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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:I'm finding it interesting that the 50/50 male/female mix doesn't seem to hold for the Poi Moves section. I wonder why that is...

(Yes, I know there are a few females that frequent it but the ratio is nowhere near equal as it is in "social" let's say...)

I could make a few sociodemographical guesses as to why (different ways males and females learn, differences in why males and females communicate, ect.) but I do find it interesting.


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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Dio


Dio

HoP Mechanical Engineer
Location: OK, USA

Total posts: 729
Posted:quote: I say this because I saw a beautiful korean rap star on a CD, and I was like "wow, she is so beautiful, I would marry her in an instant" and my freind was like "oh yea, by the way, she used to be a guy" and I was like "damn, I fell for it
One point for DaiTenshi!

Seriously though... I wouldn't confuse "dancing" with simply "movement" either. I mean, look at Jedi White's style, he doesn't do the booty shaking, or any special stepping, he just lets his body move with the poi and does so very well. I agree wholeheartedly that movement is important, but as far as actually "dancing" is concerned... well, depends on the type of spinning you want to do. Then again, isn't movement the definition of dancing?

If you want to be a poi dancer, dance like you have poi. If you want to do poi but move like a salsa dancer, that's personal style choice. Staff and breakdancing/Capoeira, also a personal choice. Whip out the fire ropes and look like a "foolish monkey," hey whatever floats your boat

I think the actual "dance" we do with our fire toys is based on the experience we have had dancing outside of the fire realm. "Movement" is important, "Dance" is how we classify a person's movement style.


What hits the fan is not evenly distributed.

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DJ Dantana
BRONZE Member since Aug 2001

veteran
Location: Stillwater, Ok. USA

Total posts: 1495
Posted:actually it was Jonas who showed me the CD.

Dio, I think you are wrong about one thing. Much of the dance technique I have developed came from poi. I have very little experience in dancing befor I started poi, all I had was martial arts experience. I think I have learned a lot about dance by learning to use poi. Weird? Maybe, but it is true.


we eat and we drink and we smoke and we try!

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_Stix_


_Stix_

Pooh-Bah
Location: la-la land

Total posts: 2419
Posted:(see the poi really do dance.. )

I honour you as an aspect of myself..

You are never to old to storm a bouncey castle..

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DJ Dantana
BRONZE Member since Aug 2001

veteran
Location: Stillwater, Ok. USA

Total posts: 1495
Posted:

well now, I guess I'll just have to eat my words....mmmm, yummy, tastes like chicken!


we eat and we drink and we smoke and we try!

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:OK... I'm sure I'm defining dance differently.

I'm thinking of footwork more than accentuation of the move. I've certainly seen many people move with the poi gracefully, which is what you're all calling dancing.

I guess I've just always been surprised that, with all of directions that poi is moving in, incorporating any kind of recognizable dance into it ISN'T one of them.

I'm not a solid technical spinner, nor do I dance well so I certainly won't be pioneering anything in this area.

My initial frustration remains the lack of respect that the ABSOLUTE best technical spinners in the planet get because "they don't dance". The folks out there bustin' their butt, pioneering and inventing things that this planet has never seen are pushed out of the way for a hot girl in leather jiggling while doing a 3 beat weave. It disrespects it as an art form.

Again, I know I'm wrong but I'm allowed to be wrong every once in a while.


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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Tempest


addict
Location: Sheffield

Total posts: 522
Posted:Quote NYC

"My initial frustration remains the lack of respect that the ABSOLUTE best technical spinners in the planet get because "they don't dance". The folks out there bustin' their butt, pioneering and inventing things that this planet has never seen are pushed out of the way for a hot girl in leather jiggling while doing a 3 beat weave. It disrespects it as an art form."

yup yup yup, much agreement on this one. wise words, so very well put. I'm not sure that we agree on what dancing is defined as but you hit the nail on the head there for me.


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DJ Dantana
BRONZE Member since Aug 2001

veteran
Location: Stillwater, Ok. USA

Total posts: 1495
Posted:werd, absolute respect for the technical spinners who are inventing the wickedest moves this planet has ever seen. These guys (and gurlz) deserve the upmost respect.

