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Dunc
Dunc

playing the days away
Location: The Middle lands
Member Since: 19th Aug 2003
Total posts: 7263
Posted:ok serious debate bout serious subject involving music and substances...

In the past 100 years or so (and much longer) there's been some great music created by various folks who were "off their t1ts" to put it mildly.

Now does anyone think that and of the various substance influenced musicians a) created such great music because of the drugs b) their music/inspiration was only 'helped along' by the drugs c) didn't need them to create what they did but took them anyway or d) shouldnt have taken them to begin with

And to top it off, can anyone think of any musicians who were well into their mind expansion but when they stopped they continued to make great music?!

Feel free to discuss any or all points...you may end up helping me out with this one!! p.s. this isn't meant to be a 'pro' or 'anti' dedate.

PEACE!!


Let's relight this forum ubblove

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:i'd like to nominate kyuss for option a, tool for option b, jimi hendrix for option c and billie holiday for option d.

there are obviously loads of examples for each category but the above are some of my favourite artists so they came to mind first.


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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GottaLoveIt
GottaLoveIt

Sponge
Location: Stevenage
Member Since: 21st Sep 2003
Total posts: 883
Posted:The Chilli's have been doing well since their scag but if anyone's heard of Live, the guy thinks he's creative, I like their old stuff but now they're getting carried away on something which makes them gods? Some guys I know have made they're best songs off their pickle now they're all straight they're still doing well

Monkeys monkeys and bananas

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frostypaw
Great balls of fire
Location: Tunbridge Wells, Kent
Member Since: 28th Jul 2003
Total posts: 643
Posted:i'd have to go for "b) their music/inspiration was only 'helped along' by the drugs"

and that's not always true...

generally art and artists benefit when they see different perspectives and life from other angles - drugs can do that for ya, tho ya certainly don't Need them it does work eh

Poor Sid Barrett.


I can SEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

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Eera
old hand
Location: In a test pit, Mackay
Member Since: 29th May 2003
Total posts: 1107
Posted:What sort of drugs actually increase creativity? One of my mates likes to play around with Cubase while out of his tiny little mind on various substances. We don't have the heart to tell him that his "compositions" are, infact, a big pile of poo and kind of sound like they were made by a man trying to work a computer while fending off the ten foot spiders that were after him. Maybe they become a work of genius when you're stoned in the freaky same way that all drunks can understand each other?

There is a slight possibility that I am not actually right all of the time.

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dj_goose
dj_goose

Sunburnt Bournda Beach Bum
Location: A Melbourne boy through and th...
Member Since: 25th Apr 2003
Total posts: 157
Posted:Bill Hicks once said something that has stuck with me and i truley beleive to be true

"If u dont think drugs have done good things for us then do me a favour. Go home tonight and take all your albums, all your tapes and all your cd's and BURN THEM. Coz u know what, the musicians, who created all that great music that has inhanced your lives for the past year..........reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaalllllllllllllllllll f..kin high on drugs"

not too bad for a dude who was so high on drugs himslef to know his own name

cheers


Look to the moon, look to the stars, and if you still can't find happyness...find a bar!!!

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:There is a widespread belief that much creativity in music is fuelled by drugs.

One reason is that a lot of musicians are notorious for their drug use; however, bear in mind that it is always going to be the extreme ones who recieve media attention, many highly creative musicians do not use drugs and don't recieve as much media attention because they tend not to end up being arrested for trashing hotels, smuggling substances, overdosing etc.

Of the creative ones who do use drugs, it would be wrong to attribute their creativity to the drugs simply because of the association.

For example, take hospitals; they are always full of sick people- we don't assume from this that hospitals make you sick. There is another explanation i.e. sick people go to hospitals. Association alone doesn't establish a causal connection.

Similarly, with creative musicians; if it was the case that a majority of them were drug users, we can't conclude that drugs cause their creativity. It could be the case that they take drugs simply because the music industry itself is saturated with drugs, or maybe creative individuals are more likely to have self esteem issues which they try to mask by taking drugs.

