Forums > Beginner Poi Moves > a butterfly turn

Posted: 3rd Dec 2001
someone who knows what they're talking about There are many ways you can turn a butterfly. Over the shoulder, under the elbow. Depending on which hand is leading before and after the turn. I don't know if anyone else does this but i can turn a butterfly with my hands crossed in a 5-beat motion back and forth. Looks quite cool.------------------[]Dhuong-Vu Truong==== []Dhunky ====

Posted: 4th Dec 2001
come again dude?what do you mean by that, is that one of the cross over move with four? im intrigued (but also a bad speller hahaha) ive seen anouk and some of my other mates do some weird stuff with butterflies, but i cant picture what youre doing, perhaps you could break it down a little for us?uhhhmmm i dont know if i agree with what you said about which hand is leading before or after the turn though, but thats juz prolly cause i dont understand fully what you mean (too many stone impacts!!) but i think you might mean (im probably way off though) that if the leading hand goes over during the firt half of the spin then it has to come under for the next?well anyway even if thats completely off the ball , it dosent matter, the poi can go from anywhere to anywhere, depending on how you use them. but as the moves get more obscure the footwork that accompanies them has to get more exact and flexibility starts becoming more important for the two butterflies to maintain a course.damm my ignorance, i still havent comprehended what a five beat motion is!!!! hey phunky, have you tried getting the poi to meet at the sides instead of the top and bottom? thats some crazy shit, its a pretty aggressive way to be swinging aroung weights on the end of string!!!!![This message has been edited by jonathan (edited 04 December 2001).]

Posted: 4th Dec 2001
i turn a split time butterfly with split time armwraps. if you can do the 3point split time bfly and can do the bfly armwraps in split time then try going into the first of the 3 points (the one on your right) and turn your body with it and go right into the split time wraps and youll be back in the split time bfly.i usually throw in another turn right after the wraps before they do a full rotation so its a 360

Posted: 4th Dec 2001
Butterflies are probably the best kept secret. No one really works on it because they just don't "flow" well enough unless you start putting some real time and effort into developing them.First thing you have to remember, when doing a butterfly and then you cross your hands, it looks vaguely like a reverse butterfly right? Try turning a reverse butterfly into a reverse butterfly. Or Turn a butterfly when your hands always crossed. There are so many small things that can be done to add to the overall presentation and style of your butterflies. Turning a butterfly under the arm is one of my favs. Let's say from a forward butterfly, with your left hand on top. You can bring it under your right arm by tucking the right hand poi under your left bring it behind you. You'll notice if you leave it for a couple beats behind you, your hands are crossed in a Forward 5-beat weave position.You can also do a reverse 5-beat motion with butterflies. Starting with a reverse butterfly with your left hand on top, bring your right hand poi under your left hand and swing it, you'll notice at this point that your hands are in a reverse 5-beat position and your right hand is on top. Then just turn to your left and complete the turn.All of these moves require you to change which hand is leading in mid-fly by crossing your hands and small thread the needles. There are so many little things that you can do, experiment, you won't be dissapointed at what those butterflies can do. Remember all this can be done behind the back also.Yes, split-time butterflies are cool but kinda limiting (that i know of). Basically all i can do is turn them left or right, 360 and turning it behind the back. No 5-beat motions or anything that i've discovered as of yet.Oh ya, another thing. More poi theory than moves. I always thought when doing butterflies there were 2 vertical "planes". From forward butterfly and then you'd turn it to reverse butterfly. Those were your 2 planes and you would move the poi around your body. If you think about it, your only moving in one plane with yourself moving around the poi. Example, forward butterfly, cross your hands its reverse. Forward and reverse is all in perception, where your looking and excetra.ok gotta stop blabbing.------------------[]Dhuong-Vu Truong==== []Dhunky ====

Posted: 4th Dec 2001
i think maybe ive got a bit confused. is a butterfly a one handed or two handed move?. the moves im talking about were for one handed use. but there i go again, just to damm lazy to get on top of the lingo. now it makes sense to me phunk, what youre saying, yep youre on to it!. but try the one handed stuff. it opens up more avenues to rush headlong down into. a bit of perververence with the one handed butterfly goes a long way. you obviously know how to poi well, it gets a lot better with two one handed butterflysall the turns you can do with a normal butterfly still apply in the split time, even those 5 beat motions, the main thing that has to be different is how you move your feet when youre doing it (im starting to sound like a broken record hahaha!!). remember to keep breathing and keep you back straight. just stay relaxed and have a good play, it took me a while to figure out how to do them, theres no reason at all why it should take you as long![This message has been edited by jonathan (edited 05 December 2001).]

