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onewheeldaveGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom


Posted:
reading this-



[Old link]



and this-



[Old link]



i felt the need to make comment, but, the reply button would not work on either, so I guess they've been locked?



From the perspective of a (long-standing) member of the HOP community, i felt it was important to put forward two points-



1. why some may feel the need to talk about the banning of another long-standing member of the community, not necessarily to criticise those who made that decision, but, simply because that is what community members do when someone is exiled- they feel the need to talk about it



2. address the posted comment by a mod that, from the perspectice of a mod, any discussion of said members banning, is necessarily disrespectful to the mods



To elaborate on point 2, IMO, the discussion on the threads that have been removed or locked, did not come across as disrespectful to the mods.



To question a decision is not necessarily disrespectful.



It's true that the banning of NYC has gone largely unnoticed, till now. But, now, it has very much been noticed and, to expect this community to not talk about it, is, IMO, unrealistic.



There may be very good background reasons why it's seen as best for no discussion to take place, but, obviously, from the perspective of the community, those reasons are not known.



I know it's a difficult thing to make judgements on.



The main thing I want to say is that I find it very unpleasent when multiple threads are locked or removed, when, in my eyes, they contained nothing offensive.



I would also like the mods to examine the possibility that the pulled/stoped discussions are actually not disrespectful to HOP or the mods, but are simply members of the community discussing something which is important to them.



I'm assuming that this thread is not also going to be seen as disrespectful- it's certainly not intended as such.



If threads discussing this chain of events are going to be systematically pulled or locked, then, like many here, I'm going to be wondering whether I'm part of this community any more.



A community talks- that's the point of it.



If that talk is abusive, damaging, hurtful, then it has to be pulled- no questions about it.



But I'm concerned that what is developing here is the pulling of stuff that is not at all abusive, damaging or hurtful.



Banning someone for good reasons is one thing, but expecting the community to 'never again utter their name' is dodgy as hell smile

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


MikeGinnyGOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA


Posted:
Yakumo, because I've seen a lot of braying about her but nobody's brought up a specific incident outside of this thread.

-Mike

Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella



A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura


GnorBRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
5,814 posts
Location: Perth, Australia


Posted:
Posting isnt the only form of activity but how else do you judge activity on the site. If a member/mod reads every post but doesnt respond it doesnt mean thyey arent active . We cant see what the serene little ducks are doing underwater.

Is it the Truth?
Is it Fair to all concerned?
Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?

Im in a lonely battle with the world with a fish to match the chip on my shoulder. Gnu in Binnu in a cnu


burningoftheclaveySILVER Member
lurking like a ninja with no camouflage..
926 posts
Location: over yonder, New Zealand


Posted:
 Written by :Spanner


 Written by :Pyrolific


In fact, I've been criticised by some members for being too soft, and trying to see too much good in people and other related wussy things wink



Which is interesting as we currently see moderators are also being criticised for being too hard. Maybe there's the tendency to attempt to solve this by switching to the other extreme end instead of the "moderate" middle way.




I've got it! All we need to do is have Pele and flash mod together....it'll be like good cop, bad cop! biggrin grouphug sunny

on spam robots - "Burn the robot! Melt him down, and then we can make lots and lots of money from his shiiiny juices!"

Owned by Brenn smile


Rouge DragonBRONZE Member
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia


Posted:
 Written by :Gnor


Posting isnt the only form of activity but how else do you judge activity on the site. If a member/mod reads every post but doesnt respond it doesnt mean thyey arent active . We cant see what the serene little ducks are doing underwater.



That's what I was thinking.

i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...


FireTomStargazer
6,650 posts

Posted:
Sides Doc shrug

My last post has been a bit cryptic, excuse me I was distracted.

Mods should be chosen by the Admins, only the Admins and the Admins alone. Public opinion has nothing to do with this topic. If they choose to have the audience de/select Mods then just as a courtesy, period.

A Mod is a good Mod when he is present and does his job, takes decisions/ actions that might even be highly unpopular - as happened here.

Apart from that: is this about Megs and Robs threads getting closed, NYC's ban or what is the topic exactly? confused

Sorry got lost somewhere between the threads... shrug

the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink


PeleBRONZE Member
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA


Posted:
 Written by :onewheeldave


For me, a mod so do what a mod should do, i.e.-

1. be objective
2. implement board guidelines impartialy
3. never post in an inflammatory manner
4. deal with anyone who does post in a flaming or troll fashion

And, for me, that's it- whether they have the respect of the community isn't anywhere near as relevant as whether they're doing their job properly.

