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Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted:So, this is going to be sheer opinionated commentary here but....I have noticed lately, not only on this board but in email discussions, icq discussions and with some of the people I have met that there seems to be this "look at my scar" mentality as if we were comparing combat wounds. Now, I realise the bumps and bruises and the occassional singe are par for the course but why brag about them? I understand sharing wounds so that others might not make the same mistake...ie: when you toss the staff try to keep a good eye on it so that it doesn't bop you in the head, don't blow into the wind type things. However the "And I got the coolest scar from 50 stitches cause my comet poi broke open my juggular" is really assinine. I know there are viable reasons for injury (taking the injury so an idiot cutting through my performance space wouldn't, bad directions for equipment making, etc). Things go wrong occassionally, fine, but I have been reading about people who are just playing and attempt something they are not ready for or who are trying to impress someone and they fall into an injury, or sometimes it is just sheer irresponsibility. Injury is nothing to boast about. You are not taking a bullet for your country (which I still think is stupid) which there is at least honor in.I am, as are most at least paying people, far more impressed with the people who do not have a body full of burn/slash scars than those who do. It just seems that a body full of scars represents an ineptitude (no I am not saying you are inept, I am saying that is how it appears when saying "and I got this trying to impress a chick with my stick). I don't get it and I realise maybe it's just me. I am not the pissing contest type. I just had to say my peace since this has been on my mind a fair bit lately.
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------------------Pele Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir...http://www.pyromorph.com


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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chicazul
member
Location: BC, Canada
Member Since: 4th Jul 2001
Total posts: 16
Posted:It is my observation that scar-sharing stories are extremely popular even in everyday life. I'm guilty of doing this myself. ("And here's one I got when I almost cut off my finger with a butcher knife....") Weird kind of bonding moment among friends. It's immature, sure, but I don't think it's going to stop. People do it for the same reason they stop to stare at car accidents. It's gruesome, but somehow fascinating all the same--and for the story teller it's that extra bit of attention. ("Wow, you actually saw the bone?")

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Cantus
Cantus

Tantamount to fatuity
Location: Down the road
Member Since: 30th Jul 2001
Total posts: 15965
Posted:I think it's one of those race memory things. You know like our ancestors, in the dim and distant, had scarification and rites of passage etc. And i think, on some subconcious level, this ebbs into our minds making us feel the need to flaunt our scars and wounds. As if to say "I am a great warrior! See my scars. How brave I am." I have to hold my hands up at this point and say that i did also add my litany of wounding on one of these aorementioned threads. And, since reading this thread I've been trying in my mind to justify this action. I can't. Perhaps it was my attempt to be part of this fire clan of which you are all members. . .It was certainly one of my first posts. . . .But I am not as a rule someone who boasts about things. Prefering instead to allow my actions to speak for me. I dont know. I'm going to ponder this for a while and get back to you. ------------------C@ntus

"I'll carry this....It's harder to spill a hat" - Chellybean
"...like a rabbit caught in a lighthouse?" - Chellybean

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flash fire
flash fire

Sporadically Prodigal
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Member Since: 25th Jan 2001
Total posts: 2758
Posted:This is indeed very strange. Myself and my crew abhorr burns. To have a burn means that you f$&ked up somehow. This is certainly not something to be proud of! Surely the most proficient firedancers are those with the fewest injuries to themselves?Maybe it's a male thing. I really don't mean that as a sexist remark, but seriously - maybe this boasting is primarily gender specific, relating back to what Cantus said.

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Knagi
member
Location: Brunswick, Ohio
Member Since: 28th Jun 2001
Total posts: 397
Posted:It not just purely male. It's a bonding thing some ppl just do it. It brings us closer to our firebrotheren. However befor reading this I have to say I never thought about it as bragin about a Fubar :P

We are all in the cosmic movie. That means the day you die you watch your whole life repeating for eternity. So you'd better have some good things happen in there and have a fitting climax. --Jim MorrisonIt's going to come from a direction you didn't predict at a moment of chaos which you didn't see coming. -- NYC

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sandman
member
Location: Brighton, England
Member Since: 2nd Aug 2001
Total posts: 65
Posted:Pele's just jealous coz she's not covered in disfiguring scars
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Is it a male thing? I suppose it is a bit. But everyone likes recounting tales of injuries. At least it serves to remind people of what can go wrong. Reminds me of our old PE teacher's stories designed to make us respect the equipment. I'll never forget the 'javelin through scrotum' story *shudder*


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Peregrine
member
Location: Mystic, Ct. USA
Member Since: 12th Jan 2001
Total posts: 428
Posted:I like to show off my teeny tiny little spark scar as in "yes i spin fire regularly and this is the worst burn i have ever gotten and look how little it is"of course, burnt hair grows out eventually...Pere

