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NYC_not_PK
NYC_not_PK

One Tyred Guy
Location: Camaiore, Lu, Italy
Member Since: 13th May 2001
Total posts: 203
Posted:I just got back from a week long chem teachers conference and (surprise, surprise) we spent a bunch of time talking about glowstick chemistry and (yes, you guessed it) fire.I won't post the articles as they are way too big but I will be happy to be a resource for any questions on the topic and will send you copies if desired. [Warning, these articles can act as POWERFUL sedatives if read by those who are not science geeks...]The first article went explained, in detail, the exact chemical mechanism by which "cyalume" glowsticks glow [It's all about the 9,10-bis(phenylethynyl)antracene baby...] and includes an absorbtion and emmision spectrum for the dye.The second article contains information on burning transition metal salts (flame tests) to get pretty colors. It gives exact emmision spectra for all of the major colored ions. Which reminds me, how come more of y'all don't color your flame for the pictures you post? I mean, orange flame is SOooo last millenium...Anyway, if any other geeks out there are interested, let me know.I regret to inform you that I was unable to find any literature with information on doing a 5 beat-weave or assembling sparkly poi.
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PK is a god.. i love the Peeekster.

.:PK:. [poiinthepark founder member]


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adamrice
adamrice

poo-bah
Location: Austin TX USA
Member Since: 19th Dec 2000
Total posts: 1015
Posted:I've been told that the salts used to color flames tend to degrade the wicks, also that once you've used colored flames on a wick that the color tends to stick, so you'd better be happy with it. This is just hearsay, mind you.I'd be interested in learning more about the wicking mechanism, and how to maximize burn duration.

Laugh while you can, monkey-boy

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NYC_not_PK
NYC_not_PK

One Tyred Guy
Location: Camaiore, Lu, Italy
Member Since: 13th May 2001
Total posts: 203
Posted:It makes sense that they wouldn't leave as they are not soluable in non-polar fuel solutions. Water should take them out if you soked them... Is it OK to soak kevlar wicks in water?I'm not sure how they'd degrade the wicks, the salts are pretty tame... but Kevlar is a wierd substance that I don't know much about. Don't know if anyone outside of DuPont does...

PK is a god.. i love the Peeekster.

.:PK:. [poiinthepark founder member]


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Shibaki
enthusiast
Location: Tampa, Fl
Member Since: 28th Mar 2001
Total posts: 309
Posted:I am definitely interested in coloring my flames. I have scoured the site, and all the innumerous archives to try to put together the hows... I am NOT a science guy though. From what I gather the coloring agents wont dissolve in kero or lamp oil, which is what I use. I would consider using coleman gas; does anyone know if any of the chemicals dissolve in coleman? I wasnt able to get past this part in the archives, they start talking about methyls and all that, and I dont know if coleman is a methyl or not. eh?------------------We are not physical beings having a spiritual experience; we are spiritual beings having a physical experience.~Edgar Cayce

Wow

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Rick aka Loki
Rick aka Loki

member
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Member Since: 18th Dec 2000
Total posts: 134
Posted:Shibaki:Coleman fuel, like lamp oil and kero, is petrolium-based (or whatever one calls fossil-fuel-refined-oily-liquids). Methyl Hydrate and other methanol- or alcohol-style fuels are the only ones in which Boric Acid (the most available stuff for green flames) will dissolve. From mrmo's above post, I gather that the solubility has to do with polarity. dig it.I'm a physicist, not a chemist, so mrmo has permission to slap my bitch physicist ass if I've given any misonformation.You can get methyl hydrate from hardware stores, boric acid from drug stores.To mrmo_nyc: I'd be into taking a look at those papers. my email is dr_gizmo@hotmail.com-Rick[This message has been edited by Rick (edited 14 July 2001).]

-Rick aka Loki
oh, man, a signature?... uuh... this is like coming across wet cement... uuh, shoot, I had something clever I was saving... I hope I don't run out of sp

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NYC_not_PK
NYC_not_PK

One Tyred Guy
Location: Camaiore, Lu, Italy
Member Since: 13th May 2001
Total posts: 203
Posted:Like dissolves like, Rick. YouDaMan.[That is, yes, it is a polarity issue.]I don't have a copy that's on my computer. Only two hard copies. I'll try to email my prof and get some...[This message has been edited by mrmo_nyc (edited 14 July 2001).]

