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2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
Posted:
I know there are several parents, even teachers here and I saw something on the news that made be wonder...
What do yall consider to be the most important thing that your children/students learn while in school?
My personal opinion is that the current courses in our (our being US) dont have the actual classes that are important.
I am not saying that the basics arnt important, I just feel that there are somethings that get left out, that shouldnt be.
I'll go into further deatail later, I would like to hear what yall think first
I know there are several parents, even teachers here and I saw something on the news that made be wonder...
What do yall consider to be the most important thing that your children/students learn while in school?
My personal opinion is that the current courses in our (our being US) dont have the actual classes that are important.
I am not saying that the basics arnt important, I just feel that there are somethings that get left out, that shouldnt be.
I'll go into further deatail later, I would like to hear what yall think first
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Posted:
They should scrap/de-emphasise the vocational stuff, end the examination obsession and teach really useful stuff like: -
handling negative states of mind (fear, anxiety, depression, self doubt)
understanding how to interact peacefully with others and resolve conflicts on a personal level
non competitive physical activities like spinning/circus skills
more access to craft and art based stuff
lastly- introduce a sensible simplified spelling system to replace the current one, so words are spelt exactly how they sound; thus virtually eliminating dyslexia and adult illiteracy whilst reduceing the amount of time spent learning English in schools.
They should scrap/de-emphasise the vocational stuff, end the examination obsession and teach really useful stuff like: -
handling negative states of mind (fear, anxiety, depression, self doubt)
understanding how to interact peacefully with others and resolve conflicts on a personal level
non competitive physical activities like spinning/circus skills
more access to craft and art based stuff
lastly- introduce a sensible simplified spelling system to replace the current one, so words are spelt exactly how they sound; thus virtually eliminating dyslexia and adult illiteracy whilst reduceing the amount of time spent learning English in schools.
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
GOLD Member
now available in "advanced"
6,086 posts
Location: Cornwall, United Kingdom
now available in "advanced"
6,086 posts
Location: Cornwall, United Kingdom
Posted:
In my opinion, in th U.K. there is far too much emphasis on testing the children. This, in turn means that the teachers have to spend all their time and effort on guiding the children specifically for those tests! This prevents the good all round education that people should be entitled to, because all the teachers, through no fault of their own, are too concerned about league tables and inspections and all the paperwork and buerocracy that goes with it to be able to get on with the all important job of actually teching the kids! Sorry for the rant but this comes from the son of a teacher who sees the stress and anguish that tests and inspections can, and do, cause to the teachers!
Much love!
In my opinion, in th U.K. there is far too much emphasis on testing the children. This, in turn means that the teachers have to spend all their time and effort on guiding the children specifically for those tests! This prevents the good all round education that people should be entitled to, because all the teachers, through no fault of their own, are too concerned about league tables and inspections and all the paperwork and buerocracy that goes with it to be able to get on with the all important job of actually teching the kids! Sorry for the rant but this comes from the son of a teacher who sees the stress and anguish that tests and inspections can, and do, cause to the teachers!
Much love!
My state of mind is not yours to define!
There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."
member
103 posts
Location: Oklahoma City, OK, USA
103 posts
Location: Oklahoma City, OK, USA
Posted:
In the US, at least, we need to teach kids more about the REST of the world, so they understand that they're not just a part of the US, but a part of Earth. People here should be concerned by poverty in other countries and the effects of humans on the environment (ie deforestation of the rainforest, oil-drilling in national parks, holes in the ozone over other continents). We aren't concerned though, or we say "I feel bad for those poor starving people in Africa" and go back to our all-you-can-eat buffet, and then wonder why the rest of the world resents us.
In the US, at least, we need to teach kids more about the REST of the world, so they understand that they're not just a part of the US, but a part of Earth. People here should be concerned by poverty in other countries and the effects of humans on the environment (ie deforestation of the rainforest, oil-drilling in national parks, holes in the ozone over other continents). We aren't concerned though, or we say "I feel bad for those poor starving people in Africa" and go back to our all-you-can-eat buffet, and then wonder why the rest of the world resents us.
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Posted:
Here's a link, scroll down to see an example of simplified spelling: -
https://www.spellingsociety.org/pubs/leaflets/cutspelng.html
What you say about dyslexia may be true, but my feeling is that much of our current problems with reading difficulties and what is often classed as dyslexia, would be eliminated if our spelling system was logically coherent.
At present, much of spelling consists of 'rules' with so much inconsistency and lack of logic that they don't deserve to be called rules; it's no wonder that so many children give up on reading.
As for sport, there's a place for it, but currently it's vastly overemphasised in education at hte expense of equally worthy, but non competitive, physical activities such as spinning etc.
quote:The problem with phonetics is that it requires the whole population to learn a new set of symbols; simplified spelling uses the existing way of writing but removes the inconsistencies.
Originally posted by frostypaw:
unfortunately it's MUCH more complicated than our simple 26 characters dyslexias deeply built into people's DNA, it'd happen with seven letters!
wouldn't ya teach them some sport though? there's value in knowing how to compete, and lose, with grace and dignity
Here's a link, scroll down to see an example of simplified spelling: -
https://www.spellingsociety.org/pubs/leaflets/cutspelng.html
What you say about dyslexia may be true, but my feeling is that much of our current problems with reading difficulties and what is often classed as dyslexia, would be eliminated if our spelling system was logically coherent.
At present, much of spelling consists of 'rules' with so much inconsistency and lack of logic that they don't deserve to be called rules; it's no wonder that so many children give up on reading.
As for sport, there's a place for it, but currently it's vastly overemphasised in education at hte expense of equally worthy, but non competitive, physical activities such as spinning etc.
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
member
113 posts
Location: Greece/Athens
113 posts
Location: Greece/Athens
Posted:
I do believe that it's up to the students to give all they can give to school and perform several other activities in their leisure time. . .
