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pozee
BRONZE Member since Jul 2001

old hand
Location: san diego

Total posts: 886
Posted:i was wondering if anyone had tried a 5 beat butterfly weave? i tried briefly lastnight and it seemed like it would work okay. anyone thats done it, let me know. i was just sitting here wondering if it is going to work or not. if not i will try more on it tonight and let ya know...

anyone got a light?

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PeDey


member
Location: nevernever land

Total posts: 189
Posted:I cracked the 5bt this morning . You can do it split time and in time .
You have to use tnt movements to switch which hand is on top,so you get the weave movements.by adding the 5 beat weave movements to the bf weave you get a nice flowing move that really takes alot of thinking about.

If you get the 3bt your hands should be doin the over ,under ,out movements of the weave,(i've not managed to do this split time yet??? ???)

Now adding the 5bt movements in. if you starton the right side doin a reversee bf, tnt and at the same time wrap your left wrist around the right and take the whole lot to the left side the first beat will be done with the left poi furthest away from you, then unwrap your arms using tnt.

then as the poi reach the top of there swing wrap the right wrist in a 5bt style and pull it all to the right and carry on from there.

This might be complete bollocks but this is how I understand it at the moment,
hope this makes seense to somone, if not I'll try and explain a bit better.

early morning Cuddles
Spike


ask yourself this??.......... When was the last time you dug a hole you could be proud of???
answers on a post card

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Kyrian


Dreamer
Location: York, England

Total posts: 4308
Posted:in time too huh..... ah well back to the drawing board...

which makes sense i guess cause i swear i saw the boys doing this in time, (2-beat) wheras i do it split time (two-beat) altho i could be nutty.

and i have teh basis for a three beat split time. it just...well.... i suck at it so it isn't actually three beats yet.... it's more like 20 million and then i do teh transition i'd haev to, tangle, untangle, start all over again....

three beat butterfly weave in same time.... *hmms* you know that might be easier than what i'm trying to do?
i'll go try it later this afternoon !


Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:I think I get it, and if I do, agree that it's more of an alternating thread the needle than a weave. Am I correct in assuming that you can just stop at any segment and do whatever butterfly you happen to be doing at the moment, right? You're esssentially just alternating "over-under" with "butterfly-reverse butterfly" on each side of your body...

Are we sure the beat counts are ODD? (3, 5) as, if you do it on the beat (rather than split time) wouldn't it be 4 beats? I guess you could force it to be 3 or 5 by doing one beat "crossed"... Do I have a clue?


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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pozee
BRONZE Member since Jul 2001

old hand
Location: san diego

Total posts: 886
Posted:okay, so in literal terms yes it would be better called a TTN weave, youve got it NYC. but the "5 beat" is really just a TTN butterfly twist the helll out of your hands for no reason weave

if you can do the alternating butterfly wrap, it is kind of like that (the hand twisty thing) except when you go to wrap one of those arms, twist the wrist up and over the other arm and bring that poi to the other side. just like a 5 beat weave...


anyone got a light?

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:Actually, I ain't got nothin'... my poi theory understanding is far exceeding what I can actually do with them.

I am theoretically awesome though. Excuse me while I think of myself doing a 5 beat behind the back fountain. Ouch, that hurts getting it over my head.


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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Kyrian


Dreamer
Location: York, England

Total posts: 4308
Posted:you can do three beat versions though. i've got a very messy one in the works.

two beat (or even beat) is easier though....

and i relly only do it split time not even a decent ttn oh well more work eh?


Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

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BerzerkerBoi


member
Location: Lodi, California

Total posts: 8
Posted:what in the world!? i didnt even know ther is such thing as a beat on a butterfly..just continuous spinning.....well if u get into detail i might understand but umm if u got pics vidoes whatever of that move i would look foward to seeing it............ALOT
(5 beat butterfly?)


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PeDey


member
Location: nevernever land

Total posts: 189
Posted:right in answer to the beats, think of it as a weave each poi will do its individual turns on either side but in opposite directions.

so...when I do a 3beat bf weave there are 3beats on each side, the hand movenments are exactly the same as the 3beat weave, the right poi does 2beats on the left and 1 one the right and vise versa for the left poi.

keeping in mind that we're trying to recreate the exact same movements as a 5 beat weave with the butterfly, the same rulee apllies, so your right poi will do 3 beats on the left and 2 on the right again vise versa for the left.

I don't agree with the ttn weave because, yes you have to do a TTn on both sides but thats only to gain the movements of the weave with the poi going on opposite directions,

I have found after spending alot of time on this move last night that to do a succseful 5bt the possitioning of the poi is critical especially when coming from left to right , if the left hand isn't tucked in tight enough the string will always wrap on the right arm.

