Forums > Beginner Poi Moves > counting moves? huh?
Login/Join to ParticipatePooh-Bah
2,364 posts
Location: austin,tx
2,364 posts
Location: austin,tx
Posted:
(edit; i have retitled this thread for clarity)
well against insurmountable odds, and with the help of a little button in the search engine i never saw before , and a little help from cassandra naming things as i did them, i have finally started to understand the lingo around here. man it's been tough- i had to translate _everything_ to a new language without anything but written words to describe movements. even figuring out which airwrap an airwrap is took a while! okay it didn't take _that_ long but it took a while. so love me i'm almost there, and i love talking techie, so please help me out. i still have one last question. (actually i'm sure i'll have a few more later )
this whole counting moves thing. it's something we never even tried doing out here in the lone star state , so i would like to have some idea of how in the world you guys count moves. for instance i've seen it written that there are hundreds of weave moves. is there some basic sytem that can be easily explained? is a 3 beat weave a 3 beat weave(one move), no matter where it is, and you are also breaking it up into different body placement combinations?
[ 10. December 2002, 14:39: Message edited by: arashi ]
(edit; i have retitled this thread for clarity)
well against insurmountable odds, and with the help of a little button in the search engine i never saw before , and a little help from cassandra naming things as i did them, i have finally started to understand the lingo around here. man it's been tough- i had to translate _everything_ to a new language without anything but written words to describe movements. even figuring out which airwrap an airwrap is took a while! okay it didn't take _that_ long but it took a while. so love me i'm almost there, and i love talking techie, so please help me out. i still have one last question. (actually i'm sure i'll have a few more later )
this whole counting moves thing. it's something we never even tried doing out here in the lone star state , so i would like to have some idea of how in the world you guys count moves. for instance i've seen it written that there are hundreds of weave moves. is there some basic sytem that can be easily explained? is a 3 beat weave a 3 beat weave(one move), no matter where it is, and you are also breaking it up into different body placement combinations?
[ 10. December 2002, 14:39: Message edited by: arashi ]
-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.
BRONZE Member
Lambretta Fanatic
4,997 posts
Location: United Kingdom
Lambretta Fanatic
4,997 posts
Location: United Kingdom
Posted:
this is my speciallity so i've been told, understanding moves.
heres the answer to your question.
a 3 beat weave actually consists of 2 moves put together, with an outcome of one simple move.
the 2 moves are basic 2 beat weaves [2 beat is a weave][3 beat is a cross and follow] [club spinners move][also called a hurricane in german why i dont know]
2 beat weave can be done by moving your right hand over your left or left over the right.
if you then take these two moves and make the combination of right over left then dropping right under the left for a second rotation the pattern will mirror on the right making the 3 beat cross follow.
just to add, with progress there are many 2 beat weaves and cross follows with offsets and so on.
hugs to you on your progress mate, names are justs names but dont mean any thing but just help us all to understand simple things that really arnt that important.
this is my speciallity so i've been told, understanding moves.
heres the answer to your question.
a 3 beat weave actually consists of 2 moves put together, with an outcome of one simple move.
the 2 moves are basic 2 beat weaves [2 beat is a weave][3 beat is a cross and follow] [club spinners move][also called a hurricane in german why i dont know]
2 beat weave can be done by moving your right hand over your left or left over the right.
if you then take these two moves and make the combination of right over left then dropping right under the left for a second rotation the pattern will mirror on the right making the 3 beat cross follow.
just to add, with progress there are many 2 beat weaves and cross follows with offsets and so on.
hugs to you on your progress mate, names are justs names but dont mean any thing but just help us all to understand simple things that really arnt that important.
GOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
Interesting question, arashi.
For the basic counting system. There is an article on counting the beats in the glossary. Ok, this is a start, and may be of help.
I gather you are after a bit more. Like you're asking is a 3 beat weave considered one move, or is it three single moves? No matter where it is, and you are also breaking it up into different body placement combinations?
I bet everyone has there own ideas on this one. My initial reaction is 3 single moves. But, then we get into short hand for convenience and just say 3-beat weave. Dunno, will think about it, and what PK said. Then have another go later
Interesting question, arashi.
For the basic counting system. There is an article on counting the beats in the glossary. Ok, this is a start, and may be of help.
I gather you are after a bit more. Like you're asking is a 3 beat weave considered one move, or is it three single moves? No matter where it is, and you are also breaking it up into different body placement combinations?
I bet everyone has there own ideas on this one. My initial reaction is 3 single moves. But, then we get into short hand for convenience and just say 3-beat weave. Dunno, will think about it, and what PK said. Then have another go later
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
Pooh-Bah
2,364 posts
Location: austin,tx
2,364 posts
Location: austin,tx
Posted:
let me rephrase that. i'm not talking about the beat counts. but it did help me understand your system that much more to hear your breakdown of the beats.
what i mean is the moves, not the beats. for instance PK just said to fireball, that once he learned the 7 beat he could do 20 more moves. that is just an example, but obviously there has been a breakdown of the moves within a family of moves.
let me rephrase that. i'm not talking about the beat counts. but it did help me understand your system that much more to hear your breakdown of the beats.
what i mean is the moves, not the beats. for instance PK just said to fireball, that once he learned the 7 beat he could do 20 more moves. that is just an example, but obviously there has been a breakdown of the moves within a family of moves.
-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.
NYC
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Posted:
Word Arashi,
I completely understand what you mean. I've long since given up... actually never really started distingushing the number of moves that could be done... I think those London boys do that often.
I always thought that there were infinite tiny variations on every move.
Sounds like a Glass question to me...
Word Arashi,
I completely understand what you mean. I've long since given up... actually never really started distingushing the number of moves that could be done... I think those London boys do that often.
I always thought that there were infinite tiny variations on every move.
Sounds like a Glass question to me...
Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]
BRONZE Member
HOP librarian
1,841 posts
Location: Prague, Czech. Republic
HOP librarian
1,841 posts
Location: Prague, Czech. Republic
Posted:
When I began twirling I dont knew how to write all trick I know.Month before I did complete list of them,but through the years I find many ways how to write them all.Now I heve some sistem:
1.normal direction
split time
a)Weave
b)Corkscrew
..
same time
a)turn
b)Cross-over
..
2.opposite direction
split time
a)BF
..
..
3.Various
a)Throws
..
b)Wraps
c)Stalls
d)One-handed
..
In 1. and 2. wrote I some basic tricks and their possibilites where can be(over head,BTB,add beats...) and in 3. something like List of all wraps thread...
No turns,no forward or bacward because all tricks in 1.,2.,3. have it... so 4*(my list)=all tricks I knew...new are coming with HOP
My sistem is directions,basics tricks and their placement and various.
When I began twirling I dont knew how to write all trick I know.Month before I did complete list of them,but through the years I find many ways how to write them all.Now I heve some sistem:
1.normal direction
split time
a)Weave
b)Corkscrew
..
same time
a)turn
b)Cross-over
..
2.opposite direction
split time
a)BF
..
..
3.Various
a)Throws
..
b)Wraps
c)Stalls
d)One-handed
..
In 1. and 2. wrote I some basic tricks and their possibilites where can be(over head,BTB,add beats...) and in 3. something like List of all wraps thread...
No turns,no forward or bacward because all tricks in 1.,2.,3. have it... so 4*(my list)=all tricks I knew...new are coming with HOP
My sistem is directions,basics tricks and their placement and various.
POI THEO(R)IST
GOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
arashi, you want to discuss moves within the move families, that would be fun but no time today.
I'm not sure how other people count moves (not sure I know how I count moves, either), but as a start I will suggest the 20 new moves, in you're weave example. Would consist of a set of 10 moves to the right and a set of 10 moves to the left i.e. double the count if you can do them each way.
This is basic Ok. But you could also check out Sharon and Kati' club swinging explanation of a 12 point fountain in the Gandini video sample (link supplied by coleman, in the waist wrap thread).
arashi, you want to discuss moves within the move families, that would be fun but no time today.
I'm not sure how other people count moves (not sure I know how I count moves, either), but as a start I will suggest the 20 new moves, in you're weave example. Would consist of a set of 10 moves to the right and a set of 10 moves to the left i.e. double the count if you can do them each way.
This is basic Ok. But you could also check out Sharon and Kati' club swinging explanation of a 12 point fountain in the Gandini video sample (link supplied by coleman, in the waist wrap thread).
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
BRONZE Member
addict
529 posts
Location: I wish I knew, United Kingdom
addict
529 posts
Location: I wish I knew, United Kingdom
Posted:
The impression I got was that an "n-beat weave" was one move. The 7-beat opens up 20 or so more weaves if you don't unwrap your arms fully.
Say you're fully wrapped up (shoulder, elbow, wrist) on the left, and then on the right you unwrap your only your wrists before crossing back over to the left, you end up with a 3-beat weave that is offset by a couple of revolutions. The 20 moves all come from variations in how much you unwrap your arms.
Make any sense? I hope so, but probably not.
J
The impression I got was that an "n-beat weave" was one move. The 7-beat opens up 20 or so more weaves if you don't unwrap your arms fully.
Say you're fully wrapped up (shoulder, elbow, wrist) on the left, and then on the right you unwrap your only your wrists before crossing back over to the left, you end up with a 3-beat weave that is offset by a couple of revolutions. The 20 moves all come from variations in how much you unwrap your arms.
Make any sense? I hope so, but probably not.
J
If you're not confused, you're not thinking about things hard enough.
Pooh-Bah
2,364 posts
Location: austin,tx
2,364 posts
Location: austin,tx
Posted:
oh, i'm pretty sure i got it. but then that would mean that there are thousands and thousands of moves, since you can wrap in any move and call all the weave options a new move. that can't be it, as everything i hear is in the dozens to hundreds range. specifically i want to know if, say, an under the leg butterfy is the same move as a armpit btb butterfly, or a regular butterfly. or are they solely counted by variations caused by body movement, like the difference between the weave, the mexican weave, and the corkscrew? are they in the weave family? or are they their own family? are they their own move? like is a 7 beat corkscrew the same as a 7 beat weave?
the reason i'm asking all this is because your style is so foreign to mine. we do the same moves, but i break them down very differently, i think. even on a fundamental mathematical level.
oh, i'm pretty sure i got it. but then that would mean that there are thousands and thousands of moves, since you can wrap in any move and call all the weave options a new move. that can't be it, as everything i hear is in the dozens to hundreds range. specifically i want to know if, say, an under the leg butterfy is the same move as a armpit btb butterfly, or a regular butterfly. or are they solely counted by variations caused by body movement, like the difference between the weave, the mexican weave, and the corkscrew? are they in the weave family? or are they their own family? are they their own move? like is a 7 beat corkscrew the same as a 7 beat weave?
the reason i'm asking all this is because your style is so foreign to mine. we do the same moves, but i break them down very differently, i think. even on a fundamental mathematical level.
-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.
Pooh-Bah
2,364 posts
Location: austin,tx
2,364 posts
Location: austin,tx
Posted:
and darnit stone i couldn't get that link to work. thanks tho. the main problem here is that i don't know jack squat about all this fancy movie stuff. so all i have is the words.
and darnit stone i couldn't get that link to work. thanks tho. the main problem here is that i don't know jack squat about all this fancy movie stuff. so all i have is the words.
-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.
GOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
arashi, I expect everyone has different ways of looking at things. A lot of the generic names at HOP come from the poi lessons and video. Here are a few thoughts on moves and stuff
Move's with names like the full fountain, are just patterns that are easily repeated. Different people call em different names, but usually the generic name provides a clue to the pattern. For example, a full fountain is also known as a shower or an around-the-world.