PK is a god.. i love the Peeekster.

.:PK:. [poiinthepark founder member]


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing smileSTAY SAFE! hug

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Peregrine
member
Location: Mystic, Ct. USA
Member Since: 12th Jan 2001
Total posts: 428
Posted:and now my zoologist ass will kick in just cuz i am dying to use the word hydrophilic and hydrophobic here but i dont think that really applies to dissolving salts in hydrocarbon based liquids vs. alcohol solutions since water is not really involved. darnit.Peregrineps. mr mo i am back as you can see so if you want to visit and do some exothermic reacting you're quite welcome anytime...[This message has been edited by Peregrine (edited 14 July 2001).]

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NYC_not_PK
NYC_not_PK

One Tyred Guy
Location: Camaiore, Lu, Italy
Member Since: 13th May 2001
Total posts: 203
Posted:Pere, Stick to playing with your monkeys cuz you couldn't be more wrong...
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Salts (ie anything you're using to color flames) are, by definition, lattices of positive and negative charges which will dissolve more readily in polar substances such as water, and simple alcohols. [Having polar, hydrogen bonds between electronegative oxygen and electropositive hydrogen]Salts would be less likely to dissolve in nonpolar oils.The hydrophobic/phillic arguement does hold. Hydrophobic will dissolve other hydrophobic [using temporary dipoles such as London dispursion forces AKA Vanderwaals forces] and Hydrophillic will dissolve other hydrophillic using simple dipole-dipole attraction. The presence of water is irrelevant.But hey, at least you've got your good looks. And sure, I'm down for a road trip... perhaps when we're done with those exothermic reactions we can spin some fire.
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PK is a god.. i love the Peeekster.

.:PK:. [poiinthepark founder member]


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing smileSTAY SAFE! hug

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Peregrine
member
Location: Mystic, Ct. USA
Member Since: 12th Jan 2001
Total posts: 428
Posted:well i do birds, not monkeys but hey... cant expect a chemist to be able to tell 'em apart...
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yeah so technically i am right... you can put hydrophobic things together (non-polar things with no charged dangly bits) and hydrophilic things together (charged ionic things like salts, say, or things with charged dangly bits) but doesnt the word mean water hating/loving implying you're in aqueous solution which in fuel youre not? i thought there was some other vacab word for it, i guess, of course things are still going to be hydrophilic/phobic regardless of what theyre in. or should i just lay off the crack? and what does this have to do with anything? and was that flirting?! what happened to my world's least sexy fire trailing act?!
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Pere


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NYC_not_PK
NYC_not_PK

One Tyred Guy
Location: Camaiore, Lu, Italy
Member Since: 13th May 2001
Total posts: 203
Posted:Well, you know how I get when chicks start talkin' science...
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[And yes, we usually use "polar" and "nonpolar" instead of "hydrophillic" and "hydrophobic" respectively.]


PK is a god.. i love the Peeekster.

.:PK:. [poiinthepark founder member]


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing smileSTAY SAFE! hug

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Tiki
member
Location: Douglasville, Ga, USA
Member Since: 8th May 2001
Total posts: 44
Posted:Are you two making kissy face at each other? Ah ah ah. Hehe a chemist and a zoologist, what a funny match.

1. CAUTION: Knife is very sharp. Keep out of children
2. A truly wise man never plays leapfrog with a unicorn.
3. Always remember to pillage BEFORE you burn.

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Peregrine
member
Location: Mystic, Ct. USA
Member Since: 12th Jan 2001
Total posts: 428
Posted:kissy faces? i thought this was a chemistry discussion
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Pere


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Tiki
member
Location: Douglasville, Ga, USA
Member Since: 8th May 2001
Total posts: 44
Posted:It's all chemistry hon. Any zoologist knows all about those monkey pheremones.

1. CAUTION: Knife is very sharp. Keep out of children
2. A truly wise man never plays leapfrog with a unicorn.
3. Always remember to pillage BEFORE you burn.