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protozoa
member
Location: Baltimore, MD USA
Member Since: 2nd Feb 2001
Total posts: 148
Posted:I _am_ proud of my scars, and my little shortened/charred arm hairs the morning after I twirl. And yet AGAIN I'm going to bite when someone tries to deconstruct and belittle others for doing something they don't approve of and attempt to explain myself in the face of somebody's more-enlightened-than-thou attitude. I liken it to waking up in the morning, making love to somebody whose presense you really enjoy and then rushing off to work without showering cuz you're gonna be late. All day long you still smell that person on you, and you remember. You stand around at your job doing mundane things you do every day, and every once in a while an image or sensation from the morning flashes through your mind and you drift off for just a second and smile. It's a reminder of a wonderful thing and it's a kind of neat secret.It's not a macho thing. Fire Poi is something excellent. It's something I'm proud of. I did something slightly dangerous and very unconventional that I find a lot of mystery and excitement in. And I'm so happy to have these reminders of the wonderful things I do from time to time, especially lately as I go through a major life upheaval.The way I see it, I'd have to be pretty darn uptight to beat myself up over every mistake I make doing something I do for pure enjoyment anyway. And the scars I have don't come from grievious emergency-room injuries; they're little burns that didn't hurt much in the first place. So why would I associate _any_ negativity with them whatsoever? Poi is part of me, fire is part of me, and my scars are also part of me. It would be self-destructive and counterintuitive for me to force myself to despise them.I expect others have similar and genuinely positive emotions related to their scars, which is why we're proud to share them and their stories with each other. If you don't like it, as in all things, *ahem* KINDLY BUZZ OFF. There's enough ridiculous judgemental BS out there we each have to deal with all day long, personally I don't need that hassle here as well.Shame on you, Pele, and on you, Flash. You of all people ought to be setting an example of cooperation and open-mindedness. Could you please just live and let live already??
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Regards,-protie


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Pele'sWhippingBoy
member
Location: Rochester, NY, USA
Member Since: 19th Jun 2001
Total posts: 442
Posted:But are you boasting about your scars? It should seem that if you appreciate what they mean to you then that's fine. But the point of the original post is that the boasting/bragging about the size of or number of scars seems to be confusing to some of the members.You describe your burn scars less as mistakes while spinning and more of a decoration given while spinning. If you're proud of them then that is probably the answer that was being looked for. If we ask about a scar, then are you able to recall something positive that happened while spinning then? For some the recall is not a pleasant one and as such they may despise the scar. Pele's mention of someone else screwing up so she has a scar is a prime example of this.She, and others, seem concerned for the "my scar's bigger than your scar" mentality and if it continued then we'd have some problems keeping members. 1/2 would die from 1-upmanship and the other 1/2 would leave the board from reading about them.------------------"Except for that Mrs. Lincoln, How did you like the play?"Pyromorph - Let the fire change you

FYI: I am not Pele. If you wish to reply to me and use a short version of my name, use: PWB.

English? Who needs that? I'm never going to England. - Homer Jay Simpson

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protozoa
member
Location: Baltimore, MD USA
Member Since: 2nd Feb 2001
Total posts: 148
Posted:Sorry WhippingBoy, I don't buy it. I don't see one-upmanship when it comes to scars on this board. With moves, occasionally, and sometimes with 'my wick is bigger than yours' stuff. I've seen people share stories about their scars, and not feel ashamed or embarrassed about them, and that's as close as it gets. And that, in my view, is not objectionable at all. It might not be fascinating reading for some, but I could say the same about plenty of things on this board, and so likely could everyone. Do we all _have_ to have the same outlook and opinion on _everything_??And yeah, sure I boast about them when I'm in like-minded company, if feeling good while describing something is classified as boasting (as it seems to be wherever possible by some people, which is reprehensible), because of the reasons I stated already. In order for me to feel guilty about my scars I will have to internalize some kind of self-hatred, and I think Pele's done a horrible thing to try to make others feel as though they're less evolved or something because they don't do this.And people are at least as likely to leave the board through disgust of moralistic one-upmanship as they are of technical one-upmanship, don't you think?-protie

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Peregrine
member
Location: Mystic, Ct. USA
Member Since: 12th Jan 2001
Total posts: 428
Posted:allright thats it*packs up bags and leaves for various reasons*y'all know my email if you want it...Pere