I see two families, and each can be done vertical or horizontal. The first is where chains travel in one direction (forwards or backwards) eg. the weaves. The second is where chains are swung in mixed directions (inwards or outwards) eg. the butterflies.
You can run chains in same-time or split-time. Split-time is where one chain is half a circle ahead of the other. Going from "chasing the sun" to a "windmill" is like going from a same-time move to a split-time move (vertical).
Questions
The mexican weave, or wave? The wave, is an alternating butterfly, shoulder high. Butterfly weaves later.
The corkscrew is a horizontal move.
arashi, I expect everyone has different ways of looking at things. A lot of the generic names at HOP come from the poi lessons and video. Here are a few thoughts on moves and stuff
Move's with names like the full fountain, are just patterns that are easily repeated. Different people call em different names, but usually the generic name provides a clue to the pattern. For example, a full fountain is also known as a shower or an around-the-world.
I see two families, and each can be done vertical or horizontal. The first is where chains travel in one direction (forwards or backwards) eg. the weaves. The second is where chains are swung in mixed directions (inwards or outwards) eg. the butterflies.
You can run chains in same-time or split-time. Split-time is where one chain is half a circle ahead of the other. Going from "chasing the sun" to a "windmill" is like going from a same-time move to a split-time move (vertical).
Questions
quote:Ok, this is how I see it. The weave starts with the 3-beat (over/under).
..the difference between, the mexican weave, and the corkscrew? are they in the weave family? or are they their own family? are they their own move?
The mexican weave, or wave? The wave, is an alternating butterfly, shoulder high. Butterfly weaves later.
The corkscrew is a horizontal move.
quote:The corkscrew is just a generic name for a horizontal move. A 7 beat corkscrew, would be equivalent to a horizontal 7 beat weave. A 9 beat corkscrew would put you in orbit. With or without wraps ???
Like is a 7 beat corkscrew the same as a 7 beat weave?
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
BRONZE Member
HOP librarian
1,841 posts
Location: Prague, Czech. Republic
HOP librarian
1,841 posts
Location: Prague, Czech. Republic
Posted:
Stone-
8 beat corkscrew-without wraps
9 beat corkscrew with
**
8 beat corkscrew turn clockwise OK and unticlockwise?
Stone-
8 beat corkscrew-without wraps
9 beat corkscrew with
**
8 beat corkscrew turn clockwise OK and unticlockwise?
POI THEO(R)IST
Pooh-Bah
2,364 posts
Location: austin,tx
2,364 posts
Location: austin,tx
Posted:
lol stone
and thanks for the enthusiasm richee, can't wait to jam with all you guys.
my this is frustrating. let me be more clear in that i've known every move ever discussed on any hop board for a while, and many, many more in my own vocabulary. as we all do. it's talking about them in words that gets weird. but there are hundreds of moves that are individual, like chasing the sun, without even counting the beats. i know that. what i want to know is how they are being divided up. like, here's an example, a simple one. "long arm" butterfly to btb butterfly on the left side. is that its own move? or is it just a transition, long arm to btb bfly, etc.? and another, slightly different concept of classification... revolving the butterfly around a central axis as if you were doing it one handed and twisting your hand around. if a fountain is a "move", which is just a weave pattern, why wouldn't that be? and if _that_ is, why are there so few moves? is the sideways butterfly its own move? it certainly matters once you hyperloop it. and how do you differentiate _where_ you hyperloop it? and _how_ you hyperloop it? does it even matter? it does, but i don't have the words to help illustrate why. i'm starting to get the impression that the only people who know what that particular system is are the people in london who i guess made it up. so i don't think i really need to stress to learn it, because all i wanted was to be able to talk techie with you guys, and i can already do that in my own language. but my language is different than yours so we'll have to just live with it and try to talk the best we can. of course _everyone_ that taught themselves has their own system. we all do. i thought there was already a widespread, unified thing. perhaps not. maybe this book that's coming out soon will help, at least then we'll all have a pictoral language to refer to. i thought that everybody would know what this whole system thing is, it seemed that way from the way it was talked about. but i reckon it ain't quite uibiquitous. course i just recently started venturing out of the social/technical boards, so i had to figure that out too. as a sidenote, i've already got my own system of teaching, exercises, and everything, sort of like the jeet-kune-do of poi, where the moves aren't counted at all. but there are more basic patterns to it than the home of poi school, and it is geared more toward dancing while doing them, and not just the patterns. some of my 6/7/8 beat no wrap weaves are probably much different than yours, and his, and hers. course i can only guess. so maybe not.
"your kung fu is good, now try my indecipherable fist!!"
lol stone
and thanks for the enthusiasm richee, can't wait to jam with all you guys.
my this is frustrating. let me be more clear in that i've known every move ever discussed on any hop board for a while, and many, many more in my own vocabulary. as we all do. it's talking about them in words that gets weird. but there are hundreds of moves that are individual, like chasing the sun, without even counting the beats. i know that. what i want to know is how they are being divided up. like, here's an example, a simple one. "long arm" butterfly to btb butterfly on the left side. is that its own move? or is it just a transition, long arm to btb bfly, etc.? and another, slightly different concept of classification... revolving the butterfly around a central axis as if you were doing it one handed and twisting your hand around. if a fountain is a "move", which is just a weave pattern, why wouldn't that be? and if _that_ is, why are there so few moves? is the sideways butterfly its own move? it certainly matters once you hyperloop it. and how do you differentiate _where_ you hyperloop it? and _how_ you hyperloop it? does it even matter? it does, but i don't have the words to help illustrate why. i'm starting to get the impression that the only people who know what that particular system is are the people in london who i guess made it up. so i don't think i really need to stress to learn it, because all i wanted was to be able to talk techie with you guys, and i can already do that in my own language. but my language is different than yours so we'll have to just live with it and try to talk the best we can. of course _everyone_ that taught themselves has their own system. we all do. i thought there was already a widespread, unified thing. perhaps not. maybe this book that's coming out soon will help, at least then we'll all have a pictoral language to refer to. i thought that everybody would know what this whole system thing is, it seemed that way from the way it was talked about. but i reckon it ain't quite uibiquitous. course i just recently started venturing out of the social/technical boards, so i had to figure that out too. as a sidenote, i've already got my own system of teaching, exercises, and everything, sort of like the jeet-kune-do of poi, where the moves aren't counted at all. but there are more basic patterns to it than the home of poi school, and it is geared more toward dancing while doing them, and not just the patterns. some of my 6/7/8 beat no wrap weaves are probably much different than yours, and his, and hers. course i can only guess. so maybe not.