There are many instances of creative individuals who do not take drugs, many instances of drug taking artists who find that when they quit drugs, not only does their life as a whole improve, but that they become more creative. Also, many examples of headlines along the line of 'My Drugs Hell...' by artists who find their original rose tinted view of the drug scene doesn't last as long as they had hoped.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:another reason for this widespread belief dave is that many musicians claim that some kinds of drugs enhance their creativity.
it is more than just assumption on our parts and its definitely not just bill hicks kicking up dust.

i don't see why you want to deny this - there are drugs that enhance sports performance and i know you're aware of drugs that enhance perception and reaction times.
why is it so hard to believe that some drugs might have an effect on creativity?
i know that, for me, there are now some drugs i pretty much treat solely as creative-performance enhancers rather than just something i take at parties to change my perceptions.

some musicians have even claimed that drugs can influence their whole attitude towards their instrument (eg. danny carey).

quote: There are many instances of creative individuals who do not take drugs, many instances of drug taking artists who find that when they quit drugs, not only does their life as a whole improve, but that they become more creative. i'm hugely sceptipcal of this statement.
i personally consider there to be a difference between recreational drug use and prolonged drug abuse.

do you have a few examples of musicians who have given up recreational drug use (*not* overcome an addiction or dependency problem) and have since become more creative?


eera - for creativity enhancing drugs look up some info on tim leary's discovery and follow it up with a quick review of the works of mr shulgin.
a question - is your mate a good musician when he's not smashed? without meaning to sound rude, could it be that he's just not very good at making electronic music at all...?


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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brainstorma
brainstorma

old hand
Location: under the fairie wheel
Member Since: 10th Jan 2003
Total posts: 1184
Posted:janes addiction would have to be one of a few bands that was very heavey into there hammer and other drugs
you can see it in the beutiful lyrics of perrie ferral
and now that they have reformed and are clean(er?) there music is still just as good perrie my have lost a little of what he had in his way of intracting with the crowds but they still make great music


"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, champagne in one hand, strawberries in the other, body thoroughly used up, and screaming "WOO-HOO What a ride!"

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vanize
vanize

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Austin, Texas
Member Since: 21st Aug 2001
Total posts: 3899
Posted:drugs for actors, drugs for writers, drugs for musicians, drugs for scientist, drugs for painters, drugs for politicians, drugs for fire performers, oh my!

lots of people from all walks of life use drugs, lots of from all walks of life don't. more from the liberal side do, more from the conservative side don't. Musicians tend to be more liberal.

some people handle their drugs, some don't. some quit, some use forever, others never do. some people have always done drugs and some always will. drugs will never go away because what they provide is too valuable (on many levels), but they will never become fully mainstream, because what they do is too dangerous (on many levels).

the world is a beautiful place wether you do or don't. I don't care if a person is totally sober or in another universe if I like his/her music. I'm sure most modern muscicians I like have done drugs at some point in their life, and that music has evolved in a certain direction because of this. I'd be willing to bet many of my favorite authors and artists have too.

Does it matter?

not to me.


-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:quote:Originally posted by coleman:
another reason for this widespread belief dave is that many musicians claim that some kinds of drugs enhance their creativity. My post was just pointing out that there are many alternative explanations of the association between drugs and creativity.

It didn't deny that drugs can lead to enhanced creativity, simply pointed out that if we look deeper there are many alternative explanations which explain the facts equally well.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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completesociopath
member

Member Since: 20th Oct 2003
Total posts: 8
Posted:never mind musicians go raving - never before has such unique creativity been fueled by mind altering substances! u can stand at a bar and look on in amusement, and they think they are sooo cool... nothing a good crack round the ear with a staff wouldnt solve!

