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Forums > Beginner Poi Moves > Basic Staff Moves Descriptions (all staffers input required)

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Charles
BRONZE Member since Jun 2001

Charles

Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Total posts: 3989
Posted:Ok Ok It's been a while now since the thread about a dedicated staff forum was begun, and there seems to be heaps of support for it, but there are several relevant issues brought up by the moderators.I suggest, instead of pleading with them, that we overcome the issues they mentioned first. IE put our money where our mouths are.As far as I know, they all contribute their time for free, and we should be grateful to them for the work they already do (inspirational music played in the background).Anyway, by far the biggest problem I have come across in all the previous staff threads has been lack of detailed descriptions and terms for moves, as well as the huge plethora of moves and variations available. I'm certain that this was an issue with poi a while ago as well, and we need to make a concerted effort, as a group, to start defining some of the basic moves so we have a common language.Bec & Elke's book is probably a good start, and I would like to us to all start making up simple, easy to remember descriptive names, starting with the video clips on this site. This way we can see exactly what is haening and there will be no misunderstandings at the begginning. We can move on to other moves later, but for now I would like us just to stick to the SINGLE STAFF VIDS OF XAEDA.If we can start talking about moves in the same way as the poi'ers, then we'll have won half of the battle, and will start learning more from this site as well... *** I suggest *** *** "Static Vertical 360" *** *** to describe the first move of Xaeda's (ie spinning in front in a circle)1. Static, because the arms and wrists stay in the same position relative to each other, only the hands are turning. This will be good in the future for verbally seperating moves where the arms/wrists change positions. Also, this does not matter how or where your fingers are or what they are doing, as we all seem to do finger moves differently, it wil be impossible to describe these fully but it doesnt matter, as long as the staff, arms and wrists are doing the same thing, it will all make sense.2. 360 as a term for a full rotation in the same airspace, with trails it would look like a plate or disk with no other movement apparent.3. Vertical, because the plate/disk mentioned above would be vertical (ie, you look from below or above, and it will only be a line)If we think about the names and how they affect future descriptions, rather than just choosing a cool sounding name, I'm certain we'll progress much faster.How about a corny catchprase too, like "Go and get STAFFed!!!" (dont choose this one, im sure you guys can do better...Please put in a suggestion for the second move, but put your reasons why you chose it in full, as above. Try not to disgree with the terms used, as long as the descriptions make sense, we should adopt it, to stop arguements...------------------Charles (INFERNO)newdolbel@hotmail.comhttp://juggling.co.nz[This message has been edited by Charles (edited 11 September 2001).][This message has been edited by Charles (edited 11 September 2001).]

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adamrice


adamrice

poo-bah
Location: Austin TX USA

Total posts: 1015
Posted:I think that coming up with commonly-understandable staff nomenclature is a good idea, but before suggesting any specific names, I'll suggest this:I believe that some of these moves already have analogues in the world of baton twirling. Rather than reinvent the wheel, perhaps we can crib some names from them. I imagine this stuff is online, somewhere.

Laugh while you can, monkey-boy

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Charles
BRONZE Member since Jun 2001

Charles

Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Total posts: 3989
Posted:I'll have a look and see what's there, but I'd like to make the terms as suitable for the BB and text-only formats as much as possible.If the baton terms are unfamiliar to most staffers here on the site, then there may be some misunderstandings and maybe even an exclusivity feel for newcomers. I like the idea of a thread with simple explanations of each term that anyone, present or future can be referred to when words terms are used. If the batons fit into this structure, it will defintely be a good idea to adopt them.If not, it definitely pays to re-invent the wheel when the terrain changes, as the old wheel won't be much use
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Thanks Adam, and if you find a site with those terms please let me know, I'd appraciate it.------------------Charles (INFERNO)newdolbel@hotmail.comhttp://juggling.co.nz


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Posted:Absolutely backing up Adam.The best (by a lightyear) firestaff twirler I have ever seen was an ex world champ baton twirler. She did things with that staff that you probly cant imagine without knowing what advanced baton twirling stuff looks like.I know you can buy really advanced baton twirling videos, but they are prohibitively expensive...I'm not rich enough for this end of the art
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but yeah - Baton twirling is as codified as gymnastics, there is a name for everything and a systematic combination naming system.Josh


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Charles
BRONZE Member since Jun 2001

