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Forums > Social Chat > Peace. Only through God?

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3252
Posted:On another thread I put forward the view that inner peace could be attained through non religious means.

Raymund Phule disagreed, as do many religious people who may believe, for example, that true peace can only be found through Jesus Christ.

So I thought I'd start a new thread, here's the relevant part of my quote, followed by Rays reply :-

quote:Originally posted by onewheeldave:
Life without a God is not meaningless, meaning and purpose can be found, for example, within oneself, and through acts of true compassion.

The miracle of us existing as conscious beings is in no way diminished if it is the case that we were not created by a God. and

quote:Originally posted by Raymund Phule:
This I personally disagree with.

However Yes you can find peace within yourself, but it wont be complete. What if there was more, what if you could be more peaceful? What if the only way to do that is via the Grace of God? Would you want it?

[ 23. October 2003, 11:57: Message edited by: onewheeldave ]


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California

Total posts: 2905
Posted:Umm... I am just telling the truth. If you feel that is me going out of my way to convert you... well thats your problem. Though personally if I was trying to convert you I would be doing it through someone else. Find a place where I have told someone to go to chruch? Show me where I have started preaching. In fact just about (95%) of the time the only reason I have even opend my mouth about my religion is because someone else said something first. Go ahead try to find a thread that I started about Christianity.

You can believe what you want, I have a friend a really good friend he practices magic. (he isnt wiccan but does magic, I dont know what you would call that) I really dont care that he does something differnt from me. In fact we sat down about a year ago with a 6 pack and just talked about his beliefs and mine.

I also have a guy that I work with and were are starting to be good friends (he has only been on station for about 2 weeks). We both like the same cult classic/B movies, just differ in beliefs. Thats fine.

There is also this young woman in our squadron, who I would just about do anything to hook up with. She is aithiest as it gets, used to be wiccan.

I dont care what you are, I have never tried to convert any of these friends because of respect. I have no problem telling them the truth if it comes up, but I am not out to convert them.

quote: tried being Christian, the people were nice, but it just didn't feel right, I'm happy not believing in God, I hope everyone can understand that.
You dont need to rationalise yourself to me.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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i8beefy2
GOLD Member since Mar 2003

i8beefy2

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Location: Ohio, USA

Total posts: 674
Posted:You are quite correct Ray, no good or evil, etc. Those judgements are made by man and man alone. Do you see the deer preaching about how evil it is for the lion to eat him? Oh but that's just natures way, an argument taken against many vegetarians as well who chose not to eat meat because its "mean". How about the young male lion who is killed by the dominant male because he tries to lead in a different direction? Wow, thats an analogy for dogmatic religions if I ever saw one, and I dont think you CAN argue against that, because its exactly what happened to Jesus. But please do try.

You think my philosophy holds no water because you insist on gripping your judgements about right and wrong as absolute truth ("I am just telling the truth"), however to me your philosophy holds no water because judgement is something that you see in only ONE place and that is man. It is a false view in my book because it shows up no where else in the natural order. The lion killing the cub? That is dominance, not judgement, and that is EXACTLY what the church preaches: God's dominance. Well if I was that cub and I DID believe in judgement, then I would say "Screw you, that is wrong" and not "Just get in line". THAT is why I reject your God and any god for that matter that is interpeted in that way. Unconditional means without limit, or unqualified. If God's love it unconditional, than I need not do anything to qualify for it, whether that be believing something or not. If that is not the case, then the entire doctrine of love in the NT is without merit.

At least in my view. I could never find "peace" with a God who insists on judging me for my actions. If blood is thicker than water, whatever, ether or whatever you want to call it must be even thicker, and if from a God, absolute. As a taoist, I recognize that there is no difference between good or evil, and all judgement is unecessary, even if I am not fully able to articulate that just yet in my life. Judge not lest ye be judged yourself. If I can reach a point where I judge not, by that token I should not ever be judged myself, be it by man or diety. For it is in abiding in that judgement of others that I subject MYSELF to them. Without my abiding in them, they "hold no water".