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Pele'sWhippingBoy
member
Location: Rochester, NY, USA
Member Since: 19th Jun 2001
Total posts: 442
Posted:I found this as examples from the Battle Wounds thread. quote:BlackbirdI once got my fire poi wrapped around my wrist for about six seconds while going into a thread the needle, and got a 2 x 3 inch burn, patterned like the wick and the two screwheads. It looks cool I show it off to people... quote:shizN0Tworking out the mexican wave... tangled above my head and came down in my face. Tore open my eye ring. I was all sweaty (and not in a normal state of mind) it took me a while to realize I was wiping blood off my brow quote:pureenergySo like half way through the burn I decided to just start playing around a little and I was doing all kinds of crazy spins and whatnot, and somehow I managed to get one poi wrapped around my neck, where it promptly stuck and begin to sear away my neck flesh. Now i have a 2 inch burn on the side of my neck..going to make a great scarI bolded where I felt my point was going. These are the dangerous posts that were being mentioned. The fact that they are glad they had a mishap and got a scar is the confusing mentality. If it is not a one-upmanship is it merely a "I'll show you mine, you show me yours?" The scars are a part of the fire life. That's not being denied. The fact that they can be learned from is also not in dispute. However, when people are glad they got scarred from an accident and are happy about it, this is what the confusion is. Your answer about it being a memory is what we being looked for. In your case that's what the scar is. The explanation of that thinking is what was lacking before this thread.The confusion of this had another post: Newbies! FIRE SAFETY! where Peregrine was concerned for the safety and the switch in attitude towards a dangerous behavior.As for the one-upmanship? Either way probably drives people away.------------------"Except for that Mrs. Lincoln, How did you like the play?"Pyromorph - Let the fire change you

FYI: I am not Pele. If you wish to reply to me and use a short version of my name, use: PWB.

English? Who needs that? I'm never going to England. - Homer Jay Simpson

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Cantus
Cantus

Tantamount to fatuity
Location: Down the road
Member Since: 30th Jul 2001
Total posts: 15965
Posted:I had meant to mention it was possibly a male thing in my rant. Nay mind.I have to say that I have no scars from my art. All of the injuries I listed in the thread were practise realted and borne out of stupidity. I'd rather mildly injure myself practising and learn from it than take a stupid risk during a performance which could not only me but civilians as well . . .Just a thought . . .

"I'll carry this....It's harder to spill a hat" - Chellybean
"...like a rabbit caught in a lighthouse?" - Chellybean

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protozoa
member
Location: Baltimore, MD USA
Member Since: 2nd Feb 2001
Total posts: 148
Posted:Whipping Boy:"dangerous posts"? Surely you don't suggest that some weak-minded soul will read, on this board, that scarification is good here and then go burn themselves "to be cool"? This argument probably sounds familiar to those of us who've heard that heavy metal music makes teenagers commit suicide. Even if it does, good riddance to those spineless twerps who do it.I've just read the "Battle Wounds" thread, Whipping Boy, and it hardly serves your ends when taken in full context. Pele herself posted to that thread and described two f her injuries. As for the ones you quote,"It looks cool I show it off to people" is told by someone who is clearly more likely to prevent newbies from rushing into playing with fire than encourage them. As for the other two quotes you're taking them way out of context. ShizNOT's post is hardly bragging about anything. . if having blood run down your face sounds like a good time to you _you're_ the one with the problem, not him. "going to make a great scar.." don't make me laugh! I could say the same thing after cutting myself with a paring knife, which doesn't mean that I enjoy cutting myself, nor am I trying to prove that I'll have a better scar than anyone else who does the same thing.Here's my bottom line: who the hell else do we have to talk to about this stuff? Many poiers are isolated from each other geographically, but they have ideas to share and stories to tell. If people sharing stories on any poi-related topic bother you where else do you suggest they take place? This is a community of very diverse people with different outlooks and I wholeheartedly resent anyone suggesting that certain "types" of folks don't belong here, or that certain conversational topics are "too" edgy. If you don't like a thread, don't read it! If you have a problem with something someone says, or need clarification on some point, direct your reply to them under the same thread. If Pele's post was, as you suggest, a genuine attempt to understand, her message should have been added to the thread on Battle Wounds and asking the posters directly what their motivations were. I think our moderators would do well to exercise some moderation.-protie

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Ade
Are we there yet?
Location: australia
Member Since: 14th Mar 2001
Total posts: 1897
Posted:Just wonderng about scars etc, do those that get them and talk about them see them being akin to being tattooed, or the process of ritual scarification? Where there is a deep connection with the toy, and the scarification is like a rite of passage into the next level? Or akin to surviving the challenge of fire? Where preparation and focus of mind are just as important as the actual scaring? Or are you really just comparing superficial wounds, like a lot of boys and girls do?

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flash fire
flash fire

Sporadically Prodigal
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Member Since: 25th Jan 2001
Total posts: 2758
Posted:Protozoa,I can see your points and will ponder them for a while, but can I just ask what my being a moderator has to do with my personal opinions?When I agreed to become a moderator, I certainly didn't adopt any "universal Home of Poi mindset", nor did I intend to colour my posts beige.Pele and I have always been individually opinionated. Did people expect this to change?If you have a problem with the way the site is being moderated, as opposed to a problem with the opinions of those with "Moderator" next to thier name, I suggest you confer with the individual in question or even send an email to Malcolm.This site is for all of us and I'd like to think that if I've been unfair in any moderator type things people will pull me up on it, as they have done in the past. This is a learning experience for me and everyone's input is welcomed.