Charles

Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Total posts: 3989
Posted:Cool, can you guys direct me anywhere where I can find out more about it? I'v ehad a look at a dozen sites, and emailed some for more info but haven't found any categorical listings yet...------------------Charles (INFERNO)newdolbel@hotmail.comhttp://juggling.co.nz

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Malcolm
SAPPHIRE Member since Nov 2003

Malcolm

HOP admin
Location: New Zealand

Total posts: 1023
Posted:As you may know I made up most of the names in the Staff lessons section. I am no great staff twirler and would be happy to change the descriptions online if you can come to aggrement.I do like the "helicopter" name
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but that may not be a good enough description.PS Good to see "Staff" in the topic title
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RegardsMalcolm


May your balls always burn

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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:I had a baton twirling book and found it useless in truth. The way Bec and Elke had things was much more helpful. I also used to twirl a baton (by far not champion level or anything
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) and while things may appear the same there are definately variations in how you spin a staff as opposed to a baton because of size, weight issues. If you sift through the exsisting threads on staves you will see there is something of a naming system at work. I agree that having a standard is good, I disagree with naming all the moves after baton twirling (some of the more common ones though, yes). Obviously most rolls are named after the body part they roll over, etc.Just as a forewarning, there is still no really accepted nomenclature pertaining to poi. I went to NYC to meet some firey's and let me tell you, when they said the names of the moves I had no damn idea what they were talking about, then I saw them and went "Oh yeah, that's a bfly...".. or a weave or whatever, and they read the HoP board, which is how I got in touch with them.There will still be those that have their own terms and will confuse the hell out of the rest of us!
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And Malcolm, I call it a helicopter too!
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And the one where it goes over her head to behind her back in a simple horizontal toss (no spin) I call a pop. *sigh, shrug*
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------------------Pele Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir...http://www.pyromorph.com


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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adamrice


adamrice

poo-bah
Location: Austin TX USA

Total posts: 1015
Posted:Well, I did some pretty heavy searching and surfing on "baton twirling" and came to a few conclusions:1. Most baton-twirling sites suck.2. Baton-twirling is not a self-taught activity, but is something learned in classes.3. As such, their aren't any baton sites analogous to this one.I did see a few books on technique.I have a friend that might be able to pin down some basic names for baton moves--or might even have a book. I'll ask her.

Laugh while you can, monkey-boy

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flash fire
BRONZE Member since Jan 2001

flash fire

Sporadically Prodigal
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia

Total posts: 2758
Posted:Nice one Charles!
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I'd call the #2 move a "Rotating Vertical 360"but I'm not very articulate when it comes to technicality, so perhaps someone else could come up with something better.


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Posted:errm, complicated, how about...parrelel- for moves infront or behind the bodywith clock/anticlock, or prehaps goofy/natural respectivley (one direction is gonna be easyier dependin on which hand you use, like the boardin bro's)side spin, or offset or somthing for spin at 90degrees to the body, forward or back.Horisontal- for helecopter type stuffalso usfull to have a transition definition, weather your gonna force the staff to a path or move your body instead (the taoist way ;-) )fingerspins could reasonably be called 'stalls' as they can be inserted into lots of places and hold up a move for 360/420 degrees.Also, something Ive used in teaching peaple is to think of the staff as having a 'hilt' and a 'blade'. ie when you hold it in your fist the hilt comes down from the bottom of your hand and the blade comes out the top. self explanitary?what elese? I dont think I know any more moves that couldent be handled by this, but then Im no pro, yet! a little clear discriptive writing and a simple recognised vocab is enough I recon, no kneed for high technical combo definition yet. howsat?great board guys, whish I was back in oz ahwell.....

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Posted:when teaching or explaining i've found that horizontal or verticle is the best way to begin, then backwards or forweds (thumb first or pinky first).. if you guys agree do you think it would work to have an abbreviation for these discriptions followed by the rotation?.. under/overarm .. hmmmi have names for the moves i use but they are mainly homemade and prolly wouldn't make alot of sense!Staff twirling forum would be soo benificial especially stemming from a site that has got so many ppl dedicated to the art!B. and emjoy itVikk

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Posted:... all the while kindly remaining ignorant to my TYOPS!
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JeStEr
SILVER Member since Jul 2001

enthusiast
Location: Melbourne Australia

Total posts: 214
Posted:excellent thread, well i think that starting to describe moves by which plane they are on is a good start ie: horizontal/vertical/diagnoli also agree with forwards being thumb first and reverse being when the pinkie leads.listing how many degrees' of spin are in the move is also pretty neccessary.and how about whether or not it is a figure 8 style move which converts to an 8 when spinning on the horizintal plane and and 8 on its side when spinin on the vertical plane (also how infinity is drawn).i hope this takes offcya

Trying to play the Akashic records,
but my turntables not compatible.

