Forums > Beginner Poi Moves > Weave directly into butterfly without wraps

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flid
BRONZE Member since Aug 2002

flid

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Warwickshire, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3136
Posted:Any tips? I got a method of doing the opposite (butterfly into forwards weave), but it's really tight and I severly doubt i could use the same method in reverse.

As all my moves are either weave family or butterfly family based, transitioning between the 2 using a couple of beats just at either side whilst I move from split time to same time really breaks the fluidity of my performances. I'd really like to be able to move between the 2 at will without anyone noticing.

Thanks


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Flynt
SILVER Member since May 2002

Flynt

Intrepid Penguin
Location: , Australia

Total posts: 5635
Posted:my advice would be:

first, post this in the poi moves section, you'll get alot more answers

second, try slowing it down, and going into thread the needle (r) then butterfly (r)! should look spiffy!


Currently on the right side up of the world.

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:Well, you sort of can't, by definition, transition THAT easily... BUT you can transition from weave to corkscrew... then with a strong jerk of the arms get into a butterfly much easier than from a standard weave. Because the poi are each only changing planes by 90 degrees, rather than one poi by 180 degrees.

I usually do it on the bottom beat of a corkscrew into a normal buttefly with maybe a sloppy beat in between...

And what's wrong with wraps? Many can be done subtlely anyway.


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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Cantus
SILVER Member since Jul 2001

Cantus

Tantamount to fatuity
Location: Down the road, United Kingdom

Total posts: 15965
Posted:OK. I'm moving this into poi moves because you'll get more help (like Mistress Flynt said).

"I'll carry this....It's harder to spill a hat" - Chellybean
"...like a rabbit caught in a lighthouse?" - Chellybean

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IdubI


HoP Lurker
Location: Medway, Kent, UK

Total posts: 272
Posted:I think I found an amazingly easy way to do this

I know we're talking about weave to bvutterfly (or persumably vica versa) but bear with me

You see a Forward spin at the sides of your body can be turned into a Reverse Butterfly. Or Reverse side spin to a Forward Butterfly.

The easiest way I've found to practice this is to start with a butterfly and bring the poi out to the side of you, they're basically Figures of 8 from in front of you to the sides of you.

Now a side spin bears a remarkable resembalence to, <cheesymusic>Dun-Dun-duuuun</cheesymusic>, the weave, yes it does

Ok so you doing you weave you get the poi to either side of you, this takes up about breaks the weave in such a way that it doesn't show obviously and allows you to pull both poi into the butterfly plane/move.

I am the only person I know that does this so if anyone'd be kind enough to let me know if my rectum has hijack my vocal chords

Any questions either post here. PM or email me.

dub


*Oh, just for a minute,* my bed said.
"Don't lie to me," I grumbled.
*But you're so tired...*

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kin...

Total posts: 7330
Posted:quote:Originally posted by dub:
Ok so you doing you weave you get the poi to either side of you, this takes up about breaks the weave in such a way that it doesn't show obviously and allows you to pull both poi into the butterfly plane/move.can you clarify this bit for me please... do ya do this transition in one beat and if so, where does the change of plane begin (eg. when poi are at the top of their arcs)?

[ 14. November 2002, 23:43: Message edited by: coleman ]


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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IdubI


HoP Lurker
Location: Medway, Kent, UK

Total posts: 272
Posted:oops, ok sorry would have helped if I'd gotten a little more indepth I suppose

Yep, you pull the poi inwards at the top of the swing, this seems to hold true with both directions, not having a reflection to work with makes this a little vague.

Yep again takes place over 1 or 2 beats, 1 for the break and 1 pull the poi into the Butterfly(, although it may be the second half of the first beat?).

Err, other than that I think it works best with heavier slower poi, the lighter they are the messier it seems to feel to me.

Hope that clears it up a little any questions?


*Oh, just for a minute,* my bed said.
"Don't lie to me," I grumbled.
*But you're so tired...*

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kin...