I believe you pointed out abiding in laws and the judgments placed on me there. Let me make this clear real quick, I don't believe in law either (Im an anarchist, remember?). Its a "social contract" that I never agreed to, just like God's law is a "moral contract" that I never agreed to. Something along the lines of comparing hell to jail was made. You can lock me whereever you like, I will be satistfied, as I'm a Taoist anarchist, remember? Even jail. Even hell. How do you punish a Taoist or a Buddhist? I've supplied enough information about the philosophies through various discussions now that most people following along should be able to formulate some kind of argument for this now. If the doctrine of sin is true, then it MUST be possible, but it is not logically. Or is it? Maybe taking away ALL experience from the Taoist soul is hell, but then he can abide in the absence of experience just as well. If the doctrine is not universal, then please, explain to me how it is Truth! This is a big question, and is very relevant to this thread, as it is peace based on NOTHING.

Now about this conversion thing...

Ray isn't trying to convert anyone. If he was, he would be using much more flowery language and happier tones with those of you who attack or retaliate against his views (Myself included at times, despite my best efforts to supress those responses). I fly off in defense mode too when someone starts taking that kind of tone with me, but he does provide good arguments most of the time. As do others. I think instead of attacking each other so much, we need to start divorcing ourselves emotionally from our conclusions so we can discuss this stuff without jumping to conclusions. For instance, if a theory holds no water, please tell me why, and I will try to elaborate to fill in those holes so you can see a better picture of what I am presenting. Its easy to look at these concepts from your own perspective and say "There are no holes", just as its easy for someone else to look at it from the other side and say "Hey man, the other side of this bowl looks like swiss cheese". Sometimes having someone else provide questions can help you plug those holes. Instead of trying to rip each other's philosophies to shreads we should be helping each other build them into the most viable alternatives for each other.

By all means rip mine to threads, and I will rebuild it and it will have fewer holes. The more weaknesses you find, the more strengths I can incorporate to withstand the next onslaught.


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Dentrassi
GOLD Member since Apr 2003

Dentrassi

ZORT!
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Total posts: 3044
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Raymund Phule:
Wow CB some pretty harsh words there, I really do feel sorry for you. Your life must be really bad right now. Perhaps you should seek some sort of help.

You really dont know what your talking about, so I wont hold that against you.
ray, do they know that you're only just getting warmed up?

have fun guys:lol:


"Here kitty kitty...." - Schroedinger.

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3252
Posted:For those few who believe true peace is impossible without accepting God into ones life, would it be possible to give a brief outline of why it's not possible?

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Prometheus


Prometheus

Diamond In The Rough
Location: Richmond, Virginia

Total posts: 459
Posted:What bothers most non-religious folk, I think, is how the churchy people always seem to refer to their personal beliefs as fact, rather than opinion. When something is identified, or rather implied to be, fact, it is like saying "Here is the way it is, everything else is unsubstantiated fantasy."

For example:
quote: Umm... I am just telling the truth. If you feel that is me going out of my way to convert you... well thats your problem. Though personally if I was trying to convert you I would be doing it through someone else. Find a place where I have told someone to go to chruch? Not that I'm picking on Ray, nor do I think he's interested in converting us into so many sheep, but, if you read between the lines, this is a common approach. The faith is not expressed as a belief, so much as it is an unaccepted reality. Just 500 years ago, they might say "I know the Earth to be flat. You can believe it's round if you want, and that's cool, but I know the truth. See how the perspective plays into it?

In fact, how often have you heard something thought to be solidly true referred to as 'gospel?' My chemistry teacher used to refer to the periodic table as our 'gospel,' because it was the heart and soul of all our material. Everything stemmed from that chart in some way, and, it all came back to it in the end...

Funny thing is, they've added three elements since then


Dance like it hurts; Love like you need money; Work like someone is watching.

Never criticize someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes. That way, when you DO criticize them, you are a mile away, and you have their shoes.