Presumably, if a mod has no respect, it would be because, in some way, they are not following points 1-4?

In that case, it would seem best to fault them on what it is they are specifically failing on?

The very last thing a mod should be aiming for, is winning admiration, respect or popularity- that should be irrelevant.

I've always found, amongst the juggling and spinning communities, that cliquism and 'popularity' is rife- I don't want it playing a part in HOP moderation.



I agree with you on all points OWD, and would like to put up this for thought.

If a person, mod, police officer, school principal, follows those guidelines then sometimes *that* is what makes him/her unpopular, esp due to the clique(tribe/village) nature of humanity and the desire to protect it.

And yes, I know alot of people respect police, etc. But I also know people who have had friends/loved ones arrested for what honestly might seem to be something small but still illegal (a joint, for example) and now they, as a collective, have no respect for the police.

Just a thought to share.

Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK


Rouge DragonBRONZE Member
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia


Posted:
But respect still needs to be earned. One cannot simply demand respect simply because they've got a certain job.

i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...


FireTomStargazer
6,650 posts

Posted:
But Rouge, nobody ever taught you to respect Santa? umm wink

By what is respect earned anyway? You'll always find some snotbag coming around the corner and being larger than life... ubblol

Point being: whatever your 'natural authority' - especially on the internet only those who keep quiet in the background will be respected - those who are on public display will always receive criticism... I reckon.

the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink


Rouge DragonBRONZE Member
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia


Posted:
Santa can drive a sleigh after drinking litres of brandy! RESPECT!!! ubblol



I don't think it's about being on public display; you can still be on public display and respected. I often think in terms of teachers at school; the teachers that demanded respect without earning any HATED me because I didn't respect them. On the other hand, there were teachers who earned my respect and many of those still have it. Some teachers even realised that my respect couldn't be demanded and had to be earned, and we got along fine after they realised that and then earned it.



So how did they earn my respect?



Hmmm....by not treating me like scum, by treating me like a person, being approachable, realistic, didn't yell all the time and only when needed, didn't take themselves seriously, didn't think they were god (hehe, there was a teacher who thought he was god and i took great pleasure in refusing to admit it!).



Interestingly enough, a lot of the teachers who had my respect were ones who would look at the rules and acknowledge that they didn't always apply. Like the teacher who let us snack in class (as long as it was healthy) because students don't work well with an empty stomach...not that I can think where that applies to mods, I'm just braintorming ways my respect has been earned...and that's all I can think of for now, but it's probably the general drift.

i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...


YakumoSILVER Member
veteran
1,237 posts
Location: Oxfordshire, United Kingdom


Posted:
 Written by :Firetom

Mods should be chosen by the Admins, only the Admins and the Admins alone. Public opinion has nothing to do with this topic. If they choose to have the audience de/select Mods then just as a courtesy, period.

Yes, but as I said if the admins want a successful and loved site/forum they will listen to their users. This forum was put up for communicating with customers, but also as a means for building what is one of the best forms of advertising you can possibly hope for, and at a low cost, a community of devout users.

(edit: nb. In one of my previous posts I said 'vote them out' after admins appoint. I didn't mean literally hold a vote, just respond to user feedback)



So community support of group in charge of the site is important, a current example of it going wrong would be ukhippy, I can no longer count the number of stories I've heard of people being banned for no apparent reason, there are people openly campaigning against it on youtube now, it would seem that site is beginning to eat itself to death though this may take a long time.

One thing I haven't previously specifically pointed out about the NYC issue is : A lot of people think people vanish from hop for long periods of time, or completely. With what happened with NYC we've seen that potentially some of them were also simply black-bagged and we simply never got to hear anything more about it. Quite likely none of them were, but it sure makes me uncomfortable and this is one of the other major reasons I decided to chip in on and subscribe to this thread.



 Written by :onewheeldave



A Mod is a good Mod when he is present and does his job, takes decisions/ actions that might even be highly unpopular - as happened here.

As said before, a healthy cross section of mods is important, but abuse of moderator powers is different to stringently enforcing the rules.



 Written by :onewheeldave

And, for me, that's it- whether they have the respect of the community isn't anywhere near as relevant as whether they're doing their job properly.



