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Forums > Social Chat > Peace. Only through God?

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:On another thread I put forward the view that inner peace could be attained through non religious means.

Raymund Phule disagreed, as do many religious people who may believe, for example, that true peace can only be found through Jesus Christ.

So I thought I'd start a new thread, here's the relevant part of my quote, followed by Rays reply :-

quote:Originally posted by onewheeldave:
Life without a God is not meaningless, meaning and purpose can be found, for example, within oneself, and through acts of true compassion.

The miracle of us existing as conscious beings is in no way diminished if it is the case that we were not created by a God. and

quote:Originally posted by Raymund Phule:
This I personally disagree with.

However Yes you can find peace within yourself, but it wont be complete. What if there was more, what if you could be more peaceful? What if the only way to do that is via the Grace of God? Would you want it?

[ 23. October 2003, 11:57: Message edited by: onewheeldave ]


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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tiamat_22580


tiamat_22580

I will kill all mods
Location: mods suck

Total posts: 210
Posted:i agree with Raymund Phule , but pesonally i feel this coversation can last too long for me so i cant say if i will fallow up on this, besides lately i'm really busy.

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Dio


Dio

HoP Mechanical Engineer
Location: OK, USA

Total posts: 729
Posted:Some things only have as much value to us as that which we attach to them...

Some needs may exist only because we believe we need them...

Some people may not even be aware of their needs that aren't being met...

What we want and what we need are seldom identical...

Hard to see, the answer is


What hits the fan is not evenly distributed.

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Grayforth
BRONZE Member since Sep 2003

member
Location: Santa Barbara

Total posts: 42
Posted:ha! I am sorry, but I believe that religion only breads chaos. No offense to anyone who is religious believe what you like... its a free country... wait, countries. (If you can not tell I am in the states). I tried the religion thing, but christianity was not for me. Excuse me for being so blunt, but I disagree with Raymund Phule. All he is bringing up is what if's, which are useless, I believe that the only way to really be at peace is to be satisfied with yourself, and the world around you.

[ 23. October 2003, 14:14: Message edited by: Grayforth ]


In this world of tears, you need a sense of humor.

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Aalathea
GOLD Member since Oct 2002

member
Location: Massachusetts, US

Total posts: 80
Posted:From personal experience, i think the only way to find peace is to be at peace with yourself. the rest of the world is a different matter.
You may be able to escape the world through a change of locale or something like that, but you can never really escape your own self for very long. No amount of religion can teach you to accept yourself, or to listen to what is best for youself. And if you can't do that, then you will not be able to function. I think you have to find yourself to be at a relative peace, not god. Because fighting who you are gets awfully tiresome after a while and only begets more dissatisfaction and dislike of others.
(obviously my own opinion/experience, feel free to disagree)


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i8beefy2
GOLD Member since Mar 2003

i8beefy2

addict
Location: Ohio, USA

Total posts: 674
Posted:Lelliel, have you been reading "Whereever you go, there you are"? If not you might enjoy it.

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Dentrassi
GOLD Member since Apr 2003

Dentrassi

ZORT!
Location: Brisbane

Total posts: 3044
Posted:42.

"Here kitty kitty...." - Schroedinger.

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soldari


soldari

busy-tofu!
Location: montreal: bagel capital

Total posts: 133
Posted:To start; religion is a touchy subject. Anything we get out of it is purely subjective (this used to say objective... silly me), as is also the following opinion.

Some say that true peace cannot be acheived without God. Other say the same about drugs. I beleive both of these can do good, and harm, onto the people who use them and surround them. It is foolish to think that because everyone will find peace in the same thing, let alone the same god

IMO, the people who get-off on religion find something there that they don't have access to otherwise, they find this 'inner-peace'... they follow the teachings/preachings of some guy and feel like they've done something good.

What if... you had this thing called consciousness, or moral ethics, and you knew, without being told what was good or bad by some guy, that it was good -say acts of true compassion.

...I do this thing called life, and when i lead it well, I am trully at peace. And if there is an entity/god/godess then it would probably be most pleased with this.