It's a fact,that here(Greece)our educational system sucks.It's also a fact thatwe do the hardest courses of many(i think all)other countries....
However,taking all u can get from school helps a lot,giving unlimited knowledge on free for everyone that has open ears. . .
Trust your teachers and moreover listen to your parents. . .
I do believe that it's up to the students to give all they can give to school and perform several other activities in their leisure time. . .
It's a fact,that here(Greece)our educational system sucks.It's also a fact thatwe do the hardest courses of many(i think all)other countries....
However,taking all u can get from school helps a lot,giving unlimited knowledge on free for everyone that has open ears. . .
Trust your teachers and moreover listen to your parents. . .
Metal Rulezzzzzz!!!!!!!!!!!
I don't want a title.
940 posts
940 posts
Posted:
In elementary school, you learn basic social interaction.
In high school, you learn time management.
In college, you learn resource management.
The courses you take are completely unrelated to what you are there to learn. That's part of the process.
In elementary school, you learn basic social interaction.
In high school, you learn time management.
In college, you learn resource management.
The courses you take are completely unrelated to what you are there to learn. That's part of the process.
E pluribus unum, baby.
I don't want a title.
940 posts
940 posts
Posted:
quote:Whoa there. Our spelling, while complex, has a purpose! It's not just about sounds. Different spellings reflect different etymologies and morphemes. Our spelling system is rich with information! Simplified spelling would lose all of that. How terrible that would be.
Originally posted by onewheeldave:
[QUOTE]but my feeling is that much of our current problems with reading difficulties and what is often classed as dyslexia, would be eliminated if our spelling system was logically coherent.
At present, much of spelling consists of 'rules' with so much inconsistency and lack of logic that they don't deserve to be called rules; it's no wonder that so many children give up on reading.
As for sport, there's a place for it, but currently it's vastly overemphasised in education at hte expense of equally worthy, but non competitive, physical activities such as spinning etc.
E pluribus unum, baby.
BRONZE Member
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Posted:
i think there are more important things than what we learn at school. depression and youth suicide is a huge problem and i think skools only add to it with all the pressure they put on students. i think its far more imnportant to ensure students are healthy, both mentally and physically, so that perhaps the course content itself doesnt need to change, but more-so the work load and the way the students are treated by the teachers.
i go to a school where the "student welfare coordinator" told a room full or 16/17/18 year olds that we could still be punished like 12 years olds. now i dont think that thats what school should be about. if we are that old, physically, yet are being punished like youngers, then psychologically, i dont think it helps personal development at all. it only breeds contempt, and i will be honest and say i have pleanty for my school.
i think beuocracies fail so many students. there are more inmportant things to learn in life that doesnt involve advanced trigonometric functions and the unit cirlce. learning to cooperate needs to to go beyond kindergarten, because teenagers and adults need it too.
i think there are more important things than what we learn at school. depression and youth suicide is a huge problem and i think skools only add to it with all the pressure they put on students. i think its far more imnportant to ensure students are healthy, both mentally and physically, so that perhaps the course content itself doesnt need to change, but more-so the work load and the way the students are treated by the teachers.
i go to a school where the "student welfare coordinator" told a room full or 16/17/18 year olds that we could still be punished like 12 years olds. now i dont think that thats what school should be about. if we are that old, physically, yet are being punished like youngers, then psychologically, i dont think it helps personal development at all. it only breeds contempt, and i will be honest and say i have pleanty for my school.
i think beuocracies fail so many students. there are more inmportant things to learn in life that doesnt involve advanced trigonometric functions and the unit cirlce. learning to cooperate needs to to go beyond kindergarten, because teenagers and adults need it too.
i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey
Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...
member
103 posts
Location: Oklahoma City, OK, USA
103 posts
Location: Oklahoma City, OK, USA
Posted:
I think depression and youth suicide are a big problem because of how children treat each other. If we could get kids to stop teasing other kids because of their weight, glasses, braces, acne, fashion, good grades, big nose, big ears, etc then there would be less of a problem with that. Parents and teachers tend to look the other way on that sort of thing, or they laugh along with them. School should be a supportive environment actually revolving around education rather than a social competition. Parents should teach their kids to be more accepting of kids who are different, and teachers should take appropriate action against students who humiliate others. It's that sort of thing that causes kids to want to come to school with guns.
I think depression and youth suicide are a big problem because of how children treat each other. If we could get kids to stop teasing other kids because of their weight, glasses, braces, acne, fashion, good grades, big nose, big ears, etc then there would be less of a problem with that. Parents and teachers tend to look the other way on that sort of thing, or they laugh along with them. School should be a supportive environment actually revolving around education rather than a social competition. Parents should teach their kids to be more accepting of kids who are different, and teachers should take appropriate action against students who humiliate others. It's that sort of thing that causes kids to want to come to school with guns.
Quantum Theorist
564 posts
Location: Vansterdam
564 posts
Location: Vansterdam
Posted:
quote:firstly an early emphasis on speaking english properly so there isn't yet another generation running around saying: "y'all"
Originally posted by Raymund Phule:
...What do yall...
In the 60's people took acid to make the world weird, now the world is weird and they take prozac to make it normal again.
member
313 posts
Location: london,uk
313 posts
Location: london,uk
Posted:
There is a book out there called Magical Child by Joseph Chilton Pearce that outlines a way of raising kids that corresponds to their emotional and biological developement...He advocates not teaching kids to read till their 11 and ready(brainwise)to cope with it.We're all born magical,can heal ourselves etc. but these qualities are gradually lost as we're taught not to trust intuitive side.School focuses too much on our logical side,there needs to be more balance-like wot one wheel dave said...