Presumably, if a mod has no respect, it would be because, in some way, they are not following points 1-4?



In that case, it would seem best to fault them on what it is they are specifically failing on?



The very last thing a mod should be aiming for, is winning admiration, respect or popularity- that should be irrelevant.

I believe you're wrong, as mods not having respect of/being liked by the community is what drives people AWAY from that community more so than if they simply disliked a user.

A user doesn't hold the shadow of censorship/banning over them.

Mods are like deputies, admins are sheriffs, if you're massively unhappy with the deputies and the sheriff's too busy to deal with you, or refuses to doubt his deputies, how would you feel?



HoP is very big already which gives it a pull in factor, but if in the beginning mods were present and not liked/respected irrespective of complying with your 4 listed points, the forum would have had a significantly harder time getting off the ground.



 Written by :Pele

if a mod has no respect, it would be because, in some way, they are not following points 1-4?

Respect is about far more than those few rules, and means more than simply recognizing authority.



You also do not *need* to be respected to be a good, or even excellent mod, teacher, policeman etc but it helps.It is however a massive disadvantage for yourself, those you work with and work for, if you are disliked.

Blinded by Hyperlights, please donate generously grin


Kusanaginewbie
23 posts
Location: Canada


Posted:
Being quite new around here, all I can offer are observations that are unrelated to anyone in particular.

Seems like a problem arises from the apparent dichotomy of this entity known as HoP. On one hand, it is a business. Businesses have formal obligations, bottom lines, liabilities, etc... and thus have to be run a certain way. On the other hand, it is a community. Communities are organic in that they are informal, flexible, growing, changing and like to cater to their members’ needs. However, from what is being discussed here, it seems like some want it run more like a business, some more like a community.

Of course, there will be a mix of both; but the ideal 50/50 ratio is very difficult, perhaps even impossible, to attain. Many forums have crashed and burned trying to figure out their ideal “ratio” (for lack of a better word). The secret to success, it seems, is to have the majority agree that your proportions of each are sound. For example, if you look at both extremes of the spectrum:

Business extreme example: As businesses have liabilities and can potentially be sued, any topic involving private matters of members will be kept strictly confidential. Moderators do not have to be visible or friendly, they are simply there to ensure proper functioning of the forums, as per previously established rules so that general discontent does not affect potential sales. Users cannot modify anything on the board because it opens the door to potential dissent (ie not all users will agree on one thing being moved to that place or the other) and thus may result in user discontent and thus potential loss of sales.

Community extreme example: Making money is not important, rules are not important. Coming together in celebrating poi and other objects is what matters. We do not need admin/mods because we know each other all so well that we self regulate in synergy. We all agree on everything and we care about one another and our community so much that banning is not required: a member who doesn’t agree with the community would self-exile for the greater good of the community and of him/herself.

Obviously, there is good and bad in both extremes. (And please guys, these are *extremes*, meant to do nothing more than to illustrate *g* )

Chances are, the apparent clash will not be resolved until the “ratio” has been determined, hopefully by general consensus. Once it is determined, then a plan of action can be implemented along the same lines. Otherwise, the same issues are likely to come up again and again.

I hope that I have expressed what I meant in a neutral way bc it is: I’m too new here to have an opinion one way or the other and I do not know the persons discussed above.

I just really like poi weavesmiley ( <-- is this the coolest smiley ever or what?) and being able to discuss it with a big bunch of potential new friends! biggrin

HTH some,

K.

Duct tape is like the Force: it has a light side, a dark side, and it hold the universe together.


PeleBRONZE Member
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA


Posted:
Just for clarification and so there are no miscommunications, Yakumo, those that are written as quotes from me are actually from One Wheeled Dave.

I also would like George, or Malcolm to step in here to clarify the job of an Admin now that it is being pulled into this.

On HoP, traditionally, Admins have the *same* power as mods, not more. The main difference is that they actually administer technical changes/advancements to the bb and in the case of HoP, two of them are the higher ranking positions in the HQ as well.

Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK


YakumoSILVER Member
veteran
1,237 posts
Location: Oxfordshire, United Kingdom


Posted:
 Written by :Pele

Just for clarification and so there are no miscommunications, Yakumo, those that are written as quotes from me are actually from One Wheeled Dave.

My apologies that was a complete oversight, I've corrected it, I hope you weren't too offended as you had said you agreed entirely with his comments.