Posted: 5th Dec 2001
a butterfly can be a two handed or a one handed move. Though usually if someone says butterfly is refers to the 2-handed one.One thing though, i don't see why my feet have to do with anything though. You can turn a butterfly without moving your feet. You can turn a split-time butterfly without moving your feet. I'm sure it helps, but not necessary. Anyways, i doubt i'll try to learn with 4 poi anytime soon because of the weather outside and you need lots of room for 4. I'm pretty sure 4 poi will be alot like spinning 2 staffs though.------------------[]Dhuong-Vu Truong==== []Dhunky ====

Posted: 5th Dec 2001
no, 4 poi are like swinging 3.5 kilograms of sharp native heart wood with a 12 inch jagged jade spike at the end through some one, footwork is important for grace and flow. do you know much about poi? do you know what a taiaha is...........4 poi are similar to using a stick, and broadly similar to many other weapons (if youre interested enough go back to those moves i posted and follow what the hands are doing). the turning moves done with four teach you tight foot work. o.k, o.k. so the point of that particular style of foot work might not aimed at fire poi, but it can still be used that way!!!! i do enjoy some healthy debate!![This message has been edited by jonathan (edited 06 December 2001).]

Posted: 5th Dec 2001
yes, debating is fun I've come to the conclusion that we spin poi for different reasons and such, you i guess the martial art aspect of it and myself for the dancing aspect of it. I have little experience spinning 4 poi, i just seems more limiting than just spinning 2. You ask me if i know much about poi, i was going to ask you the same thing. I guess poi is very broad and you're learning the more traditional ways of it.------------------[]Dhuong-Vu Truong==== []Dhunky ====

Posted: 5th Dec 2001
yeah 4 poi are limiting, but only in that its hard to do 4, its a lot harder than 2x as hard as doing 2. but the flip side of the coin is that there are two ways of spinning a one handed butterfly, normal time or split time. with one poi there is just spinning it around.there are honestly heaps of moves to do with butterflies...... if your keen to give it a go, start out with short ones in your room. thats how i got into it, its necessary to get control of them, and to learn how to get them going before learning how to dance with them. it took me a full year of practise to even get 4 going, now after about 3 years of doing 4 im just getting my foot in the door....in some maori tribes its a necessary part of the protocol of learning the taiaha to gain competency with 4 poi. the women were renown for their clean, graceful moves.i never said my way of doing it was right, i just thought that some of you guys out there might be wondering what other moves can be done. when i was really into fire dancing, me and my mates were doing all the moves ive seen discussed, but that was like three years ago.im never to proud to learn, whats the point of comparing how i move to someone else? everyone moves in different ways, and there are lessons to be learnt from everyone, no matter how advanced their moves and technique.anyway phunky, one day in the not to distant future i think your curiosity will be raised enough to give it a go.iver never seen anyone else poi like me, but that dosent mean there arent people out there who wouldnt look at me and remember how way back years ago they used to make the same fumbling attempts at four poi that i'm doing now. being positive and trying to share your ability to explain poi moves can only make your own understanding of the poi stronger. a good teacher will always want the people he is teaching to be better than him, just think about that, a little humbleness can go a long waycheers dude!

