Forums > Social Chat > abstinence only?
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Ghostbuster
455 posts
Location: York, UK
Ghostbuster
455 posts
Location: York, UK
Posted:
I was watching a news item on tv this morning talking about how the american government is spending millions getting teachers to encourage students to be abstinent until married.
I thought it would be a good topic for everyone's discussion
I think someone should spend millions teaching the opposite purely coz it would annoy the american government who i hate.
I was watching a news item on tv this morning talking about how the american government is spending millions getting teachers to encourage students to be abstinent until married.
I thought it would be a good topic for everyone's discussion
I think someone should spend millions teaching the opposite purely coz it would annoy the american government who i hate.
Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
Posted:
Thank you for clearifying that Mike, you lost me from the begining.
Frost, this is what I am offended about...
You know Forsty, there is only one virgin birth, I am sorry you feel like you have to attack me in every post!
Personally on abortion, I would rather pay for the 5,000 aborted kids a day out of my own pocket then see them killed off without a chance for life! Ohh that 5,000 abortions a day, thats just in the US.
Thank you for clearifying that Mike, you lost me from the begining.
Frost, this is what I am offended about...
quote:
My advise to anyone who is not Christian Fundementalist Right wing psycopath, any one who wishes to have a choice of religion, anyone who doesn't want to see religion back in the schools, any one who wants to have sex on there terms not the governments, anyone who wants to do zippo tricks and play with there fire toys, anyone who wants to smoke a bowl and not be thrown in jail for it.
quote:Thats not politics, thats getting down right personal.
Come to Canada: Thats what we stand for. We won't destroy your culture and beliefs here. We'll enbrace them. So come to Canada
You know Forsty, there is only one virgin birth, I am sorry you feel like you have to attack me in every post!
Personally on abortion, I would rather pay for the 5,000 aborted kids a day out of my own pocket then see them killed off without a chance for life! Ohh that 5,000 abortions a day, thats just in the US.
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
BRONZE Member
Pooh-Bah
2,211 posts
Location: London, Wales (UK)
Pooh-Bah
2,211 posts
Location: London, Wales (UK)
Posted:
Well I think it would be commendable if they were trying to teach kids to respect themselves and others. A lot of kids are pressured into giving up their youth too early. Sure many kids are phsyically devloped to engage in a sexual relationship, but not emotionally so. I don't agree that 'before marriage' should be used, although recommending that saving yourself for someone you love and trust would be good.
Of course it is necessary to teach the kids about safe-sex practices too, and thats where these christian based teachings are dangerous, such as the reports from the vatican that condoms cannot prevent HIV.
Also the reduced condom supply to Africa and fierce anti-abortion lobbying from the Bush administration is deplorable! Clincs have had to close as there funding has been revoked for providing abortions or even just information on abortion. With so many of the HIV infected population coming from Africa, this is a terrible blow for the developing world.
Well I think it would be commendable if they were trying to teach kids to respect themselves and others. A lot of kids are pressured into giving up their youth too early. Sure many kids are phsyically devloped to engage in a sexual relationship, but not emotionally so. I don't agree that 'before marriage' should be used, although recommending that saving yourself for someone you love and trust would be good.
Of course it is necessary to teach the kids about safe-sex practices too, and thats where these christian based teachings are dangerous, such as the reports from the vatican that condoms cannot prevent HIV.
Also the reduced condom supply to Africa and fierce anti-abortion lobbying from the Bush administration is deplorable! Clincs have had to close as there funding has been revoked for providing abortions or even just information on abortion. With so many of the HIV infected population coming from Africa, this is a terrible blow for the developing world.
Come faeries, take me out of this dull world, for I would ride with you upon the wind and dance upon the mountains like a flame.
- W B Yeats
SILVER Member
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
Posted:
i believe the us abortion rate is around 3500 a day now - in fact it is still in decline and is the lowest it has been since its legalisation in 1974 (source: usa today, jan 2003 1 2)
not attacking ray, just keeping things accurate
in fact i think for possibly the first time in a debate like this that i completyely agree with ray's standpoint here:
a government that tries to instill the 'value' of abstinance before marriage is putting a religious bias on the running of the society and this i disagree with entirely.
i believe the us abortion rate is around 3500 a day now - in fact it is still in decline and is the lowest it has been since its legalisation in 1974 (source: usa today, jan 2003 1 2)
not attacking ray, just keeping things accurate
in fact i think for possibly the first time in a debate like this that i completyely agree with ray's standpoint here:
quote:exactly
If the Gov. tought that abstinence is the only way to stay away from STDs and pregnancy 100% and that if you absolutly must have sex, then you should use some form of contraception. Teach em the truth, and let them find their own way.
a government that tries to instill the 'value' of abstinance before marriage is putting a religious bias on the running of the society and this i disagree with entirely.
"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood
Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
Posted:
First off, Christian and the Vaticin are two differnt things. The Vaticin is a good ole boys club for Catholics, not every Christian follows what those guys say. Personally I think they are a bunch of schmucks
Try not to confuse the two
Now for the idea that condoms cant stop HIV, well the size of the HIV virus compared to that of a hole smaller than a pin prick in a condom is that like... Throw a US football through a tractor tire and you basically have what it takes to get the HIV virus through the hole in a condom.
It doesnt matter if you Christian or not, its universal fact.
Why should I pay for someones abortion? I mean, it is my tax money that goes into things like that. I personally dont want any abortions to happen no matter what! So I applaude any reduction in abortion funding.
Coleman, 3,500 babies killed each day is still 3,500 too many! However it is a good thing that it is going down.
The US was formed on RELIGIOUS VALUES. I remember something about "...all men are equal under God...", "In God we trust", oaths for the country are taken before God. That must mean that some religious values were and are present.
The founding fathers of the US all but two were active members in their church. There is nothing wrong with having a religious bias for laws or values. Weather you admit it or not most values are from religious backgrounds.
To say they are putting a Christian bias would be wrong too, because Christianity isnt the only religion that promotes waiting to have sex untill after you are married.
There is a seperation between Church and State, NOT CHRUCH AND STATESMAN!
First off, Christian and the Vaticin are two differnt things. The Vaticin is a good ole boys club for Catholics, not every Christian follows what those guys say. Personally I think they are a bunch of schmucks
Try not to confuse the two
Now for the idea that condoms cant stop HIV, well the size of the HIV virus compared to that of a hole smaller than a pin prick in a condom is that like... Throw a US football through a tractor tire and you basically have what it takes to get the HIV virus through the hole in a condom.
It doesnt matter if you Christian or not, its universal fact.
Why should I pay for someones abortion? I mean, it is my tax money that goes into things like that. I personally dont want any abortions to happen no matter what! So I applaude any reduction in abortion funding.
Coleman, 3,500 babies killed each day is still 3,500 too many! However it is a good thing that it is going down.
The US was formed on RELIGIOUS VALUES. I remember something about "...all men are equal under God...", "In God we trust", oaths for the country are taken before God. That must mean that some religious values were and are present.
The founding fathers of the US all but two were active members in their church. There is nothing wrong with having a religious bias for laws or values. Weather you admit it or not most values are from religious backgrounds.
To say they are putting a Christian bias would be wrong too, because Christianity isnt the only religion that promotes waiting to have sex untill after you are married.