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Prometheus
Prometheus

Diamond In The Rough
Location: Richmond, Virginia
Member Since: 30th Jun 2002
Total posts: 459
Posted:Artists have been 'creating under the influence' for much longer. Samuel Taylor Coleridge was a marijuana fiend, Mozart enjoyed an occasional puff of Opium, Hemmingway was an alcoholic, and Botticelli's "Birth of Venus" was reportedly done under the influence of some kind of analgesic painkiller.

Dance like it hurts; Love like you need money; Work like someone is watching.

Never criticize someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes. That way, when you DO criticize them, you are a mile away, and you have their shoes.

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Magnus
member
Location: Bath, UK
Member Since: 5th Sep 2002
Total posts: 279
Posted:Drugs are for the weak.

Most musicians I know who compose on drugs make music that you NEED drugs to appreciate.

The best musicians I know don't touch drugs.

Dunno about famous musicians, I don't know how they use drugs.

Gah, I wish people would stop trying to justify drugs.

If you can't deal with the day on your own, smoke a cigarette.

If you can't relax in a social situation, drink alocohol.

etc, etc.


Magnus... pay it forward

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Magnus:
Drugs are for the weak.

Gah, I wish people would stop trying to justify drugs.

If you can't deal with the day on your own, smoke a cigarette.

If you can't relax in a social situation, drink alocohol.

etc, etc. i think you missed out 'if you don't understand/disagree with a lifestyle choice, denounce it.'


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:quote:Originally posted by coleman:
quote:Originally posted by Magnus:
Drugs are for the weak.

Gah, I wish people would stop trying to justify drugs.

If you can't deal with the day on your own, smoke a cigarette.

If you can't relax in a social situation, drink alocohol.

etc, etc. i think you missed out 'if you don't understand/disagree with a lifestyle choice, denounce it.' There's a disctinction between a 'lifestyle choice' and a way of living that is wrong.

An example of a lifestyle choice is what kind of clothes you wear; whereas deciding to mug someone is different- it's a wrong act.

I think some people here are seeing drug use as being more towards the 'wrong act' end of the scale.

I know it seems very open minded to be saying that drug use is a personal/lifestyle choice, but to counter Magnus with that view is to miss the point.

i.e. you're saying that drugs are a lifestyle choice whereas Magnus has made it very clear that he believes drugs are not a lifestyle choice, rather they are a way for the weak to face life.

So in effect you are saying that you disagree with Magnus, whilst offering no reason whatsoever why you disagree.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Magnus
member
Location: Bath, UK
Member Since: 5th Sep 2002
Total posts: 279
Posted:On the other hand I do tend to believe that I'm right about everything.

Magnus... pay it forward

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DeepSoulSheep
DeepSoulSheep

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Berlin
Member Since: 25th Sep 2002
Total posts: 2617
Posted:Errrr, ok, it took me ages to figure out what you meant by that Dave. Although you may be technically correct I think everyone knows what Coleman meant...Magnus was pretty blunt and his view is obviously the opposite of Cole's but for him to start listing reason would only take this thread away from it's orginally intended topic
quote: p.s. this isn't meant to be a 'pro' or 'anti' dedate.


I live in a world of infinite possibilities.

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rajiv_sinhain
member
Location: india
Member Since: 15th Jan 2003
Total posts: 18
Posted:DRUGS AND MUSIC, WHAT A COMBINATION I THINK IN THE EARLY 60S WHEN THE HIPPIES ORIGINATED , THE HARD ROCK, THE METALS, THE WOODSTOCK, AND THE DRUGS TOOK PLACE IN THE MUSIC WORLD, THE FRUSTRATION, THE POWER YOU CAN SAY FALSE POWER, TO SHOW THE WORLD, MADE TO BECOME DRUG ADDICTS,BUT THEY GAVE SOME OF THE FIUNEST TUNES , SONGS EVER CREATED BY NON DRUG ADDICTS,,I KNOW FAMOUS MUSICIANS IN INDIA DRINKS ALCOHOL, AND BECOME WORLD FAMOUS, BUT DRUGS NO, NEVER

LIVE LIFE HAPPILY,


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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:quote:Originally posted by onewheeldave:
i.e. you're saying that drugs are a lifestyle choice whereas Magnus has made it very clear that he believes drugs are not a lifestyle choice, rather they are a way for the weak to face life.

