was a bit beyond me (some of the stuff about blackholes for eg) I still have found it really good. I think I'll get it all next time through... As an astrophysist, what do you think of that work?Josh


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Knagi


member
Location: Brunswick, Ohio

Total posts: 397
Posted:Just wanted to point out that they have found something called dark matter I don't know anything about it but it's there from what they say :P------------------We are all in the cosmic movie. That means the day you die you watch your whole life repeating for eternity. So you'd better have some good things happen in there and have a fitting climax. --Jim MorrisonMost Memerable crowd saying "Hey look that dude's gonna set himself on fire again!"

We are all in the cosmic movie. That means the day you die you watch your whole life repeating for eternity. So you'd better have some good things happen in there and have a fitting climax. --Jim MorrisonIt's going to come from a direction you didn't predict at a moment of chaos which you didn't see coming. -- NYC

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vanize
SILVER Member since Aug 2001

vanize

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Austin, Texas

Total posts: 3899
Posted:Oh lord, I knew I was getting myself into trouble saying anything at all - Stephen Hawking, dark matter, superstrings, reality, oh my!Stephen Hawking - I have to be careful how I state this, so as to convey my great respect for the man while still saying the following. His "popular science" books are good reading, and there is a lot of interesting matieral in there told in a way that non-physicist may or may not get. Unfortunately, this means some things have been over-simpified to the point that they are not quite accurate anymore and open to misinterpretation and flights of fancy that the reader hasn't been told are impossible by the same text but in fact are. There is also a fair amount of fringe science in them - conjecture based on real science. Plausible, but wholey unproven and therefore not that likely to be reality. But since it was in a book published by Stephen Hawking, many people accept it as fact when it is really not much more than his own imagination. Not to say that far out fringe science can't eventually become accepted as true (look at the stories of the postulation and eventual discovery of black holes for example), but most fringe theories tend to go nowhere fast. Also, Hawking, much like Einstein, takes far more self-credit for "his" work than he should. No scientist ever stands alone, and these days, it is completely impossible to say one idea is clearly your own anymore. This is in bad form really, though few physicist are going to begrude him this conceit given his condition and difficulty in communicating.Dark matter - another fringe theory of science that seems to be becoming a reality. It was reciently discovered that neutrinos actually do have mass, and this would account for roughly 30% of the dark matter. This solves other quandries we had concerning neutrinos as well. Other newer discoveries, that I have to admit to not keeping up with in anything other than a cursory way, claim to be able to explain the other 70% of the dark mater we think must be there. I don't know enough about these new discoveries to confidently say anything useful about them. Sorry.Superstring theory. Again, not my area of expertise, and not a widely accepted idea in the scientific world. I certainly don't know enough about it to be able to support its validity or even argue against it, much less explain it by email.Reality. Not what you think it is. The hardest thing about being a physicist is that your advanced education (ie, once you get to a course level where the engineers leave and all you have left is people studying physics) rips you concept of reality out of you head, throws it on the ground, kicks it, stomps it, chops it up, burns it, grinds salt into its wounds, and then throws it into a blender and purees it into a fine red mist. After all that, all it does to replace your concept of reality is give you slippery concepts that leave more questions than answers. My way to deal with this loss is to just light stuff on fire and spin it around my head. Or go sit on my board in some waves. Or find someone to have really perverted sex with. And then to just not worry about it anymore.

-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!

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Marlboro


member
Location: St.Annes, Lancashire, England

Total posts: 180
Posted:Vanize, ya last paragraph is a peach. although you could have left it with just ...'Reality. Not what you think it is. 'Ain't dat the truth. and if you think you know what it is you need to go out and experience something you never have (experience everything if ya can!!) - this helps in combating the worst disease known to man - Narrow Mindedness. (does nothing for ya spelling tho!!)L8ers:-)~

We were somewhere around Barstow on the edge of the desert when the drugs began to take hold.

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Myst


addict
Location: Oceanside, California, USA

Total posts: 439
Posted:For some reason, I just don't like to think about the Universe folding over and just ending, so those of you who think this way, STOP!!! Maybe if we all put our heads together and think about living forever, we may end up never dying. I like that a lot better. We will never die!!! say it with me, WE WILL NEVER DIE. There, doesn't everyone feel better now. Death is a bitch and when he comes for me I'll tell him so, if we all do this, maybe he'll be really sad and not have the self esteem to take anyone else.(unless of coarse he picks up some poi and gains it all back)EricJust something to think about

Its about talent, not make up or costumes.

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pixygoth


member
Location: Dundee/Edinburgh, Scotland

Total posts: 14
Posted:Myst, living forever would really suck. Particularly if we managed that but *didn't* manage to find a new, hospitable *system*, let alone planet, since our system *will* almost certainly be sucked into some black hole or whatever, soonish. Even if it's not that dramatic, our sun'll die soon too... you do *not* wanna be here when that happens. My philosophy for this is; I won't be here, I'll already be dead, and I don't plan on bringing anyone else into this pit of an existance, therefore my line at least won't suffer.Having said all that, our planet will likely be screwed long before it's burnt by the sun's death...Sorry, somehow that came out a lot less cheerful than I intended. May as well tack on *Enjoy the moment!* too... I do believe that.p_g x

Shonagh~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~'tralala, said the happy little pixygoth'

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FireSpirit
SILVER Member since Mar 2001

FireSpirit

Classic 90's Fire Dancer... Poi, Staff, Doubles, and Breathing
Location: South Lake Tahoe

Total posts: 743
Posted:What about reading?I just finnished that book for the fourth time. LIFE THE UNIVERSE AND EVERYTHING Here's to The Hitchhiker's Guide! :P

FIRE IS ALIVE!
IT LIVES AND BREATHS!
IT CONSUMES, AND DISTROYS!
BUT WE CONTROL IT,
AND DANCE WITH FIRE!!

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Maya


member


Total posts: 2
Posted:The answer to the question is 42

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dangerboy


dangerboy

original member
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada

Total posts: 205
Posted:in the immortal words of tool:"today, young men on acid realize that matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, there is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we're the imagination of ourselves. here's tom with the weather."that should pretty much do it.------------------Earth my body, water my blood, air my breath, fire my spirit

Earth my body, water my blood, air my breath, fire my spirit

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pixygoth


member
Location: Dundee/Edinburgh, Scotland

Total posts: 14
Posted:And *hooray* for Tool.
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p_g x


Shonagh~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~'tralala, said the happy little pixygoth'

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Posted:I respect that everyone is searching for their own conclusions or following that of wiser others on matters of the meaning of life and the possiblities of the universes, but I offer one analogy that has helped my mind rest. When you consider the goldfish in its bowl, it understands everything within it but hasn't a fraction of the capacity to comprehend our world. We are but goldfish to something bigger, and although we love to tax our minds in this direction, rest easy at night and have bliss in our ignorance. Don't look outside for the answers, look inside. Peace.

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