Total posts: 7330
Posted:cheers dub - sounds like you've got that pretty tight.
i've never really got on with forced changes of plane - goes against my physics-based head.

i'd have to agree with nyc on this topic:

"And what's wrong with wraps? Many can be done subtlely anyway."

this is so true as wraps on the side not facing an audience become almost invisible.
the other big advantage of course is that wraps will not change the plane of the poi, meaning that if you are performing, the show will continue to face your audience instead of suddenly going all 'side-on'.


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Nic


member
Location: Cape Town, South Africa

Total posts: 18
Posted:I've got a really sweet way of doing this, gonna be HARD to explain though, will give a try anyway.

Start in reverse weave, you have to slow it down quite a bit as you need to bend the circle that the poi are making (only way i can think of describing, imagine the path of the poi as a metal ring, now bend it down the middle), so that when the poi are coming up and forward after bottom of curve they are curved out a bit, more toward a butterfly plane. This is a strange feeling and has to be perfected if you want to do this smoothly.

Once you got that down, get used to doing it with your hands together, barely seperating at all, this is to flip into butterfly hand-position smoothly, then as your right poi is comin up in first beat of weave on left side, flip it down in front of you in the butterfly plane, (this is why the 'ring' needs to be bent) do this with left hand at the same time (left hand poi should be approaching bottom of curve in process of changing from left to right side). One hand slows down in doing this to get the single time beat of the butterfly, dunno which though, and im sitting at work so cant go try it out and see. Doing this really slowly helps for this too.

Can also be done weave to split-time butterfly but is a little harder as hands are changing at different times.

Hope you guys understand this, buddy of mine made it up, we're the only two i know that do it. Feel free to ask questions.


Gooi nat, or don't gooi at all.*Nic*

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:I'm sure there are a few nice transitions floating around out there, but mostly I've been doing sloppy stalls, coz I don't know any better. Anyhow, this is pretty basic and similar to what dub suggested.

Butterfly to weave: I have my right hand on top for the regular (inward ) butterfly, so to get the forward weave, I let my right hand go under my left hand (on the left side) and I'm in a forward weave. To get back to the butterfly I just separate the chains on the left hand side by taking my right hand back to the right hand side, when it’s on top, and sacrifice a beat. Probably better in split-time. Yeah, if that makes sense

Here's a tip (err concept). In wall plane, instead of doing the lower fountain, do a weave on one side of the body and try crossing into a butterfly on the other. Also try taking one hand/poi overhead, for the transition. Did you see the
Butterfly Crossflow Thing, thread


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:True coleman. I've never thought of distinguishing my wraps as "for the audience" and "hidden from the audience" but that is true. Most of my wraps are big "Hey look at me I'm wrapping!" sequences but it's nice to throw in a slick ankle wrap to go from butterfly to weave type moves. I guess it's kinda like any performance where you can either "hit" a certain line/move/note or throw it away slyly to accentuate something else. I'll have to think of that more when wrapping: Which are moves to be displayed and which are purely functional directional changes. Good ideas, good ideas...

Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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DJ Dantana
BRONZE Member since Aug 2001

veteran
Location: Stillwater, Ok. USA

Total posts: 1495
Posted:dud is rght, you can switch from a forward swing to a reverse butterfly in one half of a beat. it looks cool too. a guy on col2 (tribe of the burning sock) does it. you can also go into a split time reverese butterfly from a forward weave in 1/2 a beat. try it with one poi at first to see what we mean.

I like a move jedi white came up with. do a forward 5 beat weave, then as the right poi goes under your right arm, wrap it on your arm and turn 90 degrees to the left into a forward butterfly. the move is almost invisable in it's fluidity...

joe derry goes from a butterfly to a corkscrew in one half a beat too.


we eat and we drink and we smoke and we try!

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Nic


member
Location: Cape Town, South Africa

Total posts: 18
Posted:Santanatwo:
In reference to the Butterfly to Corckscrew Jo Derry does. I got this right a while ago and have found that the same "principle" (if you want to call it that) can be applied in going from butterfly to reverse BTB weave (keep left hand still and swing right hand around body while turning 180 degrees to right then do the switch from butterfly to weave behind your back the same way its done by Jo in his video). Its also got that weird 'cant quite focus on whats happening' fluidity of the butterfly to corckscrew Jo Derry does. Its a nice move. Difficult not to hit your shoulders though.