There is a book out there called Magical Child by Joseph Chilton Pearce that outlines a way of raising kids that corresponds to their emotional and biological developement...He advocates not teaching kids to read till their 11 and ready(brainwise)to cope with it.We're all born magical,can heal ourselves etc. but these qualities are gradually lost as we're taught not to trust intuitive side.School focuses too much on our logical side,there needs to be more balance-like wot one wheel dave said...
BRONZE Member
old hand
1,107 posts
Location: In a test pit, Mackay, Australia
old hand
1,107 posts
Location: In a test pit, Mackay, Australia
Posted:
Schools no longer feel obliged to teach the basics or get to the source of a problem. Recently there was a drive to try and limit the use of calculators by *8 year olds*. What does an 8 year old need a calculator for at all? There was also a drive to provide computers for children, the education minister said this was a good thing as it gave confidence in writing to children who were really bad at it. Well, you still have a child who is really bad a writing at the end of the day, that's curing a symptom, not the problem.
As an Academic and admissions officer, we have seen the decrease in capable students going into the sciences and engineering; too many soft subjects are taught at school leaving potential students completely unable to face the rigours of university science education, opting instead for the same soft subjects at FE level, ultimately leading to nothing other than the Dole queue.
Getting taught Peace, Love and Sanscrit is all well and good, but ultmiately someone has to do the structural engineering/IT support/oil drilling/medicine/leather technology that all require a rigorous education and firm understanding of basic principals of physics, chemistry and maths. It sure ain't going to be the ones who did 14 years of macrame at school.
Schools no longer feel obliged to teach the basics or get to the source of a problem. Recently there was a drive to try and limit the use of calculators by *8 year olds*. What does an 8 year old need a calculator for at all? There was also a drive to provide computers for children, the education minister said this was a good thing as it gave confidence in writing to children who were really bad at it. Well, you still have a child who is really bad a writing at the end of the day, that's curing a symptom, not the problem.
As an Academic and admissions officer, we have seen the decrease in capable students going into the sciences and engineering; too many soft subjects are taught at school leaving potential students completely unable to face the rigours of university science education, opting instead for the same soft subjects at FE level, ultimately leading to nothing other than the Dole queue.
Getting taught Peace, Love and Sanscrit is all well and good, but ultmiately someone has to do the structural engineering/IT support/oil drilling/medicine/leather technology that all require a rigorous education and firm understanding of basic principals of physics, chemistry and maths. It sure ain't going to be the ones who did 14 years of macrame at school.
There is a slight possibility that I am not actually right all of the time.
member
102 posts
Location: London
102 posts
Location: London
Posted:
Well said Eera
I have to disagree with the idea that competitive sport is bad. Kids have to learn how to win and lose gracefully, and work as a team, and play to their strengths while minimising their weaknesses.
I was always one of the last to be picked for teams at school, mostly cos I'm shite at team sports . But anyone who doesn't understand the idea of competitiveness is gonna get trampled on big time in the Big World. Sad but true. Who said a bit of competition was a bad thing anyway?
Well said Eera
I have to disagree with the idea that competitive sport is bad. Kids have to learn how to win and lose gracefully, and work as a team, and play to their strengths while minimising their weaknesses.
I was always one of the last to be picked for teams at school, mostly cos I'm shite at team sports . But anyone who doesn't understand the idea of competitiveness is gonna get trampled on big time in the Big World. Sad but true. Who said a bit of competition was a bad thing anyway?
Why is it that everthing which is fun is illegal, immoral, or fattening?
Lemon-Aware Devilstick-wielding Operative
605 posts
Location: East London Wilds
605 posts
Location: East London Wilds
Posted:
OK, I think it's time to jump in with both feet to this one. My personal opinion, as someone who ended up studying physics at Cambridge, is that the time spent on doing this purely academic subject was well worth it.
I would be inclined to disagree with woodnymph about teaching kids to read late. Our society only started evolving and developing properly not when we could just communicate with each other, but when previous generations didn't have to hand things down in some chinese whispers form. Research has shown (and one just has to look at anyone who is bi-(or more)-lingual to see this) that the time for picking up languages is very early in the stage of development, by about the age of 10, it becomes rather harder to do so. I don't know of any evidence either way, but I'd imagine written language to follow in much the same vein.
As to regyt, I have to agree with her about the simplified spelling. After all, there are many words with different spellings which sound the same, but mean totally different things. This is possible to pick up in spoken language and written language because of context, but I suspect that it would be much harder to read if things were all spelled the same way, as you'd have to keep a lot more in your head about what was going on.
Personally, I'm not too much of a fan of "txt language", though I see it on SMSs, IRC and older talkers. I suppose that in a way I'm surprised that it's become so mainstream when it used to be laughed at as the domain of bulletin-board systems where you had to write things online, and your modem only went at 300baud, so you were severely limited by the response.
As a (one-time) scientist, I do think a scientific basis is absolutely vital in today's world. We rely so much on it, and it teaches you how to approach problems (I was talking to BamBam the other day, about learning poi, and I said that I'd never had any problem with the conceptual planes, because such concepts are absolutely obvious to me now with my background such as it is). I also think that the concepts of "theory, experiment, comparison, refinement" are really useful to be able to understand the world.
History is also vital. If we're going to understand why people think as they do, what mistakes we've made as a race, and what we shouldn't do again, then we must have some understanding of our own world history. History has repeated itself many times, and if we're going to advance we need the recording of things as they happen, and the later analysis of it, from those who weren't there at the time, and thus have some hope of being objective about it.
Literature and Art (of various kinds) are as important as history in terms of understanding people, and since the only way we're all going to live together is to try and understand our similarities and our differences, then understanding emotional expression of various cultures will be just as important.
I've missed out Languages here, though I feel that the usefulness of them is fairly obvious, though once one has the ability to speak another language well enough, one might understand more about the other culture.
OK, so this has turned into a bit of a rant, but I think that even if someone doesn't have a full appreciation for any one of these, they do need to have a basic grounding in all of them, in order that later when they realise that it's not possible to know everything they haven't restricted themselves. Not only that, but a basic grounding in all of these can also prove very useful later on for much cross-discipline understanding.