There is a seperation between Church and State, NOT CHRUCH AND STATESMAN!
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
SILVER Member
Ghostbuster
455 posts
Location: York, UK
Ghostbuster
455 posts
Location: York, UK
Posted:
looks like a lively debate i started
overall i think some people should spell better and not use the excuse that they can't be bothered or were typing too quickly. Just admit you're not very bright i wont take the mick
My favourite annoyances :
Your, You're
There, Their, They're
(may be off topic but i started the topic anyway )
looks like a lively debate i started
overall i think some people should spell better and not use the excuse that they can't be bothered or were typing too quickly. Just admit you're not very bright i wont take the mick
My favourite annoyances :
Your, You're
There, Their, They're
(may be off topic but i started the topic anyway )
Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
Posted:
*coughs* Remember that lovly post about how you can butcher any spelling and people will still understand what you're saying.
Propper spelling, while on line is for geeks and pedifiles... or is that dating online?
*coughs* Remember that lovly post about how you can butcher any spelling and people will still understand what you're saying.
Propper spelling, while on line is for geeks and pedifiles... or is that dating online?
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
SILVER Member
Ghostbuster
455 posts
Location: York, UK
Ghostbuster
455 posts
Location: York, UK
Posted:
yeah i remember it. it was interesting.
guess i am a geek then. (definitely not the other thing)
yeah i remember it. it was interesting.
guess i am a geek then. (definitely not the other thing)
member
141 posts
Location: Halifax
141 posts
Location: Halifax
Posted:
Wow, this really is an interesting debate. Both sides have very interesitng arguements. Myself, I will state some of my opinions. But not when it comes into state and religion. Reasons being: religion is a very touchy subject to me that requires the ability to listen, understand, and respect. And with state, or politics... I don't pay attention, or give that much of a damn, unless it's something big.
On to the topic that this was actually started for...
Telling kids not to have sex, eh? Well... I don't think it'll have that big of an effect on the student population. Being a part of that population, I see what goes on everyday. Not that I'm saying that everyone else here doesn't, because I'm not. But it seems that the bigest deals at the moment, is not the sex bit. I mean, yeah, you're going to have those who had sex for their fist time when they were 12, or 13. Some of my personal good friends lost their virginity around that age.
But from what I see, it is oral sex that is becoming more of a problem. Because giving head in a dirty bathroom stall is sooo cool... Not. It's just as, if not more dangerous, because STDs and STIs can still get around just as easily.
But I go back, and agree with what DarkDevil said. Teenagers want to make their own decisions. So let them, but let them make educated decisions. I know myself, I learn by my mistakes. Because, most teens will do what they want, regardless of what any adult will tell them. Not that all do.
But, now, I must defend kids, because, like I say, I am one. Not all of us go out and have sex, as you all know. Myself, I haven't and don't, because I have body image issues. And I know many, many fellow classmates who don't have sex, because they are that responsible, and they are that mature to make the decision.
Another thing that I really think that they should teach in school is not just the science about having sex, because at least where I am, that's all they do teach, but also the emotional part of it. No one has ever warned us about what it will do to our self-esteem, how it effects our relationships, and some even depend on having sex to make them feel like they're worth anything. Because of the amount of emotional development kids go through at this age, having sex, and not knowing just the physical, but also emotional consequences is not a smart thing to do!
I'll stop myself now, for all of your sakes! I could probably go on forever... But I won't!
If anything at all in any way shape or form has offended anyone, please understand it was not my intent. This is just a piece of my personal opinion, and I hope you don't take anything that you DO find offensive personally.
And... yup, that's it!
Wow, this really is an interesting debate. Both sides have very interesitng arguements. Myself, I will state some of my opinions. But not when it comes into state and religion. Reasons being: religion is a very touchy subject to me that requires the ability to listen, understand, and respect. And with state, or politics... I don't pay attention, or give that much of a damn, unless it's something big.
On to the topic that this was actually started for...
Telling kids not to have sex, eh? Well... I don't think it'll have that big of an effect on the student population. Being a part of that population, I see what goes on everyday. Not that I'm saying that everyone else here doesn't, because I'm not. But it seems that the bigest deals at the moment, is not the sex bit. I mean, yeah, you're going to have those who had sex for their fist time when they were 12, or 13. Some of my personal good friends lost their virginity around that age.
But from what I see, it is oral sex that is becoming more of a problem. Because giving head in a dirty bathroom stall is sooo cool... Not. It's just as, if not more dangerous, because STDs and STIs can still get around just as easily.
But I go back, and agree with what DarkDevil said. Teenagers want to make their own decisions. So let them, but let them make educated decisions. I know myself, I learn by my mistakes. Because, most teens will do what they want, regardless of what any adult will tell them. Not that all do.
But, now, I must defend kids, because, like I say, I am one. Not all of us go out and have sex, as you all know. Myself, I haven't and don't, because I have body image issues. And I know many, many fellow classmates who don't have sex, because they are that responsible, and they are that mature to make the decision.
Another thing that I really think that they should teach in school is not just the science about having sex, because at least where I am, that's all they do teach, but also the emotional part of it. No one has ever warned us about what it will do to our self-esteem, how it effects our relationships, and some even depend on having sex to make them feel like they're worth anything. Because of the amount of emotional development kids go through at this age, having sex, and not knowing just the physical, but also emotional consequences is not a smart thing to do!
I'll stop myself now, for all of your sakes! I could probably go on forever... But I won't!
If anything at all in any way shape or form has offended anyone, please understand it was not my intent. This is just a piece of my personal opinion, and I hope you don't take anything that you DO find offensive personally.
And... yup, that's it!
I like orange.And don't take my cookies.
Quantum Theorist
564 posts
Location: Vansterdam
564 posts
Location: Vansterdam
Posted:
Thanks for the support frostypaw
[/qb][/QUOTE]I just took another look at the US declaration of Independence. Jefferson as a briliant man. And a hero to most of America.
These are quotes from the US DoI:
What do we get from these quotes:
The United States wasn't formed on the basis of Religion (I know you were refering to Christianty). It was the formed on the following:
Honour
Respect
Freedom
Liberty
While some of these may be a part of the Christian mantra. Freedom certantly isn't. You must go to chuch every sunday. You must listen to a book written thousands of years ago that has been translated so many times it has lost all of it's original meaning. Thats not freedom, thats tyranny.
Also the founders wern't Christian. They were deitists. They believed that nature is the greater power. That Jesus was just a wise philosopher. And like all great philosophers he had some good ideas and some not so good ones.
Hmmm they believed in a god of nature? That sounds down right heathen. Would a good Christian have heathen beleifs? So tell me Ray do you think that all the witches should be banned from practing their religion when the founders of your wonderful country shared similar beliefs. By the way if your going to call me a heathen now, your right I am. I'm proud of the fact that I believe in the Wiccan faith. That I do not and cannot belong to a religion that spawned the Cruisades, and the burning times, and other genocides. That we are brave enough to accept that premarital sex is ok (as long as you love the person because love and sex are part of the same thing). We even have a ritual involving sex. It's called the great rite. Thats how highly we value sex. Sex is a trully beautiful spiritual thing, and is by no stretch of the imagination an evil horrible thing nessesary to the survivel of the human race. Two people who are in love share this beautiful thing. You don't have to be married to be in love. In fact I think most people would agree that you should fall in love and then get married. They don't call it making love for nothing.