In my posts I've been referring to things with their traditional roles, admins on forums/CMSs etc have considerably more power than mods which are specifically designed to let people less trusted or community users moderate user contributed content.

In many systems admins have unrestricted abilities (create/modify/delete pages, forums, users & permissions), in some there is a separate 'superadmin' or 'root' user for full access instead, but admins still have considerably more access than anything lower on the user account priorities. A mod is one up from 'user' and has basic correctional abilities, thread moving, soft delete, banning/infraction systems to stop trolling and spam, admins control everything else, 'users' are one up from guest, and often the only difference is having a reserved name and maybe stored preferences.



Just in case there's still any misunderstanding I've not been posting to belittle anything or anyone, merely wanted to offer my experience of well running very robust systems that have weathered far, far worse than I've ever heard of here, and know it was taken into consideration.

A good system practically runs itself.

Blinded by Hyperlights, please donate generously grin


UCOFSILVER Member
15,417 posts
Location: South Wales


Posted:
Thanks for the input Kusanagi. Its always useful to have a new persons observations that have no history or knowledge of the past of the board and community, and so should be totally impartial smile

Welcome to HOP by the way, and you are totally correct about the weavesmiley icon! Its awesome. hug

PeleBRONZE Member
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA


Posted:
No offense at all Yakumo, I just wanted to give credit where it is due. smile
Thanks! beerchug

Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK


spinningstarletSILVER Member
enthusiast
271 posts
Location: Bradford *rolls eyes*, United Kingdom


Posted:
I know i'm not really a particulary active member of this board, but i do post occasionally, and i do follow a lot of threads.

I'm not even reallysure how relavant this is but my suggestion would be to have mods, maybe more than one, maybe not, but for each mod/admin to have only one area of he board as their primary responsibility. ie, one (or more) mod(s) focused on discussion/chat/intros/technical etc. They have just as much power, and just as much input, and obvs if something huge does need to be sorted each mod has a different view that can be combined to an overall unbiased conclusion (not that i'm saying it is biased now smile)

toobs
x

YakumoSILVER Member
veteran
1,237 posts
Location: Oxfordshire, United Kingdom


Posted:
 Written by :Malcolm


 Written by :Pele


On HoP, traditionally, Admins have the *same* power as mods, not more. The main difference is that they actually administer technical changes/advancements to the bb and in the case of HoP, two of them are the higher ranking positions in the HQ as well.



Correct!



Wait what? are you saying only the highlighted part of that is correct? so someone has actually purposefully removed intentionally tiered power structures?

If so it does reveal the root of your current mod dilemma, taking so long to consider new ones, you can't trust anyone enough to give them that level of power.

Blinded by Hyperlights, please donate generously grin


PyrolificBRONZE Member
Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
3,289 posts
Location: Adelaide, South Australia


Posted:
 Written by :bluecat



HoP Posting Guidelines

Is it the Truth?

Is it Fair to all concerned?

Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?

Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?



ubblol



if all posts in this thread were to fulifill guideline no 3 we'd have a very short thread.



josh;

i already had an excellent PM conversation with George about it, but heres a public summary, with a few more thoughts, from me (i do kinda feel responsible for this, even though i did get my issues sorted out a while ago ubblol )



more consideration over why threads are banned/moved - less 'reaction modding';



letting people know why their threads have been banned/moved (this was the biggie for me). this to include major contributors to the thread if possible



moderators to remain moderate in their personal posting behaviour (the words *takes mod hat off* don't mean much, and intimidates people, unfortunately)



meg to be more respectful (i'm working on this one behind the scenes, i promise biggrin), cause she actually has great points when you get past the crap ubblol



and allow discussion of difficult topics - it was obvious people wanted to talk about NYC but repetition of 'discussion will not be tolerated' from mods was absolutely shocking and has made me seriously consider my own permanent removal from HOP frown fortunately the topic moved on to to 'what are the issues' and i came back from the brink.