On the left side......
start doin a forward bf, as they reach the top of the swing wrap your right wrist as per 5bt weave, at the same time the left poi swing over with the rt poi, so at this point the rt poi is on the out side and the left is on the inside.

this is where it tends to wrap if it's not straight, as the left string brushes the right arm before moving via a ttn to the outside.

I've also managed the 3beat in time and split time , so it came be done both ways , but it is harder to co-ordinate in split time,

this all makes sense in my head but if there are any bits that don't make sense let me know and I'll have another go at explaining it.

Spike


ask yourself this??.......... When was the last time you dug a hole you could be proud of???
answers on a post card

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PeDey


member
Location: nevernever land

Total posts: 189
Posted:Well that was a pointless exsecise but it was good fun. I got the 5bt bf weave using the same movements as the standard 5bt weave, but instead of having 5 beats on each side I get 4 beats on my right and 6 on the left, so I still get all 10 beats just 1 is on the wrong side ah well.

*scurries off to find a new trick to play with*

Spike


ask yourself this??.......... When was the last time you dug a hole you could be proud of???
answers on a post card

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Tempest


addict
Location: Sheffield

Total posts: 522
Posted:okay,

so i ve bee playing some more with this 5 beat butterfly weave.

Effectively, im doing a 3beat butterfly weave on each side of my body so when they join up, one of those beats is part of both leaving me with a 5 beat butterfly weave.

That make sense to anyone?

I know there has been some talk about this not actually being a weave in the past but everything about it (beats, hand positions, timing etc) match that of a 5 beat weave, just one hand is spinning reverse to the other poi.

The hands are weaving so surely it must be?
Still havent got it in split time or really even got it down that funky yet, just enough to be able to analyse it properly.

A thread the needle weave would have 4 beats in my Yorkshire reckoning.


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PoiBox


member
Location: Bangkok

Total posts: 85
Posted:TTN Weave should have 4 - 2 left 2 right...
So you have 5 -
a: 2 left, one in the middle and 2 right?
b: 2 left, 2 right and one on the transition from one side to the other but not the other way round?
c: 4 Beat TTN movement distributed to both sides (my guess cause this is more or less the 5 beat weave hand movement)?
-> could leave space for a 8 beat . . .

so - on which side is the 5th beat?

i hate counting


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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:OH WAIT!!! Is the regular 3 beat butterfly weave SPLIT TIME?! THAT makes so much more sense now... If it is... Is it?

{I know you can do anything split or in time but it seems to be a bit prettier if one does it split time...}


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted:well, personally i found all the even beat weaves lend themselves to same time bf and the odd ones are better for split time bf.

i think its to do with when you cross over - with split time, the poi follow half a beat behind each other (giving you that nice cross follow timing when you hit a 3bt bf weave).

doing a 3bt same time gives you a cross over with hands on opposite sides for a beat which just looks a bit crap.
so to avoid it you just cut down to even beat weaves.


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Tempest


addict
Location: Sheffield

Total posts: 522
Posted:Hi Coleman

I got a same time butterfly weave that moves both hands across the body at the same time.

Will you be at Glasto or has my brain done too much butterfly thinking?


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JinX


mushroom collector
Location: JHB, South Africa

Total posts: 208
Posted:i have the bf weave thing down to an almost fine art, its my faveriote trick so i do it every time i pick up my poi. the only problem is getting out of the move. i do 1 of 2 things:

1) when the poi are spinning in the reverse bf on one side of my body i bring them back to the front of my body and do a normal bf.

2) i spin around 360 degrees and flick the one poi around my body to change its direction and come back faceing the same way doing a regular weave

problems : 1) i get confused sometimes and if i dont concentrate i get into a big mess.
2) it looks ok! but i have to jump around like a maniac so i want something more fluid and profesional looking.

any advice?


JinX : If it doesnt kill you it makes you stronger

The spin cycle on the washing machine does not make earth worms dizzy.
It will however make cats dizzy and cats throw up twice their bodyweight when dizzy.

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted:hey tempest i will definitely be @ glasto (field to the right of the stone circle - if we hold location from last year ). will be seein you there then i trust?

i didn't really explain myself proper in that last post.

split-time bf weaves look good with even or odd beats.

same-time bf weaves either cross the body @ the same time with even beats or one hand at a time with odd beats.

i like to think of same-time bf weave as equivalent to normal parallel weaves and split-time bf weaves as equivalent to normal follow-time weaves.
trust me, it does make sense if you look at hand cross over timing.

bizarre bf weave geek info-nugget: just as there are two ways to spin a regular two beat weave, there are two ways to spin all bf weaves - including the ones with odd beats.
so there are *two* ways to spin a 3bt bf weave (who cares if apart from arm movements they look identical... ).