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frostypaw


Great balls of fire
Location: Tunbridge Wells, Kent

Total posts: 643
Posted:I think we can see how much peace religion brings in this thread.

People putting each other down, saying others need help - that their life must be crap - telling them they need to shut up, patronising, damning and inconsideracy all around...

quote:Wow CB some pretty harsh words there, I really do feel sorry for you. Your life must be really bad right now. Perhaps you should seek some sort of help.

You really dont know what your talking about, so I wont hold that against you. quote:Your interpritation of the NT is not only wrong but really really lame. God does love you unconditionally, He loves you even if you went to hell, and He does judge you. Perhaps you should read the NT again. This time, try opening your eyesCan we ban the evangelism? The telling people they're stupid? That their life must be screwed and that they need help????

Every attempt to discuss beliefs here gets swamped with us being told all our beliefs are idiotic, wrong and that we're imbeciles.

Issit possible we can have a discussion without these unpleasant elements?

quote:Ray: I can see what you are saying but I don't think that many people appreciate you trying to convert them into christianity, religion is not for everyone. Some people find believing in a God/Godess makes them more complete, while others find that ~not~ believing in a God/Godess makes them more complete. You seem to agree that people should be open minded, but you aren't yourself. I'm glad that you believe in God and are very happy with believing in him/her, but its not for me, and not for a lot of other people.Are people capable of respecting this?

Thanks to ieuan btw, as an example of christian who is only expressing his beliefs - not telling us we're pricks for not sharing them.


I can SEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

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Dunc
GOLD Member since Aug 2003

Dunc

playing the days away
Location: The Middle lands, United Kingd...

Total posts: 7263
Posted:quote:Originally posted by ieuan:
Custom,
you can't blame 'God' because people decide to be evil. People have a choice to do what they want. otherwise we'd all just be robots and what fun would life be then? Sorry if I upset you. I don't blame God cuz I don't think he exists, but, if He does didn't He create our emotions and each living being on the earth? Evil is soemthing He created isn't it? Just like He created Belzebub. Hatred is an emotion, murder is fuelled by our emotions, suffering is caused by various folks emotions being inflicted on others and deseases are merely living beings (virus's, organisms etc) that don't work in our body but He created them to do what they do...didn't He?
Don't worry you didn't upset me, I'm enjoying the debate. I'm not to seriously into this I just enjoy sharing my thoughts as much as I enjoy reading yours

quote:Originally posted by Raymund Phule:
Wow CB some pretty harsh words there, I really do feel sorry for you. Your life must be really bad right now. Perhaps you should seek some sort of helpNo my life is pretty rosey at the moment, although thanks for your concern. Help is certainly not needed, especially in spritual matters. Please have 'faith' in this.
I believe in myself, my peace, my worry, my feelings, my emotions, my empathy, my love, my trust, my faith. I wouldn't have room for more if I tried. But why do you feel the need to pass judgement that 'my life must be really bad'?

Question....what would happen if you die, and there actually is more, but it's not Christian (which ever one of the thousands of versions of Christianity there is) or Juwish or Muslim or anything we've known but something else? What if it's Thor wwaiting to greet us or something well out of our range of Human comprehension? Does that mean the lives lead by religious folk have been a lie?

MY love you all


Let's relight this forum ubblove

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Dunc
GOLD Member since Aug 2003

Dunc

playing the days away
Location: The Middle lands, United Kingd...

Total posts: 7263
Posted:quote:Originally posted by frostypaw:
I think we can see how much peace religion brings in this thread.

People putting each other down, saying others need help - that their life must be crap - telling them they need to shut up, patronising, damning and inconsideracy all around...

Every attempt to discuss beliefs here gets swamped with us being told all our beliefs are idiotic, wrong and that we're imbeciles.

Thanks to ieuan btw, as an example of christian who is only expressing his beliefs - not telling us we're pricks for not sharing them. how true.....

Can we all sit a share a beer please And agree that we all share one faith....we're all here and we all spin things that burn!!