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Charles
BRONZE Member since Jun 2001

Charles

Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Total posts: 3989
Posted:Now we're getting somewhere...but I'd like people to put in their .02 worth, with a description of why afterwards...as in my first post.Adam & Josh - I've found no useful amterial yet to do with baton twirling, it all seems to be person2person training, which we can all do/get/learn from, but which is nearly impossible to comunicate from this site. If we all keep our eyes open, I'd love to hear if someone else finds more than I've been able to.Malcolm - Helicopter is a great term, I'd like to see it used to describe any horizontal spin above the head (including headspins). But can use the more technical terms to describe it to the newbies to HoP.IE * Righthand helicopter * Helicopter throw * Helicopter spin to waist roll etcFlashFire - thanks flash, ur the first person who has actually replied to my request at the beginning of this thread and suggested a term for lesson #2! (yay you)I was hoping to break it down even further, such as Static Vertical 360 to sidespin, behind back, sidespin and back to 360. Obviously this is a bit unweildy but each term can be given its own label in the future, ie the Static Vertical 360 could be "ROTOR", as opposed to the helicopter
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.Lexigrapher - Great stuff, too much to comment on but im sure we're all thinking the same sorts of things. I'm noting them all down and will start compiling.Also, i like both "stall" and even "fingerspin" on it's own as well, they both good.Vick - Done. Lets keep it a little fun too PINKYSPIN and THUMBSPIN seem like unambiguous terms, and we do need to sort these out quickly as you say. As it was your idea, you get a hug...(((((((Vick)))))))Jester - I'm hoping that 90, 180, 360, 540's will be enough to describe the rotations, if they are too clumsy, we could try 1/4 spin, 1/2 spin double spin etc. In fact, that seems much easier to remember, I'd like to go for that option if others agree.Keep the stuff coming guys, and please remember, please dont post because you don't like a name, evenm though the description suits the move. This will make the process much faster and there's no way to please !100% of people 100% of the time.Great work guys, this will take us some time, but will be well worth it. We've got an easier job than the poor guys who've tried to figure out written notation for juggling, at least we only have one to two objects max to describe![This message has been edited by Charles (edited 12 September 2001).]


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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:Oh sure Charles, ignore me! (joking
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)#21 I call a horiontal pop simply because of the motion of it, there is little force really being put into it other than to "pop" it up and over. This implies no spin on the staff at all and explains what position it is in....Horizontal pop backwards= basic spinless throw from front of body to backHorizontal pop forewards= (in my eyes the harder of the two)= basic spinless throw from back of body to front*these are my reasonings, not descriptions on how to*


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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Fire Princess


member
Location: London/Brighton, UK

Total posts: 130
Posted:Rotor is a great name (for forwards spinny thingywatsit)! I was thinking propellor, but rotor has a nicer ring to it. Maybe propellor for something else - one-handed?
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I also agree with 1/4 spin 1/2 spin etc (I'm presuming of a circle) rather than that degree business (takes too long to work out - gets too finnicky eg. 540 ). Great that we're getting some classification here!


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Posted:I like 1/2 ect spin idea better than degrees.i thought maybe 'rollover' for one handed spin. E.g 'under the leg with a rollover'thats all XX

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Charles
BRONZE Member since Jun 2001