On to Abortion, well thats a completely different debate. Lets get the religous thing out of the way first. My religion has been practicing herbal abortion for thousands of years. Some in the craft argue against it. And some are for it but we do not use religion to make these choices. We do what we feel is right in our hearts. Isn't that a more logical approach then blindly following a book? Does any one else see the foolishness in that?
It is also interesting to note that most religions that are against abortion are also against Birth Control. People will have sex. It is human nature that cannot be changed. It is a law of nature, a built in drive that can't be removed. Now what do we do with children born into poverty, to parents who can't have or don't want them? It takes parents to create a child, but it takes a whole community to raise them. You already said that Canada's taxes are high. So compared to the cost of the gov paying for a child an abortion is cheep. I'd rather see that child's soul reincarnated to a family that wants them and can look after them. Then to live a miserable life. I am pro choice, but that is beside the fact.
You live in a Country that professes freedom as a value, right along with liberty.
Now isn't it a contradiction to tell a woman what is right for her based on your beliefs? And they are your beliefs not hers. The abortion debate has never had any thing to do with facts. It's all about peoples feelings and beliefs. Do you presume to force your beliefs on others? It is the womans choice (along with the father's if he's still around) what is right for her (them) and the unborn child in her womb. Everyone is different with different circumstances. It is the womans choice based on those circumstances. IT IS HER CHOICE! And you who profess liberty and freedom under your declaration of independence presume to take the basis that your country was built on (freedom and liberty to every person) away from her? HOW DARE YOU TAKE THAT AWAY! Or do you still think women arn't persons?
[ 18. October 2003, 20:06: Message edited by: Frost ]
Thanks for the support frostypaw
[/qb][/QUOTE]I just took another look at the US declaration of Independence. Jefferson as a briliant man. And a hero to most of America.
These are quotes from the US DoI:
quote:
to assume among the powers of the earth, the seperate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them
quote:
Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness
quote:The first two are from the beginning and the last is from the very end.
we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our furtunes and our sacred Honor
What do we get from these quotes:
The United States wasn't formed on the basis of Religion (I know you were refering to Christianty). It was the formed on the following:
Honour
Respect
Freedom
Liberty
While some of these may be a part of the Christian mantra. Freedom certantly isn't. You must go to chuch every sunday. You must listen to a book written thousands of years ago that has been translated so many times it has lost all of it's original meaning. Thats not freedom, thats tyranny.
Also the founders wern't Christian. They were deitists. They believed that nature is the greater power. That Jesus was just a wise philosopher. And like all great philosophers he had some good ideas and some not so good ones.
Hmmm they believed in a god of nature? That sounds down right heathen. Would a good Christian have heathen beleifs? So tell me Ray do you think that all the witches should be banned from practing their religion when the founders of your wonderful country shared similar beliefs. By the way if your going to call me a heathen now, your right I am. I'm proud of the fact that I believe in the Wiccan faith. That I do not and cannot belong to a religion that spawned the Cruisades, and the burning times, and other genocides. That we are brave enough to accept that premarital sex is ok (as long as you love the person because love and sex are part of the same thing). We even have a ritual involving sex. It's called the great rite. Thats how highly we value sex. Sex is a trully beautiful spiritual thing, and is by no stretch of the imagination an evil horrible thing nessesary to the survivel of the human race. Two people who are in love share this beautiful thing. You don't have to be married to be in love. In fact I think most people would agree that you should fall in love and then get married. They don't call it making love for nothing.
On to Abortion, well thats a completely different debate. Lets get the religous thing out of the way first. My religion has been practicing herbal abortion for thousands of years. Some in the craft argue against it. And some are for it but we do not use religion to make these choices. We do what we feel is right in our hearts. Isn't that a more logical approach then blindly following a book? Does any one else see the foolishness in that?
It is also interesting to note that most religions that are against abortion are also against Birth Control. People will have sex. It is human nature that cannot be changed. It is a law of nature, a built in drive that can't be removed. Now what do we do with children born into poverty, to parents who can't have or don't want them? It takes parents to create a child, but it takes a whole community to raise them. You already said that Canada's taxes are high. So compared to the cost of the gov paying for a child an abortion is cheep. I'd rather see that child's soul reincarnated to a family that wants them and can look after them. Then to live a miserable life. I am pro choice, but that is beside the fact.
You live in a Country that professes freedom as a value, right along with liberty.
Now isn't it a contradiction to tell a woman what is right for her based on your beliefs? And they are your beliefs not hers. The abortion debate has never had any thing to do with facts. It's all about peoples feelings and beliefs. Do you presume to force your beliefs on others? It is the womans choice (along with the father's if he's still around) what is right for her (them) and the unborn child in her womb. Everyone is different with different circumstances. It is the womans choice based on those circumstances. IT IS HER CHOICE! And you who profess liberty and freedom under your declaration of independence presume to take the basis that your country was built on (freedom and liberty to every person) away from her? HOW DARE YOU TAKE THAT AWAY! Or do you still think women arn't persons?
[ 18. October 2003, 20:06: Message edited by: Frost ]
In the 60's people took acid to make the world weird, now the world is weird and they take prozac to make it normal again.
Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
Posted:
Okay, show me in the Bible where it says you MUST go to Church every Sunday. First off, Sunday is the first day of the week, not the last! The Sabboth, is a Saturday, not a Sunday!
Freedom is what Christianity is all about! Not freedom to do whatever you want when you want, no the freedome from your sin!
Secondly, the US Constitution says "right to persue happyness" No where does the Constitution say that you have the right to be happy. Kinda neat aint it
Umm no they were Christians, not deitists. They did not believe that nature is the greatest power, I dont know where you got that from. Nobody should be punished in this life for thier religion, as long as their religion does not lead to a crime. You can walk out on the street and start stabbing people with a "serimonial knife" and then cry about religious freedom!
I am not going to chastise you for your beliefs, I am sorry you have that opinion of me. I will never support you and your faith and will tell you that you should look at your faith again, but it isnt my place judge you.
I dont understand why you think Christians view sex as a horrible thing. The funny thing about marrage, is that YOU DONT NEED A CERIMONY. While granted the laws of the land require some sort of certificate, marrage to God is a promise between a man and a woman, to God and eachother; a promise that they will never love any other.
Love is something that you make, sex is an act of that love. In Christianity, you must have love first then sex, you cant reverse the two.
Well... I am glad to see that you are so closed minded that you think that every decision I or other Christians make is NOT FROM THE HEART!! Not ever decision made is based souly on the Bible. We are not some brainwashed cult that cant think for themselves. I view abortion as beyond wrong it is punishing an unborn child for the actions of its parents, or it is punishing the child for things out of its control.
I would rather pay our of my pocked for the 3500 + kids killed every year around the world, than to have one of them murdered befor even getting the chance to live!
Why should a pregnant woman have the right to terminate the life she is partly responsible for bringing into the world? Even if she was tide down and raped, why should she have the right to punish the child because its father was a criminal? I profess the liberty and freedom for that unborn child!
How dare you, someone who doesnt know a damn thing about me accuse me of things like you just did. I, someone who is willing to lay down his life for you! Who the **** are you to say something like that? I dont care what you believe, I would still die so you could live! Who are you to say something like that?!