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Is it the Truth?
Is it Fair to all concerned?
Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?
If you can answer YES to these 4 questions then you may post a reply.

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protozoa
member
Location: Baltimore, MD USA
Member Since: 2nd Feb 2001
Total posts: 148
Posted:Flash:Please be as opinionated as you wish. My comment about moderators needing moderation was motivated by my frustration that this inappropriate thread was started _by_ a moderator, and was quickly seconded with a 'me too' sentiment by the only other moderator. Of course it might well be that you'd both be considerate enough to moderate yourselves when you feel it's called for. Do what you wish. I ask only that you endeavor to apply the same rules to yourselves that you do to everyone else.-protie

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Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted:Nice question Ade, and I had not thought of it as a "rite of passage" type thing. I have been witness to much of the boy/girl thing you mentioned, however, I am interested to see what comes of your question, if others can sift through all this other stuff and find it.
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------------------Pele Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir...http://www.pyromorph.com


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted:Protie..I read all of what you wrote, responded and didn't post it. I walked away and thought about it. So, now here I am, the last to step up. To save words, my points are going to be numbered out.A)This topic is not by any stretch inappropriate. It is a valid question, supported by the thoughtful answers of those before you came into it. This is something that stems from fire playing/performing and so therefore belongs here.B)I am a person before I am a moderator. You said that as moderators we should exercise moderation but then you said to feel free to have an opinion. Which is it Protie? Actually that is a rhetorical question. I intend to keep voicing my opinions. Would you like to know why? I AM one of those isolated individuals whose few connections with the fire/spinning world comes from this board. Everyone I have met is a direct result of this board. I am self taught. I sit here in my corner of the globe, stretching out to perform and occassionally meet others. I *AM* one of those people you feel I offended or am trying to disinclude.C)You said "I ask only that you endeavor to apply to yourselves the same rules as you do to everyone else." We do. Rule 1: Stay on Topic. Done in this thread.Rule 2: Respect not everyone will have the same opinion as you. I did, Protie. Did you? I don't think you did by your arguementative replies.Rule 3: Nope, this wasn't a personal message.Rule 4: Simple ad easy to read..no slang here.Rule 5: It is for everyone...and I would love to hear more responses to my original question.I also add politeness into this mix as much as I can, and my post was polite. I accused no one. I called no names. I made a commentary, which is how I introduced it, as to my opinion and asked for other's thoughts. I followed the rules.D) Please read my original post and read it well. I asked about scar boasting and comparing that I have noticed, not only on this board but in rl, email and ICQ. Obviously from the replies I am not the only one who has seen this. Huzzah for you that it does not exist in your corner of the globe, but your corner is small and is not the end all beat all. This "competition" exists whether you believe in it or not. I did not ask about the brush burns that are inevitable, nor of the practice and accident injuries that happen. I asked about the comparison of permanent scars borne of carelessness...attempting things unsafely and unwisely. Your metaphor was lovely and that is the types of answers I was aiming for, as well as Flash Fire's, chicazul,cantus, peregrine, knagi and sandman's...all of which were greatly appreciated.E)Again, do your reading before you comment please. Did you even read my post in the Battle Wounds thread? I laid no claims to permanent injuries, scars or the likes of. I described my swinging related pains as muscles aches from practice when I started. That does not by any stretch fit into this topic. Along those lines, because this applies to those not involved in that thread I began a new topic hoping to gain a thoughtful dialogue, which it started out being.F)"And I think Pele has done a horrible thing to try to make people feel as though they're less evolved or something because they don't do this." This is where i am most offended! I have ****never**** said that anyone should be ashamed of a scar. I have said that I view sharing them more as learning lessons and don't understand the bragging rights. The spinning we do, if done with knowledge, is not *that* dangerous. I never said anyone who has a scar is less of a spinner, or less of a person,or unwelcome here. I never said those who choose to brag are less human than I. That is *your* assumption Protie. I said I don't understand why bragging about a scar someone got from "trying to impress a chic with my stick" is actually impressive. I do this for a profession and the bookers/producers/directors and managers I know would not hire me if I had many visible scars. Where you embrace your injuries, I learn from mine and those who do not know the insides of what we do will not see them so lovingly. Since I make money at this, and since I have my agreement with Whipping Boy, scars aren't an option. Does this make me an elitist? No. It makes me more cautious and aware. My question stemmed from this. **YOU** took it personally and read things that were never written there. This has nothing to do with moral-one-upmanship, unless that is what you feel all of your arguing is accomplishing, that you are somehow better than the rest of us because you are more in touch with your burns. This is how ridiculous your accusations sound to me.G) Never once did anyone say anything about this leading to scarrification (except Ade's question) or such things. No one said those who spoke about their scars were unwelcome here. And you Protie, yourself decided to be the selective one by bidding good riddance to any who might be "weak minded twerps"..tsk, tsk. Perhaps because of their threshold for pain they might be able to add to the board. Remember this board is for everyone. And Protie, for the record...I get email's going "Pele, I was spinning and nailed myself, I just got back from the emergency room. I can't wait to meet you so I can show you my scar." Would you concider this to be a weak minded twerp? I don't. I explain my point of view to the person and talk with him/her about it. These types are the spirits which I address, and those who have witnessed it. People of this nature *do* show up on this board, that email in fact, came from someone on this board. You accuse us of being closed minded but you are the one who is fighting the hardest the idea that even the possibility exists of this form of upmanship, which others outside of my global isolation have acknowledged. Is this then an imagined conspiracy on our parts? No. Protie. I appreciated your answer to my original question however, I find your continual rebuttals along the same point without foundation to be tiring. I respect your opinion but once was enough and twice was plenty. Please, before you attempt to use things as references, read them carefully (ie: my involvement in the Battle Wounds, the involvement of the several others on this thread contradicting you, the idle tosses of moderate yourselves and practice what you preach when you did not).I have not received messages nor emails of any other complaints on this thread, and usually I do on upsetting threads. You seem to be the only person that has come forward that has taken this personally, if it were meant that way I would have then written you directly.I am not sorry for starting this thread. I hope it continues as I find the discussion..pre-tension..to be very interesting. I would also like to see Ade's questions answered. I do wonder what is going on in your world that made you take something so generic and twist it into something so ugly. If you wish to continue this with Whipping Boy, Myself or Flash Fire, please then, email us directly. Malcolm reads this board every day, I am sure he knows your opinion, as we all do, but feel free to email him as well.This board welcomes you and your opinions however, from my own personal perspective there are three last little things I wish to add before this thread can get back to it's regularly scheduled program..1) "Rule 2: respect that not everyone will have the same opinion as you." Please exercise it.2)"If you don't like it, as in all things, *ahem* KINDLY BUZZ OFF"Your words, listen to them.3)"If you don't like a thread, don't read it!" Again, your own words, please follow your own advice.------------------Pele Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir...http://www.pyromorph.com[This message has been edited by Pele (edited 10 August 2001).]

Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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BEZERKER
BEZERKER

enthusiast

Member Since: 29th Apr 2001
Total posts: 237
Posted:BRAVO!*sniff* I feel like I've witnessed something special Pele
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pixygoth
member
Location: Dundee/Edinburgh, Scotland
Member Since: 4th Aug 2001
Total posts: 14
Posted:Pele, that was so unfair. _I_ certainly felt personally quite hurt by your "NEWBIES! DON'T BE SUCH IDIOTS" thread... however, as a newcomer, I also felt too intimidated to say anything... so while you may not have had any complaints, that doesn't mean there weren't any.Protazoa made me feel much better, by standing up for those of us who have *mentioned* injuries etc. If someone really hurts themselves (whether or not they brag about it) then can't you just think that they're a bit of an idiot (in your own head, obviously.)? There's no _need_ to tell them to be more careful, because they either will be next time, or won't, and serve them right. Certainly, if you do feel the need to preach, try a little bit more to not _sound_ preachy, huh?
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But not to hassle you any longer, you're definitely on the defensive already... how big was that post slamming Protie? Live and Let Live, absolutely.p_g xx


Shonagh~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~'tralala, said the happy little pixygoth'

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Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted:Pixygoth...Please read all the posts carefully. Never once did I call newbies idiots, in fact never once did I mention newbies (that was another thread not started by me!) AND if I am going to preach safety to anyone, then it would be newbies so they can learn and benefit from the mistakes I have made. That is not what this thread's original post was about! It goes back to reading things into what is said. I asked about boasting scars, not about discussing injuries, again different thread. I did not "slam" Protie, I did not call her names or attack her moral fiber. In fact, I believe I thanked her for her opinion, and I was far more polite than I originally cared to be, but that is how I am, same as I am being with you. She came in here with guns flaring and without alot of back up, if you read my response to her you can see where I was able to support my statements. It was not only me she was slamming but also WB and FF, and in fact it seemed anyone else who cared to disagree with her. So what you are saying is that it is alright for her to call us names, attack our moral character out of something misconstrued but it is not okay for me to politely defend myself?If you read my second post as being harsh, then you missed the point and should re-read it. Same with the first one.Now let me ask. Did you get your SCARS, not burns, from something stupid..like trying to impress someone needlessly and trying something you were not ready for? Or did you have a mishap and get bumped? Do you pull up your sleeves to everyone you meet and say "hey look at this"? There is a large difference here PG. You get bumped, you learn, you move on. You get ten stiches and brag..."I had no idea how to do a 10 beat weave but I thought I'd try it on fire anyway" and then go out and do somethin along those lines again...you think that is intelligent?Move on...absolutely. So, if you have anything to offer the **original** topic of this thread then let's hear it. I welcome it. However, in the future I suggest you read things as they are written, not with an assumed tone or between the lines as this will save you much hurt and aggrivation. I write exactly what I think and do not keep things hidden, and as I said, my tone unless I otherwise state is never anything other than respectful and polite (if you want to see where I am not so polite, and I state it, then check out J.T. in the Other Cool Threads where I make it abundantly clear). I would appreciate if you would not assume that I mean something I do not. I am sorry if your misinterpretaions hurt you but I will not apologize for what I wrote as I see nothing wrong with it.And Berzerker, you still make me laugh!Where ya been and what do you think on the original topic?------------------Pele Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir...http://www.pyromorph.com[This message has been edited by Pele (edited 11 August 2001).]

Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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BEZERKER
BEZERKER

enthusiast

Member Since: 29th Apr 2001
Total posts: 237
Posted:Hey Pele

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BEZERKER
BEZERKER

enthusiast

Member Since: 29th Apr 2001
Total posts: 237
Posted:Oops, I didn't do that
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Anyway, pele I've been keeping my distance to avoid unecessary aggravation.Me? I love tattoos and piercings. I can come at scarification from a tribal view point though would never do it myself.As far as fire twirling scars go I've had a couple of close breathing calls along the path of learning and have only suffered some VERY minor 'touches' at the hands of poi or devil sticks (anything else keppes it's distance from me
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)For me the point is keeping UNscarred. I have no issue with people telling the tail but I've never been a fan of the pain is cool type who likes to state that they enjoyed the pain and check out this scar (pain sux and should ba avioded IMHO).That said being pierced and tattooed was something I viewd objectively an d experientially though I wouldn't put it on the 'enjoyable' shelf.Hope you and yours are well spiderblade
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protozoa
member
Location: Baltimore, MD USA
Member Since: 2nd Feb 2001
Total posts: 148
Posted:Pele,If you want to remove my posts, or lock this thread down, that's one thing. Your posing rhetorical questions and your request to leave this discussion are totally unreasonable, and they very effectively speak to one of my original , very fundamental, and very correct grievances. First and foremost, this is a forum; "forum" implies that some back-and-forth is what we're actually here for, not for anyone's tired rhetoric. I continue to direct my responses to the public because I want to hear what others have to say about them in addition to what you haveto say about them, in the hopes that if you can't call me on my bull---t someone else can. Additionally I believe that anyone who can bear with us this long deserves to be privvy to any resolution we reach. If your post had really bothered me that much on a personal level, sure, I would have sent it to you personally. But it didn't, frankly. So as much as you have the right to your opinion in public or in private at your discretion, so have I to mine.Firstly, if you think my remarks about HOP moderators are self-contradictory I haven't explained myself clearly. Yes, you should be as opinionated as you want to be. No, I don't think you should give yourself a heart attack struggling to feign impartiality on every topic.However, there are a number of elements in your original post that imply that your primary intention was simply to piss on people who have attitudes you don't approve of and treat this board (again) like your soapbox (which you are wholly within your rights as a human being to do so. I'm not challenging that at all. I will challenge your assertions when I feel it's called for. Fair enough?). Specifically, "I don't get it and I realise maybe it's just me. I am not the pissing contest type." is hardly the type of thing one says when they want, sincerely, to open a dialogue about something they don't understand. It _is_ the sort of thing a closed-minded snob would say.Really, Pele, have you never heard someone ask "so this fire thing, it's like some kind of extreme sport? I guess I just don't get it; I'm not the sort of person who is so insecure that they need to draw attention to themselves in that way." That's adismissive and insulting approach to what could be considered, in the broadest sense, a reasonable question, specifically,"What is fire poi and why do you do it?". I should think you of all people could appreciate the difference between the two.A moderator, in my opinion, ought to aspire to a nobler cause than simplistic hyper-moralized venting at the expense of others (you can do it at the expense of others even if you don't name names), and that's what got my ass a-burning in the first place. You cannot say something like that and then purport to simply be posing a "valid question". The moderator's job, as I've always seen it anyway, is to do what they can to open doors of communication, not shut them down by arbitrarily exercising their liberties (which I never accused you of), nor through judgemental moralizing. This certainly doesn't necessitate that you castigate your forebrain and keep your opinions to yourself; far from it!As for this thread's appropriateness: of course, your orignal "question" is a valid one, and you, again, are fully within your rights to start a new thread anytime you wish. WhippingBoy implied that your post was inspired by the "Battle Wounds" thread, which would make it rather bad form for you to split off and start ranting about it elsewhere, had that been the case. At some point I made, I admit, the faulty assumption that Whipping Boy had some kind of insider information on you and in my mind, I allowed him to put words in your mouth. For that I apologize.Incidentally, however, my responses to him along those lines were directed at his remarks, not at yours in your original post, and were perfectly valid in that context. If he feels as though he has anything more to say on the subject, I eagerly look forward to his responses. Or, if you feel you have