Charles

Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Total posts: 3989
Posted:Sorry Pele, not ignoring you, just a little stressed at the mo, dealing with the horrible terorist news, trying to reply to all the replies without forgetting one, organise my friends wedding this Saturday (I'm best man), work at work, perform/busk after work to help save and try to practice. It seems trivial in light of recent events, but is the reason I missed your post (((((((Pele))))))(But back to the thread topic)Hmmm, this going in a completely different direction to what i had first concieved, but I'll always grab a good thing when I see it (with permission from my fiance of course
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).Looks like we have some defined terms that make sense now, hopefully we can get them listed seperately on the site in the future.Current terms so farHELICOPTER = A horizontal spin in the same space, usually above the head.ROTOR = Any vertical spin that stays in one space. Same as HELICOPTER, but perpindicular to the ground.PINKYSPIN = Finger spin that begins with the pinky, and then to the ring finger, index finger and so on. THUMBSPIN = Same as PINKYSPIN, but starting form the thumb and then traveling along pointing finger, then index and so on.*** please note, PINKY/THUMBSPINS do not need to travel along all five fingers, but the end action where the staff wraps under or over the hand to begin the motion again is seen as the end, not the beginning***FORWARDS = To lead a movement or spin with the thumb on the leading part of the staff. As in slicing a sword down in front of you.BACKWARDS = Same as FORWARDS, but with the pinky on the leading party of the staff.***my apologies to anyone who sees these terms as reversed, we've had two votes for these directions and in the interest of time, need to push on to other moves***1/2SPIN = Where the staff has only spun 180, this is regardless of any other motions or actions.FULLSPIN/DOUBLESPIN/TRIPLESPIN/ 1/4SPIN ETC= As above, 1 spin is a complete rotation and the rest as they apply.POP = Simple throw into the air, horizontal without spin unless other wise stated.ie Overhead POP is to throw from in front to behind your back or vice versa.STALL = I'd like some feedback on this, but would prefer a stall to be any move that stops the spin completely.Phew! (wipes brow), that will do for the moment, lets see if people can understand the following simple description of my usual opening moves. (I would appreciate it if people don't use this exact sequence for their routines, besides, its a bit corny anyway).*** I like to start my performance holding the staff in my open palms. I then POP in to the air about 8 metres, trying to keep it level. When it comes down I catch it in my right hand above my head, STALL it for a few seconds in a corny Saturday Night Fever pose and wait for the applause to die down.I then start with a basic ROTOR in front of my body, which I POP (while it is spinning) into the air, do a pirouette (spelling) and ...There's nothing too technical in there, but we need to start seeing the terms as moves before we can go into the technical in a straightforward fashion.Does that make sense guys?------------------Charles (INFERNO)newdolbel@hotmail.comhttp://juggling.co.nz[This message has been edited by Charles (edited 13 September 2001).]


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adamrice


adamrice

poo-bah
Location: Austin TX USA

Total posts: 1015
Posted:I'm not that experienced with the staff, so take this with many grains of salt, but:Helicopter/rotor only distinguishes two planes of rotation. I think of twirling inside a cube, where my feet are on one face, and my apparatus (poi or staff) can be along any of the other faces: front, back, left, right, overhead. Since left and right are functionally identical, we can just say both are "side-facing" or "lateral." Of course, you can twirl a staff horizontally without it being overhead, so that might as well be called helicopter or horizontal.I find the "forward/backward" term confusing, and would rather see something like "thumb-first"/"pinky-first" or "forehand"/"backhand".Also, building up names for moves from fundamental motions could result in some very long names. What would we call Xaeda's move #6 using this scheme? An "alternating front-back full-and-half spin one-handed rotor?" She calls it a "figure-8." That might be too vague, but it has the virtue of brevity.Not that there's any need to, but one could crib some nomenclature from poi also--a full-and-a-half spin could be called three beats.Near as I can tell, there are several classes of staff move: one-hand and two-hand "spins," both of which are done more or less in a static position relative to the body, "figure-8s" (as above), "sweeps" that involve major arm movement, "rolls" and "pops" that don't involve gripping the staff, "handoffs" (which seem to come in four variations, depending one whether they are thumb-by-thumb or thumb-by-pinky, and whether both palms are facing the same directions or opposite directions), "throws", and "finger-spins". And then you get weird stuff like a static spin where you turn your body in circles to bring your hands around.There are the planes of rotation high, low, left, right, front, and back (or the alternating high-low, side-side, and front-back).And there are the number of rotations before a handoff, which can be referred to by degrees, fractions of a whole rotation, or beats (where 1 beat=180°
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. I'm probably missing some stuff.I'm just trying to break down the different variables in staff movement here. I still think it makes sense to come up with short names for common moves or moves where building up the name from elements would just be too long. Xaeda's move #4, for example, is pretty easy and common, but would just take forever to describe using building-block terms--those terms would still be useful for describing the move, though.