Gooi nat, or don't gooi at all.*Nic*

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:This is really just an explanation of me last post on how to go from a 3-beat weave to butterfly and visa versa. Try this with clubs, wooden spoons or something solid first.

For the lower fountain you have to un-cross and re-cross to get the change of direction. Ok, if do the second beat in front of the body (the bit where you un-cross and re-cross to go from forward to the reverse weave) then you can quite easily slip into a butterfly when you un-cross. Simple, huh? To get back to the fwd weave, I take my right hand under my left, on the left hand side; but you could just as easily go into the reverse weave on the other side.

Also, if ya do the waist-wrap, then I reckon the "carry" offers a good opportunity to cross into the butterfly. Wot do ya reckon? Am I "off-me-tree" or wot?

Cheers


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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flid
BRONZE Member since Aug 2002

flid

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Warwickshire, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3136
Posted:First of all, before I answer any of the posts, I'd just like to say that poi is definately a SUMMER hobby, it's literally freezing out there so I haven't had a good chance to try out all the suggestions offered yet (technically speaking I'm not sure doing it wearing a tshirt, shorts and with wet hands helps, but heh :-))

Thanks for all your replies and for moving the post. I haven't had a chance to try nic or dub's methods yet, but I have tried stone's method of butterfly to forwards weave and after about 30 seconds of practice it works remarkably well - thankyou! As for the other direction, I can see what you are getting at, but can you just clarify which direction you are turning in? That is, if you are doing the forwards weave, when you move to backwards via lower fountain, do you move 180 degrees clockwise or anti? Moving anti clockwise I'm pretty confident, I can move into windmill/corkscrew/chaing the sun without a second thought, but doing the same in the opposite direction and I find myself gritting my teeth and hoping I don't get a concussion!

The way I was going into weave from butterfly resulted in the forwards weave at your right hand side instead of infront of you, which is good if you want to move almost straight into the fountain (with the audience infront of the butterfly/windmill beat of the fountain), but it's a lot more dangerous for my malcoordinated body to perform than the method you describe.

As for wraps, i have nothing against them and they look pretty cool. However I don't know how to do any, and if I learn some I'd still like to practice them for a good couple of months or so until I feel confident enough to try them with fire, where as a transition I can get going well and use in a week.

I would like to learn some wraps, but to me they look like the most dangerous thing possible to do with fire, so I'm concentrating on lots of moves and transitions for the time being. When I can do loads of moves and stuff and am starting to get bored, then I'll move onto madder things like wraps and wire wool (not together!)

Thanks again for your help, I'll try the other suggestions the next time I'm wearing some trousers! Any suggestions for winter hobbies?


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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:quote:Can you just clarify which direction you are turning in?flid, I wasn't turning. I mostly do the lower fountain in wall plane. Think me previous description needs a bit more work, anyhow. But it's there.

First rule of poi. Learn everything both ways, and in both directions.

Wraps are cool. And, hey BIG secret, most are a lot easier that they look. A good one to go from b/f to weave and visa versa, is a forearm wrap. Start by doing a b/f in front, then wrap one poi on ya forearm, and turn into a weave. Wrap a poi on the forearm to get back to the b/f.

"Any suggestions for winter hobbies?" Inside poi. Just remove all the light fittings and watch the horizontal moves hehehe contact juggling, pen manipulation, juggling. Dunno, they all cause damage.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:I'm up for another go at this one.

It could be rubbish, but see wot ya reckon. No big deal, just trying a few ideas. I think the concept is: over-under-b/f, or over-under-under-b/f, say with the right hand when doing forward weaves.

Ok, ya got a 3-beat weave: 2 on the open one on the cross. Think about splitting them up into individual beats i.e. one left - one in the centre - one on the right.

Backwards weave to butterfly

With a backward weave on the left side: right hand goes under left hand, left hand goes under right hand as hands move to the center, stall the right hand slightly and it will go on top for a b/f.

With a backward weave on the right side the left hand goes on top for the b/f.