"your kung fu is good, now try my indecipherable fist!!"
-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.
BRONZE Member
veteran
1,495 posts
Location: Stillwater, Ok. USA
veteran
1,495 posts
Location: Stillwater, Ok. USA
Posted:
the way I see it....
a weave has infinite variations, it's just that some are very similar, and some aren't thought of, so thats why someone might say "I have 30 variations on a weave, but there are realy like a million, based on everything...
here is an example. lets say you do a weave, then you add a variation on the right side, (that's 1) then you do the variation on the left side (that's 1 more) then you do it all in reverse (that's 2 more) now that you have done all that, do it all low (add 4) then high (add 4) then do all that behind the back (multiply sum by two).
so do the math (1+1+2+4+4)*2=24 ways of doing one variation. so there are like many variations to a weave, so you can see how this could all get very complicated. lets say you come up with 10 vaiations to a weave, well thats 10*24=240 variations to a weave, TWO HUNDRED AND FOURTY!!!
this gets way to complicated, way to quickly. so what I do, is simplify it. Lets make them all symetrical, and include the reverse version in it for good measure, then you are left with just "high, regular, and low" which knocks down the number of variations in our previouse example to.... (3*2)*10=60
But to take it one step further, most people(I think) include "behind the back" as a seperate creature, so that leaves us with only 3*10=30 variations on a move, but then you have regualar=30 and btb=30
that's all still complicated, but it is the simplest version I think, because it relates the move and the position
the thing with btb moves is that when you do them high they are behind the head. Low they are often between the legs. and only in the middle are they behind the back.
we are not even talking about body movement (dance), I think that is a totaly seperate thing...
so the long version...
example: double handcuff wrap, from a weave or from a butterfly (same or split time) or corkscrew, going forwards or going backwards, on the left or on the right, in front, btb, over the head (floor plane) that would be
weave [2(f/r)*2(reg/btb)*2 (left/right)+4 (under the leg)]*2 (wall plane)=24 (not including high/low)
corkscrew 2(clock/anticlock)*2(high/low)=4
butterfly 2(for/rev)*2(btb)+2(bth/floor plane)=6
lets see...mental math...thats 32 variations?!?!?! on a double handcuff wrap (I can't do the btb weave ones yet, or reverse butterfly ones) so I can do about 13 different handcuff wraps (plus two from a hyperloop)...probably more if i work on it. So, I can do about 15 different handcuff wraps....
as you can see, it get realy complicated, realy quickly...
the way I see it....
a weave has infinite variations, it's just that some are very similar, and some aren't thought of, so thats why someone might say "I have 30 variations on a weave, but there are realy like a million, based on everything...
here is an example. lets say you do a weave, then you add a variation on the right side, (that's 1) then you do the variation on the left side (that's 1 more) then you do it all in reverse (that's 2 more) now that you have done all that, do it all low (add 4) then high (add 4) then do all that behind the back (multiply sum by two).
so do the math (1+1+2+4+4)*2=24 ways of doing one variation. so there are like many variations to a weave, so you can see how this could all get very complicated. lets say you come up with 10 vaiations to a weave, well thats 10*24=240 variations to a weave, TWO HUNDRED AND FOURTY!!!
this gets way to complicated, way to quickly. so what I do, is simplify it. Lets make them all symetrical, and include the reverse version in it for good measure, then you are left with just "high, regular, and low" which knocks down the number of variations in our previouse example to.... (3*2)*10=60
But to take it one step further, most people(I think) include "behind the back" as a seperate creature, so that leaves us with only 3*10=30 variations on a move, but then you have regualar=30 and btb=30
that's all still complicated, but it is the simplest version I think, because it relates the move and the position
the thing with btb moves is that when you do them high they are behind the head. Low they are often between the legs. and only in the middle are they behind the back.
we are not even talking about body movement (dance), I think that is a totaly seperate thing...
so the long version...
example: double handcuff wrap, from a weave or from a butterfly (same or split time) or corkscrew, going forwards or going backwards, on the left or on the right, in front, btb, over the head (floor plane) that would be
weave [2(f/r)*2(reg/btb)*2 (left/right)+4 (under the leg)]*2 (wall plane)=24 (not including high/low)
corkscrew 2(clock/anticlock)*2(high/low)=4
butterfly 2(for/rev)*2(btb)+2(bth/floor plane)=6
lets see...mental math...thats 32 variations?!?!?! on a double handcuff wrap (I can't do the btb weave ones yet, or reverse butterfly ones) so I can do about 13 different handcuff wraps (plus two from a hyperloop)...probably more if i work on it. So, I can do about 15 different handcuff wraps....
as you can see, it get realy complicated, realy quickly...
we eat and we drink and we smoke and we try!
BRONZE Member
HOP librarian
1,841 posts
Location: Prague, Czech. Republic
HOP librarian
1,841 posts
Location: Prague, Czech. Republic
Posted:
Arashi-
In my division:
Long arm Bf to BF is transition not move in Bf section.