I want to close this by saying, if you feel you've acheived true-peace, then I am glad for you. Just be aware that the path that leads there is different for all.

Food for though: What if there's more to life than God?

quote: Lelliel, have you been reading "Whereever you go, there you are"? If not you might enjoy it.
And I thought that was from Buckaroo Banzai

[ 25. October 2003, 02:45: Message edited by: soldari ]


there is no better way to say I love you than with the gift of a spatula!

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i8beefy2
GOLD Member since Mar 2003

i8beefy2

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Location: Ohio, USA

Total posts: 674
Posted:Objective? Don't you mean subjective (Being based on your own perceptions and taken for absolute objective proof)? I agree that religion is a touchy subject for some people, but I don't see why that should be so. If that religion is complete and correct, then it should be able the answer any question brought to it shouldn't it? Unless you take an evolutionary view of spirituality/religion as some eastern cultures do (Incorporating other's gods / ideas, etc.), any finalistic religion should be able to withstand any onslaught of ontological assults. Christianity is one of thos religions, AND it does this satisfactorally (Is that a word?) to anyone inside of that faith based viewpoint by explaining everything off as God's will. There was another comment about being able to do the same thing to a shoe... I mean I guess you could argue that all of existence is here in order for that shoe to have something to step on, and ohhhh those debates are fun....

Anyway, peace is a relative term. What do you consider peace? And I'm not playing devils advocate here, I think you need to define the terms to play the game. Peace for a Taoist is sitting on the grass and enjoying existence, and in that state there is nothing greater, and if there IS it is beyond his current experiential world, so there is no reason for him to ponder it and hurt his mind. For a Buddhist Peace is found in not wanting ANYTHING, a total indifference almost. After all, as they would argue I think here, it is only your attachment to your self, which is false anyway, that you must have a God-concept. Without that attachment at all, anything can be overcome, even death, as without attachment, you are not losing anything.

Further, I think if you compared the number of those people who do believe in a judgement scenario to the people that don't, you will find many more people who exist in peacefull states in the latter than the former... the evidence points to peace not only being acheivable without a God-concept, but is actually more easily facilitated by it.

Haha ohhh fun topic. It's one of my favortie arguments: What is heaven for a Buddhist? What is Hell for a Taoist? Neither makes logical sense, so how can you convert these people who can sense no value in a Heaven scenerio? In fact, I think they have a name for it, something like Maya or something like that, the desires. Which are taught must be overcome in the Tibettan Book of the Dead.

Oh and if you die a good, pious man and are waiting in Heavens waiting line and trip the guy in front of you, can you get condemned for that? I mean you are judged on your "earthly deeds" aren't you? So technically you could torture people to amuse yourself in the line and they couldn't hold any of that against you.


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Grayforth
BRONZE Member since Sep 2003

member
Location: Santa Barbara

Total posts: 42
Posted:Religion is obviously an opinion. There are over 10,000 different religions that are practiced in this day and age. It is a touchy subject because very few people accept all religions as correct. Therefor most people have their beliefs, and if you disagree you are wrong. This is an arguement you cannot win. That does not mean that people should not look at it subjectively, because I find it fun to argue over religion... makes people think.

In this world of tears, you need a sense of humor.

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Eera
BRONZE Member since May 2003

old hand
Location: In a test pit, Mackay

Total posts: 1107
Posted:I kind of resent being told that my life is not complete without what is to me the kind of amorphous concept of God.

I believe in treating others as you would yourself. I believe in living with honour. I believe in fire and rocks and water. I do not believe that there's some uber-power poking its nose into our lives like some old maid and sitting in judgement upon us.

I respect the rights of others to think so, and I expect to be allowed to live with my own beliefs without anyone screaming "Convert now or you'll burn in Hell forever!" at me.


There is a slight possibility that I am not actually right all of the time.

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Dom
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK

Total posts: 3009
Posted:Lots of good opinions. Leliel's post is a really good point.