Laugh while you can, monkey-boy

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spritie
SILVER Member since Sep 2001

spritie

Pooh-Bah
Location: Galveston, TX, USA

Total posts: 2014
Posted:How about calling the spin based on the direction of travel of the staff - such as in clockwise and counterclockwise? This of course is instead of pinkyspin and thumbspin.

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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:I like the clockwise/counterclockwise simply because of all the staffing stuff I have seen thusfar, that is the point of reference most commonly used. I do also think some moves have already essentially been named, as in the figure 8, and need no real further naming...thus one part of my routine would then read...basic figure 8, to a backhanded vertical toss on the right, to a behind the back straight pass (that is a pass without twirling), to a left handed above head helicopter spin, to an open palm helicopter toss.I like the fractional description for spins over degrees as well. I can do math but not quick enough to go...I need to fit two more rotations in here to make 980 degrees...in the middle of a spin. If I go, two more circles and then..... my simple mind will fare much better!
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So far I think you are doing a bang up job Charles!
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Tell your fiance to let you grab something real nice as a reward for all your stress!
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------------------Pele Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir...http://www.pyromorph.com


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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Charles
BRONZE Member since Jun 2001

Charles

Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Total posts: 3989
Posted:Adam - I agree completely, my last post was probably too long for each point to come across, but I have changed my mind about the initial technical descriptions (hence the use of "ROTOR" instead of "Static Vertical 360").I'd like to use the longwinded descriptions (with more simple words) to describe the named moves in a glossary type list, but feel it is far too comlicated as you stated for describing complex moves.Also just because a move is made up of several other moves, doesn't mean it needs to include all their names. It can have its own as a complete move, such as a "FIGURE 8*.As long as in the glossary, there is a long winded-step-by-step description of what is should someone not know what it is.What I want to stress is that they are recorded in such a way that people can go through the glossary, slowly understanding the bulding blocks and pieces and figure out what we are talking about. It's a big big task, and may not be possible for a while, but I would like to attempt it. In the meantime, as is already happening, we will have names for things popping up (
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- Pele).As to 'thumb-first pinky-first' I have always called these forwards and backwards, without even noticing where the fingers were, until it was mentioned in this thread. There's two others who like that approach as well, but my vote doesn't count. Can people please email me with their vote on newdolbel@hotmail.com and I'll publish the results in a weeks time. (this is to prevent dozens or hundreds of posts making this thread difficult to use, and to stop my inbox filling with replies as well.I promise not to even count them until next week, so I won't unconsciously choose a time when the forwards/backwards is winning to finalise the tally.Cheers------------------Charles (INFERNO)newdolbel@hotmail.comhttp://juggling.co.nz


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DJ Dantana
BRONZE Member since Aug 2001

veteran
Location: Stillwater, Ok. USA

Total posts: 1495
Posted:#1Move:I think the 180, 360, 540, etc, numbers should be used to describe the body turning, (like a top spins) This should be used when the foot movement is not obviouse or critical.Example: Turns would be called something like...."360 right turn" or "90 left turn"If I spin my body one rotation to the right that is "360 right turn"Reasoning: skate boarders and snow boarders use these terms. And fractions seem to be a good idea for the staff rotations, and we need something to describe torso/body rotation.#2If the turn involves body movement that requires distinct matching foot movement (as many of Xaeda's turns do), then call it a stepturn along with the number of degrees and the direction.For instance "stepturn 90 right" Example: anytime Xaeda moves her foot as she turns her body. #3Roles: anything that touches the body as it circles. These should be named after the staff movement and the body part.Example: When Xaeda does a "helicopter" around her kneck, it appears to touch her kneck during this move. Call it a "Counterclockwise Helicopter Kneck Role" (as seen from observer high over head, because most helicopter roles will be below eye level. Unfortunatly this is probably opposite from the preferable overhead helicopter notation, But we must pick one...vote?)More examples from Xaeda: A. counterclockwise (CCW)waist helicopterB. low counter-clockwise(CCW) helicopter (knee level)#5 Other simple roles:Forward side rotor hand roleCCW front rotor forearm roleProblem: all directions (CCW) counterclockwise and (CW) clockwise could be used for roles since the roles don't do figure 8's...right?But CCW/CW would get all screwy during a verticle plane figure eight. Solution:Part #A: So how about calling the in front/ in back rotor spins CCW and CW....{as veiwed by the twirler when the staff is in front of the twirler}. IE "CCW rotor hand role" or "CW rotor forearm role" Reasoning: we all usually look at a clock from this perspective, not to the side or our bodyies and......Part B: Call the Side rotor's directions by the poi terms "Forward rotor/backwards rotor" IE "forward rotor hand role" or "forward rotor bicep role"Reason: we all use this already when naming poi moves (forward 3 beat weave, 5 beat reverse weave) any way else would be confusing and detrimental to my sanity.I inadvertantly stated my oppinion on the forward/back issue, sorry. Anyways I hope I didn't jump to far ahead, but this was the simplest move I could begin to describe, next might be passes under leg and kick and stuff...(preview: overhead helicopter jump simotaneouse double front kick... or another one: forward figure 8, left 360, jump spin double-sidekick, right kick first) check this page of my web site for those last two...heh heh heh www.geocities.com/freedom_7_7/index.html look under "it's still going fool" for the first and "8beat reverse and btb crossover"(I do the same kick with staff too) for the second.[This message has been edited by santanatwo (edited 13 September 2001).]