Let's relight this forum ubblove

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ieuan
BRONZE Member since Sep 2003

holy man
Location: Upstate, NY, USA

Total posts: 110
Posted:ieuan slides CustomBug a beer and makes himself a Tom Collins. . .

I luuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuvvvvvvv to spin burning things!!!!!!! (que freaky bulging eyes and organ music) Hahahahahahhahahha.

I want to know what the record is for the biggest wick that has been spun. Hmmmmmmmmm . . .I wonder if I could spin flaming volley balls. . . . .


Gather your harps from the willow trees, dust off the ancient strings. Call the bards and prophets, let them sing healing and freedom. Let light and love flow from the strings, colors of revelation.

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soldari


soldari

busy-tofu!
Location: montreal: bagel capital

Total posts: 133
Posted:quote:I want to know what the record is for the biggest wick that has been spun. Hmmmmmmmmm . . .I wonder if I could spin flaming volley balls. . . . . Well do fire snakes count? I'm making a pair of extra long ones (7 meters of braided kevlar rope) that ought to be somewhere near the biggest wick. Spinning flaming volley-balls? Cool... :imagines the ammount of fuel: you'd need a really big bucket though

I bet God would have the biggest wick of them all though


there is no better way to say I love you than with the gift of a spatula!

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ieuan
BRONZE Member since Sep 2003

holy man
Location: Upstate, NY, USA

Total posts: 110
Posted:Well, I am not sure what fire snakes are, so I couldn't tell you.

Gather your harps from the willow trees, dust off the ancient strings. Call the bards and prophets, let them sing healing and freedom. Let light and love flow from the strings, colors of revelation.

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California

Total posts: 2905
Posted:Hrm, Jesus was crucified as fullfilment of proficy. Not because he was leading in a differnt direction. While granted some Jews may have seen it that way. If Jesus wanted to, he could have stopped it.

Beefy reject God all you want bud, it wont change things. You see not only is God the truth, He is the absolute truth. If you look at the sun (with naked eyes)it will hurt your eyes, this is an absolute truth! It doesnt matter if you believe it or not, it is still true!

Even a taoist cant escape their own judgment. A belief is a judgment, and you are judging that your way is the right way. It doesnt matter what anyone else believes. You may not have a problem with what they believe, but you still feel that you are right.


On the note of convertion, I dont feel that it is right to try to convert someone unless you are face to face. Thats just a personal preferance.

Dentrassi, no they have no clue


Onewheeldave... good question, and very hard to answer. True peace, (this is my definition and is probably similer to that of every other Christian), is knowing that no matter what happens in life, you have a place prepared for you that is in a place of eternal joy. Void of pain and sorrow, in the presence of God.

Now to answer your question, you can not obtain this without the Grace of God. How do you obtain the Grace of God? Through accepting Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior, repenting of your sins and though baptisim.


I would be that the periodic table of elements isnt complete yet. Heck they find a new fish every week, why not a new element?

There is a differnece between what some think to be true and what actually is true.

Think of it this way, you see a black hot air balloon flying through the air. You say hey look a black hot air balloon! You follow it to where it lands, and in fact it is a midnight-blue balloon.

It looked black from where you were (just like the earth looked flat 500 years ago), and you told everyone it was black, but untill you found out the truth, you were convinced that the truth of the matter was, that it was a black balloon!


Frosty, I know you didnt just say what I think you said. Comming from a guy who keeps calling me homophobic just because I agree that homosexuality is a sin. Why dont you stop calling people homophobes? Can I say that I teased the only male cheerleader in my highschool without some snide comment being made? Can I be in the military and support my government without being called a closed minded hatemongerer? Can I share my beliefs in an open forum without having everyone try to tell me that I am wrong?

The tounge (or keyboard in this case) is a double edged sword, it will cut both directions!

CB, you seemed really upset, thats why I suggested that you seek some help. I am glad I was wrong, it is much better to be happy than sad.


On a lighter note... what kind of beer? The Brits and the Aussies, have a wierd sence of what good beer is... then again they probably have a few choice words about what us Yanks drink!