If you're religious then God is an important part of your life and you won't be able to find peace without your belief in God. However if you don't believe in God you obviously don't need that belief. Usually there's another belief system - even if it's just a belief in the randomness of it all.

The path to inner peace isn't important - it's the end result that's worthy.


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Prometheus


Prometheus

Diamond In The Rough
Location: Richmond, Virginia

Total posts: 459
Posted:Lately, it seems the only way to find peace is to NOT discuss religion...

Dance like it hurts; Love like you need money; Work like someone is watching.

Never criticize someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes. That way, when you DO criticize them, you are a mile away, and you have their shoes.

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dromepixie


dromepixie

veteran
Location: Florida

Total posts: 1463
Posted:All is and isn't.



JUGGLEwithyourmind!

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frostypaw


Great balls of fire
Location: Tunbridge Wells, Kent

Total posts: 643
Posted:Definately NOT only through 'god'.

quote:However Yes you can find peace within yourself, but it wont be complete. What if there was more, what if you could be more peaceful? What if the only way to do that is via the Grace of God? Would you want it?This shows a great christian conceit.

What if there was more, what if you could be more peaceful? What if the only way to do that is via the Easter Bunny? Would you want it?

It's obviously nonsense when you switch one arguably non-existent being for another, and to be so high-and-mighty that you think you've got it and can look down on everyone else.......

Peace - through respecting one another - not through "my beliefs are better than your beliefs"

havn't we had enough of the religion thing yet? it's the world against one or two people who aren't listening - waste of effort.


I can SEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

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Dunc
GOLD Member since Aug 2003

Dunc

playing the days away
Location: The Middle lands

Total posts: 7263
Posted:I think the funniest thing is all the God (christian) lovers insist on sprouting the bible everywhere they turn yet they read a book that has been manipulated and changed over a couple thousand years by various people (for various reasons such as parsonal gain, personal opinion, stupidity) turning it away from the original meaning and adding whatever parts they like.
The meaning of most religions is...(be they god based or not)....as Bill and Ted once said..

"Be Good To One Another"

Would a God really let it's representatives (Preists, Vicars etc) abuse and rape children? steal from parishiners? And have their bosses hide them in another country because they have the influence/power over government and authority?!
Would a God really let people believe in different versions of the same religion and thus have wars to see who's right when really only the ones who die might/might not learn the answer. Some God that is! Yet if an anally raped child who suffered at the hands of a preist for 10 years unsurprisingly has not only a disbelief but a hatred of Christianity (to merely use the most popular wester relegion) doesn't have faith in God it will get sent to hell or purgatory or some other nasty place where heaven isn't an option. TOSH!!!

Believe in anything except an organised overlord, but mostly, believe in yourself. Never give up on yourself, or those you love.

Of course unless "GOD" is an assh0le and in that case who would want to go to Heaven?!!!?

my two bits, l8rs


Let's relight this forum ubblove

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Flipmodius


member
Location: Halifax, N.S

Total posts: 103
Posted:i am a religous studies student at st. marys university. until i took this class i was completly aganst religon. then we started studying hundusim. and learned about buddah.

buddah tells us that one does not find enlightenment in "god" but we find nirvana in ourselves.


some will understand. -buddah

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Kat
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Kat

Pooh-Bah
Location: London

Total posts: 2211
Posted:Amen Flipmodius



Come faeries, take me out of this dull world, for I would ride with you upon the wind and dance upon the mountains like a flame.

- W B Yeats

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.Morph.
SILVER Member since Mar 2002

.Morph.

addict
Location: Lancashire, UK

Total posts: 669
Posted:I agree with Leleil & Dom in that there is no singular path towards inner peace, seeking it is a noble path. Problems arise when followers of their own, or a common (religion), path choose to deny the value of any others.

Whether to walk, run, job, run backwards, skip (etc) to catch a bus should be irrelevant if everyone just wants to catch the bus.


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ieuan
BRONZE Member since Sep 2003

holy man
Location: Upstate, NY

Total posts: 110
Posted:I believe that complete peace can only be found in having a relationship with God. There is a need for pure love, pure light and pure acceptance that in inherent and needed in everyone. Only by connecting to the source, can you truly, completly and painfully honestly be at peace.