That still doesn't cover how fun they are to watch. Yes, I know love to watch technical spinning too. But there is deffinitly a place for dancing.

I guess what I have been thinking all along, but haven't said, is "what I real want to see".

I want to see people who can dance AND do the most technical, and hardest moves, all with fluidity and grace.

Now, you see where I have been coming from?

I define dance not just in "footwork" but also in body movement, and flow.

Put it ALL together. That is what I want to watch. That is what I aspire to be able to do. I may not ever get there. But the joy in life is found in the journey, not the destination.


we eat and we drink and we smoke and we try!

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Glåss
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

Glåss

The Ministry of Manipulation
Location: Bristol

Total posts: 2523
Posted:Quote NYC:
quote: I've just never seen dancing that has added to a poi performance.
Oh Really

Well now theres a little angel going round the world at the moment, I don't know if you've ever had the pleasure to watch her spin (especially if she doesn't think that anyone is watching) she's a very beautiful soul called Danae.


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Dio


Dio

HoP Mechanical Engineer
Location: OK, USA

Total posts: 729
Posted:It's always "I want, I want" with you! Well what about what I want?!

I want a divorce!


What hits the fan is not evenly distributed.

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:Actually Glass, Cassandra was who I was thinking about when I said "moves gracefully with the poi". I know that Dom moves quite gracefully as well (thinking of mutual people)... I just wouldn't have called it dancing.

But again, that's solely because I am wrong.

It seems that I may have a point about the appreciation of technical spinners though. I'll get back to you on that one.


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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DJ Dantana
BRONZE Member since Aug 2001

veteran
Location: Stillwater, Ok. USA

Total posts: 1495
Posted:stop that NYC, you are NOT wrong, you are just different....special even...

I thing cassandra has a very beautiful spinning style, very graceful, and smooth, and I would consider it a dance.

so, you see? you HAVE seen a person who dances and does poi and looks good at it.


we eat and we drink and we smoke and we try!

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Dio


Dio

HoP Mechanical Engineer
Location: OK, USA

Total posts: 729
Posted:is exactly the point i was making - poi is a dance in itself. it may have influences from other dance genres, or personal style, but in the end it's all just the way you move with the poi that makes you unique.

What hits the fan is not evenly distributed.

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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:I have to say this....

1) I find it interesting that this turned back into a male dominated discussion, expecially now that the topic has completely been turned to one focussing on dance and not women's lack of involvement here.

2) Who said the tech best are so disrespected because they don't dance? Or that anyone asked someone to not post the difficult moves? Neither of these never happen, and I have read the ENTIRE Jedi-set thread, multiple times. The tensions come from when people begin disecting and saying "No, that move has been done and don't bring it up here cause that is too much body. We're talking poi." That is disrespectful completely. I find the people who move the most with the poi are not the tech extremists, and tech people have complained extensively in the past about watching these others (on COL3 and such). Both have merits, most commonly one to other spinners and one to a layman audience. That is what is important to remember. There is no disrespect there.

3) As a professional dancer I can tell you it is not T&A based (and NYC, you took it that way, no one claimed it was all sex laden), nor is it based on footwork alone (unless you are into Irish Step Dancing, that is a horse of a greenish color!). Poi is a prop for dance. An important one for us. Dance is a physical movement interpreting music, emotion or other life influences, most commonly rhythmic in nature (though modern dance can be a-rhythmic). It does not always require music, but it does require some discernable movement of the body. When using a prop in dance, the prop is not the only thing to move, the body must move with it. (We use staff, poi, bolas, swords, cane, baskets, snakes, drums, etc...) I can stand around and manipulate all these things all I want, so can a juggler, a spinner, whatever...but while the prop is in motion if the artist is not, it is not dance, by technical definition.

4) Santana love, no matter how you move your booty, I am sure you look fine. Who cares what us silly women think? Do it because you love it, because you have fun with it, because it is your passion. That will show in your face and in your moves and THAT IS SOOOOOOOO SEXY!

And...You are soooo on for that booty shakin contest when I get to finally meet you!


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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Tempest


addict
Location: Sheffield

Total posts: 522
Posted:So onto the much awaited question then Pele, can we possible see some vid of you spinning or dancing please.