OK, I think it's time to jump in with both feet to this one. My personal opinion, as someone who ended up studying physics at Cambridge, is that the time spent on doing this purely academic subject was well worth it.
I would be inclined to disagree with woodnymph about teaching kids to read late. Our society only started evolving and developing properly not when we could just communicate with each other, but when previous generations didn't have to hand things down in some chinese whispers form. Research has shown (and one just has to look at anyone who is bi-(or more)-lingual to see this) that the time for picking up languages is very early in the stage of development, by about the age of 10, it becomes rather harder to do so. I don't know of any evidence either way, but I'd imagine written language to follow in much the same vein.
As to regyt, I have to agree with her about the simplified spelling. After all, there are many words with different spellings which sound the same, but mean totally different things. This is possible to pick up in spoken language and written language because of context, but I suspect that it would be much harder to read if things were all spelled the same way, as you'd have to keep a lot more in your head about what was going on.
Personally, I'm not too much of a fan of "txt language", though I see it on SMSs, IRC and older talkers. I suppose that in a way I'm surprised that it's become so mainstream when it used to be laughed at as the domain of bulletin-board systems where you had to write things online, and your modem only went at 300baud, so you were severely limited by the response.
As a (one-time) scientist, I do think a scientific basis is absolutely vital in today's world. We rely so much on it, and it teaches you how to approach problems (I was talking to BamBam the other day, about learning poi, and I said that I'd never had any problem with the conceptual planes, because such concepts are absolutely obvious to me now with my background such as it is). I also think that the concepts of "theory, experiment, comparison, refinement" are really useful to be able to understand the world.
History is also vital. If we're going to understand why people think as they do, what mistakes we've made as a race, and what we shouldn't do again, then we must have some understanding of our own world history. History has repeated itself many times, and if we're going to advance we need the recording of things as they happen, and the later analysis of it, from those who weren't there at the time, and thus have some hope of being objective about it.
Literature and Art (of various kinds) are as important as history in terms of understanding people, and since the only way we're all going to live together is to try and understand our similarities and our differences, then understanding emotional expression of various cultures will be just as important.
I've missed out Languages here, though I feel that the usefulness of them is fairly obvious, though once one has the ability to speak another language well enough, one might understand more about the other culture.
OK, so this has turned into a bit of a rant, but I think that even if someone doesn't have a full appreciation for any one of these, they do need to have a basic grounding in all of them, in order that later when they realise that it's not possible to know everything they haven't restricted themselves. Not only that, but a basic grounding in all of these can also prove very useful later on for much cross-discipline understanding.
Luv 'n' Lemons
purity :: clarity :: balance
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Posted:
Could you give some specific examples of the kind of info that would be lost?
quote:I'm not entirely sure what you mean here.
Originally posted by regyt:
[QUOTE]Whoa there. Our spelling, while complex, has a purpose! It's not just about sounds. Different spellings reflect different etymologies and morphemes. Our spelling system is rich with information! Simplified spelling would lose all of that. How terrible that would be.
Could you give some specific examples of the kind of info that would be lost?
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Posted:
Simply that it's overemphasised and that there should be alternatives for those not comfortable with it.
Spinning/unicycling/juggling etc are not only physically good (in some ways better cos of low injury risk) but will teach valuable lessons in challenging yourself, self improvement and the fact that one can push oneself without competing against others.
quote:I'm not saying competitive sport is bad.
Originally posted by Ali-bird:
I have to disagree with the idea that competitive sport is bad. Kids have to learn how to win and lose gracefully, and work as a team, and play to their strengths while minimising their weaknesses.
Simply that it's overemphasised and that there should be alternatives for those not comfortable with it.
Spinning/unicycling/juggling etc are not only physically good (in some ways better cos of low injury risk) but will teach valuable lessons in challenging yourself, self improvement and the fact that one can push oneself without competing against others.
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Posted:
Let me make my position on simplified spelling clear. My spellings ok, I'm university educated and highly literate; to me texting and cs look ugly.
Here's an example of cs: -
Th basic shape of most words, by wich we recognize them, is not fundmently altrd, and nearly al those that ar mor substantialy chanjed ar quikly decoded; very few ar truly puzlng. This means that, if al printd matr sudnly apeard in CS tomoro, peples readng ability wud not be seriusly afectd.
The first time I saw it I laughed, and the thought of it being widely adopted was not a pleasant one.
But, I'm one of the lucky majority who managed to learn to read and write ok; there's a substantial minority who fail to do so.
For some it's because their brain hardware simply can't cope well with the illogicality and inconsistencies of English spelling; for others it's because of ineffective and understaffed education facilities.
If English spelling was made consistent and followed solid logical rules, it would be far easier to learn, which would alleviate both the above.
I've worked in schools teaching web site design where many of the school leaving age people couldn't spell basic words properly. Much of the time was spent with me having to spell out, letter by letter, what they were wanting to write.
In this country adult illiteracy is rife, there's a major push to get loads more people teaching basic skills to adults.
English doesn't have to be illogical and inconsistent, it can be changed so that it follows solid, easy to learn rules.
cs looks ugly, but ask yourself why.
Isn't it the case that conventional spelling looks ok simply because it's what we grow used to over 15+ years of education?
Imagine how you'd feel if you were educated with a logical spelling system like cs, and then were shown an example of conventional English spelling; it would not only look ugly, but you would be unable to read it because it isn't logical in the way cs is.
Those of you who can read/write well should look deep within and ask yourself why you're so opposed; you're the lucky ones who learnt well, are you really happy condemning future generations to the same illiteracy problems we have now.
Let me make my position on simplified spelling clear. My spellings ok, I'm university educated and highly literate; to me texting and cs look ugly.