Peace, Love, and Poi to all

J


Gather your harps from the willow trees, dust off the ancient strings. Call the bards and prophets, let them sing healing and freedom. Let light and love flow from the strings, colors of revelation.

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Dom
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK

Total posts: 3009
Posted:The thing is, many people find "pure love, pure light and pure acceptance" without God. The question is, if you can find all this without blind faith is your inner peace stronger than someone who relies on God?

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

Enter a "Title" here:
Location: San Diego California

Total posts: 2905
Posted:Grayforth, "what ifs" are an excellent way of learning about human psycology.

Leliel, thats your personal opinion. Thats cool, I disagree.

Eera, so you would get upset if someone said, hey did you know you can get fries (chips) with that burger?

Dom as you and I both know there is a big differnece between what you want and what you need. Our opinions just differ on what the definition of those two words are. In my opinion, even if you dont believe in God, you still need him.


Frosty, you really need to stop doing that. quote: Peace - through respecting one another How are you showing respect to me when you say things like that?

Custom Bug, It was Bill that said "Be excellent to eachother."

Man is foulable, man isnt perfect. However you are roping a few bad apples in with all the other good ones.

You guys arnt cathcing a buss, you really shouldnt underestimate what you are dealing with.

Ieuan, thanks for your words


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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ieuan
BRONZE Member since Sep 2003

holy man
Location: Upstate, NY

Total posts: 110
Posted:But if people are truly honest with themselves(and there may be years of prejudice, preconceived ideas, and walls that have been put up by pain and hurt to peel away) then they would honestly have to say that they are not truly at peace with themselves. Why is there so much depression and suicide? I know cuase I was there for two years. As far as blind faith I think you answered it yourself. What is easier to believe and trust in, something that you define as finite with rules and guidelines, or something that is not able to be defined or put in a box that can be humanly explained? Something that can be seen. I believe that we are all spiritual beings. I cannot trust the physical because it is as fleeting as morning fog. I am spirit dwelling in physical form for a short time. I cannot speak for anyone but myself(and I don't want or claim to) but I have had encounters on more than one occasion in my life with a God that has more love for me than I could ever receive in this short span lifetime. No matter what I do, He still loves me and I will always be accepted. Unconditional, pure and unadulterated love. Where else can I find that?Just my two cents, (I think that makes four now). Anyway, I just want everyone to know that I respect and honor everyone's thoughts, ideas, etc. I'm not saying that anyone is wrong this is just what I believe to be true

J


Gather your harps from the willow trees, dust off the ancient strings. Call the bards and prophets, let them sing healing and freedom. Let light and love flow from the strings, colors of revelation.

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Dunc
GOLD Member since Aug 2003

Dunc

playing the days away
Location: The Middle lands

Total posts: 7263
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Raymund Phule:
Custom Bug, It was Bill that said "Be excellent to eachother."
Man is foulable, man isnt perfect. However you are roping a few bad apples in with all the other good ones.
You guys arnt cathcing a buss, you really shouldnt underestimate what you are dealing with.
A few bad apples, surely these are bad apples that god 'allowes'?! "He" must think it more suitable to have abuse, war, famine, desease etc etc. Is this really a God we all aspire to spend eternity with?! Oh sorry, I forgot, it's just because Adam decided to eat an apple and the world is only 6000 years old. yeah, that's it. God is light, god is love, yatter yatter yatter 'belief' only gives faith to those who can't beleive in themselves and think there needs to be something else, and if that works then fine but it's because they can't accept that death is the end. And it could be, no-one can argue with that cuz you don't know till you die. ANd you may not even find out then! Can anyone remember anything before they were born?...Was anyone aware they didn't exist until they existed? No. Will it matter afterwards...not really.

Have faith and belief in yourself, that's what counts really. God is about as useful as an imaginary friend, an imaginary friend that someone else gives you a book/script whatever and tells you to live your life by.