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jamie
member
Location: Hillsborough, San Francisco, C...
Member Since: 16th Jul 2001
Total posts: 21
Posted:i have some glowstick questions, say you have a 12 hour glowstick:a) does it glow with the same intensity for all 12 hours, if not how does intensity change over time?b) if you place your glowstick in the freezer (say 20 degrees F) how much is the rate of light emitance slowed?c) if you used your glowstick for an hour and then placed it in the freezer for 23 hours(and repeated until glowstick was died) how many times would you get to use it?d) how come only orange glowsticks can be high intensity?e) how much glow could a glowchuck chuck if a glow chuck could chuck glow?

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kmactane
member
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 25th Apr 2001
Total posts: 97
Posted:Okay, so you can't dissolve these color salts in kero or lamp oil, and you can't dissolve them in coleman fuel or white gas either. You can only dissolve them in stuff like methylated spirits and denatured alcohol. Okay, got that.But, what if... you were to take your color salts, dissolve them in denatured alcohol or methylated spirits, and then mix that into your kero or white gas?Would that work, or would it just cause the salts to suddenly precipitate out into a sediment on the bottom of your mixing container?

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NYC_not_PK
NYC_not_PK

One Tyred Guy
Location: Camaiore, Lu, Italy
Member Since: 13th May 2001
Total posts: 203
Posted:The problem is kerosine is a mixutre of many different chemicals so I don't think there is a definate answer. I got Doug out in Jersey trying stuff with Boric Acid and I've got a tuna fish can myself on the ledge of my appartment with a boric acid/rubbing alcohol mixture as we speak. I think, at this point, it will have to be trial and error. I'd also like to try a "shake and bake" method sometime. Soak in lamp oil, put wicks in paper bag with boric acid. Shake. Light. Should work, no? I'm on it...

PK is a god.. i love the Peeekster.

.:PK:. [poiinthepark founder member]


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing smileSTAY SAFE! hug

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jamie
member
Location: Hillsborough, San Francisco, C...
Member Since: 16th Jul 2001
Total posts: 21
Posted:mrmo? was that not the kind of glowstick information you learned about? if you don't know or don't wana answer let me know, but ignoring me really hurts my feelings
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NYC_not_PK
NYC_not_PK

One Tyred Guy
Location: Camaiore, Lu, Italy
Member Since: 13th May 2001
Total posts: 203
Posted:Sorry Jamie! That's not quite what we studied in my class so I thought that was a general question rather than one directed at me. But I do have all the answers! (I thought I'd let someone else try to field it first since I've been posting a bit excessively lately...)We discussed this a while back.MOST chemical reactions double in speed for each 10 degree celcius (figure 20 degree F) difference in temperature. So theoretically, generally, approximately, etc.. from room temp to freezer will give you 2^3 or 8 times the life.Unfortunately, all of this beautiful chemistry goes right out the window. In my experience glowsticks' glow is based solely on how fresh they are. And since there is no "born on" date on them you really have no idea. I've cracked "identical" sticks and had one last 6 hours and the other last 12. Last night my left green stick lasted hours less than my right one. Same temp, same conditions.I've never had a 12 hour glowstick last 12 hours. Even from glowstickfactory who swears they last for 12-18 hours.In conclusion, Jamie:a) No. It will slowly diminish over time. They do put stuff in it to make it react more equally. The exact opposite is true for "High intensity"... they put stuff in it to make it shoot it's load all at once. (Very scientific term, I know.)b) Theoretically, approximately 8 times... The paper I read said that one guy had it glowing after keeping it in the freezer months later. And I can't keep mine up for more than 8 hours...
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c) Placing it in the freezer doesn't stop the reaction, just slows it. I'd say it depends on freshness and color of glowstick.d) I think I saw other colors, no? If not, then I dunno... this course was only Intro to glowsticks... we didn't get to advanced glowsticking. It does have to do with the increased intensity of the reaction. I have a suspision that if you crack them when they are warm (like in your pocket when you've been dancing for a while) they will react quicker and brighter.e) All of the above.I hope that this helps... I think that since you'll never really know if the glowstick that you bought was sitting in some 100 degree warehouse for two weeks it will always be a gamble. Sorry if I neglected you.Also, if you ladies could take a number or start a sign up sheet I could better serve you all.(NO HE DIDN"T JUST SAY THAT!)


PK is a god.. i love the Peeekster.