Fountain is name of weave transiton..transition usualy havent names,but fountain name is from club swinging and become known.
Is diferent if some transition is between moves in one class or transition between classes.One class consist body placement and added beats of simple trick.Each of body placemens are diferent and have 4 kinds of own representation(transition)forward,backward and turn L or R. 4*each move in each class
Ist my classificatoin...
Arashi-
In my division:
Long arm Bf to BF is transition not move in Bf section.
Fountain is name of weave transiton..transition usualy havent names,but fountain name is from club swinging and become known.
Is diferent if some transition is between moves in one class or transition between classes.One class consist body placement and added beats of simple trick.Each of body placemens are diferent and have 4 kinds of own representation(transition)forward,backward and turn L or R. 4*each move in each class
Ist my classificatoin...
POI THEO(R)IST
Pooh-Bah
2,364 posts
Location: austin,tx
2,364 posts
Location: austin,tx
Posted:
interesting. fasinating, stone, totally different than my variations . in my "school" kinds of variations within a move totally depends on your style. so does total number of divisions of moves within each move. different bodies, personalities, different styles. thanks for trying to help and stuff. what we are getting closer to here, is more of how we each personally differentiate one "move" from another "move".
to me, an n- beat is an n- beat, no matter where you are. there are different ways to do an n-beat, but if and only if you change one or more of the more basic moves that makes it up, like a cross follow or a follow or parallel weave. wraps make it a wrapped move, seperate. body carries, other stuff i do don't know how to say.
okay i just reread jephyre's post. the reason i didn't understand all this before is that i do a few more 7 beat weaves than that "ugly" one so i got confused thinking you meant twenty kinds of 7 beats (i certainly would love to find that many) and that definitely threw me off. beyond the fact that fact, it also seems y'all define the word move differently also, so even tho we are all doing the same movements i was calling them subspecies of 7 beats and you were calling them different species. to me a "n beat weave" is a more general term for a kind of weaves, not a specific move. means all the different 7 beat same direction moves, where the poi do 7 circles on one side and in the same direction of motion.
i think really the point i'm working out is how we each define the word "move" differently. so the "ugly" one may have twenty possible hand positions inside of it (i guess, i wouldn't really know, but i think i understand) are all those new weaves really new weaves? or just three beats, etc. with your arms crossed over? that is still too minor, to me, more like "that move inside the 7 beat louise". in other words i think of it as more like turning back and forth during a 7 beat, at different stages, or doing different hand positions for beats within a 7 beat. unless i totally didn't understand you which is possible. that would make just too much for me to want to count, for goodness sake i don't have a single planet in virgo.
richhee's and stone's systems are closer to mine, by breaking it down by timing, and patterns such as cross follow, follow, and parallel weave, etc. (although i do have other breakdowns). so, as in santana's handcuff wrap, in order to be a different move, it would have to be fundamentally different, like both poi wrapping around one hand (watch wrap?), or only one poi around one hand, which would change the timing of things, the follows, and the placenment of the hands. so many ways to classify the same thing! well this has racked my brain for far too long. the sun's here, i'm going to bed.
interesting. fasinating, stone, totally different than my variations . in my "school" kinds of variations within a move totally depends on your style. so does total number of divisions of moves within each move. different bodies, personalities, different styles. thanks for trying to help and stuff. what we are getting closer to here, is more of how we each personally differentiate one "move" from another "move".
to me, an n- beat is an n- beat, no matter where you are. there are different ways to do an n-beat, but if and only if you change one or more of the more basic moves that makes it up, like a cross follow or a follow or parallel weave. wraps make it a wrapped move, seperate. body carries, other stuff i do don't know how to say.
okay i just reread jephyre's post. the reason i didn't understand all this before is that i do a few more 7 beat weaves than that "ugly" one so i got confused thinking you meant twenty kinds of 7 beats (i certainly would love to find that many) and that definitely threw me off. beyond the fact that fact, it also seems y'all define the word move differently also, so even tho we are all doing the same movements i was calling them subspecies of 7 beats and you were calling them different species. to me a "n beat weave" is a more general term for a kind of weaves, not a specific move. means all the different 7 beat same direction moves, where the poi do 7 circles on one side and in the same direction of motion.
i think really the point i'm working out is how we each define the word "move" differently. so the "ugly" one may have twenty possible hand positions inside of it (i guess, i wouldn't really know, but i think i understand) are all those new weaves really new weaves? or just three beats, etc. with your arms crossed over? that is still too minor, to me, more like "that move inside the 7 beat louise". in other words i think of it as more like turning back and forth during a 7 beat, at different stages, or doing different hand positions for beats within a 7 beat. unless i totally didn't understand you which is possible. that would make just too much for me to want to count, for goodness sake i don't have a single planet in virgo.
richhee's and stone's systems are closer to mine, by breaking it down by timing, and patterns such as cross follow, follow, and parallel weave, etc. (although i do have other breakdowns). so, as in santana's handcuff wrap, in order to be a different move, it would have to be fundamentally different, like both poi wrapping around one hand (watch wrap?), or only one poi around one hand, which would change the timing of things, the follows, and the placenment of the hands. so many ways to classify the same thing! well this has racked my brain for far too long. the sun's here, i'm going to bed.
-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.
BRONZE Member
HOP librarian
1,841 posts
Location: Prague, Czech. Republic
HOP librarian
1,841 posts
Location: Prague, Czech. Republic
Posted:
Arashi-I agree with you that 7 beat is only one(in my stile) kind of weave(or mill or corkskrew) and 20 ways are only kinds of hand+body position... and mainly 7 beats is 3 and 4 beats in each side for me. If is possible to do 7 beats on one side I cant believe ..with wraps or loops OK,but without ?
Arashi-I agree with you that 7 beat is only one(in my stile) kind of weave(or mill or corkskrew) and 20 ways are only kinds of hand+body position... and mainly 7 beats is 3 and 4 beats in each side for me. If is possible to do 7 beats on one side I cant believe ..with wraps or loops OK,but without ?