Here's an example of cs: -
Th basic shape of most words, by wich we recognize them, is not fundmently altrd, and nearly al those that ar mor substantialy chanjed ar quikly decoded; very few ar truly puzlng. This means that, if al printd matr sudnly apeard in CS tomoro, peples readng ability wud not be seriusly afectd.
The first time I saw it I laughed, and the thought of it being widely adopted was not a pleasant one.
But, I'm one of the lucky majority who managed to learn to read and write ok; there's a substantial minority who fail to do so.
For some it's because their brain hardware simply can't cope well with the illogicality and inconsistencies of English spelling; for others it's because of ineffective and understaffed education facilities.
If English spelling was made consistent and followed solid logical rules, it would be far easier to learn, which would alleviate both the above.
I've worked in schools teaching web site design where many of the school leaving age people couldn't spell basic words properly. Much of the time was spent with me having to spell out, letter by letter, what they were wanting to write.
In this country adult illiteracy is rife, there's a major push to get loads more people teaching basic skills to adults.
English doesn't have to be illogical and inconsistent, it can be changed so that it follows solid, easy to learn rules.
cs looks ugly, but ask yourself why.
Isn't it the case that conventional spelling looks ok simply because it's what we grow used to over 15+ years of education?
Imagine how you'd feel if you were educated with a logical spelling system like cs, and then were shown an example of conventional English spelling; it would not only look ugly, but you would be unable to read it because it isn't logical in the way cs is.
Those of you who can read/write well should look deep within and ask yourself why you're so opposed; you're the lucky ones who learnt well, are you really happy condemning future generations to the same illiteracy problems we have now.
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
Lemon-Aware Devilstick-wielding Operative
605 posts
Location: East London Wilds
605 posts
Location: East London Wilds
Posted:
onewheeldave: I have one word for you: "Esperanto". English has a history, it's been integrated with so many languages. Esperanto has been made to be easy to learn and spell. Russian is also spelled pretty much as you'd expect. Esperanto is a really ugly language to look at, in my opinion, equally ugly whatever language you're coming from...
onewheeldave: I have one word for you: "Esperanto". English has a history, it's been integrated with so many languages. Esperanto has been made to be easy to learn and spell. Russian is also spelled pretty much as you'd expect. Esperanto is a really ugly language to look at, in my opinion, equally ugly whatever language you're coming from...
Luv 'n' Lemons
purity :: clarity :: balance
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
Science. LOTS of science.
Science. LOTS of science.
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Posted:
Whatever spelling system you use there will be incosistencies and some 'botching'.
The point is that simplified spelling will have far less of them.
quote:Generally the context of the sentence they occur in is more than sufficient for the difference to be clear.
Originally posted by frostypaw:
fore and four? free and three?
Whatever spelling system you use there will be incosistencies and some 'botching'.
The point is that simplified spelling will have far less of them.
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Posted:
I'm talking about simplified spelling i.e. English exactly as we know it, but with consistent and logical spelling of the words.
Do you consider Russian to be ugly?
Apparently Italian is spelt as it's pronounced, I believe that it has much lower levels of adult illiteracy than Britain.
quote:Esperanto is a language.
Originally posted by Matthew B-M:
onewheeldave: I have one word for you: "Esperanto". English has a history, it's been integrated with so many languages. Esperanto has been made to be easy to learn and spell. Russian is also spelled pretty much as you'd expect. Esperanto is a really ugly language to look at, in my opinion, equally ugly whatever language you're coming from...
I'm talking about simplified spelling i.e. English exactly as we know it, but with consistent and logical spelling of the words.
Do you consider Russian to be ugly?
Apparently Italian is spelt as it's pronounced, I believe that it has much lower levels of adult illiteracy than Britain.
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
SILVER Member
All the neurotic makings of America's lesser known sweetheart
9,831 posts
Location: body in Las Vegas, heart all around the world, USA
All the neurotic makings of America's lesser known sweetheart
9,831 posts
Location: body in Las Vegas, heart all around the world, USA
Posted:
part of my undergrad degree was in education, specifically i'm a big fan of alternative education programs. they have a HUGE benefit to kids, but the problem is most schools only identify the "bright" kids to place into the programs (i.e. GATE, AT, etc). and there are a lot of alternative higher education programs as well. check out https://www.edrev.org/ahen/members.html
there's a listing of all higher education schools that are memebers of the alternative higher education network.
also you can check our their mainpage for the organization
https://www.educationrevolution.org/ahenmain.html
i attended a alt. ed. college and it was the most enriching experience of my life. i couldn't have asked for a better school. i'm actually attending my reunion this february and i can't wait!!!
part of my undergrad degree was in education, specifically i'm a big fan of alternative education programs. they have a HUGE benefit to kids, but the problem is most schools only identify the "bright" kids to place into the programs (i.e. GATE, AT, etc). and there are a lot of alternative higher education programs as well. check out https://www.edrev.org/ahen/members.html
there's a listing of all higher education schools that are memebers of the alternative higher education network.
also you can check our their mainpage for the organization
https://www.educationrevolution.org/ahenmain.html
i attended a alt. ed. college and it was the most enriching experience of my life. i couldn't have asked for a better school. i'm actually attending my reunion this february and i can't wait!!!
I was always scared with my mother's obsession with the good scissors. It made me wonder if there were evil scissors lurking in the house somewhere.
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.
**giggles**
BRONZE Member
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
Posted:
What Regyt said about elementary teaching social, high school teaching time management and college teaching resource management is ideal, but not how it happens.
In elementary they should not only be learning to tell time, to add and subtract, to read and write (and not in frelling cursive. To me that is ***the most useless*** thing taught in schools) but also the children should be taught problem solving and social skills. I had enroll my son in a chess club for this.
Instead kids are segregated into groups which make the smarter kids advance and gives extra help to those a bit slower, which I understand. However, this does not help advance thier social skills because it creates a divide in the children.