And by the way, I believe the person Jesus existed, and was an extrordinarily gifted man/Jew, I just think his life story has been surronded by balony, except that bit between him being born and being about 25 cuz that part seems extreemly lacking in the bible!
There's far more credibility in other religons, it's just their fighters weren't as good during those great Christian invasions. How loving murder and desposal of other faiths/beleifs can be when its dressed up nice. Small and large populations got taken over, murdered and forced to give up their own beliefs against their will....all in the name of God.

A Few Bad Apples?????


Let's relight this forum ubblove

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ieuan
BRONZE Member since Sep 2003

holy man
Location: Upstate, NY

Total posts: 110
Posted:Custom,

you can't blame 'God' because people decide to be evil. People have a choice to do what they want. otherwise we'd all just be robots and what fun would life be then? Sorry if I upset you. Things like this get very deep and there are many factors involved. That will be my last two cents(for a total of 6).

Peace and Poi-

J


Gather your harps from the willow trees, dust off the ancient strings. Call the bards and prophets, let them sing healing and freedom. Let light and love flow from the strings, colors of revelation.

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Mr Hands


member
Location: Cardiffy, Londony places

Total posts: 64
Posted:I think the last few entries are a magnificent example of religions failure to achieve a peace that can endure for all of us...

I feel the problem starts when you subscribe to a religion, because regardless of how you feel about yourself and others, you are accepting a dogmatic creed that will inevitabley conflict with another's religion, or even with an athiest's, as we have seen. Aside from the very well documented/afore mentioned/philosophical problems with whatever religion (largely propgated through endless revisions over the course of time), all you have left is probably what whoever jesus was taught: 'hey, just chill, it ain't worth the trouble, be happy, relax, and in the end: it'll all pan out fine'... I mean, in the long run, thats pretty much what he said without the bollucks that that has been kicked up around the legend since then. If you're going to allow yourself to get seriously upset by what someone else believes, howEVER much it disagrees with your own beliefs then you're probably investing a little too much of yourself in it and not enough in the people around you.
From a personal view, I havne't stopped believing in a god, I simply don't want to invest any time worshiping him, 'Cos whats with those commandments!?!??! The first two are the ravings of an insecure cult leader (worship no one else but me! Worship nothing else but me!!!! oh, and uh... don't covet thy neighbours' ass)...

So as the gospel sayeth... 'chill dudes'


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i8beefy2
GOLD Member since Mar 2003

i8beefy2

addict
Location: Ohio, USA

Total posts: 674
Posted:As a subscriber to the Taoist path, allow me to intercede on this good and bad apple thing. There are no good and bad apples, there is only the apple. All these apples are in various states of decay / good or bad states. Its a continuum. Where do you draw the line for those that are good enough to be in heaven and those that are not. It makes no logical sense, as good / bad is a relative dicotomy. Without the saint, how do you call a man a sinner?

Further, I can sit back and say "this is bad" or "this is good", but I am just extending my judgement onto it. If you lived your whole life not being judged by ANYONE do you think you would judge? Or would you have a Taoist outlook and rather enjoy every possible opportunity of life, whether or not someone else considers it good or bad?

And even more so, if you can bring yourself to abide in total satisfaction with your current situation, why do you NEED to believe thatthere is something else? It is my BELIEF that God was created as the judgemental diety he has been portrayed as in the OT because you had this group of people who had been kicked around their entire history, and they needed to believe that their attackers would be judged by someone more powerful, since they didn't have the power to do so themselves. Then along comes Jesus and the NT, which in MY INTERPETATION says, "No, no, no, that is all wrong, your God loves you unconditionally, he does not judge." There is no hell in my view, as from a Taoist perspective it can not exist. Similarly there can be no heaven, as without a hell, there is nothing for it to exist to in relation. What is left then? A reunion with God, or the underlying reality, or whatever seems to be the only viable option (For me), which negates the whole concept of an individual soul altogether. Jesus can be interpetated this way to: "Love thy neighbor as yourself." Why? Because he is yourself and hurting yourself is silly.