Okay, show me in the Bible where it says you MUST go to Church every Sunday. First off, Sunday is the first day of the week, not the last! The Sabboth, is a Saturday, not a Sunday!
Freedom is what Christianity is all about! Not freedom to do whatever you want when you want, no the freedome from your sin!
Secondly, the US Constitution says "right to persue happyness" No where does the Constitution say that you have the right to be happy. Kinda neat aint it
Umm no they were Christians, not deitists. They did not believe that nature is the greatest power, I dont know where you got that from. Nobody should be punished in this life for thier religion, as long as their religion does not lead to a crime. You can walk out on the street and start stabbing people with a "serimonial knife" and then cry about religious freedom!
I am not going to chastise you for your beliefs, I am sorry you have that opinion of me. I will never support you and your faith and will tell you that you should look at your faith again, but it isnt my place judge you.
I dont understand why you think Christians view sex as a horrible thing. The funny thing about marrage, is that YOU DONT NEED A CERIMONY. While granted the laws of the land require some sort of certificate, marrage to God is a promise between a man and a woman, to God and eachother; a promise that they will never love any other.
Love is something that you make, sex is an act of that love. In Christianity, you must have love first then sex, you cant reverse the two.
Well... I am glad to see that you are so closed minded that you think that every decision I or other Christians make is NOT FROM THE HEART!! Not ever decision made is based souly on the Bible. We are not some brainwashed cult that cant think for themselves. I view abortion as beyond wrong it is punishing an unborn child for the actions of its parents, or it is punishing the child for things out of its control.
I would rather pay our of my pocked for the 3500 + kids killed every year around the world, than to have one of them murdered befor even getting the chance to live!
Why should a pregnant woman have the right to terminate the life she is partly responsible for bringing into the world? Even if she was tide down and raped, why should she have the right to punish the child because its father was a criminal? I profess the liberty and freedom for that unborn child!
How dare you, someone who doesnt know a damn thing about me accuse me of things like you just did. I, someone who is willing to lay down his life for you! Who the **** are you to say something like that? I dont care what you believe, I would still die so you could live! Who are you to say something like that?!
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
member
108 posts
Location: Oakland, CA
108 posts
Location: Oakland, CA
Posted:
hmmmm. interesting discussion.
i really appreciated the students perspective given above. i thought he was extremely articulate and had obviously thought about the issue a great deal.
one point i have is that what people want is defined SO much more by their homelife than it is by what is taught in school. we get our morals from our family, friends, and mentors; the people who take the time to talk with us about "right and wrong". people are shaped by the discussions they have that push them to truly think about the issue. so, you definitely have to talk to your kids to pass on your moral beliefs ... not preach at them. preach and lecture and they will tune you out.
school is to teach you information. your friends and family teach you how to be a person, how to use that information. it really disgusts me how many people rely on the school system to "raise" their children. thats not what its there for.
that said, i don't see how the government spending money on an absinence program will keep people from having sex before marriage. the decision of whether or not to have sex is based on different data ... and that comes from home.
personally, i see this as a mere ploy by the president for support from the "moral majority". he knows it won't make a difference to teenagers. but, it sure will look good to many of their parents.
ok, now for some slightly more esoteric stuff.
given that some person makes a decision to have sex before marriage ... for some belief systems this person is automatically condemned to hell, for others it isn't so serious a "sin" (redemable), and for still other beliefs it is encouraged. so this person either does not believe it is a sin, believes it is redemable, or recognises that they will "pay" for this action by going to hell.
by using birth control, i am trying to understand how the person is making their situation worse. if they don't believe sex before marriage is a sin, it is doubtful they would regard the use of contraceptives as a sin either. if the belief system is one in which sex before marriage is redemable, is there a faith that holds contraception a more serious sin than the sex itself? i am not sure ... maybe someone else out there can enlighten me. if the person truly believes they will now burn in hell for their action ... well, adding the birth control won't change that, except in some faiths perhaps where they would be assigned to a different (worse?) circle of Dante's Inferno.
peoples actions are based on their own belief systems, not anyone else's. BUT how does this effect what will happen to them if YOUR belief system just happens to be the one in a million that is correct? it doesn't change anything. that person still chooses to have sex. whether or not they choose to use birth control has no bearing at all on the issue of not having sex before marriage ... to you. they choose. you wish they wouldn't. there is nothing you can do about it, unless you are one of those people helping to mold that person.
it isn't really about what is right or wrong for anyone, its about the futility in trying to make other people believe what you believe by mandate ... instead of by discussion and mental challenge.
and
kristie
hmmmm. interesting discussion.
i really appreciated the students perspective given above. i thought he was extremely articulate and had obviously thought about the issue a great deal.
one point i have is that what people want is defined SO much more by their homelife than it is by what is taught in school. we get our morals from our family, friends, and mentors; the people who take the time to talk with us about "right and wrong". people are shaped by the discussions they have that push them to truly think about the issue. so, you definitely have to talk to your kids to pass on your moral beliefs ... not preach at them. preach and lecture and they will tune you out.
school is to teach you information. your friends and family teach you how to be a person, how to use that information. it really disgusts me how many people rely on the school system to "raise" their children. thats not what its there for.
that said, i don't see how the government spending money on an absinence program will keep people from having sex before marriage. the decision of whether or not to have sex is based on different data ... and that comes from home.
personally, i see this as a mere ploy by the president for support from the "moral majority". he knows it won't make a difference to teenagers. but, it sure will look good to many of their parents.
ok, now for some slightly more esoteric stuff.
given that some person makes a decision to have sex before marriage ... for some belief systems this person is automatically condemned to hell, for others it isn't so serious a "sin" (redemable), and for still other beliefs it is encouraged. so this person either does not believe it is a sin, believes it is redemable, or recognises that they will "pay" for this action by going to hell.
by using birth control, i am trying to understand how the person is making their situation worse. if they don't believe sex before marriage is a sin, it is doubtful they would regard the use of contraceptives as a sin either. if the belief system is one in which sex before marriage is redemable, is there a faith that holds contraception a more serious sin than the sex itself? i am not sure ... maybe someone else out there can enlighten me. if the person truly believes they will now burn in hell for their action ... well, adding the birth control won't change that, except in some faiths perhaps where they would be assigned to a different (worse?) circle of Dante's Inferno.
peoples actions are based on their own belief systems, not anyone else's. BUT how does this effect what will happen to them if YOUR belief system just happens to be the one in a million that is correct? it doesn't change anything. that person still chooses to have sex. whether or not they choose to use birth control has no bearing at all on the issue of not having sex before marriage ... to you. they choose. you wish they wouldn't. there is nothing you can do about it, unless you are one of those people helping to mold that person.
it isn't really about what is right or wrong for anyone, its about the futility in trying to make other people believe what you believe by mandate ... instead of by discussion and mental challenge.
and
kristie
Quantum Theorist
564 posts
Location: Vansterdam
564 posts
Location: Vansterdam
Posted:
Ray what made you think that I was pointing at you in particular? I never said your name.
But if you want to get personal:
If you ask me I'd say Mary got knocked up and they just didn't tell anyone because they were embarassed....
And are you saying that because you are a soldier that you are right and everyone who doesn't agree with you is wrong?