In high school, world history perspective should be taught. History is primarily written by the victors and so has perspective to it...this needs to be recognized. I think further social skills should be emphasized. Time management should be worked on, not handed to in the form of ready made schedules. Money management needs be taught, most definately. And I am not talking accounting and micro-economics. I am talking balancing a checkbook, consumer math (to figure out when you are getting ripped off on those percentage rates), setting up household accounts and budgetting. This is one of the most important skills that no school I have ever taught in offered. Basic life skills..sewing, cooking (not cake making). Anger/Emotion management.
I think college is the place to get the trades, the career specific type things. In theory high school prepares us for that, or for life on the outside if we choose not to go further with our education. This belief is a lie and a severe let down.
Other useless classes that I had to take, in my opinion? Wood shop in 8th grade. No point. None of it stuck with me. Economics in 11th grade. Not how to manage money. Nope it was alot more grand than that and all I remember from the class is my teacher was in the local theater productions so we talked about that. Anything made mandatory that is career specific. I never took physics and am not bad off for missing it.
This is all just my opinion though, as a once special ed. teacher and mother to a (now) 3rd grader (8 yo).
Oh, and I think that our spelling system works just fine and if we were to change it Dyslexia would still exsist. The disorder has nothing to do with our system. And I believe competitive sports are *extremely* important in teaching children to deal with wins and more especially losses. But that too depends on the coach. Sometimes it is not just what is being taught, but who is doing the teaching as well.
What Regyt said about elementary teaching social, high school teaching time management and college teaching resource management is ideal, but not how it happens.
In elementary they should not only be learning to tell time, to add and subtract, to read and write (and not in frelling cursive. To me that is ***the most useless*** thing taught in schools) but also the children should be taught problem solving and social skills. I had enroll my son in a chess club for this.
Instead kids are segregated into groups which make the smarter kids advance and gives extra help to those a bit slower, which I understand. However, this does not help advance thier social skills because it creates a divide in the children.
In high school, world history perspective should be taught. History is primarily written by the victors and so has perspective to it...this needs to be recognized. I think further social skills should be emphasized. Time management should be worked on, not handed to in the form of ready made schedules. Money management needs be taught, most definately. And I am not talking accounting and micro-economics. I am talking balancing a checkbook, consumer math (to figure out when you are getting ripped off on those percentage rates), setting up household accounts and budgetting. This is one of the most important skills that no school I have ever taught in offered. Basic life skills..sewing, cooking (not cake making). Anger/Emotion management.
I think college is the place to get the trades, the career specific type things. In theory high school prepares us for that, or for life on the outside if we choose not to go further with our education. This belief is a lie and a severe let down.
Other useless classes that I had to take, in my opinion? Wood shop in 8th grade. No point. None of it stuck with me. Economics in 11th grade. Not how to manage money. Nope it was alot more grand than that and all I remember from the class is my teacher was in the local theater productions so we talked about that. Anything made mandatory that is career specific. I never took physics and am not bad off for missing it.
This is all just my opinion though, as a once special ed. teacher and mother to a (now) 3rd grader (8 yo).
Oh, and I think that our spelling system works just fine and if we were to change it Dyslexia would still exsist. The disorder has nothing to do with our system. And I believe competitive sports are *extremely* important in teaching children to deal with wins and more especially losses. But that too depends on the coach. Sometimes it is not just what is being taught, but who is doing the teaching as well.
Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Posted:
quote:How do you account for the high levels of illiteracy then?
Originally posted by Pele:
...Oh, and I think that our spelling system works just fine...
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
Posted:
Look, Im Southern, back off we have words yall aint even thought of yet! Our level of sophistication is so advanced we have lost the need to use all yalls petty grammer rules! (then of course you have the redneck spelling of the southern words... that is where it gets complicated!)
Ahh the Jabberwockey (did I spell that right, I havnt seen that poem since 6th grade... roughly '93-'94 hahaha)
English is important, so is science, vocational skills are also important, learning to be competitive, well it is important... to a point but if you have ever lived in the "Football Belt" of the US you will see sports at their worst.
(I am not a fan of education supported sports programs)
In my opinion I feel that our education system is teaching people how to go out and get a job. You may ask what in the world is wrong with this... but I tell you it is the downfall of society.
In America the unemployed rates are climbing, along with bankruptsy and every day millions more find themselves up to thier necks in debt.
98% of the US work force trade their time for money.
This is really a bad concept.
The schools today should focus more on finances, and making money work for you, than sports, math, music, science, vo-tech...
Ask any doctor out there, how much their insurance is, ask them how much their student loans are, ask them how much debt they are in... While granted the world needs as many doctors as it can get, it just isnt a profetable business.
Doctor, can be replaced with just about any job.
If money is power, why is it that only 2% of Americans seem to have it? If to have enough money to live comfertable life is so important, why do 2% seem to have it? Why are schools and colleges/uni's breeding employes not employers?
A strong financial education will breed an even stronger work force.
Doctors wont have to worry about people sueing them for millions, the need for welfare will disapear (thus resulting in lower taxes), there will be an increase of valuable trades, the 9-5 grind will go out of existance as will most cases of the "Mondays" because people will only work because they love what they do, and will only work because they know that they are being treated properly, fairly and that they are not just trading time for money, but instead they are investing their time in a worth while cause.
(I bet that made you English majors cringe... wow what a run on scentance that was hahahaha)
Econimies will climb, scuicide rates will drop, people will be overall happier.
Teach people to understand their money and they will appriciate it far more than anyone can grasp.
Look, Im Southern, back off we have words yall aint even thought of yet! Our level of sophistication is so advanced we have lost the need to use all yalls petty grammer rules! (then of course you have the redneck spelling of the southern words... that is where it gets complicated!)