So in effect you are saying that you disagree with Magnus, whilst offering no reason whatsoever why you disagree.
yep, that's exactly what i'm saying.

the implied reasoning is that i consider magnus' viewpoint to be a blanket statement.

if you consider personal drug use (NOT abuse) as 'a wrong act' then no, there is no point in me trying to present my views - just as no-one could convince me that mugging is a lifestyle choice, i cannot convince you that an individual taking taking advantages of a substance is okay in some situations.

but i took offence when magnus suggested that the only reason an individual takes drugs is because they are a weak person and then tried to back up that argument with two descriptuions of (legal) drug abuse.

i drink alcohol occasionally but never for the reason magnus has stated.
therefore i presented an oppositely biased opinion of his views.

magnus' comments on the topic were great but his attitude towards drug users in general (ie. drugs are solely used by weak people who have trouble dealing with their day-to-day lives) are prejudiced and patently wrong - not to mention the fact that the first post clearly stated "p.s. this isn't meant to be a 'pro' or 'anti' dedate".


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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soldari
soldari

busy-tofu!
Location: montreal: bagel capital
Member Since: 16th Jul 2003
Total posts: 133
Posted:Hmm, it is a big debate.

I beleive that the artists who created under the influence of drugs couldn't've produced the same results if they weren't under the influence of...

I'm not saying they wouldn't be able to make good music without, just that it would be different. One example given above is the feeling of intemacy with one's instrument. Sometime my violin is molded in my hand, sometime my guitar sings to me, and sometimes my bass shakes me -but these moments (for me) occur more often when I am not using drugs. Drugs, I find, will make me loose on trying any and everything with my music (wether it sounds good or bad is another story)- the results of taking drugs while performing or creating definately affects the final product.

On account of professional musicians, a lot of them do use drugs, or maybe did use drugs. The great names of rock are all tainted with drugs, though there are some exceptions.

One of my favorites is Frank Zappa, who in his days of music not only didn't touch any drugs, but refused to work with people who did. Would not taking drugs also affects the music you might make?

And there are others who are the opposite, wether they needed the drugs to create or wether they prefered, I guess we'll never know.



there is no better way to say I love you than with the gift of a spatula!

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Magnus
member
Location: Bath, UK
Member Since: 5th Sep 2002
Total posts: 279
Posted:Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

Sounds to me like the original poster is thinking of taking drugs to 'enhance' their creativity. Is that the case, Custom Bug?

As Eera points out, drugs more likely just make you think your creativity is improved, whereas actually you just churn out the sort of dross that you need drugs to appreciate. I remember a couple of years ago some guy on LSD showing me a picture he had drawn, that looked like something you'd see on the wall in a nursery school.

Any discussion like this is bound to end up pro or anti. What if X drugs DID help musician Y write their bestselling album; surely that implies they are not really a musical genius. Or what if musician Z hadn't overdosed and died halfway through their greatest ever work? Seems pretty anti to me, either way.

Also, I think it's drug user's attitudes towards themselves that are prejudiced and patently wrong, and I put that down to the drugs


Magnus... pay it forward

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:okay, so what you're saying is people only take drugs because they are weak and to aid them with their social shortcomings. and, due to the effect of the drugs they then develop a 'prejudiced and patently wrong attitude' towards their reasons for taking any particular drug?

and as far as your opinion of 'some guy on lsd' that showed you a picture - he probably wasn't an artist! and even if he was, lsd doesn't *give* a person creativity, it can just as well inhibit it as it can enhance it.

"What if X drugs DID help musician Y write their bestselling album; surely that implies they are not really a musical genius."

drugs don't write music - people do!

i'm not saying there are no downsides to drug use (if you read my original post you'll see i give an example of a band/musician i love for each of the categories in the first post) but i think using them to enhance a creative process is one of the most respectible forms of recreational drug use.