I know you say that HOP is open in comparison to other boards you mod on, but all that statement makes me want to do is totally avoid these other boards. shrug



i hope this helps and doesn't just provoke more outrage.



frown





Hey Mog,



I wanted to address your points as from re-reading the last few pages of this thread again, you seem to raise points that can be addressed;



RE reaction modding;



I think this is a good point: mods should never knee jerk delete / move without a pointer. Perhaps we should flag certain threads / posts as 'under observation' or 'potentially breaking the rules'



letting people know when threads are moved;



I think this is supposed to be happening either by pointer PM or Email, however if you feel its not happening, then we need to address this. perhaps we need a 'moved to quarantine' pointer for threads mods feel need to be carefully considered but not deleted. This would reduce the angst perhaps for people when a thread gets moved to recycle (where the mods and admins can discuss it outof public view)



moderate mods;



I think this is mostly the case, this thread being a bit of an exception, and understandably so - several mods (perhaps all the mods??) being asked to stand down for various reasons including; not being respected enough, not posting enough/not being involved enough, not being moderate enough, etc etc can cause a bit of upset, and a human reaction.



RE discussion of difficult topics - I don't actually perceive this as being a big problem on HOP. the original NYC thread being moved to recycle by a mod and this thread being moved to retired by someone (not a mod) being current examples, but most of the time I dont think there is much censorship, and I would be aware of it because I can see the threads that go to recycle. Recycle is very much a boring trash can to go over, the occasional blatant product promotion, several threads deleted at the request of users, etc, etc. I understand that some people reading this thread seem to be unable to trust that *anyone* on the mod team is telling the truth, and short of making the recycle bin an open forum (thus defeating the purpose of its existence) I dont see how this can be achieved.



RE the other sites I'm on that are not as open as this;



hows this for an example of totalitarianism;



from an unnamed fluffy hippy forum someone got banned and had posts deleted because a mod 'thought he was a dickhead timewaster' . This, on a very friendly happy go lucky and open site.



Another site supporting people building PA cabinets banned a user for posting questions 'deliberately aimed at undermining the business that supports the site' Again, a friendly and fairly open community.



I could go on I guess, but its not neccessary. I'm not really sure what people want - do you want it so that no-one can get banned for anything?



On the matter of NYCs banning;



I think some things could have been done better - firstly, I think it was a mistake to allow the deletion of posts that form the body of evidence of the case for NYC's banning. If they still existed, it would be possible for anyone to go over them, and see the evidence that we based our decisions on.



in terms of improving the situation , I think it would be great (and yes this will need to be coded into the script that runs the forum, and I dont know how hard it is) if we could flag posts and responses to posts in such a way that we could then filter by warning / attention flag and bring up a concise representation of the activities of a user that need attention.



I also think that Yakumo's ideas about tracking mod activity is a good one.
EDITED_BY: Pyrolific (1210556682)

--
Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!


YakumoSILVER Member
veteran
1,237 posts
Location: Oxfordshire, United Kingdom


Posted:
I'm very glad to hear there is a recycle bin system, but is it mandatory or can mods permanently delete?

 Written by :Pyrolific

in terms of improving the situation , I think it would be great (and yes this will need to be coded into the script that runs the forum, and I dont know how hard it is) if we could flag posts and responses to posts in such a way that we could then filter by warning / attention flag and bring up a concise representation of the activities of a user that need attention.


Everything I've mentioned so far is achievable with plugins in other forums, or inbuilt, hence their common use, I'll read up more on ubb.threads options later, but version incompatibilities could be a problem on hop as if there's a fair hunk of custom hacks i could imagine it hasn't been upgraded in a while.
The fact that a post has been reported should be stored in the sql db already hopefully, rather than just firing off a message to the mod lounge. This is also useful as it's handy to flag a message with 'this post has been reported' so other users know where it stands, it's obvious from the content if it's been reported as people want it stickied as it's great, or want it removed/edited as it's awful.

A query to pull all posts from a user with the report flag set would then be trivial. Doing this as a proper ubb.threads plugin to withstand system upgrades less so, but an easy alternative is a mod-only locked page just for running that query.
This does seem a very good idea, but perhaps I haven't seen it implemented before as it doesn't present the other side of the user for evaluation?

Blinded by Hyperlights, please donate generously grin


FireTomStargazer
6,650 posts

Posted:
 Written by : Pyro

On the matter of NYCs banning;

I think some things could have been done better - firstly, I think it was a mistake to allow the deletion of posts that form the body of evidence of the case for NYC's banning. If they still existed, it would be possible for anyone to go over them, and see the evidence that we based our decisions on.



Dunno, personally I deleted (some of) my posts because they were off topic and because I wanted to say: "let's just forget it and move on." Personally (as already stated) I only reported him once again as he threatened (to report) me, just because I opposed his opinion months later (in a respectful way, well within the posting guidelines). He 'freaked'.