Similar to many Eastern Philosophies, which are not lacking in basic morality, they just base it off this idea instead of "Don't do this or I will damn you."

Also, if there were something higher than the peace acheived through worshiping your God, would you want it Ray? That lanes gotta work both ways, and I know you don't because you believe that your God is the highest. However Buddhists would say that enlightenment is higher than an attachment to anything, including a God or a doctrine of any sort, so why would you NOT try and search after the higher good?

Judgement, correct? That is the irreconciable difference between the philosophies. You have to live in fear your whole life of judgement though, whereas I do not. My freedom seems more free than yours in this way. Here is my view in a nutshell of God, which I think others have pointed out. If God is judgemental as you hold along with the OT (Which you have said no longer counts Ray), then I don't want to be in heaven with him... just as I don't like being around judgemental people here. If God only cares that you believe in him and worship him, then he is an egomaniac and I still do not want to be in heaven with him as those people are displeasing to me here. If my union with it is not avoidable upon death, then there is nothing I could do about it anyway and my worries are pointless. If he doesn't exist at all, my worries are even less important. And if I trully suceed on my Taoist path, then all of these (Which are judgements on my part) are equally pointless, and whatever happens will make no difference as it will be eternal bliss for me, just as this life will have become.

Any way I look at it, I come out a winner. Call me an optimist, but given enough time I can suceed on my path no matter what it is, and even if I don't suceed until a few centuries in the hell that I don't believe in, hell will cease to be hell at that point and will be my heaven, so it will not matter anymore. Peace can be found in anything, God, heaven, or hell, etc.


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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

Enter a "Title" here:
Location: San Diego California

Total posts: 2905
Posted:Wow CB some pretty harsh words there, I really do feel sorry for you. Your life must be really bad right now. Perhaps you should seek some sort of help.

You really dont know what your talking about, so I wont hold that against you.

Beefy, just an apple? No good apple no bad apple. So does that mean that there is no wrong or right? No crime? No death no life? No sick no well?

Your interpritation of the NT is not only wrong but really really lame. God does love you unconditionally, He loves you even if you went to hell, and He does judge you. Perhaps you should read the NT again. This time, try opening your eyes


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

Enter a "Title" here:
Location: San Diego California

Total posts: 2905
Posted:Some stuff to add...

I said the laws of the OT have been replaced. You do not have to live by them, that is all. I didnt say that they were not important and I didnt say anything about God's judgment.

Believe what you want but when you find out that your Taoist philosiphy is holding up about as well as a soup sandwich... think of this conversation and how long I have told you what the truth is.

I know I am not wrong, but if I was... well it wouldnt matter cause I would just be worm food.

Call me an optomist but on the one hand I win, on the other... nobody does so who cares!


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Cerberus


member
Location: Canada, NS

Total posts: 23
Posted:Ray: I can see what you are saying but I don't think that many people appreciate you trying to convert them into christianity, religion is not for everyone. Some people find believing in a God/Godess makes them more complete, while others find that ~not~ believing in a God/Godess makes them more complete. You seem to agree that people should be open minded, but you aren't yourself. I'm glad that you believe in God and are very happy with believing in him/her, but its not for me, and not for a lot of other people.

I like the bible for one and one reason only, it has some good morals. True, it does have some horrible things in it, but things like: treat others the way you wish to be treated (Though in the bible its said a lot more fancier ^^ are wonderful sayings to pay attention to. I got many morals from the bible, but I don't follow it because I don't believe in God, so does that make me a bad person? My Christian friends don't think so and I have a Jehova's witness as a friend... she did try to convert me in grade 8, but I'm still athiest and she is still my friend, this is about 3 years later.

I tried being Christian, the people were nice, but it just didn't feel right, I'm happy not believing in God, I hope everyone can understand that.


~Cerberus~+Something simple+

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.Morph.
SILVER Member since Mar 2002

.Morph.

addict
Location: Lancashire, UK

Total posts: 669
Posted:Who knows?

Be happy, respect others.

Just MHO.



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