POI THEO(R)IST
GOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
That was some kinda thing with the numbers, santanatwo. I don't do numbers much, but hey I think it makes sense. Great stuff
Some good discussion on weaves, wraps, wrap transitions, fountains, and stuff. Lots of good concepts and ideas floating up to the surface. Even the old club moves like the fountain, waistwrap, corkscrew? and windmill. Originally, these were probably 2 beat moves, done in wall plane. Don't knock em! Knife like moves in wall plane require "real" flexibility So, a few more thoughts on moves and stuff, continuing on from me last post
One-direction family: The weave is a "split-time" move. Weaves seem to start with the 2 beat, the first cross, but I find it confusing to call a 2 beat move, a weave. I just call them 2 beat moves. They may be basic, but they are the cheekbones you hang the rest of it off. I think they are also known as the cross and follow, cross follows, follow circles or follows?
I suspect the weaves start with the 3-beat, when you to get the over/under going. Weaves seem to be are about weaving extra beats into a pattern. Like ya can go from 3 to 5 beats, an n-beat? Change gears.
Ugly weaves. arashi said "same direction moves, where the poi do 7 circles on one side and in the same direction of motion". Yeah, I follow that, no crossing to the other side of the body. Like you do an ugly weave to the right, using a concertina (scissors) like motion. They deserve a category of their own.
arashi also asked about tri-weaves and trinity moves. Are they like fountains and waist wraps, when you change from a forward weave to backward weave (a cross-follow to a reverse cross-follow)?
Richee had a good point when he called the fountain a transition. The transition is going from a forward to a backward weave. But it's the change of direction, going back and forth that make the fountain. You use the transition to keep the changes going in one direction. Like in wall plane, that would mean a series of moves to the right, or a series of moves to the left, joined together by a transition. Very powerful move, balancing forward and backward weave.
Wraps are a series of moves in their own right, but they are also good for transitions. You can create a whole series of moves going from weave to b/f. They are a bit like the fountain in that regard. You can also sneak em in for a quick transition, perhaps like a half beat.
Lots of figuring out to do, before I trying counting
Hey Richee, are "the mills" a short name for "windmills" ?
Here is the club thread for snakes and club moves
That was some kinda thing with the numbers, santanatwo. I don't do numbers much, but hey I think it makes sense. Great stuff
Some good discussion on weaves, wraps, wrap transitions, fountains, and stuff. Lots of good concepts and ideas floating up to the surface. Even the old club moves like the fountain, waistwrap, corkscrew? and windmill. Originally, these were probably 2 beat moves, done in wall plane. Don't knock em! Knife like moves in wall plane require "real" flexibility So, a few more thoughts on moves and stuff, continuing on from me last post
One-direction family: The weave is a "split-time" move. Weaves seem to start with the 2 beat, the first cross, but I find it confusing to call a 2 beat move, a weave. I just call them 2 beat moves. They may be basic, but they are the cheekbones you hang the rest of it off. I think they are also known as the cross and follow, cross follows, follow circles or follows?
I suspect the weaves start with the 3-beat, when you to get the over/under going. Weaves seem to be are about weaving extra beats into a pattern. Like ya can go from 3 to 5 beats, an n-beat? Change gears.
Ugly weaves. arashi said "same direction moves, where the poi do 7 circles on one side and in the same direction of motion". Yeah, I follow that, no crossing to the other side of the body. Like you do an ugly weave to the right, using a concertina (scissors) like motion. They deserve a category of their own.
arashi also asked about tri-weaves and trinity moves. Are they like fountains and waist wraps, when you change from a forward weave to backward weave (a cross-follow to a reverse cross-follow)?
Richee had a good point when he called the fountain a transition. The transition is going from a forward to a backward weave. But it's the change of direction, going back and forth that make the fountain. You use the transition to keep the changes going in one direction. Like in wall plane, that would mean a series of moves to the right, or a series of moves to the left, joined together by a transition. Very powerful move, balancing forward and backward weave.
Wraps are a series of moves in their own right, but they are also good for transitions. You can create a whole series of moves going from weave to b/f. They are a bit like the fountain in that regard. You can also sneak em in for a quick transition, perhaps like a half beat.
Lots of figuring out to do, before I trying counting
Hey Richee, are "the mills" a short name for "windmills" ?
Here is the club thread for snakes and club moves
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
Pooh-Bah
2,364 posts
Location: austin,tx
2,364 posts
Location: austin,tx
Posted:
ahh, but this is all so far still chartered territory. mapped and flat. that's all the stuff i had to figure out, and it's good that we're writing it down for people like me, that need a vocabulary translation to see. but i have a different style, and those words are for your style, not mine, so for instance this trinity thing...
yes if i want i can do waistwraps in a tight wall plane which is built off of the square, dividing a circle around the body into four or two (90 and 180 degree turns). i can also divide the circle by three, doing all moves at 120 degree intervals, or a big triangle around your body. or whatever. waistwraps(trinity) can do this. great for dancing when the song is in 6 or 3, or if you're really on top of it, you can dance in 7, by doing four beats in regular(bfly) and a trinity in the same measure. now, go ahead, try dancing to Tool or indian music that isn't in 8 measure and just see if your nipples stay soft. i think not, friend . maybe it's just me, but i find joy in that, i'm a drummer too so i could see that being just a me thing. there's really cool stuff in there once you "get out of the box" (literally in this sense). that's just one example. 6, some 7, 8(the hardest spider move IMHO, just a tekkie move, like jedi louise), 9 , infinite beat, "ultraweave", cross weaves are outside what i know of your style's vocabulary too. but they are all there for the finding. i'm just another guy that's been messing around for a while, all this stuff unfolds to _anyone_ with time, truly, and i have struggled with the implications of teaching stuff that is WAY more fun and fulfilling to discover for onesself. "if you didn't know about this, forget what you just read!!!" the complete joy, excitement, and surprise in finding all the fractals and fractions (yes, bender, bene gesserite has found the 7.2 beat weave) is what has kept me passionate about chains. that and the chicks j/k. that's why i usually just help people that have questions about the five beat or whatever. that's why i wanted to understand your styles. plus as i said i am considering writing a "tao of jeet kune do" book for chains(poi), and it helps to know what dogmas are there before they can be broken down. there are basic patterns that can be practiced that would make the fractals start to unfold with every mistake that is payed attention to. now the transitions... fountain to me is a pattern, like a waistwrap is a pattern. but not a move. transitions are cool ways to put two moves together, like long arm forward bfly to btb left wall plane bfly. go to right btb wall plane from there, and we have a pattern, like a cousin to btb bfly waistwrap. at least that's the way i see it.]