In fact it would be lovely to see all you mods backing up HoP and producing something for either the site or the next CoL video, or even on your site.

I am always looking for inspiration from dancers, especially ones who do it for a living so i can learn to flow more with my body, something i lack unfortunatley


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Rozi
SILVER Member since Jan 2002

100 characters max...
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia

Total posts: 2996
Posted:talk talk talk, that is all you men ever do. Gossip and bicker, bicker and gossip, pause occasionally for pissing contest.

I suddenly lost all desire to post in this topic when the subject change occurred. I have to have a think about why. Will post more soon.


It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.

What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...

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DJ Dantana
BRONZE Member since Aug 2001

veteran
Location: Stillwater, Ok. USA

Total posts: 1495
Posted:I am down!

And, in regards to the "topic change" it is not a topic change because one of the roots of the discussion was the fact that the women are not involved in the techincal section because they are more concerned with dance and movement than with technical skills, therefore it is not a change of topic to talk about dance, in fact it is one of the main bases of this discussion... IMHO


we eat and we drink and we smoke and we try!

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:Firstly, this thread changed topic because people were voicing that the technical spinners were being too intimidating. So then it turned into technical spinning and dancing, rather than male female.

My question seems to have been answered. Women clearly feel intimidated posting here. It's not a vibe I've ever gotten which is strange because I am a MUCH worse spinner than most of the tech guys. Perhaps my lack of insecurity about my pathetisad poi skills allows me to post on high tech threads without feeling intimidated.

There is also, clearly, a snowball effect of "Women don't post here because women don't post here."

The Jedi thread is a poor example of a welcoming thread because it became one of the most destroyed threads in history after several fights broke out. The whole idea (to me) of the jedi thread was establishing a group of HIGHLY difficult moves. There are MANY other threads that are welcoming and specific which women chose not to post on.

IF it's a fact that there are no female technical spinners than it's NO WONDER that they don't post in the POI MOVES section.

Frankly, when talking in person to HoPers, I've heard more of "I don't understand when poi moves are explained in words" then "boys are intimidating out off of this section"...

"Who said the tech best are so disrespected because they don't dance?" Me. I've heard it many many times.

The true tech boys that I know and love are some of the warmest and friendliest guys on the board and therefore the world. If people are being intimidated by language or lack of ability to visualize moves then that's a very different issue than people being put off by aggression or getting flamed.


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:Reads above post and wonders why NYC seems so offended. I think it's because I asked a neutral question of "why don't females post here" and feel that much of the answer was "It's all your fault."

Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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BlackFireJack


member
Location: Bergen , Norway

Total posts: 167
Posted:When it comes to poi being a dance and all....
I have a different view on that ....I dont think of my self as doing a dance where poi is a prop....I see that some do and thats a good thing.....but it doesent work for me cause i dont like to dance.........at all.....
what I like to think that I'm doing is "painting the night with fire"......
I dont focus on what my arms and body are doing cause it's the moving fireballs that are important.....I dont even care if you cant see the person poi-ing as long as there is circles of fire moving around.....

Know it may sound strange to some.....
And the "Paint the night with fire" thing is not about my ego but about how I look at the art

And since I have the view I have techy stuff is important to me......Hyperloops give me small circles to paint with........behind the back stuff breaks the circle.....and on and on and on..

Anyone understand what I'm trying to say?


Peace


I like Fire.. :)

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poiaholic22


member


Total posts: 531
Posted:Wow who would have thought that a completely innocent observation of the poi moves board would turn into this.

No offense to anyone but isn't the whole "I feel intimidated by the techy's so I don't post here" more of a cop-out?I am getting more and more technical these days and I feel intimidated at times in this section because descriptions are sometimes overdone or not done enough.Rather than just backing away wouldn't it be more rewarding to ask for more information.Just recently ,in the Jedi thread, I asked these guys what a hyperloop is because I didn't understand any of the prior descriptions and Santana and Coleman laid it out for me in simpler terms.Also PK ,Dom , and Jo ,just to name a few, are also always more than willing to help if you don't understand something. We all are,you just have to ask sometimes.