[ 17. October 2003, 15:18: Message edited by: Frost ]
Ray what made you think that I was pointing at you in particular? I never said your name.
But if you want to get personal:
If you ask me I'd say Mary got knocked up and they just didn't tell anyone because they were embarassed....
And are you saying that because you are a soldier that you are right and everyone who doesn't agree with you is wrong?
[ 17. October 2003, 15:18: Message edited by: Frost ]
In the 60's people took acid to make the world weird, now the world is weird and they take prozac to make it normal again.
member
103 posts
Location: Oklahoma City, OK, USA
103 posts
Location: Oklahoma City, OK, USA
Posted:
Raymond, which would you rather "pay" for?
A pill that allows a woman who was raped or made a mistake to prevent the creation of another human?
Or the healthcare she'll need while pregnant, the expenses of the government-run adoption agency which seeks to place the child in a home, the welfare that the single unwed mother needs to support herself and the child if she decides to keep it, AND the healthcare of the mother and child since she works at a job with no benefits?
Granted, these aren't the exact circumstances and results of every woman who gets an abortion, but the main idea is, either put up, or shut up. You want this country to be abortion free, then make it so that every woman who ends up not having an abortion is able to live a life equal to that which she could have lived if she had taken the pill.
Ignoring the problem will only cause more problems. Ignorance is bliss, but it's also expensive. I hope you make a lot of money.
Raymond, which would you rather "pay" for?
A pill that allows a woman who was raped or made a mistake to prevent the creation of another human?
Or the healthcare she'll need while pregnant, the expenses of the government-run adoption agency which seeks to place the child in a home, the welfare that the single unwed mother needs to support herself and the child if she decides to keep it, AND the healthcare of the mother and child since she works at a job with no benefits?
Granted, these aren't the exact circumstances and results of every woman who gets an abortion, but the main idea is, either put up, or shut up. You want this country to be abortion free, then make it so that every woman who ends up not having an abortion is able to live a life equal to that which she could have lived if she had taken the pill.
Ignoring the problem will only cause more problems. Ignorance is bliss, but it's also expensive. I hope you make a lot of money.
SILVER Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,899 posts
Location: Austin, Texas, USA
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,899 posts
Location: Austin, Texas, USA
Posted:
Totally off topic, but...
Interestingly, many anchient cultures that were quite remote from each other devised pretty much exactly the same format for the week quite independant of each other. It took some doing to get the world to adopt a universal calender, but the concept of the week was never a contention - just what year to start from and how to handle that pesky 1/4 day that comes every year.
Now it may seem I am badly digressing in this next topic, but it leads directly to my point, which I can only prove by showing you the system that created the week.
The slowest moving of the "wandering stars" (i.e., planets visible to the naked eye) across the sky is Saturn. In fact, if we catalog the various celestrial objects that move and list them with their speed relative to the "fixed" stars from slowest to fastest (and also include some relavant alternate names for them from mythologies other than the Roman), we get:
1: Saturn
2: Jupiter (Thor)
3: Mars (Tiew)
4: Sun
5: Venus (Frigga)
6: Mars (Wodden)
7: Moon
Hey, what a coincidence, there are 7 of them! (Actually, it is no coincidence at all)
Many anchient religions view these wanderers as gods. Now, clearly, the god that moves the slowest MUST be the most important, so you must worship that one first, yes?
So on the first hour of the first day, you should venerate Saturn. Why not call this "Saturn's day". If you celebrate each 'god' in turn for one hour, in the course of twenty four hours you will have worshiped each thrice and gone a another three hours along (7 goes into 24 3 times with a remainder of 3). So either count through our list till you get to 24, or just move down three (try it both ways if it pleases you) from Saturn, and you will see that on the second day, you start the day worshiping the Sun. So call this "Sun's day". Go through the process again and agian, and you arive at "Moon's day", "Tiew's day", "Wodden's day", "Thor's day", "Frigga's day", and finally back to "Saturn's day". Now you know why the days are named as they are. In fact, tricks on you out there who only have one god, because by the very fact that you have been observing the weekly schedual, you have actually been worshipping the pagan gods your whole life!
Anyway, if we are strictly interpreting the Sabbath as the 7th day, then actually Friday is the Sabbath.
However, Raymond is quite correct in pointing out that Saturday is the chosen day for it, at least in the Jewish religion, which I do not think anyone can contest is the origin of christianity and even islam (ironically enough).
But religions (and especially Christianity) have never qualmed about redefining things when it suits their needs - like the date Christ was born, giving Mary back her virginity nearly 400 years after she died (when the Orthodox and what is now the Catholic church split), or what day the Sabbath is (which, for most Christians, changed to sunday around 100 AD ).
Totally off topic, but...
quote:Actually, Sunday being the first day of the week is not particularly true. Ignoring the Sabbath argument, since the creation of the week is far older than the bible (and older than many of the stories in the bible as well), and getting to how the week was originally consructed we find that the first day of the week is in fact Saturday, which I will explain after a breif diversion.
First off, Sunday is the first day of the week, not the last! The Sabboth, is a Saturday, not a Sunday!
Interestingly, many anchient cultures that were quite remote from each other devised pretty much exactly the same format for the week quite independant of each other. It took some doing to get the world to adopt a universal calender, but the concept of the week was never a contention - just what year to start from and how to handle that pesky 1/4 day that comes every year.
Now it may seem I am badly digressing in this next topic, but it leads directly to my point, which I can only prove by showing you the system that created the week.
The slowest moving of the "wandering stars" (i.e., planets visible to the naked eye) across the sky is Saturn. In fact, if we catalog the various celestrial objects that move and list them with their speed relative to the "fixed" stars from slowest to fastest (and also include some relavant alternate names for them from mythologies other than the Roman), we get:
1: Saturn
2: Jupiter (Thor)
3: Mars (Tiew)
4: Sun
5: Venus (Frigga)
6: Mars (Wodden)
7: Moon
Hey, what a coincidence, there are 7 of them! (Actually, it is no coincidence at all)
Many anchient religions view these wanderers as gods. Now, clearly, the god that moves the slowest MUST be the most important, so you must worship that one first, yes?
So on the first hour of the first day, you should venerate Saturn. Why not call this "Saturn's day". If you celebrate each 'god' in turn for one hour, in the course of twenty four hours you will have worshiped each thrice and gone a another three hours along (7 goes into 24 3 times with a remainder of 3). So either count through our list till you get to 24, or just move down three (try it both ways if it pleases you) from Saturn, and you will see that on the second day, you start the day worshiping the Sun. So call this "Sun's day". Go through the process again and agian, and you arive at "Moon's day", "Tiew's day", "Wodden's day", "Thor's day", "Frigga's day", and finally back to "Saturn's day". Now you know why the days are named as they are. In fact, tricks on you out there who only have one god, because by the very fact that you have been observing the weekly schedual, you have actually been worshipping the pagan gods your whole life!
Anyway, if we are strictly interpreting the Sabbath as the 7th day, then actually Friday is the Sabbath.
However, Raymond is quite correct in pointing out that Saturday is the chosen day for it, at least in the Jewish religion, which I do not think anyone can contest is the origin of christianity and even islam (ironically enough).