{edit: man this thing had a lot of typos . i keep doing these posts in a sleep deprived stupor}
[ 14. December 2002, 15:42: Message edited by: arashi ]
ahh, but this is all so far still chartered territory. mapped and flat. that's all the stuff i had to figure out, and it's good that we're writing it down for people like me, that need a vocabulary translation to see. but i have a different style, and those words are for your style, not mine, so for instance this trinity thing...
yes if i want i can do waistwraps in a tight wall plane which is built off of the square, dividing a circle around the body into four or two (90 and 180 degree turns). i can also divide the circle by three, doing all moves at 120 degree intervals, or a big triangle around your body. or whatever. waistwraps(trinity) can do this. great for dancing when the song is in 6 or 3, or if you're really on top of it, you can dance in 7, by doing four beats in regular(bfly) and a trinity in the same measure. now, go ahead, try dancing to Tool or indian music that isn't in 8 measure and just see if your nipples stay soft. i think not, friend . maybe it's just me, but i find joy in that, i'm a drummer too so i could see that being just a me thing. there's really cool stuff in there once you "get out of the box" (literally in this sense). that's just one example. 6, some 7, 8(the hardest spider move IMHO, just a tekkie move, like jedi louise), 9 , infinite beat, "ultraweave", cross weaves are outside what i know of your style's vocabulary too. but they are all there for the finding. i'm just another guy that's been messing around for a while, all this stuff unfolds to _anyone_ with time, truly, and i have struggled with the implications of teaching stuff that is WAY more fun and fulfilling to discover for onesself. "if you didn't know about this, forget what you just read!!!" the complete joy, excitement, and surprise in finding all the fractals and fractions (yes, bender, bene gesserite has found the 7.2 beat weave) is what has kept me passionate about chains. that and the chicks j/k. that's why i usually just help people that have questions about the five beat or whatever. that's why i wanted to understand your styles. plus as i said i am considering writing a "tao of jeet kune do" book for chains(poi), and it helps to know what dogmas are there before they can be broken down. there are basic patterns that can be practiced that would make the fractals start to unfold with every mistake that is payed attention to. now the transitions... fountain to me is a pattern, like a waistwrap is a pattern. but not a move. transitions are cool ways to put two moves together, like long arm forward bfly to btb left wall plane bfly. go to right btb wall plane from there, and we have a pattern, like a cousin to btb bfly waistwrap. at least that's the way i see it.]
{edit: man this thing had a lot of typos . i keep doing these posts in a sleep deprived stupor}
[ 14. December 2002, 15:42: Message edited by: arashi ]
-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.
BRONZE Member
Lambretta Fanatic
4,997 posts
Location: United Kingdom
Lambretta Fanatic
4,997 posts
Location: United Kingdom
Posted:
man i need a week to catch up with this thread.
man i need a week to catch up with this thread.
GOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
I enjoyed reading your post arashi. There is much truth in what you say, as well as wisdom and more than a few good ideas. So, why not write it down, and do a "tao of jeet kune do" book for chains (poi).
dogmatic! Had to think about that one. Yeah, you are right. We tend to get a little dogmatic. Some of that comes from the learning process. But you also a have to open up, and walk through the doors as well. That b/f to weave stuff was helpful. There's a lot to discover, with much fun and enjoyment to be had in the process For me, all the tricks disappear when I hear the drumming (or harpsichord, or pipes or me new "tool" cd)
I enjoyed reading your post arashi. There is much truth in what you say, as well as wisdom and more than a few good ideas. So, why not write it down, and do a "tao of jeet kune do" book for chains (poi).
dogmatic! Had to think about that one. Yeah, you are right. We tend to get a little dogmatic. Some of that comes from the learning process. But you also a have to open up, and walk through the doors as well. That b/f to weave stuff was helpful. There's a lot to discover, with much fun and enjoyment to be had in the process For me, all the tricks disappear when I hear the drumming (or harpsichord, or pipes or me new "tool" cd)
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
Pooh-Bah
2,364 posts
Location: austin,tx
2,364 posts
Location: austin,tx
Posted:
thanks for the encouragement. still struggling with the ramifications of doing it tho. man first thing i'd have to do is get one of those mini recorders, and just let somebody else that can actually type write it. pecking at the board like this (peck peck peck) sure does take up a lot of time.
so how many of us taught ourselves, and how many learned from this site, or other places? i'd like to know what other kinds of variations there are out there from the main grid.
is anyone here that was taught more comlicated stuff by someone else right off the bat, but has been doing it for a few years? how has that affected your ability to discover moves for yourself? is it even noticeable?
thanks for the encouragement. still struggling with the ramifications of doing it tho. man first thing i'd have to do is get one of those mini recorders, and just let somebody else that can actually type write it. pecking at the board like this (peck peck peck) sure does take up a lot of time.
so how many of us taught ourselves, and how many learned from this site, or other places? i'd like to know what other kinds of variations there are out there from the main grid.
is anyone here that was taught more comlicated stuff by someone else right off the bat, but has been doing it for a few years? how has that affected your ability to discover moves for yourself? is it even noticeable?