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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soldari


soldari

busy-tofu!
Location: montreal: bagel capital

Total posts: 133
Posted:I'm not sure about Jesus dying for a prophecy. In my opinion it was martyrdom (is that even a word?). Without his death, his messages and teachings would've been lost.
ieuan- snakes are rope poi: think all wick no chain

ray- don't bother with that other beer, everyone knows true inner peace can only be achieved by ingesting Quebec micro-brewery beer, but for you we can import that bud or coors light drink


there is no better way to say I love you than with the gift of a spatula!

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3252
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Raymund Phule:

Onewheeldave... good question, and very hard to answer. True peace, (this is my definition and is probably similer to that of every other Christian), is knowing that no matter what happens in life, you have a place prepared for you that is in a place of eternal joy. Void of pain and sorrow, in the presence of God.

Now to answer your question, you can not obtain this without the Grace of God. How do you obtain the Grace of God? Through accepting Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior, repenting of your sins and though baptisim.


Cheers for your consise reply Ray.

Straight away I see that some of the confusion on this thread is because we have two (maybe more) different ideas of 'true peace'.

Yours Ray, and do correct me if I've misunderstood, is the peace that comes through knowing that whatever is happening now, and however bad it may be, that awaiting us in the future, is a place of eternal joy, in Gods presence.

The other idea of peace is peace here and now, in this very instant, and independant of any external factor including the existence/non existence of God. This is the concept of peace inherent in many Eastern philosophies eg Zen and Taoism.

In the interests of retaining the consiseness I'm not going to go into the pros/cons of these two alternatives at this point, but would like to point out that some of the heated disagreement on this thread could be due to the fact that people are talking about two different things whilst under the impression that they're talking about the same thing.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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woodnymph


woodnymph

member
Location: london,uk

Total posts: 313
Posted:children know peace.....i feel peaceful when i am creative...i feel peaceful when i look at nature,i feel peace when i finally centre myself in the present.

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Mr Hands


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Location: Cardiffy, Londony places

Total posts: 64
Posted:Without trying deliberately to fuel the venom in this debate, and purely out of curiousity: if someone is going to say that there are many elements in the periodic table, many fish in the sea, why do some of us believe that there is only one 'true' God when the abundance of other religious entities and moderately recent arisals of newer religions (Mormons and stuff and such) is so obvious? Rather than believing that our God is the definative truth and master of all that we are told to believe, wouldn't it be wiser to appreciate whatever belief you wish to chase as one amongst a pantheon of beliefs all equal in there virtues and vices? Can't we accept that the monodominant culture of whatever religion you wish to name is irrelevent in the much securer world tied closer together by far supeior comunications is now redundant as the church is no longer a stately power (unless you're living in America under the current administration). Surely accepting that these other beliefs exist and that whatever ours is is as sacred as their's and in now way better/bigger/more funky/more 'true', I think believing this would eliminate the competitive streak that appears to span the horizon in this discusion...

Why in the face of all religions teachings, must a general lack of tolerance still prevail in religious discusion?

I only ask the question...


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i8beefy2
GOLD Member since Mar 2003

i8beefy2

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Location: Ohio, USA

Total posts: 674
Posted:But as you yourself point out, the proof is all around me my friend. The more I act in accord with the Taoist philosophy, the more tangeable benefit I receive. It is not a belief per se. Ya see the Christian view can be broken into a Taoist view just like mine, love everything, but you are going to argue vehemently against this so I will digress from that. Using your viewpoint peace is a gift granted you upon death, when, if your wrong, it doesnt matter because you wont be around to bitch. In my viewpoint, I can work my way along my path and truly reach heaven here on earth, and it means taking the exact OPPOSITE view from yours on the subject of judgment. It seems TO ME that one produces verifiable results, and the other does not. That is the difference between a RELIGION and a PHILOSOPHY as Taoism is.