On the topic of dance and poi,wouldn't this be a matter of preference.I don't enjoy watching anyone stand absolutely still and just do a three beat weave but I would rather watch someone who is stellar at controlling the poi than someone who can just dance with them.Not saying that people who feel poi and dance need to be united are inferior spinners.Just saying this is more a matter of preference, no?

I would love to see an all girl's video.I have been spinning for almost a year now and have noticed a severe imbalance in the boys to girls ratio.Some of you have said that an all girls video would only serve to say that the girls aren't as good as the guys.What does that say about Sage?


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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:NYC, I have reread this and nothing was ever said in an accusatory manner. You are taking things this way now because you seem to be in defensive mode. Take it for what is said, not for what can be read into it.

It was briefly mentioned by one or two people that the descriptions are hard to follow and I know that several men on here feel that same way about it. That is not a female cop out at all. If I didn't understand, I would ask. No sweat.

What I am seeing now is exactly one of the reasons that posting here gets feeling funky....there is this defensiveness going on. You asked, we answered and now we are being accused of pointing fingers and using cop outs? Ummmm...no. If we were going to accuse anyone, we would've started the thread, and not politely answered the questions when they were put out there. If we take the time to answer, then why would we lie and spew cop out crap rather than telling the truth?
Please, accept the answers you have been graciously given gentlemen.

Tempest...if you want to see the mods....

1) Flash Fire can be found on (I believe) COL2, maybe COL1.

2) Charles can be seen in the "Art of Staff with Charles Dolbel"

3) Later this year or early next year there will be a "Pele" video made and released along the lines of the "Sage" video produced by Malcolm last year.

And I admit I am sh!tting bricks over doing this video. I have seen you guys (in the generic everyone sense) rip the people on COL3 to shreds, and some even did it to Sage, because they were not technical enough for you, regardless of the fact that many of them oozed personal style. I won't be doing all poi. In fact, I have some swinging props that are fairly non-exstistant in the spinning world because they are for dance primarily. I am not using techno music, at all. I am a mediocre spinner but a pretty decent performer with a style all my own. That is what Malcolm wants to show and I am completely in limbo about making this video because of how critical people can be about technicalities. I promised Malcolm (and others) I would do this, so I am telling you, if you are after seeing 7 beat anythings, this won't be for you at all.


(Hey Malcolm, can we sneak a camera over to Sydney and tape FF? Maybe some of Rex and Diana? Then we will do some taping of you and bring to the boards the HoP Staff video? )


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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Rozi
SILVER Member since Jan 2002

100 characters max...
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia

Total posts: 2996
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Rozi:
talk talk talk, that is all you men ever do. Gossip and bicker, bicker and gossip, pause occasionally for pissing contest.

I suddenly lost all desire to post in this topic when the subject change occurred. I have to have a think about why. Will post more soon. Grrrr, now I am angry. What I was saying to you was an honest analysis of what was going through my head. You did change topics and I did lose interest and I don't know why. I want to have a little peace to sit down and think about why and then I might have some answers for you on the original topic.

Sorry NYC, there is a problem and you haven't talked it out thoroughly.


It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.

What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...

Delete

NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:quote: NYC, I have reread this and nothing was ever said in an accusatory manner. You are taking things this way now because you seem to be in defensive mode. quote: What I am seeing now is exactly one of the reasons that posting here gets feeling funky....there is this defensiveness going on. Pele, I fully understand. My defensiveness and the aggression and competition of others in this section have made this an unpleasant place for women to be. Got it. I asked a question and completely respect and understand the answer.

Clearly if women wanted to post here, they would. There are certainly some extremely intelligent and articulate women on this site.

Rozi, I wasn't referring to your post, I was referring to Pele's. I saw your intent to post later and thought nothing else. Nothing in my post was referring to anything that you said in your "talk talk talk" post.

quote: Sorry NYC, there is a problem and you haven't talked it out thoroughly.
Is there a way to read this and not feel condesenced to? Perhaps I don't understand what that means or why. Can you please explain? I feel that I've said everything that I think on the subject but clearly you feel differently.