"what if musician Z hadn't overdosed and died halfway through their greatest ever work?"

if you can find one example of where a good musician has died from use of drugs as a creative aid - not from an overdose of heroin, coke, crack due to an addiction (which usually occurs miles away from a studio and between albums) - i'll buy you a cake


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:quote:Originally posted by vanize:

lots of people from all walks of life use drugs, lots of from all walks of life don't. more from the liberal side do, more from the conservative side don't. Musicians tend to be more liberal.
But some of the most conservative people I know use drugs. I find that the choice of drugs tends to vary with conservative types staying with legal drugs like coffee, tobacco, and alcohol, while the liberal types tend towards marijuana and other things on that spectrum.

But drug use is a universal fact of life for all groups.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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frostypaw
Great balls of fire
Location: Tunbridge Wells, Kent
Member Since: 28th Jul 2003
Total posts: 643
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Magnus:
Drugs are for the weak.
...
If you can't deal with the day on your own, smoke a cigarette.

If you can't relax in a social situation, drink alocohol.Can ya spell hypocritical?

This is very narrowminded and indeed in many ways awful thing to say - if you find the day hard smoke?!?!?! are you kidding? Nicotene is one of the most powerful and most harmful drugs known to man!!!!!

If you don't understand why many creative people took drugs - then please go and find out - do not simply dismiss it.

So yes, I totally disagree with magnus because by seperating two VERY harmful drugs (alcohol and nicotene) from the others his view is skewed beyond use.


I can SEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

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Magnus
member
Location: Bath, UK
Member Since: 5th Sep 2002
Total posts: 279
Posted:blah blah blah

If you can't find warm and fuzzy feelings inside yourself, take ecstacy.

If you can't stay awake, drink coffee.

If you can't dance all night, try speed.

If you can't access your sixth circuit brain functions on your own, take shrooms or LSD.

Do you see what I'm getting at? The decision to take drugs is always due to wrong thought or 'laziness'.


Magnus... pay it forward

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Magnus
member
Location: Bath, UK
Member Since: 5th Sep 2002
Total posts: 279
Posted:frostypaw, sorry, my fault - you've misinterpreted.

My point is that people CAN get through the day (to use, admittedly not the best example) without a cigarette. But from smokers you hear things like "it relaxes me" "I get tense at work but I'm alright after my fag break" etc, when a five minute walk round the block would work just as well without the expensive and harmful nicotine addiction.


Magnus... pay it forward

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frostypaw
Great balls of fire
Location: Tunbridge Wells, Kent
Member Since: 28th Jul 2003
Total posts: 643
Posted:that's a lot more fair to say - i'd hazzard a guess here that you've not tried these substances to know right?

I can SEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

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Magnus
member
Location: Bath, UK
Member Since: 5th Sep 2002
Total posts: 279
Posted:to be fair, I haven't, but I've been in close proximity to people who have.

Magnus... pay it forward

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Astar
member
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.
Member Since: 8th Nov 2002
Total posts: 1591
Posted:heh nicotine isn't that bad of a drug. It actually has some health benefits in moderation. The reasons cigarettes have such a bad rep is because they are consumed in such a stupidly large amount that they cause damage. Marijuana is worse per gram for your body to inhale then most forms of tobacco.

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Astar
member
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.
Member Since: 8th Nov 2002
Total posts: 1591
Posted:PS-Magnus what's up with this kill or be killed survival of the fittest attitude? So what if some people need drugs to get through life. It sounds like you have been reading to many evolution books. I kind of agree with you that people tend to rely on drugs to much (of all sorts, not just recreational) But there is definatly a place for medication. For me I have found drugs lower the anxiety of self-examination so I could identify my flaws and deal with them. I don't really think I need drugs anymore, but not that long ago I definatly did need them.

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