Posted: 5th Dec 2001
you can do split-time with 2. Ok, here's what i mean by limiting. I have no doubt in my mind that spinning 4 poi is difficult. I haven't been spinning long enough to get bored of just 2. Anyways, i don't know if this applies to why you spin but it does to why i spin. Poi to me is a dance, dancing and usually moving circles of light. With 2, let's say you do a low wave, you're alternating 2 circles on your left and right side. You can then join them up and the circle looks like it's bouncing off each other. You can then try a giaint butterfly to give it more varity also, you can't do giant moves with 4 poi. So let's say you have 4 poi and both are doing the butterfly series. You can do a low wave motion but all you see are 2 lights on both sides bouncing off each other. Essentially turning a butterfly back and forth. Probably cool to see but you need variety to keep the audience watching. You say you can butterfly weave with 4. Essentially a forward and reverse butterfly at the sametime. I have not seen this before but i could imagine all it looks like is a butterfly from the side. I'm not knocking your style by any means, i'll probably pick up 4 poi in the near future but i know for a fact it won't hold my intrest as long as spinning 2 did. Also, i have practiced one handed moves for a while now. Probably ever sinced i started poi about 10 months ago. 2 poi one hand. I do have an idea of what you're talking about, i know how to turn that thing pretty much anywhere and turn it split time. Can also turn it into the weave series with a flick of a wrist. Yes, humbleness can go a long way, and a teacher always wants his students to be better than him. The thing is i share what i know here, who ever wants to learn they read and learn. If they have problems i have no trouble going a little bit more indepth. I don't go around calling myself a teacher and talking down to people as if they were my students. I feel thats kind of disrespectful.------------------[]Dhuong-Vu Truong==== []Dhunky ====

Posted: 5th Dec 2001
o.k. with 1 poi in your left hand, how do you do a split time swing? i dont understand how you can. with 2 in youre left hand you can have them meeting at the top and bottom, or you can have them meeting at the sides.if you add your right hand into the equation then you can do the same moves, in or out of sync as you want. if i weave and the poi are going out of sync and maybe meeting at the sides (one to the front and one to the back) how does that look like one butterfly? there are fundamental differences between using 1 poi or 2 poi in your hand. yes you cant do giant moves with 4, but you can extend your arms (poi were also used for hunting birds) and have the 4 poi whip out and meet at the sides, or the top and bottom and that can cover a distance of up to around 4 metres depending on how tall you are (its only about 3.7 metres for me) so there are analogous moves, but it dosent really make sense to me to try and compare the two styles.its good that you have been playing with the one handed moves, could you fill me in on some of the things youve been doing?[This message has been edited by jonathan (edited 06 December 2001).]

Posted: 5th Dec 2001
with one poi in each hand you start spinning them in split-time together.For the 4 poi butterfly weave, i was hoping you would correct me but, this is what i've visualized because i havent done the move yet. Since a butterfly weave is basically doing a forward and reverse weave at the same time. Since the circles overlap if looked at from the side, all you would see is one circle with light bouncing off each other as in one butterfly, that is if you do it perfectly i guess. Correct me if i'm wrong because im just visualizing it.As for one handed moves hmm, basically turning everywhich way. From one handed butterfly i can kick one of the poi so you start spinning it in a staff motion. What i'm working on actually is throwing a one-handed butterfly between my legs and turning it as it's between the legs. Nothing much actually, it's something i do when im bored. I doubt i could show you anything new one-handed you wouldn't already know but theres probably a bunch of stuff you could learn from me just using 2 poi.------------------[]Dhuong-Vu Truong==== []Dhunky ====