[edit: tempest - love your sig! ]


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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flid
BRONZE Member since Aug 2002

flid

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Warwickshire

Total posts: 3136
Posted:Effectively, im doing a 3beat butterfly weave on each side of my body so when they join up, one of those beats is part of both leaving me with a 5 beat butterfly weave.

That make sense to anyone?


yes, but its essentially just a transition, what i'd call the lower fountain if you were doing weave not butterfly weave. I generally go into this move from corkscrew, by hitting the right poi on my right thigh to go into horizontal mexican wave, changee the time to go into overhead butterfly, then switch planes into your "5bt butterfly weave". On the centre beat if you wrap both poi round your thigh you get normal butterfly, or stall one of them and change its direction to go into 3/5bt weave.

off topic slightly, a transition i've been playing with which looks rather neat is: 5 bt forwards weave, turn 90 degrees anticlockwise, stall teh right poi and bring it into reverse butterfly, turn 180 degrees anticlockwise, weaving it into normal butterfly, then stall the right poi and turn 90 degrees, bringing you back to 5bt weave where you started. It can be done
either clockwise or counterclockwise and done with a beat of each. Looks pretty neat. Name for it anyone? I'm sure 1000 people have done it before and think its crap


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Tempest


addict
Location: Sheffield

Total posts: 522
Posted:Hi Coleman,

I like the way you are thinking, really clear for me to visualise. Took me a few seconds to realise what you meant be a parrallel weave cos its one of those moves that i never really took to, but yeah, finally someting makes sense!

I will be at Glasto because i am a lucky f%^&*r, and i will definatley want to come play with any poi and staff people. I will post my bit on the correct thread in a little while. Look forward to meeting ya

Flid, i'm not sure i agree with its just a transition statement and don't see how it can be a low fountain because i dont turn round. Maybe i am unlcaer on what a low fountain actually is. (i will go do my hop homework right away)

When i said i'm doing a butterfly weave on each side of my body, i meant on the left and right sides of my body as in the left and right extremes of a weave - not turning round 180 as though it was front to back.

As i said, i need to do a little research on what a low fountain is (unless you can tell me?) and ill correct any mistakes i have uttered then. Like what your playing around with by the way


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Tempest


addict
Location: Sheffield

Total posts: 522
Posted:ive been a good boy and done my homework.

nope, its not a butterfly version of a fountain.
I stay in the weave positioning.

Im definatley getting somewhere with all this help from you guys

Just hpe i like it when i arrive


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JinX


mushroom collector
Location: JHB, South Africa

Total posts: 208
Posted:Tempest, you seem to have the bf weave nailed, but how do you get out of it , do you uses wraps like a leg wrap or something, because as i said in my previous post. i look like a monkey getting out as i come out into a forward weave.

JinX : If it doesnt kill you it makes you stronger

The spin cycle on the washing machine does not make earth worms dizzy.
It will however make cats dizzy and cats throw up twice their bodyweight when dizzy.

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Tempest


addict
Location: Sheffield

Total posts: 522
Posted:Hi Carsten,

sorry if it seemed like i ignored your previous post, i miss much when my brain in charge.

As for having it nailed, i am getting a good handle on my understanding but am finding it quite hard to accomplish fluid butterfly weave transitions with anything longer than my relativley short practice poi.

I tend to favour stalls rather than wraps at the moment but either is my main way i think. The most slinky transiion i am aiming for at the moment is a reverse butterfly to behind the head butterfly dropping down to behind the back butterfly to back in front again in split time.

Mixing this in with turns just gets my juices flowing. something that Jo has had down for quite some time now. (the move not my juices.lol)

It opens up all sorts of nice transitions to butterly weave split time stuff- too much for my staffers mind to comprihend sometimes.

As for footwork, i am a very pivoty kind of spinner most of the time and i love to turn a lot. I find this nice to pivot on my heels rather than my toes like i normally do.

hope that helps


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flid
BRONZE Member since Aug 2002

flid

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Warwickshire

Total posts: 3136
Posted:ive been a good boy and done my homework.

nope, its not a butterfly version of a fountain.
I stay in the weave positioning.