.:PK:. [poiinthepark founder member]


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing smileSTAY SAFE! hug

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Peregrine
member
Location: Mystic, Ct. USA
Member Since: 12th Jan 2001
Total posts: 428
Posted:you mean i'm not the only one for you? *sob*I like the shake and bake idea. would it work like sparklers if you did it in magnesium shavings i wonder? and what if you ground colored sparklers up and mixed them into fuel...surely they must use the same salts we're talking about here for color?stay tuned for the next episode of "as the poi turns" for more sordid HOP gossip
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(and you have neglected to post your email anywhere so i can't give you my number anyhows, silly science guy...oh wait TAKE a number i got it...)Pere


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jamie
member
Location: Hillsborough, San Francisco, C...
Member Since: 16th Jul 2001
Total posts: 21
Posted:thank you so much mrmo, you've been very helpfull, and saved alot of trail and error, so, if the 20 degrees F thing holds true then you should be able to use the 12 hour glowstick as follows:1 hour of use in 80 degrees (11 hours left)23 hours in 20 degrees (8.125 hours left)1 hour of use (7.125 hours left)23 hours in freezer (4.25 hours left)1 hour of use (3.25 hours left)23 in freezer (22.5 minutes left)22.5 minutes of use (zero left)so you'd get to use the glowstick three and a half times? is this how it works? if you have any other cool glowstick info, let me know, i love this stuff.

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NYC_not_PK
NYC_not_PK

One Tyred Guy
Location: Camaiore, Lu, Italy
Member Since: 13th May 2001
Total posts: 203
Posted:True in theory... Oh so many things are.
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Not sure oh the reality of it. I really think it goes back to glowstick freshness and the randomness of getting a good batch of glowsticks.


PK is a god.. i love the Peeekster.

.:PK:. [poiinthepark founder member]


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing smileSTAY SAFE! hug

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Rick aka Loki
Rick aka Loki

member
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Member Since: 18th Dec 2000
Total posts: 134
Posted:Oooh! I wanna play flaming science geek, too!
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I tried a form of "shake and bake" once with coleman's, and the problem was three-fold: 1)it only ends up on the surface, so it burns off quickly and you're left with regular fuel, 2)the camp fuel, unlike the meths which can be bluish, has a bright orange flame which overpowers the green of the boric acid and 3)I accidentally mixed up the boric acid bag and the actual shake-and-bake bag, so while I was outside wondering why my poi smelled like chicken, my roommate was inside disinfecting his mouth with chicken-a-la-pyro.Peregrine, I'm your long-lost brother. I was in a coma since the car accident that separated the family when we were four, and I've spent the last two years trying to hitchhike to Mystic from a small bamboo hospital in Guam.Tune in next week, as mrmo asks, "Pere, do you still love me even though I blew up your father's yaught while trying to make my own fireworks?"... Like sands through the hourglass and into your shorts, these are the days of our lives.may your momentum be conserved.-Rick


-Rick aka Loki
oh, man, a signature?... uuh... this is like coming across wet cement... uuh, shoot, I had something clever I was saving... I hope I don't run out of sp

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Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted:Pere, with the sparkler stuff...which if the box/bag they are in takes a beating falls off the wire, have you seen how they are caked with that powder? That would be loads of sparklers for one wick head.Wouldn't the wick shape/style count in the shake and bake method as well? It seems to me that the nooks and crannies in the castle folded Kevlar *should* take on more powder and hold it in interesting places as opposed to the smooth surface of a tube or rolled wick. Which is why I still think little stips of magnesium inserted/sewn into castle kevlars would be really interesting for a quick flash.What about a shake and bake tpe thing after the poi are lit, just for extra kick? A metal pan with some powder in it? It wouldn't last long, as rick says but it'd make for interesting addition. That and if the pot were to catch on fire, it would look cool, so long as well away from audience.So those are the ideas from my completely non-geek perspective.Next time will the unsuspecting HoPpers flames be stifled by the deluge of cheese about to overwhelm them? Will Pere realise the man of her dreams is really Rick, who finds that he has been misled and is in truth Mr.Mo's son? Only on the Bright and the Burning.......------------------Pele Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir...www.pyromorph.com

Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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Peregrine
member
Location: Mystic, Ct. USA
Member Since: 12th Jan 2001
Total posts: 428
Posted:fortunately, pele recovered fully from being possessed by satan after being exorcised by the handsome and questionably celibate italian priest fernando (a formerly unmentioned character, brought in as eye candy), only to discover her half cousin rick was bitten by a tree snake in guam which caused him to kidnap the love child of pere and mrmo, which turned out to actually be himself in a strange twist of existential fate....just keeping you updated as the poi turns....they have a magazine for this stuff you know
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Pere


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Peregrine
member
Location: Mystic, Ct. USA
Member Since: 12th Jan 2001
Total posts: 428
Posted:fortunately, pele recovered fully from being possessed by satan after being exorcised by the handsome and questionably celibate italian priest fernando (a formerly unmentioned character, brought in as eye candy), only to discover her half cousin rick was bitten by a tree snake in guam which caused him to kidnap the love child of pere and mrmo, which turned out to actually be himself in a strange twist of existential fate....just keeping you updated as the poi turns....they have a magazine for this stuff you know
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Pere


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Posted:To quote South Park's Cartman;"This is getting F#ckin' wierd."
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Josh[This message has been edited by [Josh] (edited 19 July 2001).]


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Peregrine
member
Location: Mystic, Ct. USA
Member Since: 12th Jan 2001
Total posts: 428
Posted:the scary thing is, there are soapie plots like that....Pere

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skapegoat
member
Location: golden, co
Member Since: 14th Jul 2001
Total posts: 3
Posted:i would be interested in a copy of those science papers as well. i am a chemical engineer, so not only can i make stuff up about polarity and dissolving, but about boundary layers forming as the poi spins as well. my email is skapegoat_dnvr@yahoo.com. i would prefer an e-mailed version, but if those aren't available, you can let me know what to do for getting a hard copy.as for the boric acid, i have found that though i do get a very green flame, the denatured alcohol does not seem to burn as well as coleman fuel. (i have yet to try methylated spirits.) if i try spinning at my regular speed, the flames go out. since we're talking science here, i would suggest the reason for this is due to the alcohol being more volatile than the coleman fuel, such that at high spin rates it evaporates from the wick surface faster than it is transferred to the surface by diffusion from the wick. in theory, mixing Boric acid saturated denatured alcohol in Coleman fuel should work to some extent. the problem with this is that coleman fuel burns with your standard orange flame, while denatured alcohol has a clear flame. so when the Boric acid is dissolved in the denatured alcohol, there is no other colour for the leetle boric acid crystals to compete with, while if dissolved in Coleman fuel it would probably result in some mixture of green and orange.

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NYC_not_PK
NYC_not_PK

One Tyred Guy
Location: Camaiore, Lu, Italy
Member Since: 13th May 2001
Total posts: 203
Posted:As it turns out my prof seems to be out of town for the summer so I only have my hard copy. I'll try emailing her again to locate a file version of both. I may not be so lucky though...Also, I must kill my evil twin but that shouldn't be as tough...

PK is a god.. i love the Peeekster.

.:PK:. [poiinthepark founder member]


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing smileSTAY SAFE! hug

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Rick aka Loki
Rick aka Loki

member
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Member Since: 18th Dec 2000
Total posts: 134
Posted:Having been driven insane by the frustration of realizing he'd kidnapped himself, and by the horrible mental barrage of having been tortured by himself for three weeks in a lonely cabin somewhere in Canada, Rick had created a robotic doppelganger for mrmo and set it loose on the free and unsuspecting world.Mrmo finally caught up to his evil twin after following its trail of arson, broken hearts, and Taco Bell(tm) wrappers to the steps of Peregrine's large and lavishly beautiful home (don't these people ever live in trailers?) for the final showdown.Pere waited with nervous excitement inside with Pele, who had learned from Malcolm that Myst's mistress Kat had heard from her half-sister that mrmo was considering making a "big change" in his life. This could only mean one thing... Weenie roast.Meanwhile, Draevon was still unheard from, being presumed dead after being lost at sea...

-Rick aka Loki
oh, man, a signature?... uuh... this is like coming across wet cement... uuh, shoot, I had something clever I was saving... I hope I don't run out of sp

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Posted:ROTFL
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Josh


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