There is a concept called epistemic (?) conservativism. Basically, it is reasoning from precedent (citing past cases). If two arguments look equal, you take the first one (conservativism). I think its supposed to support the old "Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater" analogy, but I think it works to the opposite effect. It just says don't throw out anything until the baby has drowned and has been dead long enough to make sure it is really dead and not just faking, and THEN throw it all out. Much easier than trying to modify the old thought pattern. The problem when it is taken as Gospel is that it breeds closed-mindedness by making everything black and white while we're living in a color world. Not that you are closed minded, you've already demonstrated that you are excepting.

I think this idea was brought up in "The new homophobia" thread or something like that here, that people are telling their kids "That's ok, I can except that, but they are wrong." But everyone is entitled to their view. Speaking of gays and the church, how bout that bishop? I hope he has a rainbow robe, oh yes, PLEASE have a rainbow pattern robe!


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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

Enter a "Title" here:
Location: San Diego California

Total posts: 2905
Posted:Soldari, that is either Bud Light or Coors Light VB makes me gag and I prefer to use Guniess on beer broughts


Beefy, I am not at peace right now. Frankly my computer is jacked up and my bank account is nearly empty... peace for the here and now doesnt exist... more like oodals of stress! However I do find peace in knowing that in a few short years it will all be over and things will be like they truly should

Mr Hands, I believe what I believe because it is what I believe. Why do I believe it? Why dont you believe it? Those two questions probably have very similer answers... Because to the both of us the other belief seems too far fetched to be true.

Here is my question for you, since you decided to bring the US government into this discussion. If GWB was Wiccan, would the government be under Wiccan control? Would the Wiccas be a "statley power"? If so, then how can you truly say that the Christians are a statly power as the power would shift if ever a differnt religion came to be elected.

Beefy, to me the world is black and white. To me either you are on Gods side or you're not.

When I was probably about 12 years old, out to the side of our house we had a little grass area, surrounded by the typical white picket fence. To get into the is fenced in area you had to walk under a trelace (SP), big archway thing. Well being the rambunctios little brat that I was, I liked to climb everything. I climed the trelace one day and lost my grip and fell. Have you ever fallen on a picket fence? Needless to say my butt still bares the scar

The world is black and white, you cant sit on the fence, believe me it isnt comfertable, I tried


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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frostypaw


Great balls of fire
Location: Tunbridge Wells, Kent

Total posts: 643
Posted:quote:children know peace.....long before they've ever heard of god.

peace in the here and now is possible Ray - what was the second coming meant to bring? heaven and peace on earth?

to be stressed and not at peace in the now and eternally hoping for death and peace is just a creepy way to live mate and that's what you've made it sound like you're doing!

the world is not black and white. the bible says thou shalt not kill, but you yourself have pointed out the shades of grey in this - killing in self defence etc - it's more complicated than yay or nay

As you yourself said about belief in Jesus: if someone told you that you could have peace and heaven on earth right here and now and forever, would you say no?


I can SEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

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SlightlySinged
GOLD Member since Jun 2003

member
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 82
Posted:I don't hurt anyone, in fact I help others on their own journey. I learn and I teach. I am happy about myself, and I work to live. And I love poi. I do not need, and have never needed, a god to help me get to where I am. Inner peace can be reached only through knowing yourself. Not a god invented by others.

I do poi nearly every day. But it's not like I'm addicted or anything. I mean, sure, I am always conscious of exactly where my poi are at all times, but I'm not obsessed. um.. Anyone have the number for Poi-ers Anon?

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SlightlySinged
GOLD Member since Jun 2003

member
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 82
Posted:Now that I've read back through a few of the posts, I notice someone saying that if a different religion came into government power, that would just be another stately religion setting up a regeme to control everyone. Let me say this: Christianity is in the position of control that it is because it WANTS to be there. Other religions are not as power hungry to convert the masses. Other religions don't tell its followers to convert their friends, otherwise their friends will be in hell. Not many extreme christians, I have found, have many non-religious friends that they aren't hoping to convert one day. No, for the last time, I am already happy - I don't need your god. I don't need to live in fear of hell to be a good person. With that, good night..