Forwards weave to butterfly

With a forwards weave on left side. Right hand goes over, then under the left hand. Cross to the right side. Right goes under the left hand, slight stall of left hand, for a right-over-left b/f in centre.

From a forwards weave on the left side, the left hand should go on top for the b/f.

From a forwards weave on the left. Do the over with the right, and instead of going under, move to centre for a right over left b/f. Think ya need a bit of a stall with the left hand.

Bit dodgy hey?

Butterfly to forwards weave

From a right over left b/f in front, just take the right under the left to go into a forward weave. Try other way.

It probably doesn't make sense, but ya get that. Trust me the transitions are there, even if I can't explain em (or necessarily do em properly).

Cheers


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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flid
BRONZE Member since Aug 2002

flid

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Warwickshire, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3136
Posted:thanks for your clarication, i'll give it a try over the next few days. Had a quick go at forwards weave to butterfly and can see what you're stabbing at (just about), but i think it needs a lot of practise to be fluid. I can do butterfly to forwards weave no problem now.

To get from weaves to butterfly moves i normally go out of the weave and strech out my arms as I do so, then as the left hits the bottom let it hit my foot so it goes into reverse. At this point i'm doing "one each way", so moving into butterfly is easy. It's not exactly "direct" as I'd like to do ideally, but adds a bit of flare.

I've been working on btb stuff lately when i've ventured out into the cold. Tonight I can finally do btb weave for more than a couple of seconds, so i'm feeling smug about that at the moment


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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:flid, ya can't beat a wrap for a bit of show, hey. Great to hear ya got the btb, takes a lot of practice.

Hope my comments helped with your transitions, not sure that they are all that correct. Anyhow, just try going for it, and you are bound to find a way. And just in case you missed it, arashi posted a very good transition in the jedi set thread.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Richee
BRONZE Member since Jan 2002

HOP librarian
Location: Prague, Czech. Republic

Total posts: 1841
Posted:Split time forward BF infront to forward weave or corkscrew(may wasnt mentioned): split time forward BF then really quick turn left or righ to get to ....F.W. or C.

POI THEO(R)IST

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Richee, yeah split-time for sure, good point. And then as is TTN. Lots of things to try


These will keep you busy, flid


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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flid
BRONZE Member since Aug 2002

flid

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Warwickshire, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3136
Posted:in reply to my own post, for the purpose of completness and benefit of anyone looking at this thread in the future, a simple way of weave into butterfly is this:

From standard 3 beat forwards weave, when the left hand comes over the right hand, so the right hand poi is swinging at the left and the left hand poi swinging at the right, instead of carrying on the weave motion keep the poi swinging as they are (crossed over your body). This is essentially the butterfly, just out of alignment a bit. Over a couple of beats you can straighten it out, and from the front it looks like th butterfly anyway.

I should really have figured this out long ago, after all i learn't butterly by doing a forwards cross-over and straightening it out, but alas its always the obvious things which manage to evade our (or my at least) thinking. The opposite direction (butterfly to weave) is the opposite of this, and has been discussed previously in this thread.


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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Weave -->Forward Swing-->Butterfly. If you pull it off right, you don't even notice the forward swing.

-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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BlackFireJack


member
Location: Bergen , Norway

Total posts: 167
Posted:A lot of nice stuff to try out her....Good work......here's what i do by the way....dont know if they're explained before but anyway....

------weave to butterfly----
1. start with a forward 3beat (with some distance to your hands in front of you) and just when the arms are crossing your body you gently pull your hands towars your body abit. So what you do is going from 'split time' to 'even time' (?) and use that to turn the pois to a BF...... This can also be used the other way around, with making the BF more 45 degrees on the side of your body so its smother to go into a weave.... 90 degrees on two poi's instead of 180 on one sort of thing
2. I also go from a windmill to BF on the sides of me....the you can choose a normal or reverse BF. (like you would go from a windmill to a weave)
3. If you swing the poi's backwards at the side of your body at 'even time', and then let them swing on the inside of your arms , and put your hands together just when the pois have passed your arms....this is a nice trick, if it's done right, cause it looks like the poi's meet right infront of your chest and stops for a small second...
4. BTB reverse weave to reverse BF.....dont know how to explain this .....but it's like when you go from a BTB reverse weave to a weave infront of your body....exept that you move your hands into a reverse BF....
5. Same as 4. but now the whole thing is in the other direction......(forwards yepp)