Ahh the Jabberwockey (did I spell that right, I havnt seen that poem since 6th grade... roughly '93-'94 hahaha)
English is important, so is science, vocational skills are also important, learning to be competitive, well it is important... to a point but if you have ever lived in the "Football Belt" of the US you will see sports at their worst.
(I am not a fan of education supported sports programs)
In my opinion I feel that our education system is teaching people how to go out and get a job. You may ask what in the world is wrong with this... but I tell you it is the downfall of society.
In America the unemployed rates are climbing, along with bankruptsy and every day millions more find themselves up to thier necks in debt.
98% of the US work force trade their time for money.
This is really a bad concept.
The schools today should focus more on finances, and making money work for you, than sports, math, music, science, vo-tech...
Ask any doctor out there, how much their insurance is, ask them how much their student loans are, ask them how much debt they are in... While granted the world needs as many doctors as it can get, it just isnt a profetable business.
Doctor, can be replaced with just about any job.
If money is power, why is it that only 2% of Americans seem to have it? If to have enough money to live comfertable life is so important, why do 2% seem to have it? Why are schools and colleges/uni's breeding employes not employers?
A strong financial education will breed an even stronger work force.
Doctors wont have to worry about people sueing them for millions, the need for welfare will disapear (thus resulting in lower taxes), there will be an increase of valuable trades, the 9-5 grind will go out of existance as will most cases of the "Mondays" because people will only work because they love what they do, and will only work because they know that they are being treated properly, fairly and that they are not just trading time for money, but instead they are investing their time in a worth while cause.
(I bet that made you English majors cringe... wow what a run on scentance that was hahahaha)
Econimies will climb, scuicide rates will drop, people will be overall happier.
Teach people to understand their money and they will appriciate it far more than anyone can grasp.
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
BRONZE Member
Mistress of Pink...Multicoloured
6,140 posts
Location: Over There, United Kingdom
Mistress of Pink...Multicoloured
6,140 posts
Location: Over There, United Kingdom
Posted:
I think that the English schooling system is too far exam based as has been mentioned earlier on.
I also want to pick up on what someone said about languages. I think in primary school children should learn at least more one other language. My cousin who lives in France is only 5 and has already started learning English and Spanish at school. When i was five i didn't even realise there was any other languages then English! I see language as a way to communicate with different cultures and overcome many barriers that are put in the way. I only wish i was taught other languages at a younger age.
Religious Studies is a good part of the English system it is compulsary for students to study RS untill they are 16. It make you understand not only other religions and their beliefs but we also studied important life issues such as abortion, euthansia and marriage (i know these all tie in with religion). It opened my eyes to the world and other peoples points of view.
Lastly i think History is important. As the well known phrase goes "we learn from our mistakes". If everyone took note of things that had happened in history then we wouldn't have all the things happening that we do today. I found studying history a real eye opener to the way our society has been sculptured by our past.
I think that the English schooling system is too far exam based as has been mentioned earlier on.
I also want to pick up on what someone said about languages. I think in primary school children should learn at least more one other language. My cousin who lives in France is only 5 and has already started learning English and Spanish at school. When i was five i didn't even realise there was any other languages then English! I see language as a way to communicate with different cultures and overcome many barriers that are put in the way. I only wish i was taught other languages at a younger age.
Religious Studies is a good part of the English system it is compulsary for students to study RS untill they are 16. It make you understand not only other religions and their beliefs but we also studied important life issues such as abortion, euthansia and marriage (i know these all tie in with religion). It opened my eyes to the world and other peoples points of view.
Lastly i think History is important. As the well known phrase goes "we learn from our mistakes". If everyone took note of things that had happened in history then we wouldn't have all the things happening that we do today. I found studying history a real eye opener to the way our society has been sculptured by our past.
Never pick up a duck in a dungeon...
Lemon-Aware Devilstick-wielding Operative
605 posts
Location: East London Wilds
605 posts
Location: East London Wilds
Posted:
onewheeldave: no, I don't consider russian to be ugly. However, I don't believe that punning is a particularly russian pastime. I appreciate that Esperanto is a language, and it was one that was designed (rather than evolved) to be easy to learn.
Anyway, in response to Pele, I see where you're coming from, but from experience I think that life skills such as those that you mentioned are not something to be taught in school (directly), however, any system that teaches to just pass exams and not go for solving problems is in fundamental contravention of the aims of schooling, in my opinion. I was very fortunate in being at a school where that was the case. In particular, though, that seemed to me much more what my degree was about.
Dunno, though.
onewheeldave: no, I don't consider russian to be ugly. However, I don't believe that punning is a particularly russian pastime. I appreciate that Esperanto is a language, and it was one that was designed (rather than evolved) to be easy to learn.
Anyway, in response to Pele, I see where you're coming from, but from experience I think that life skills such as those that you mentioned are not something to be taught in school (directly), however, any system that teaches to just pass exams and not go for solving problems is in fundamental contravention of the aims of schooling, in my opinion. I was very fortunate in being at a school where that was the case. In particular, though, that seemed to me much more what my degree was about.
Dunno, though.