something to say that might clarify for me what Whipping Boy's intentions were, or perhaps you wish to expand on a point he made, feel free to do so. But trying to deconstruct my remarks directed at his posts as though they were directed at yours and using that as an attempt to present them as logically problematic that is an utter fallacy. Please try to take the discussion in context post-by-post; that's how these things work.Further, I did read your post, as I did every post on that "Battle Wounds" thread, very carefully. I know you didn't describe any permanent injuries, and never said that you did. My comments to Whipping Boy are perfectly logical as I see them; Whipping Boy conceded that he couldn't find any outright evidence of one-upsmanship (he had previously asserted his grievance with scar discussions was the pretense of one-upsmanship) but switched to an assertion that posts such as the ones he quoted were 'dangerous' in their own right, without the one-upsmanship. I challenged him on that point, and made a minor reference to the fact that you yourself posted there, describing injuries. That seems perfectly fair to me, and not at all out of line.Indeed, it really gets to the heart of _my_ original question, in a sense, and it's something neither you nor Whipping Boy nor anyone else has _really_ answered; what exactly is it that's so objectionable about discussing - or even bragging - about scars anyway? And if someone simply doesn't like reading about such things, must they read it anyway and get panties their all in a bunch? That's where my "if you don't like it, KINDLY BUZZ OFF" statement comes from; there's no need to go telling people what they can and can't talk about under even the most extreme of circumstances, in my opinion. (I also admit this interjection originally was magnified by the increasing sense of frustration I have with the anti-raver, anti-glowsticks backlash on this board. I don't see anything so great about glowsticks nor am I, by _any_ concievable standard, a raver. But jeez, can't we let the kids have their fun? If you don't like it, don't read it! My desire to shout "LIVE AND LET BLOODY LIVE ALREADY!" applies to this conversation as well, though, so I don't think it was too out of line.)Now with regard to your "with guns flaring and not a lot of backup" remark to pixygoth, I've been every bit as civil as everyone else in this forum, and if you're reading some kind of personal malice into my words then it is you who are taking things too seriously. Again, if I'd really taken any of this as personally offensive, I would have responded to you privately. "[N]ot a lot of backup", I admit, is especially hard for me to swallow, considering how elusive you've been all along about your source of this complaint about scars and bragging. It was all I could do to figure out what the heck you were even referring to in your original post aside from myriad nebulous 'email discussions, icq discussions..' (and neither, even, could WhippingBoy, I suspect, as he was relying on the Battle Wounds thread for examples which you now say you _weren't_ specifically referring to). You based your entire commentary on, we're all left to presume, remarks made to you privately. So, naturally, anyone who might have anything to say about it is left guessing and 'without any backup'. As far as anybody knows, any remark any of us have ever made to you could be the source of your strife; everyone is suddenly accountable for explaining themselves. It might have a great deal of personal meaning for you and I guess it's great fodder for "sheer opinionated commentary", but from the outside it reads like either a personal attack directed to everybody or total B.S. on your part.Nevertheless, I feel as though I backed up my assertions pretty well, either with my own perspectives or with simple logic, and have clarified why I feel the way I do where it's been pointed out to me that I haven't done so and in a thoughtful and constructive manner. I hope you'll take the time to do the same next time you post.On the other hand, if I'm belaboring this issue in the "continual rebuttals" you refer to that has certainly not been my intention. Each of my posts were written to address specific points I had issue with in the posts of others who have participated in this discussion, and as far as I can tell I haven't posed a single question or point twice.I hope you will indulge me and allow me to restate one, central point to this discussion as I see it at least as far as you and I are concerned, Pele: this is no place for _anyone_ to post "sheer opinionated commentary" without being taken to task for it. We seem to agree that not everyone has to have the same opinion on everything, which is good. Personally I'm grateful for it; groupthink is tedious at best and can be dangerous when discussing these issues. But I can't help noticing all the posts you reference as being "positive" were all the ones who agreed with you, or affirmed what you'd been waiting to hear all along ("yeah, it's a macho thing" "I was just trying to fit in").
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I can recommend several good weblog programs if you'd rather have a safe haven for your opinionated commentaries; in a discussion forum you do run the risk of having someone loudly take issue with what you have to say.Regards,protie(Edited to fix line wrap problems)[This message has been edited by protozoa (edited 11 August 2001).]