But religions (and especially Christianity) have never qualmed about redefining things when it suits their needs - like the date Christ was born, giving Mary back her virginity nearly 400 years after she died (when the Orthodox and what is now the Catholic church split), or what day the Sabbath is (which, for most Christians, changed to sunday around 100 AD ).
-v-
Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!
I don't want a title.
940 posts
940 posts
Posted:
Personally, I think that marriage is going the way of the dodo. Civil commitments are becoming more widely available, and many heterosexual couples are taking advantage of that. Many are not entering into any contracts at all. Many are homosexual or polyamorous, which our government does not support. So for a large portion of our population, no sex before marriage would mean no sex at all.
Telling teenagers not to have sex is not very effective. In my experience, it's only the well-informed teenagers who manage to stick to abstinance, when that's their choice. Remember, the trick to making someone do what you want them to do is to convince them that it was their idea in the first place.
Personally, I don't think abstinance is the answer. So many people confuse sex and love. If you don't have sex, your first rush of desire for a person may make you run out and marry someone who is wrong for you. Without hands-on experience, how can you ever learn to distinguish between lust and love?
Personally, I think that marriage is going the way of the dodo. Civil commitments are becoming more widely available, and many heterosexual couples are taking advantage of that. Many are not entering into any contracts at all. Many are homosexual or polyamorous, which our government does not support. So for a large portion of our population, no sex before marriage would mean no sex at all.
Telling teenagers not to have sex is not very effective. In my experience, it's only the well-informed teenagers who manage to stick to abstinance, when that's their choice. Remember, the trick to making someone do what you want them to do is to convince them that it was their idea in the first place.
Personally, I don't think abstinance is the answer. So many people confuse sex and love. If you don't have sex, your first rush of desire for a person may make you run out and marry someone who is wrong for you. Without hands-on experience, how can you ever learn to distinguish between lust and love?
E pluribus unum, baby.
Climbing up my leg
141 posts
Location: England
141 posts
Location: England
Posted:
Can I just say that it's not really fair for men to say abortion is wrong because they never have to fear being pregnant. Ray - Do you have the faintest idea what it's like to be tied down and raped and end up pregnant as a result. I think if you talked to women who had you'd find some, not all would tell you that the idea of looking at their baby every day and knowing it was the result of a horrible violent attack would be unbearable. Not to mention that there is research going on to determine if this sort of agression is hereditary, which brings up lots of other issues. You can't say you know what you'd do in that situation because you'll never be in it. It's like me saying I know how i'd feel if I got testicular cancer - I don't have the faintest idea because I don't have testicles, just like you don't have a womb.
And I thought the bible said 'Judge not lest ye be judged.'Obviously that's not important.
Can I just say that it's not really fair for men to say abortion is wrong because they never have to fear being pregnant. Ray - Do you have the faintest idea what it's like to be tied down and raped and end up pregnant as a result. I think if you talked to women who had you'd find some, not all would tell you that the idea of looking at their baby every day and knowing it was the result of a horrible violent attack would be unbearable. Not to mention that there is research going on to determine if this sort of agression is hereditary, which brings up lots of other issues. You can't say you know what you'd do in that situation because you'll never be in it. It's like me saying I know how i'd feel if I got testicular cancer - I don't have the faintest idea because I don't have testicles, just like you don't have a womb.
And I thought the bible said 'Judge not lest ye be judged.'Obviously that's not important.
I don't want a title.
940 posts
940 posts
Posted:
About abortion.
Imagine, if you will, that you have been kidnapped. Maybe you were assaulted, and maybe you just haven't been a perfect human being and someone thinks that this is the punishment you deserve. However you got there, you have been kidnapped.
Now imagine that your captor is forcibly medicating you, and those meds are not very pleasant. They cause you to gain weight, bloat, throw up, have wild mood swings, and feel like you're not in control of yourself. They may cause you to gain a temporary form of diabetes. Your body will never completely recover. As your time goes on, you can barely move. And your captor says that you're in for one long extreme torture session before he finally releases you, and that he will scar you permanently before you go. The scars will affect your economic, social, and emotional situation for the rest of your life.
Now, imagine that there is only one way for you to escape and return to your normal life safely. You will have destroy one egg and one batch of semen from a fertile couple.
Should you be allowed to escape?
About abortion.
Imagine, if you will, that you have been kidnapped. Maybe you were assaulted, and maybe you just haven't been a perfect human being and someone thinks that this is the punishment you deserve. However you got there, you have been kidnapped.
Now imagine that your captor is forcibly medicating you, and those meds are not very pleasant. They cause you to gain weight, bloat, throw up, have wild mood swings, and feel like you're not in control of yourself. They may cause you to gain a temporary form of diabetes. Your body will never completely recover. As your time goes on, you can barely move. And your captor says that you're in for one long extreme torture session before he finally releases you, and that he will scar you permanently before you go. The scars will affect your economic, social, and emotional situation for the rest of your life.
Now, imagine that there is only one way for you to escape and return to your normal life safely. You will have destroy one egg and one batch of semen from a fertile couple.
Should you be allowed to escape?
E pluribus unum, baby.
SILVER Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,899 posts
Location: Austin, Texas, USA
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,899 posts
Location: Austin, Texas, USA
Posted:
Hardcore Regyt, hardcore...
I still don't think it will convince the religious right though. To them, clearly the rights of a proto-human with a completely unclear and indeterminant future are significantly more important than the rights of a human who is a already a firmly established, fully functional, healthy, contibuting member of society.
Hardcore Regyt, hardcore...
I still don't think it will convince the religious right though. To them, clearly the rights of a proto-human with a completely unclear and indeterminant future are significantly more important than the rights of a human who is a already a firmly established, fully functional, healthy, contibuting member of society.
-v-
Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!
Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
Posted:
Frosy, I'm just going to ignore your waste of a responce.
Kristie, why should the Gov spend millions on condoms for schools? Wouldnt an abstinence program save the public money? Both programs require literature printed, but only one needs the supply of laytex.
Wow Frost, it must have been because you used a quote from me, then went on a rant! How could anyone not think that you were not talking directly to them?
Vicious Vixen, I would rather pay for everything it took to keep that child alive. I would pay for all of it! Helthcare, food, clothing, a psychiatrist for the mother. If I had the ability to do all that for every child killed by an abortion I would.
The problem isnt being ignored, it is being stopped cold!
Vanize, you really didnt disprove my point. The point I made was that Sunday was not the sabboth. In all actuality you just proved the point, thank you
Frosy, I'm just going to ignore your waste of a responce.
Kristie, why should the Gov spend millions on condoms for schools? Wouldnt an abstinence program save the public money? Both programs require literature printed, but only one needs the supply of laytex.
Wow Frost, it must have been because you used a quote from me, then went on a rant! How could anyone not think that you were not talking directly to them?
Vicious Vixen, I would rather pay for everything it took to keep that child alive. I would pay for all of it! Helthcare, food, clothing, a psychiatrist for the mother. If I had the ability to do all that for every child killed by an abortion I would.
The problem isnt being ignored, it is being stopped cold!
Vanize, you really didnt disprove my point. The point I made was that Sunday was not the sabboth. In all actuality you just proved the point, thank you
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
Posted:
Frosy, I'm just going to ignore your waste of a responce.
Kristie, why should the Gov spend millions on condoms for schools? Wouldnt an abstinence program save the public money? Both programs require literature printed, but only one needs the supply of laytex.