Well i guess i ain't up on the lingo

To me a lower fountain is where you stand facing forward and do a forwards weave with one side parallel to the front of your body and the other beats parallel to the back of your body. The beats to the front of your body become the beats of the backwards weave, which you carry on parallel to your body on the other side. Thus your body doesn't turn (ie you don't move your feet), but you do a forwards weave on the right and a backwards weave on left (or vice versa).

An upper fountain is the same, except instead of the middle beat being infront of you, you do it overhead (ie one beat of windmill).

You can do them both with 3 beat weave/2 beat windmill and 5 beat weave/4 beat windmill.

if this makes any sense.... I've got some time lapse fotos online, but just my luck my webserver is down at the moment.

What i think you are describing is a butterfly version of the lower fountain (or at least what i clasify to be the lower fountain). Ie one beat of buttefly infront of your, turn your upper body (keeping your feet in the same place) and do one beat of reverse butterfly behind you. Then move back to one beat to normal butterfly, after which move in the opposite direction to before, to do another reverse weave behind you. Keep it going backwards and forwards.

To transition between 5 beat lower fountain and butterfly fountain, then on the center beat stall the right poi (no wrap needed, although you could wrap the right poi on your left lower arm) to reverse direction, bringing you into the center beat of the butterfly fountain. Again stall the right poi in center beat to go into 5 beat weave lower fountain.

If my lingo is all wrong theen i appologise . If you are trying to describe something different to this, then please tell me more, i'm always up for some new moves!

Ta


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Tempest


addict
Location: Sheffield

Total posts: 522
Posted:Hey Flid,

Nah man, from my recent research you got the naming thang down solid. Although it's easy to see why there are lots of transitions named fountains of some sort after reading all the threads related.

Some of them are really quite volatile at times - all this over names, mind you this is all we have to go by most of the time to describe things that my mind can only just describe to myself.

By saying that I am staying in the weave positioning when i do this move i mean i stay as if i was doing a forward or reverse weave constantly, neither my body, shoulders head or feet turn at all. Well maybe my shoulders turn a few degrees but nowhere neer to even 10 degrees, its negligible.

By describing it as a 3 beat butterfly weave on each side I may have confused matters but that is exactly how the poi are moving - just that they dont move across my body untill a full 3 beat weave is completed. The planes the poi are moving in constantly change as in a thread the needle - A five beat forward weave but with the right poi spinning opposite the way it should, thus a five beat butterfly weave in my Yorkshire reckoning.

I am going to play with Josh and Katinca this weekend and taking my DV camera so maybe if he teaches me some of his ninja computer uploady type skills I will be able to show you what takes me a thousand words to say badly in a few seconds.

No promises but it would help i think.


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flid
BRONZE Member since Aug 2002

flid

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Warwickshire

Total posts: 3136
Posted:ah video, that sounds like a plan

technically speaking i have a camera sitting infront of me and could upload clips of the moves i've described, but then it is 5am and i don't need more excuses not to go to bed


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Tempest


addict
Location: Sheffield

Total posts: 522
Posted:that didnt sound too technical

sorry couldn't resist


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flid
BRONZE Member since Aug 2002

flid

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Warwickshire

Total posts: 3136
Posted:everything sounds technical to me at 5am. Just got up then?

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Tempest


addict
Location: Sheffield

Total posts: 522
Posted:Hey Flid, managed to get a few seconds of Jo doing what I believe to be the 5beat buttefly weave.

My movie maker is playing up as i installed the update and it crashed during it, now i cant capture. I think i have to format my hard drive and reinstall to get it to work again as i have tried everyting else.

Just waiting for some progs in the post before i can do that. Just possible that Josh may have better footage too cos his camera was at the back of the room and mine was close and down low.

When i do manage to capture, do you have a space for a short vid to be posted?


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Tempest


addict
Location: Sheffield

Total posts: 522
Posted:Hey Flid,

reformatted, installed, captured, edited.


It's just over 3mb and in wmv.

Does anyone have any space to put this up for a few days or tell me what the best way to get a small amount of 'free' space is?



[ 26. April 2003, 11:53: Message edited by: TEMPEST ]


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Jez


addict
Location: UK, London

Total posts: 642
Posted:Here is the video Tempest sent me that you are all waiting for.

Please prepare your own drum roll!!

Butterfly weaves

Have fun


'Happiness is liking peeing on yourself. Everyone can see it, but only you can feel the warmth.'

'If *I* had a hammer, there'd be no more folk singers.'

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Tempest


addict
Location: Sheffield

Total posts: 522
Posted:cheers Jez

I will have some space soon, but appreciate the helping hand, nice one


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