we eat and we drink and we smoke and we try!

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Charles
BRONZE Member since Jun 2001

Charles

Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Total posts: 3989
Posted:Email sent to me by Spritie"my vote is definitely for clockwise/counterclockwise. Much easier to remember than forward/reverse and pinkyspin/thumbspin."""Spritie - Clockwise/counterclockwise is the direction the staff is spinning in relation to the the body of the spinner, this isn't in dispute and is a very clear easy description for direction of spin.(I've had to reneg on not reading these emails as I keep forgetting not to open them, sorry guys...)Forwards/Backwards is the first suggested way of whether the leading end of the staff is spun with the thumb pointing down it or the botton (pinky) end of the hand pointing down it. The hand never lets go during a 'FORWARDS/BACKWARDS' motion. Is this is hard to understand, I suggest grabbing a pole and reading this again while looking at your hand.This is basically saying which way the wrist is pointing in relation to the staff, and is very important for more complicated spins, especially with 1/2 and 1/4 spins that turn a 'corner' around the body.As an example, you could be spinning the staff counter-clockwise in front of you and clockwise behind you with the thumb end of the hand leading the movement, this creates a completely different motion and feel to leading with the pinky. I believe this move to be the basic side-to-side motion or figure eight. Most people prefert to lead with pinky or thumb, and everyone i've talked to calls leading the other way backwards.This is the complicated part of staff moves which this post is trying to deal with. I hope I'm making sense, and YES I AM BE BIASED towards calling these terms FORWARDS and BACKWARDS.If I have lost anyone or they have a much better term for it, please post below, otherwise feel free to vote as in the earlier post.OK, now - Santana2Yes yes yes 180/360 to describe body turns is great!
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love it!As to a body roll being forwards or backwards, I am confused (this is what thi s post is all about, so its a good thing I'm confused).A bicep roll in my understanding is either CLOCKWISE/ANTICLOCKWISE with the bicep as the fulcrum, or rolling down or up as in a log rolling down a hill.I'm not certain how forwards or backwards relates to this unless it is refering the clockwise motions?But this is great
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, and sorting these out is the whole reason for this thread!Thanks Santana & Spritie------------------Charles (INFERNO)newdolbel@hotmail.comhttp://juggling.co.nz


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Posted:I agree with Charles,the fwd action = leading with the index finger tip of the staffthe rvs action = leading with the pinky (I prefer little) finger.to discuss things in relation to the percieved motion of the staff is gonna be a headache. After all, we are talking about describing these things from the inside - ie from the person who is twirling the staff's perspective...whacking in staff-centric descriptions I think will lead to confusion..I also think paralell and perpendicular can be used when refering to the relationship between the staff spin plane and your body's natural stance (ie the plane set up by the alignment of your shoulders, hips and feet). So if you are spinning fwds to your right with your right hand planes paralell, it means you have a fwd action with the spin plane of the staff aligned with your body out from the right shoulder...know what I mean?Josh

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DJ Dantana
BRONZE Member since Aug 2001

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Location: Stillwater, Ok. USA