Wow Frost, it must have been because you used a quote from me, then went on a rant! How could anyone not think that you were not talking directly to them? Do I need to point out all the times you spoke directly to me in that post?
My profession in life, has nothing to do with me being right or wrong. But how dare you say something like that, when you dont even know me. Do you know what the future holds? Wouldnt you be greatfull if someone like me or even if I took a bullet for you?
Vicious Vixen, I would rather pay for everything it took to keep that child alive. I would pay for all of it! Helthcare, food, clothing, a psychiatrist for the mother. If I had the ability to do all that for every child killed by an abortion I would.
The problem isnt being ignored, it is being stopped cold!
Vanize, you really didnt disprove my point. The point I made was that Sunday was not the sabboth. In all actuality you just proved the point, thank you
Unfortunatly you went on to just FUBAR the rest of your post.
The sabboth is not Sunday, no Christian who knows what the heck they are talking about will say that it is. Mary, was a virgin untill after Jesus' birth. Nobody knows the exact date of Jesus' birth but show me what is wrong with celebrating it on the 25th of December. Why not celebrate it every day?
Regyt, love is an interesting thing. You dont always marry the first person you love, and you dont have to have sex in order to find out if you are in love. Tell me the truth, if you had no basis of comparison, if you and your spouse were both virgins, how can you tell if the sex isnt good?
DMS, who ever said that it was going to be bareable? I couldnt imagine what it would be like to have that happen. I wont pretend to, but I do know that IT WASNT THE CHILDS FAULT! Why kill the child. Ever hear of the Kick the Dog Theory?
Regyt, an interesting situation, can you honestly say you can go back to a normal life after something like that?
Here is another question, is it a fertalised egg? If not, it will be dead in what a month anyhow, and the spermcells... they go ever 6 hours or so. Big deal! Think of how much sperm is wasted each day in your home town from all the guys who masterbate!
A fertalised egg, that is something differnt than an unfertalised egg and some sperm.
Personally if it ment killing an unborn child, I wouldnt escape. Why? Because that child has yet to prove itself in this world, because it has yet to become a productive member of society, because it isnt fully functional.
Vanize, I like how you imediatly blame the religious type for something you obviusly know nothing about.
Frosy, I'm just going to ignore your waste of a responce.
Kristie, why should the Gov spend millions on condoms for schools? Wouldnt an abstinence program save the public money? Both programs require literature printed, but only one needs the supply of laytex.
Wow Frost, it must have been because you used a quote from me, then went on a rant! How could anyone not think that you were not talking directly to them? Do I need to point out all the times you spoke directly to me in that post?
My profession in life, has nothing to do with me being right or wrong. But how dare you say something like that, when you dont even know me. Do you know what the future holds? Wouldnt you be greatfull if someone like me or even if I took a bullet for you?
Vicious Vixen, I would rather pay for everything it took to keep that child alive. I would pay for all of it! Helthcare, food, clothing, a psychiatrist for the mother. If I had the ability to do all that for every child killed by an abortion I would.
The problem isnt being ignored, it is being stopped cold!
Vanize, you really didnt disprove my point. The point I made was that Sunday was not the sabboth. In all actuality you just proved the point, thank you
Unfortunatly you went on to just FUBAR the rest of your post.
The sabboth is not Sunday, no Christian who knows what the heck they are talking about will say that it is. Mary, was a virgin untill after Jesus' birth. Nobody knows the exact date of Jesus' birth but show me what is wrong with celebrating it on the 25th of December. Why not celebrate it every day?
Regyt, love is an interesting thing. You dont always marry the first person you love, and you dont have to have sex in order to find out if you are in love. Tell me the truth, if you had no basis of comparison, if you and your spouse were both virgins, how can you tell if the sex isnt good?
DMS, who ever said that it was going to be bareable? I couldnt imagine what it would be like to have that happen. I wont pretend to, but I do know that IT WASNT THE CHILDS FAULT! Why kill the child. Ever hear of the Kick the Dog Theory?
Regyt, an interesting situation, can you honestly say you can go back to a normal life after something like that?
Here is another question, is it a fertalised egg? If not, it will be dead in what a month anyhow, and the spermcells... they go ever 6 hours or so. Big deal! Think of how much sperm is wasted each day in your home town from all the guys who masterbate!
A fertalised egg, that is something differnt than an unfertalised egg and some sperm.
Personally if it ment killing an unborn child, I wouldnt escape. Why? Because that child has yet to prove itself in this world, because it has yet to become a productive member of society, because it isnt fully functional.
Vanize, I like how you imediatly blame the religious type for something you obviusly know nothing about.
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
Quantum Theorist
564 posts
Location: Vansterdam
564 posts
Location: Vansterdam
Posted:
Ray... Oh never mind. I think I'll go continue that arguement with that brick wall in my bedroom. I seem to be making more head way with it. I have mid terms this week and I don't have time for someone who is taking a phillisophical arguement personally.
Ray... Oh never mind. I think I'll go continue that arguement with that brick wall in my bedroom. I seem to be making more head way with it. I have mid terms this week and I don't have time for someone who is taking a phillisophical arguement personally.
In the 60's people took acid to make the world weird, now the world is weird and they take prozac to make it normal again.
I don't want a title.
940 posts
940 posts
Posted:
More to the point, sure, you don't have to have sex to tell that you're in love. My argument is simply that it helps avoid a great many mistakes - some people will figure it out anyway, but most aren't that precocious. Without experience, love and lust are very difficult to distinguish. Don't you remember being in grade school and wondering whether that faintly nauseous feeling in your stomach was love? You had no idea what it was like.
On Issue 1, I fail to see how a fertilized egg is any more of a person than an egg and a sperm are. So they got together - as you say, big deal! Nothing's really changed yet. It's still just a cell. It's nothing but a small mass of potential.. just like an unfertilized egg and a sperm. I can't morally justify forcing a woman into the scenario I described above for mere potential.
On Issue 2, it doesn't even matter that the woman is a productive member of society and the fetus is not. The point is not that abortion is good. It is not good, although it is sometimes necessary or preferable to the alternatives. The point simply is that in the situation I described for you, the kidnappee is the only person who can make that choice.
Remember, pro-choice does not mean pro-abortion. I think pro-lifers tend to misunderstand that.
You would choose the fetus, and I applaud you for that. But that doesn't mean that you get to choose the fetus when you're not the kidnappee. You cannot sacrifice women for your ideals. Only she can choose whether or not she wishes to sacrifice herself.
Even if you consider abortion murder (I do not), it must also be considered self-defense. In every country I can think of, self-defense is a legal justification for murder. No law can forbid it, because what law has power to deter when your life is on the line? To outlaw self-defense is to make law meaningless.
Jewish law (halacha) makes that argument. According to halachic texts, you are permitted to kill your pursuer. The fetus has been seen by some authorities as being the pursuer of the woman. Accordingly, she has the right to rescue herself - and if she chooses to sacrifice herself, she has that right, too.
This abortion debate is getting way off-topic from the abstinence post, though. Perhaps it needs its own thread.
quote:Heehee, my mother used to make the same argument regarding penis size when she was lecturing me on the perks of abstinence.