------butterfly to weave----
1. BF to corkscrew (any beat) is explained I think...
2. BF to windmill....If you hold a BF infront of your head and let your left hand poi swing horizontal over your head....you can easily go to a windmill
3. BF to forward/reverse weave (any beat) on the side of tha body..... Make the Bf a tad more horizontal (still a normal BF though) the you can turn your hands (thumbs) downwards and do a fully horisontal BF in front of your feet..and from there you got a option...you can go to weaves on your side or to a horizontal BF over your head

I'm really bad at explaining moves so bare with me eey Is'nt there anyone out there that can make a small program or some computer thing where you can illustrate all the moves?? It's hard to explain and even harder to understand sometimes....


I like Fire.. :)

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flid
BRONZE Member since Aug 2002

flid

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Warwickshire, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3136
Posted:thanks for your explanations!

I have considered doing a fully 3d fly around type human doing poi to teach moves. It'd also be pretty neat for when you have an idea about a move - let a computer generated model do it instead of you doing it and injuring yourself!

Quite a lot of coding thou, and I got more interesting projects going on. As far as 3d rendered animations go, a competant user of a program like Maya or Blender should be able to knock up some movie clips.


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Pali
GOLD Member since Jan 2003

Pali

journeyman
Location: Ubud, Bali, Indonesia

Total posts: 84
Posted:All of my transitions between butterfly and weave moves were discovered on accident. Say I'm standing there all into my mexican wave and I do a half-turn to the right ... suddenly I'm in a forward weave!

These things came to me after I ceased only practicing moves and began practicing flow - something I really didn't think of until after performing. I got out there and was like: "Hey, wait! I know all these cool moves but I don't know how to string them together! ARGG!"

So, yeah - practice your moves, but remember to move between them and add a little of yourself. Popping in a good cd and going to town is a great way of doing this.



Genuineness only thrives in the dark -- like celery.

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The Dragon


member
Location: independence, ky 41051

Total posts: 13
Posted:well, like the others said... you could gradually transition into it, because of the hand motions without stalling it would be (and i say this with relative confidence) impossible to do without smackin yourself with the sticks.

ASCEND!Fire dance with me!let me be the most liscentious martyr!SEAR ME!

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MillenniuM
PLATINUM Member since Jul 2003

MillenniuM

Hyperloops suck
Location: , USA

Total posts: 595
Posted:Stone - Thank you very much for your post with the bolded "______ to _____" headings. That was the best explanation of this topic I could have hoped for, and I've always been looking for a good way to go from forward weave to butterfly... I read what you wrote, went outside and nailed it first time. My new favourite: Forwards 5 beat weave to butterfly to angelwings to mexican wave to butterfly to 5 beat weave. Much simpler than it looks in writing, it comes extremely naturally and I always get a big "Ooooooooh!" from the crowd when I do it.

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[Nx?]
BRONZE Member since Nov 2001

[Nx?]

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both

Total posts: 3749
Posted:yo,

well, its not quite a non-wrap, well its a catch, but it sooo sweet i gotta post it...

onehanded butterfly

catch one poi, just below the head, reverse into....

one handed cross follow!

da dahhh! :proud:

simple idea, notin new, but i love it

T


This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti

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DeepSoulSheep
GOLD Member since Sep 2002

DeepSoulSheep

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Berlin, Ireland

Total posts: 2617
Posted:I haven't tried to go into weave from this but there is a nice transition from butterfly waistwrap to corkscrew. PK and Bluecat do it in how to. I'm sure coleman knows what time it's at .

I live in a world of infinite possibilities.

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kin...

Total posts: 7330
Posted:@ about 1:40...?

it goes back the other way too (corkscrew to bf ww) but that's not on the video

of course if you really wanna get silly go from bf to weave using the move rob does @ 4:18 - try that one the other way!


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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