Total posts: 1495
Posted:oh shoot, I finaly figured out what the heck you guys are talking about regarding "forward vs. reverse" (I think) I may have been totaly confused. I originaly thought we were talking about the direction of staff rotation, but then I thought you guys were talking about the placement of your hand on the staff and the way you manipulate its momentum while holding the staff slightly off center (hilt and blade?)....or am I confused again? But now I think you are describing both at the same time.If this is the case, do we still need to address the direction of rotation? Because a counterclockwise rotation on the left will be a clockwise rotation on the right, and this may cause considerable confusion. That is why I was sugesting using the poi terms "forward and backwards" (as in "forward weave" and "reverse weave") to describe the direction of rotation when the staff is out to the side of your body and looking 90 degrees to the right you would see a staff spinning in a circle. I think we were talking about the same thing, and agreeing: except we didn't know it. OK, relating to poi terms for clarification...when I do a "forward weave / forward figure 8" I start with the longer end of the staff hanging down, with my thumb pointing up. My index finger/thumb describes a circle while my pinky follows in its path. This motion gives a rotation that is the same as if a poi is being spun in a "forward weave"...right? and vise versa for backwards?Please respond to this, because if I am confused there are ten other people who are even more confused...
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[This message has been edited by santanatwo (edited 14 September 2001).]


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DJ Dantana
BRONZE Member since Aug 2001

veteran
Location: Stillwater, Ok. USA

Total posts: 1495
Posted:ok, I do two different bicep roles.#1 "CCW/CW bicep role" I have my arm sticking out in front of me. Looking directly forward I see a staff spinning like a clock (CW) or in the opposite direction (CCW)#2 Forward/reverse(backwards) Forward bicep role: I have my right arm sticking out to the side. (making a long, strait line going from my left shoulder to my right shoulder to my right elbow to my right hand, as if I was being crucified like Jesus) When I look to the right I see a staff spinning in a CCW direction around my arm.Backwards bicep role: I have my right arm sticking out to the side. I look right and see a staff spinning around my right bicep in a CW direction.I hope this is clear.As to describing #1 type twirling I think it will be fine to use CCW/CW because not many people can turn their head all the way around to look behind them. Therefor a CW spin will always look CW because we don't look behind us when spinning in this plane. In adition: a CW figure 8 will always look clockwise when doing it out to the side (same plane as #1) and assuming you look strait forward.

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DJ Dantana
BRONZE Member since Aug 2001

veteran
Location: Stillwater, Ok. USA

Total posts: 1495
Posted:another move (I can't resist) Foot stall: throw staff in air (can be thrown with or with out rotation) and catch it with your foot with the staff parallel to the ground (and no longer rotating) . Then throw it back into the air with your foot and continue twirling.Reason: "stall" represents a stationary staff)...Helicopter stall: the thing Xaeda does during a helicopter. Hold one hand up high with palm facing the sky and allow the staff to spin freely in a helicopter spin(I guess this could also describe using the fingers to keep it twirling) sorry, but both uses of the word "stall" seem right to me. How about calling one a static/stationary stall (not moving) and call the other by {{{the plane (see below) the move, stall and position}}}Examples: (#1 forward stall, left side) , (#2 CCW stall front), (#3 helicopter stall overhead) We could asign numbers to the planes of rotation, I think this would clarify greatly as well as simplify descriptions...maybe, what do you guys think?Example: #1 plane: looking forward I see a staff spinning in a circle#2 plane: looking to the side I see a staff spinning in a circle#3 plane: looking up (or down) I see a staff spinning in a circle

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spritie
SILVER Member since Sep 2001

spritie

Pooh-Bah
Location: Galveston, TX, USA

Total posts: 2014
Posted:Naming the planes isn't a bad idea either. How about the forward plane, the side plane, and the horizontal plane instead of #1 plane, #2 plane, and #3 plane? I see myself forgetting which # would refer to where I was supposed to be spinning.

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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:Charles....I dug this from the archive and thought you might be interested....http://www.homeofpoi.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000065.htmlCheerios!------------------Pele Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir...http://www.pyromorph.com

Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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Ade
SILVER Member since Mar 2001

Are we there yet?
Location: australia

Total posts: 1897
Posted:Just to throw a spanner in...What you're refering to as forwards/reverse, or full spin/double spin, I was taught were called :singles and doubles (then triples and quads). Sorry to add confusion.

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