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Code128
member
Location: Boston, MA USA
Member Since: 6th Jul 2001
Total posts: 69
Posted:Personally Im a very darwinian person in that I think if you do stupid things and get yourself hurt well its your fault. If you learn from that your a smarter person. If you do the same thing repeatedly and continue to hurt yourself you have problems. Are Scars Cool? Well yeah they are. You went head to head with something very powerful and were able to survive the trial. Do you tell each and every person about the trial, maybe if you have a very large need for attention. But do you tell people who have faced the same trials and understand where your coming from, probably but again its an individual decision. When you suffer from abuse, you tell the stories to other abused people, because they know what you are talking about. When you Skydive or Sail it makes sense to tell of the near misses and narrow escapes to other Skydivers or Sailors. Why swap these stories? Life is a lot richer when you hear the tales of others, if all you knew were your own stories, what could you compare to?So anyway dont burn yourself in the face, because nobody thinks that facial scars are cool, except for comic book characters and maybe bounty hunters. But youll limit yourself to a crew of fictional characters and people that hunt people for a living. No offense to Skip Tracers intended. I have a scar on my right forearm from a dog attack. Do I show this to everyone, no, but if I was discussing dogs with a group and we were talking about attacks, would I show, of course. I love dogs, but I dont love scars.

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A.N.T.H.E.L.I.O.N

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Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted:Thank you Code128 and Berzerker. That was interesting. Hmmm...I do have a tatoo that is expressly mine and I don't show it to many (it's in a hide away place). Same with scars. I have some from non performing issues, but don't really bring them up, though I will say every now and then we get into the conversations about when I was a kid I flew off my bike... And now it's all for a laugh and immagery. Again though, I mention I have the scar, I don't show them. I can see the dog one as a lesson, as are most scars at least for me, I hope. It is interesting to me to see how many take the scar for a lesson though. I do know people who have done scarrification to themselves but that was of the more masochistic tendencies they have than anything.I thought about the ritualistic type thing that Ade proposed. I went back thinking, was it a mile marker when I got my first sore muscle from beginning spinning, or my first blister, or my first singed hair? Not for me it wasn't. That was more of a nuisence. My mile markers have actually been my friends. From when my housemates mom watched me practice in the back yard with the "please don't let her catch fire" expression to her witnessing a performance and walking up to me saying "Oh my god I am so impressed". Things like that are my mile markers, my rites of passage so to speak. However, for some who are more group oriented it might be different. And this is something I would like to hear from Protie or others who are in groups, if you or anyone you know might view the scar swapping stories as a rite of passage to the group. I don't think anyone would set out to get burned to get into a troupe, my gods I hope not!!!
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But there are all types out there and you never know.Protie...please move on!
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I DID explain several times that I see nothing wrong with scars or talking about them but I wanted to know WHY people brag and compare.I have no problem with any answers to the question I posed, the people I supported answered it, including you..and I acknowledged that a few times. Pixy Goth never answered it, which was part of my problem with her response. Thank you for your opinions. ------------------Pele Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir...http://www.pyromorph.com[This message has been edited by Pele (edited 11 August 2001).]


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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BEZERKER
BEZERKER

enthusiast

Member Since: 29th Apr 2001
Total posts: 237
Posted:ENCORE! ENCORE!Throws flowers at the stage
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seaya
member
Location: Baltimore, MD
Member Since: 8th Aug 2001
Total posts: 3
Posted:Scars are funny as hell provided they weren't totaly disfiguring. Basically, they provide impetus for friends to make fun of each other or tell each other, yes it is possible to get hurt doing poi, even for me, and yes be careful.I don't have any poi scars yet, but I don't take many risks, and consequently, I suck at poi haha.Basically, if you have a problem with the scar topic, ignore it. It really ain't this big deep thing. It's just war stories in the virtual pub.

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courtnee
member
Location: Seattle, WA USA
Member Since: 10th Aug 2001
Total posts: 37
Posted:jesus, what an aggravating thread.. apparently even when you specifically mention not wanting a pissing contest you'll get one anyway :)my thoughts on battle scar comparing? it happens all the time, just for different reasons. i dont think its just a male thing, but i do think males are more inclined to try to compare sizes and severity for the sake of being the tougher one than females are.. from my life experience.i personally share my scars, from poi or otherwise, as warnings and/or jokes. i try not to take myself seriously anymore, thinking that way caused me a lot of pain when i was growing up. the only scars i hide are the ones i gave myself during that time, and having scars to actually be ashamed of makes the ones i may get from doing something i love trivial to speak about.the way i see it really, unless you're incredibly patient and dont spark up until you've mastered every last concept or you're just a poi genius, you're going to get singed and possibly scarred by it. thats the trade off for instant gratification, eh? :) I fully assume that i will get overly excited and light up while there is still the possibility that ill miss and thwack myself, and if its because i was being an idiot, so be it. ill have something else to laugh at myself about. its all for the joy of it, just like spraining my wrist in gymnastics.. and i have enough confidence in myself not to do something truly dangerous to myself or others around me.i guess my point is, shit happens, and people like to talk about it when it does.. especially with those who can comprehend and understand the subject.-------------------nee

-nee

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Blackbird
member
Location: London UK
Member Since: 23rd Jul 2001
Total posts: 337
Posted:Oh you accursed people, catching me at a point of hideous ineloquence, you made me seem really rather witless and foolish.:P

x X x Ĉ К я x X x

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