I do poi nearly every day. But it's not like I'm addicted or anything. I mean, sure, I am always conscious of exactly where my poi are at all times, but I'm not obsessed. um.. Anyone have the number for Poi-ers Anon?

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ieuan
BRONZE Member since Sep 2003

holy man
Location: Upstate, NY, USA

Total posts: 110
Posted:I think I need some of these fire snake deals. Flaming volleyballs would be fun, but fire snakes might fill the gap in my soul. Thanks soldari I will give you a yes for the record, that is until I see flaming volleyballs(or make them myself).

This has been your comedic relief in the midst of the heated(and some say fun) discussion. More at six. We now return you to your regularly scheduled argument. . .


Gather your harps from the willow trees, dust off the ancient strings. Call the bards and prophets, let them sing healing and freedom. Let light and love flow from the strings, colors of revelation.

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Mr Hands


member
Location: Cardiffy, Londony places

Total posts: 64
Posted:Hold on there boys...

Christinaity is by no means the only religion grabbing for the reins of power... There are islamic societies dedicated to the conquering of the west (Nation of Islam), and vice versa (US and UK gov.t), there is no innocent party in religion driven governments, this is why they so often come to blows. But understanding that the government is set up on the authority and ethics of a particular religion is the first step to understanding them, their motives, and how to communicate with them positively. Its all about understanding. I don't think at any point I said I believe any religion was too far fetched to believe (Raymund!) I don't think this, nor would I think it be very wise to think this. Just because I believe in something by no means invalidates everything else, be it religion or philosophy or whatever football team I support. (just because I like and buy cola bottles at the pick'n'mix, doesn't mean that the fudge is disgusting and shouldn't be bought by anyone) I believe in what I believe because I have chosen to. I think far too many people in the world are brought up only knowing white bread, never tasting granary, and never having the choice or if they do, the understanding to question changing their diet. That is to say I was raised in a protestant family, I was sent to a protestand sunday school, I attended a Catholic primary school, and then I learnt that it was all stupid and it really didn't matter who ate what host at what mass. In one way, my spiritual up bringing was screwed up (I had some novel experiences during my history classes covering tudor religious escapades). In another, it brought other choices to my attention, it offerd new information in a new light, and if I had blindly followed a prescribed doctrine I would have been a fool. I have had the opportunity to question my faith, and the freedom to choose my own, regardless of what teacher or parent tells me what the other is doing wrong. I don't believe that any faith is farcecal. I belive that they all have merit in places, I understand and like the root principles or the wiccan faith (I practice a variety of them on a regular basis without following its faith, we all do at points. Just because its in the religion doesn't mean we can't do it or never will. Have you ever told yourself repeatedly you can do something if you believe you can't? well you've jsut uttered a wiccan incantation in its purest form pal!), I understand the Taoist philosophy completely and I adhere to some of its teachings (not all by choice, some simply because it happens that I have a similar opinion. It s bloody hard to be original these days), but not others: I choose. In much the same manner, I believe there is quite probably a being we would call a deity that created the universe, but I don't believe he is alone, benevelent, merciful, or even cares about us anymore that I do the reproducing bacteria that live in my mouth (dirtiest part of the human body you know!), as the bible would have me believe. I read the bible with as open a mind as I could and personally I don't place much stock in white, male, power propoganda from the middle ages. Why is it that we must place so much faith in a book/doctrine/god, that we deliberately set ourselves up against other people? Why can't we put out faith in each other but be mindful of our own spiritual beliefs and appreciate each others? (I buy co-co pops because I like them not because they are made by kellogs. If this was the caseI would never buy alpen or Shreddies... is this metaphor too abstract?) Why must the row arise over why who's religion is better/right/more true? How can we even postulate that a religion is more true than anothers? I mean, the sheer quanitity of religions and philosophies propogated by humanity over the centuries would indicate that there is now universal truth, the fact that there is such a diversity would suggest their isn't one. The only constant through all of these factors is us, and we as a race seem perpetually hung up on trying to convince each other that the other is wrong and worse (this reaches beyond religion). So as a summary I think my opinion may have changed somewhat on my origonal reaction to the opening statement...