Luv 'n' Lemons
purity :: clarity :: balance
(*) (*) .. for the gnor ;)
2,568 posts
Location: sitting on the step
2,568 posts
Location: sitting on the step
Posted:
i think its important to have a balance of all the basic subjects - math english science history geography art music and PE
but in addition languags should be taught from a young age - i personnal find it difficult to learn other languages im useles at english as it is, and didnt start studying them till i was 12, i feel if i had been taught them at a younger age it may have been easier for me to grasp.
i was taught life skills at school - this delt with subjects from the birds and bees talk to being bullied to sexual assult etc.
we were also taught home ec - this delt with dealing with you personal 'house hold finances' to how to cook a nutritious meal - i know sooo many people who cant cook and well its a basic need in life to eat!
i also think afterschool activities are important, it allows a child to thrive in an area they're interested in, in turn boosting there confidence, it also keeps them off the streets.
i also think that exams should be gotten rid of, so many intelligent people loose it under exam pressure and screw up on their exam and are then branded an idiot until they prove themselves again. i screwed up my GCSE's but managed to get into the 6th form college i wanted to go to. the course i took was one where you are continually assest, you were also given a project and left to sort out your own time management etc of course the tutors were there to help you along if you need it.
i think the student teacher relationship is hugely important - learning should be fun and not a chore, my teachers were like friends in a way that we looked up to and respected and they were funny. i could have gone to any of my teachers at school if i had had a problem (obviously you have your favourites)
parents also hold a reponsibility to educate the children,
i think its important to have a balance of all the basic subjects - math english science history geography art music and PE
but in addition languags should be taught from a young age - i personnal find it difficult to learn other languages im useles at english as it is, and didnt start studying them till i was 12, i feel if i had been taught them at a younger age it may have been easier for me to grasp.
i was taught life skills at school - this delt with subjects from the birds and bees talk to being bullied to sexual assult etc.
we were also taught home ec - this delt with dealing with you personal 'house hold finances' to how to cook a nutritious meal - i know sooo many people who cant cook and well its a basic need in life to eat!
i also think afterschool activities are important, it allows a child to thrive in an area they're interested in, in turn boosting there confidence, it also keeps them off the streets.
i also think that exams should be gotten rid of, so many intelligent people loose it under exam pressure and screw up on their exam and are then branded an idiot until they prove themselves again. i screwed up my GCSE's but managed to get into the 6th form college i wanted to go to. the course i took was one where you are continually assest, you were also given a project and left to sort out your own time management etc of course the tutors were there to help you along if you need it.
i think the student teacher relationship is hugely important - learning should be fun and not a chore, my teachers were like friends in a way that we looked up to and respected and they were funny. i could have gone to any of my teachers at school if i had had a problem (obviously you have your favourites)
parents also hold a reponsibility to educate the children,
she who sees from up high smiles
Patrick badger king: *they better hope there's never a jihad on stupidity*
Quantum Theorist
564 posts
Location: Vansterdam
564 posts
Location: Vansterdam
Posted:
in order of importance
- English
- Math/Calc
- Science
- Focused vocational training ( in area of interest ie: a set of 3 or so classes that are set out as a group. for example students interested in computer science would take a class in Computer programming (preferably in C++ or Java), in hardware something like MCSE, A+ etc (and industry standard cert), and in networking and sys admin something like CCNA or CCNP (again industry standard cert). If they were to do this starting in grad 11 when they graduate high school they'd leave with a cert in there area of choice.)
They have already begun doing this in my city in partner ship with the University. I am fine product of this program. And am now persuing a Bach of Applied Science in Computer Eng. at UCC and will be tranfering to UBC or BCIT next year.
in order of importance
- English
- Math/Calc
- Science
- Focused vocational training ( in area of interest ie: a set of 3 or so classes that are set out as a group. for example students interested in computer science would take a class in Computer programming (preferably in C++ or Java), in hardware something like MCSE, A+ etc (and industry standard cert), and in networking and sys admin something like CCNA or CCNP (again industry standard cert). If they were to do this starting in grad 11 when they graduate high school they'd leave with a cert in there area of choice.)
They have already begun doing this in my city in partner ship with the University. I am fine product of this program. And am now persuing a Bach of Applied Science in Computer Eng. at UCC and will be tranfering to UBC or BCIT next year.
In the 60's people took acid to make the world weird, now the world is weird and they take prozac to make it normal again.
Lemon-Aware Devilstick-wielding Operative
605 posts
Location: East London Wilds
605 posts
Location: East London Wilds
Posted:
The point about schooling is to teach you the groundings so that when you start doing things which are vocational, you don't need to go over basic things (such as how to add numbers), and primarily goes into such things as how you break the problems down, and how you can build bigger solutions out of smaller pieces, and very much more so, how to identify where the edge cases are such that this doesn't work, and you have to approach the problem in a different way. Even then, that is not necessarily what one is taught in vocational courses. I don't, for the most part, think that vocational courses have a place until about age 16 or so.
I think another thing that I forgot to add was that it was possible to do my A-Level physics syllabus (getting on for 10 years ago) without knowing any calculus. I regard this as a deplorable situation, in terms of where the starting point for the University is.
quote:Right, I think this is an utterly crazy idea. Anyone with any hiring sense knows that an MCSE is pretty much meaningless, and a CCNA and CCNP are not much better. (CCIE on the other hand, but that's a different story). It is worth pointing out at this point that a Computer Science degree (emphasis mine) is based on more than just "can you write C++ or Java" neither of which are languages I particularly like, not to mention that I don't think schoolkids necessarily have the maturity to write decent maintainable code.
- Focused vocational training ( in area of interest ie: a set of 3 or so classes that are set out as a group. for example students interested in computer science would take a class in Computer programming (preferably in C++ or Java), in hardware something like MCSE, A+ etc (and industry standard cert), and in networking and sys admin something like CCNA or CCNP (again industry standard cert). If they were to do this starting in grad 11 when they graduate high school they'd leave with a cert in there area of choice.)
The point about schooling is to teach you the groundings so that when you start doing things which are vocational, you don't need to go over basic things (such as how to add numbers), and primarily goes into such things as how you break the problems down, and how you can build bigger solutions out of smaller pieces, and very much more so, how to identify where the edge cases are such that this doesn't work, and you have to approach the problem in a different way. Even then, that is not necessarily what one is taught in vocational courses. I don't, for the most part, think that vocational courses have a place until about age 16 or so.
I think another thing that I forgot to add was that it was possible to do my A-Level physics syllabus (getting on for 10 years ago) without knowing any calculus. I regard this as a deplorable situation, in terms of where the starting point for the University is.
Luv 'n' Lemons
purity :: clarity :: balance
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