Originally posted by Raymund Phule:
Regyt, love is an interesting thing. You dont always marry the first person you love, and you dont have to have sex in order to find out if you are in love. Tell me the truth, if you had no basis of comparison, if you and your spouse were both virgins, how can you tell if the sex isnt good?
More to the point, sure, you don't have to have sex to tell that you're in love. My argument is simply that it helps avoid a great many mistakes - some people will figure it out anyway, but most aren't that precocious. Without experience, love and lust are very difficult to distinguish. Don't you remember being in grade school and wondering whether that faintly nauseous feeling in your stomach was love? You had no idea what it was like.
quote:I said the exact opposite, actually. You cannot go back to a normal life after that. If you disagree, please go speak to any woman who has borne a child.
Originally posted by Raymund Phule:
Regyt, an interesting situation, can you honestly say you can go back to a normal life after something like that?
quote:Ah, this is two basic disagreements. Issue 1, when a sperm and an egg become a person? Issue 2, do I sacrifice him or me?
Originally posted by Raymund Phule:
Here is another question, is it a fertalised egg? If not, it will be dead in what a month anyhow, and the spermcells... they go ever 6 hours or so. Big deal! Think of how much sperm is wasted each day in your home town from all the guys who masterbate!
A fertalised egg, that is something differnt than an unfertalised egg and some sperm.
Personally if it ment killing an unborn child, I wouldnt escape. Why? Because that child has yet to prove itself in this world, because it has yet to become a productive member of society, because it isnt fully functional.
On Issue 1, I fail to see how a fertilized egg is any more of a person than an egg and a sperm are. So they got together - as you say, big deal! Nothing's really changed yet. It's still just a cell. It's nothing but a small mass of potential.. just like an unfertilized egg and a sperm. I can't morally justify forcing a woman into the scenario I described above for mere potential.
On Issue 2, it doesn't even matter that the woman is a productive member of society and the fetus is not. The point is not that abortion is good. It is not good, although it is sometimes necessary or preferable to the alternatives. The point simply is that in the situation I described for you, the kidnappee is the only person who can make that choice.
Remember, pro-choice does not mean pro-abortion. I think pro-lifers tend to misunderstand that.
You would choose the fetus, and I applaud you for that. But that doesn't mean that you get to choose the fetus when you're not the kidnappee. You cannot sacrifice women for your ideals. Only she can choose whether or not she wishes to sacrifice herself.
Even if you consider abortion murder (I do not), it must also be considered self-defense. In every country I can think of, self-defense is a legal justification for murder. No law can forbid it, because what law has power to deter when your life is on the line? To outlaw self-defense is to make law meaningless.
Jewish law (halacha) makes that argument. According to halachic texts, you are permitted to kill your pursuer. The fetus has been seen by some authorities as being the pursuer of the woman. Accordingly, she has the right to rescue herself - and if she chooses to sacrifice herself, she has that right, too.
This abortion debate is getting way off-topic from the abstinence post, though. Perhaps it needs its own thread.
E pluribus unum, baby.
SILVER Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,899 posts
Location: Austin, Texas, USA
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,899 posts
Location: Austin, Texas, USA
Posted:
wasn't trying to prove raymond wrong on what day the sabbath is. just saying it is a matter of definition, and if you want to have it every eigth day or on every day starting with an 's', then go ahead.
how does raymond know anything more about any of these issues than I do???
Raymond, I like how you call people who don't agree with you ignorant. You'd get laughed out of debate club for that one. for all you can know from what i've said, I've been disccussing this topic for longer than you've been alive. Point in fact, I have.
Your rashness to insult undermines your credibility.
wasn't trying to prove raymond wrong on what day the sabbath is. just saying it is a matter of definition, and if you want to have it every eigth day or on every day starting with an 's', then go ahead.
how does raymond know anything more about any of these issues than I do???
Raymond, I like how you call people who don't agree with you ignorant. You'd get laughed out of debate club for that one. for all you can know from what i've said, I've been disccussing this topic for longer than you've been alive. Point in fact, I have.
Your rashness to insult undermines your credibility.
-v-
Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!
member
313 posts
Location: london,uk
313 posts
Location: london,uk
Posted:
alright... the pope went to kenya and advised the good christians out there not to use any form of contraception,and instead to practice abstinence,outside of marriage.The results 10 years later speak for themselves,one of the highest birth rates in the world and as for the aids epidemic......
alright... the pope went to kenya and advised the good christians out there not to use any form of contraception,and instead to practice abstinence,outside of marriage.The results 10 years later speak for themselves,one of the highest birth rates in the world and as for the aids epidemic......
SILVER Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,899 posts
Location: Austin, Texas, USA
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,899 posts
Location: Austin, Texas, USA
Posted:
Just spent the morning in this rather conservative christian country of South Africa asking a couple dozen Afrikaans people, who are inevitably part of the "reform church" (i.e. protestants who separated from the European protestants back in the late 1600's), what day the sabbath is. Without exception, they all said "sunday". Imagine that.
I suppose Raymond will now make some remark about South Africans being ignorant, even though they are just repeating what their church has been saying to them for several hundred years. I doubt he will see the irony of such a remark.
All I have to say to the rest of Raymond's rebuke is that he really should go and take some theology classes and actually learn something about the history of his religion.
With that, I am leaving this thread for good and going to have a chat with that brick wall in Frost's bedroom. Have fun guys.
Just spent the morning in this rather conservative christian country of South Africa asking a couple dozen Afrikaans people, who are inevitably part of the "reform church" (i.e. protestants who separated from the European protestants back in the late 1600's), what day the sabbath is. Without exception, they all said "sunday". Imagine that.
I suppose Raymond will now make some remark about South Africans being ignorant, even though they are just repeating what their church has been saying to them for several hundred years. I doubt he will see the irony of such a remark.
All I have to say to the rest of Raymond's rebuke is that he really should go and take some theology classes and actually learn something about the history of his religion.
With that, I am leaving this thread for good and going to have a chat with that brick wall in Frost's bedroom. Have fun guys.
-v-
Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!
Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
Posted:
Umm Regyt, we are both saying that she cant go back to a normal life. So it doesnt matter what she does, she cant get back to a normal life.
Whoa there speedy!! A child is not out to kill the mother. In order for self defence to be a viable case, you have to proove that the other person(s) were trying to harm you, be out numberd and a few other things.
A baby, though accidents can happen in birth, is not capable of taking a womans life. At least not intentionally.
But your right it is off topic.
Vanize, this is a debate club? I mean, should we go back and list the names I have been called... just in this thread? So... how old are you Vanize?
Woodnymph, and that is supposed to mean what?
Vanize, you really do need to just leave this thread, you have nothing constructive to say, your just out to put people down.
Umm Regyt, we are both saying that she cant go back to a normal life. So it doesnt matter what she does, she cant get back to a normal life.
Whoa there speedy!! A child is not out to kill the mother. In order for self defence to be a viable case, you have to proove that the other person(s) were trying to harm you, be out numberd and a few other things.
A baby, though accidents can happen in birth, is not capable of taking a womans life. At least not intentionally.
But your right it is off topic.
Vanize, this is a debate club? I mean, should we go back and list the names I have been called... just in this thread? So... how old are you Vanize?
Woodnymph, and that is supposed to mean what?
Vanize, you really do need to just leave this thread, you have nothing constructive to say, your just out to put people down.
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
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