I don't think that religion is the root to peace not because I feel they are deliberately antagonistic, or unnaccepting of each other (as I formerly believed) but probably because as religions we as people are too often too easily prepared to sacrifice the respect and understanding we have for each other in return for an unwavering faith in its own doctrines and philosophies (be they good or bad by whomever's interpretations).

I don't need a religion to tell me to respect my neighbour, or not to kill anyone, or not to steal, I believe these already, I feel the desire for the kind of direction any religion can give me. Maybe I'm a litle sad that way, or maybe I'm a little redeemed... Your call...

so as the gospel sayeth: "...No I'm not going to single handedly overthrow this supposedly 'evil' Roman empire! Aren't you listening to a word I'm saying! What part of 'respect thy neighbour' don't you understand?!?!?..."


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Ade
SILVER Member since Mar 2001

Are we there yet?
Location: australia

Total posts: 1897
Posted:many elements in the periodic table
many fish in the sea
many gods in the skies

not all of which have been discovered...

thanks Mr Hands (stands and applauds)


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Mr Hands


member
Location: Cardiffy, Londony places

Total posts: 64
Posted:thank you.

and um.... sorry for going on a bit of a rant...


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Dunc
GOLD Member since Aug 2003

Dunc

playing the days away
Location: The Middle lands, United Kingd...

Total posts: 7263
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Mr Hands:
Hold on there boys...
I read the bible with as open a mind as I could and personally I don't place much stock in white, male, power propoganda from the middle ages....why can't we put out faith in each other but be mindful of our own spiritual beliefs and appreciate each others?

AND

I don't need a religion to tell me to respect my neighbour, or not to kill anyone, or not to steal, I believe these already, I feel the desire for the kind of direction any religion can give me. Maybe I'm a litle sad that way, or maybe I'm a little redeemed... Your call...

And to quote various folks from various ages of the world....RIGHT ON MR HANDS!

There is no religion/God we can be sure actually exists, sorry except with faith, and hopefully we can see a little less Christian preaching in the thread from here on. God lovers please share your knowledge and common senses to help others as it's great on a human level, but please stop trying to convert everyone on a spiritual level, or tell them they do not/cannot/will not get into heaven, will be/won't be/are damned to hell for the life they lead or are not living a proper/peaceful life and somehow it would be better if they beleived in Him etc etc etc yatta yatta yatta.

2 cents, I'm nearly up to 2 dollars now and I live in the uk!!

Peace to all, be you Hindu, Muslim, Christian, Jew, Taoist or anything else I can't think of.....just don't tell me what I do wrong in my life that has no bearing on anyone else in this only world we have....and please don't knock on my door!



Let's relight this forum ubblove

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dromepixie


dromepixie

veteran
Location: Florida

Total posts: 1463
Posted:what if we just stopped and WERE as everything IS for just one minute.

Maybe then opinions wouldn't matter because we would all understand.


drome


JUGGLEwithyourmind!

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Flipmodius


member
Location: Halifax, N.S

Total posts: 103
Posted:i belive in you iuean(spelling error possibly) .


i belive in the teachings of buddah because of all the relgions i have studied his were the most freeing they made me understand. once a person has mastered them selves then and only then can they reach enlightenment for some this path may be longer. buddah says after enough life all will reach enlightenment. he said it in diffrent words.


some will understand. -buddah

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dromepixie


dromepixie

veteran
Location: Florida

Total posts: 1463
Posted:the simplest pleasures of life are often ignored.

love and light
drome


JUGGLEwithyourmind!

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_Stix_


_Stix_

Pooh-Bah
Location: la-la land

Total posts: 2419
Posted:too true Drome - too true

I honour you as an aspect of myself..

You are never to old to storm a bouncey castle..

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Page: 1234

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