Posted: 6th Dec 2001
yeah but youre still limited by the fact that you need both hands to perform split time moves when theres only one poi in each hand..............(im going to keep labouring this till you get it, one poi in each hand is limiting, two poi in each hand gives you much more, theres still lots of under the leg tricks and stuff like that that are possible if you want to pursue that path with them) now you get the idea, like i said im never to proud to learn.id be keen to hear some of your two poi moves but in all honesty ive forgotten most of mine, i never got into doing lots of flashy moves that wouldnt be effective as fighting ( i still think you might be tiny grasshopper though!), but thats basically because i get a lot of inner ki build up from the poi. plus ive sort of been programmed to move in certain ways since i was 7 (16 years ago). its even hard for me to dance to music, ive just got internal rhythms that are too strong.but do tell me the one handed moves you can do, they are the way forward. if youve come this far in 10 months, in a few years time you'll be looking for more. you might be able to tell me some moves with two that i havent done before (or for years) but in all honesty 2 poi arent hard. be proud by all means, you know what youre doing..........how much do you have to lose before you can proceed? even doing a one handed butterfly is simple, i wouldnt be surprised if you could put in a few twists and turns i hadnt thought of, hand passes and such, but doors you cant see yet are waiting for you to walk through. just think, in 25 years time you might still be doing 4 poi, i know i will.the four poi butterfly weave then......poi must be going in split time out of sink, one hand hitting out in front, one in backarrgh its really complicated, involving many transitional stances that must be done in rapid succession to line your body up to keep the poi moving properly. about the most i want to tell you is that its not anything like a two poi weave, 4 poi just dont work like that and it dosent make sense to try and think about four poi moves in terms of standard fire poi moves theres a lot more foot movement, it dosent look like one butterfly because youre bringing them behind your head , past your shoulder, and generally everywhich way but loose. i guess when youve told me how much one handed stuff you can do then i'll be able to shed a bit more light on it. but anyway phunky please regail me with some of your extra specially technical moves so i can hone up again on the basics (just kidding dude!!)i hope to hear both standard and onehanded moves from you!!later bro

Posted: 6th Dec 2001
You say it's limiting to use both hands to do split-time moves, i say it's limiting to have both hands already doing split-time. They way i look at it, in the butterfly series with 2 poi you can make 3 types of circles. One circle by just spining one poi around, have them come together and make a butterfly, and a split-time butterfly. With 4 you can only do the latter 2.Well im sure my position on what is more limiting 2 poi or 4 poi won't change. So if anyone else wants to jump in with their opinion please do so. I'm sure if you ask any staffer what they can do more with they'll tell you one staff, and not 2. Where as 4 poi is alot like spinning 2 staffs.One thing though, you say you don't learn flashey moves because they don't apply to fighting and such. See i had an argument with my friend awhile back and if we had to use poi to defend ourselves i for one would not use 4. Not 3, or even 2 i'd use just 1. Though 4 would be as intimidating as hell, i don't think it would be practical in a fighting aspect.------------------[]Dhuong-Vu Truong==== []Dhunky ====

Posted: 6th Dec 2001
i didnt say it was limiting to use both hands to do a split time move. i dont know how to put it more obviously than this, with one poi in your left hand, never mind the other hand there is one way of swinging it, around and around. theres nothing else to gauge how its spinning against, with two poi in your hand there are two basic swings, one defensive (meeting top and bottom) and one offensive (meeting at the sides) never mind what you think you know, just ponder on that, if you cant see how there are more moves possible..............as i see it there are 4 ways of just standing there spinning 4 poi, without doing any moves at all just like doing 2 but its the application of how they move that makes the difference.yes well as for the weapons side of it a few thousand years of maori culture would disagree with you. you just dont know how to use 4, so how can you be in a position to make an educated and well informed decision?nothing youve said to me about 4 poi has rung true at all.......... when id been doing fire for a year like you i remember i used to think much like you too.its all good though just so long as everyone happy, and having a good time. everyone likes doing stuff differently, it just makes life more interesting to hear other perspectives. just dont tell me whats possible or not with 4 poi when its obvious to me you dont know. youve even said youveonly been visualising 4, thats all good, but remember 4 dont work like 2 cool as though, i think we could keep on like this for a long long time, perhaps its time to agree to disagree?what do you say phunky?

Posted: 6th Dec 2001
You're right, i can't make a good informed decision on 4 poi. But i do know what 2 can do. The possibilities are almost limitless. Whenever i run into a block i discover something else that can be done and explored. Also, one thing that i don't like is you coming off as making it seem like 4 poi is superior than 2. Which is why im probably still arguing this point. I can probably do things with 2 that would boggle your mind, likewise goes with what you could do with 4 that would boggle my mind. One is not harder than the other, it's just what you're used to. spinning 4 and 2 are just different things, and can't be compared. Though it was fun trying to though ------------------[]Dhuong-Vu Truong==== []Dhunky ====