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

Enter a "Title" here:
Location: San Diego California

Total posts: 2905
Posted:*Decides to go back to the war, where its safe!*

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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DJ Dantana
BRONZE Member since Aug 2001

veteran
Location: Stillwater, Ok. USA

Total posts: 1495
Posted:I realy don't understand how anything anybody has said here could be taken as offensive. I thought we were all sharing our opinions in a freindly manner.... weren't we? Aren't we still?

Anyways, I still feel this whole thread has remained on topic, simply because there was a problem presented, and a question as to "why is this happening?" developed, at which point cause-effect relationships started being proposed. With such an open ended question it is quite easy for the discusion to twist and turn all sorts of directions...Have you ever asked someone "why?" and then asked them "why?" again? And kept doing it? it is realy a fun exercise.

And pele, I'm SO down for a booty shaking contest lets shake what our mommas gave us!!!

I raly think you should sucker malcolm and FF into joining you in the video I think it would be cool. And, you are brave to have a video done of just yourself. That take a lot of courage. Most importantly though, do it for yourself and don't take any harsh critisizm to heart. I for one am looking forward to seeing it, I don't car if you can do a btb weave or a seven beat. I like to see dance with poi.


we eat and we drink and we smoke and we try!

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arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2363
Posted:

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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_Stix_


_Stix_

Pooh-Bah
Location: la-la land

Total posts: 2419
Posted:I still see nothing but healthy conversation.. true the primary content has changed, but it's developing and growing..

any way just wanted to say Jackalero's post was really painting beautiful images in my mind..

quote:Originally posted by Jackelero:
....but it doesent work for me cause i dont like to dance.........at all.....
what I like to think that I'm doing is "painting the night with fire"......
I dont focus on what my arms and body are doing cause it's the moving fireballs that are important.....I dont even care if you cant see the person poi-ing as long as there is circles of fire moving around.....

Know it may sound strange to some.....
And the "Paint the night with fire" thing is not about my ego but about how I look at the art

And since I have the view I have techy stuff is important to me......Hyperloops give me small circles to paint with........behind the back stuff breaks the circle.....and on and on and on..

Anyone understand what I'm trying to say?


Peace Love it Jackalero! I understand..


I think it's amazing that all these different view points are brought together and discussed because of the passion that we all feel to those little thingies on strings that we whirl around our heads.. Power to the poi.. they bring people together from all parts of conciousness..

to you all!


I honour you as an aspect of myself..

You are never to old to storm a bouncey castle..

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DJ Dantana
BRONZE Member since Aug 2001

veteran
Location: Stillwater, Ok. USA

Total posts: 1495
Posted:I have to agree with you MisSticks, Jackelro's post has been reverberating through my mind. I guess it set up a harmonic or something, because now I keep thinking of it and I want to "paint the night" also. It makes it seem magical and mysteriouse. It gives me a feeling of peace, to think I can just relax and not worry about moving around, just stand there and become an artist of fire. to become nonexistent, and only the fire exists. It brings a perspective to my mind, something I was missing, or had forgoten. I guess I got wraped up in other frames of mind.

I still like to be able to see the person spinning though, it give me a headache to watch videos where I can't see the spinner.

The painting the night seems more of a meditation tool to me, where as if I am watching somebody I do need to see them and not just the fire. WHich realy only matters on video, because oyu can always see the person if you are there in person.


we eat and we drink and we smoke and we try!

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Jo


Jo

member
Location: Sheffield, England

Total posts: 517
Posted:This topic's gone in every direction so I'm not going to call this 'off topic'

It is really, really hard to describe complex moves.

If that makes the descriptions intimidating then tough because it won't get any easier to put these moves down in writing.

The 'friendly rivalry' is deffinitely too strong at times though - and that is a much more valid reason for not visiting the page than 'difficult descriptions'.

Jo.


Educate yourself in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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poiaholic22


member


Total posts: 531
Posted:quote:Originally posted by NYC:

My defensiveness and the aggression and competition of others in this section have made this an unpleasant place for women to be.I find that kind of odd being that I have never seen the mood get as heated here as it has a habit of getting in the Social Discussion board.

Though I have a habit of being wrong so please anyone jump in and tell me how wrong I am.


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