-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.
BRONZE Member
HOP librarian
1,841 posts
Location: Prague, Czech. Republic
HOP librarian
1,841 posts
Location: Prague, Czech. Republic
Posted:
(Stone)Yes, mill is shortcut of wind-mill
I think your description stile is close to mine,but everybody have own stile of twirling. My stile is very strict.All moves and transitions I do in one wall plane and my position is only sideward or front to peoples.Not at all, but I try to do it so. When I began with Poi I met pretty girl from California,she teached me TTN and doesnt know as many tricks as I knew,but she twirl 5 years and was to perform it very fair. I never met her again,but the most important think that she learned me was that isnt needs to knew many tricks,but how I can open myself to others. New tricks brings me new ways to express how I fell.And do a fire with really enrgic music what else I could wish.Be absolutly free...that why I do it ...
I begin to learn Poi evewrybody who want .In our coutry this art become very famous,but a lot of beginners I knew or dont havent time to understand more.They want new and new tricks,the most difficult.They train them every day still not satisfed and when they dont find other unbelievable trick their interest fell down. How could it happen???
(Stone)Yes, mill is shortcut of wind-mill
I think your description stile is close to mine,but everybody have own stile of twirling. My stile is very strict.All moves and transitions I do in one wall plane and my position is only sideward or front to peoples.Not at all, but I try to do it so. When I began with Poi I met pretty girl from California,she teached me TTN and doesnt know as many tricks as I knew,but she twirl 5 years and was to perform it very fair. I never met her again,but the most important think that she learned me was that isnt needs to knew many tricks,but how I can open myself to others. New tricks brings me new ways to express how I fell.And do a fire with really enrgic music what else I could wish.Be absolutly free...that why I do it ...
I begin to learn Poi evewrybody who want .In our coutry this art become very famous,but a lot of beginners I knew or dont havent time to understand more.They want new and new tricks,the most difficult.They train them every day still not satisfed and when they dont find other unbelievable trick their interest fell down. How could it happen???
POI THEO(R)IST
Pooh-Bah
2,364 posts
Location: austin,tx
2,364 posts
Location: austin,tx
Posted:
wow i just realised that i mixed up stone and santanatwo 3 posts post earlier. i said,
interesting. fascinating, stone, totally different than my variations . i meant to say that to santana. then to make things more confusing i got it right later in the post; when i mentioned stone's name again i meant stone. it's probably nothing, but i hope i didn't alienate santana, we seem to have lost him awhile ago .
richee, i see that happen as well. some people go into poi just because they want to try the tricks, and they just get bored with it after they run up against the skill plateau and have to start repeating the moves. that's cool, learning the tricks is fun, and it helps people appreciate the skill involved. the moves are finite, especially with a limited plane control. if novice people jump to trying to do all the cool tricks, they miss the real fun which is to be in your body and flow and dance and express yourself. if you spend time doing that, then the tricks come naturally, because the poi are already extensions of your hand. not that i'm not a tekkie. i am. i mean here i am talking in a thread about the definition of a move, how nerdy is that? (<~ nerd)
wow i just realised that i mixed up stone and santanatwo 3 posts post earlier. i said,
interesting. fascinating, stone, totally different than my variations . i meant to say that to santana. then to make things more confusing i got it right later in the post; when i mentioned stone's name again i meant stone. it's probably nothing, but i hope i didn't alienate santana, we seem to have lost him awhile ago .
richee, i see that happen as well. some people go into poi just because they want to try the tricks, and they just get bored with it after they run up against the skill plateau and have to start repeating the moves. that's cool, learning the tricks is fun, and it helps people appreciate the skill involved. the moves are finite, especially with a limited plane control. if novice people jump to trying to do all the cool tricks, they miss the real fun which is to be in your body and flow and dance and express yourself. if you spend time doing that, then the tricks come naturally, because the poi are already extensions of your hand. not that i'm not a tekkie. i am. i mean here i am talking in a thread about the definition of a move, how nerdy is that? (<~ nerd)
-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.
BRONZE Member
HOP librarian
1,841 posts
Location: Prague, Czech. Republic
HOP librarian
1,841 posts
Location: Prague, Czech. Republic
Posted:
Arashi-It isnt anywise common with this thread.
what matter?
Arashi-It isnt anywise common with this thread.
what matter?
POI THEO(R)IST
GOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
I understood arashi, but it was good that you clarified the names
Richee, the mills thanks. I practice wall plane to loosen the whole body, and for coordination. Are you interested in club swinging? Fire dancing and staff have been popular in australia for while, but not as many people fire-dance these days
Cheers
I understood arashi, but it was good that you clarified the names
Richee, the mills thanks. I practice wall plane to loosen the whole body, and for coordination. Are you interested in club swinging? Fire dancing and staff have been popular in australia for while, but not as many people fire-dance these days
Cheers
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
BRONZE Member
HOP librarian
1,841 posts
Location: Prague, Czech. Republic
HOP librarian
1,841 posts
Location: Prague, Czech. Republic
Posted:
Stone- I like to see someone do club swinging well.I try it a lot of time,its very very flexible stuff(many nice tricks arent possible with Poi I think),but Poi are deeply rooted in my heart,no one dont belive I do it more than 2 years.I can live without them its my life style and with fire ..isnt better thing I could imagine .
Fire dancing isn popular,why?What happen?
Stone- I like to see someone do club swinging well.I try it a lot of time,its very very flexible stuff(many nice tricks arent possible with Poi I think),but Poi are deeply rooted in my heart,no one dont belive I do it more than 2 years.I can live without them its my life style and with fire ..isnt better thing I could imagine .
Fire dancing isn popular,why?What happen?
POI THEO(R)IST
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