Is it really that some of the audience here has so much suspicion against the (common) decision to (temporarily) ban NYC that the presentation of evidence is necessary?

I really wonder what this is about?

It's been explained many times and I do believe it, when George, the mods and Malcolm say that the decision to ban (a member that has contributed to the community so much in all these years like) NYC "indeed has been a tough one". Don't you? (no not you, Pyro... excuse to put this into this context.)

This thread seems to revolve around itself only for the sake of itself and to perpetuate a drama - this even though the reasons have been explained a few times already, everybody has stated that he mourns NYC as a member, but nobody really believes it... ???

With all my due respect for your thread OWD: Personally I do/did not enjoy becoming a target - be it from NYC or an other member. Personally I do believe that anyone would enjoy 'protection' by the Mods if s/he's a target of bullying or repeated targeting - regardless whether the dude is an oldtimer or a noob.

Has the staff of HoP given you (the members) so many reasons to be distrustful of their decisions? Or given you reasons to believe that they do not care about the community? Or put the interests of a single member over that of the entire community?

IMHO the staff of HoP values each and every member - even more if s/he has contributed to the community for many years. If NYC 'has moved on' (from HoP) after his ban and does not intend to come back, even though the door is open - why (as a community) don't we?

shrug

the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink


onewheeldaveGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom


Posted:
 Written by :FireTom


Is it really that some of the audience here has so much suspicion against the (common) decision to (temporarily) ban NYC that the presentation of evidence is necessary?




Yes.

I think it's obvious that some here do feel that way.

I wouldn't go so far as to say evidence is necessary, but it would be desirable.

If people witnessed the alleged abuses, then there would be no doubt in anyones mind- if they don't witness any of it, then there will be doubt.

As as been explained, there are reasons why much of what occurred will not be made public, but, as Pyro says-


 Written by :Pyrolific



I think some things could have been done better - firstly, I think it was a mistake to allow the deletion of posts that form the body of evidence of the case for NYC's banning. If they still existed, it would be possible for anyone to go over them, and see the evidence that we based our decisions on.



"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


PyrolificBRONZE Member
Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
3,289 posts
Location: Adelaide, South Australia


Posted:
 Written by :onewheeldave



If people witnessed the alleged abuses, then there would be no doubt in anyones mind- if they don't witness any of it, then there will be doubt.




which makes me wonder why some people attack HOP administration so harshly (eg cant trust any current mod or admin to tell the truth-harsh), when they obviously weren't 'involved' enough with the goings on on the board to even be aware of the flames and counter flames going on over long periods of time. Now, if they were aware of them at the time, they would, *at the very least* realise that the NYC thing certainly wasn't the 'cut n dried' example of abuse of power that it's certainly being made out to be.

Sure, if the posts were frozen and were on view, even the most untrusting person would have to admit that there was a tough call to make, and I'm fairly sure they would be able to see who was the more aggressive - especially at the end when the final decision (after many warnings) was made. I'm just amazed that people are using this as an example...with so little evidence to back their arguments.

So - to summarise,

things we can do better in the future (without potentially extensive modifications of code)

- more use of pointers when threads are moved (and potentially removing the option for users to move threads, due to no public accountability)
- change the tag line of banned users to banned
- freeze all that users posts so that all can see (of course if involved in a conversation, there is nothing to stop the other user modifying their posts afterwards to twist the knife of blame further into the banned and defenseless user)

thats it?

Yakumo - As much as I think many of your suggestions sound great, I think you need to make suggestions that can be carried out with our system in our context. If you can find modules that can be added to help, or *easy* hacks that are unlikely to break any of the other functionality, then such suggestions would be most gratefully received.

--
Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!


onewheeldaveGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom


Posted:
 Written by :Pyrolific


 Written by :onewheeldave



If people witnessed the alleged abuses, then there would be no doubt in anyones mind- if they don't witness any of it, then there will be doubt.




which makes me wonder why some people attack HOP administration so harshly (eg cant trust any current mod or admin to tell the truth-harsh), when they obviously weren't 'involved' enough with the goings on on the board to even be aware of the flames and counter flames going on over long periods of time. Now, if they were aware of them at the time, they would, *at the very least* realise that the NYC thing certainly wasn't the 'cut n dried' example of abuse of power that it's certainly being made out to be.

Sure, if the posts were frozen and were on view, even the most untrusting person would have to admit that there was a tough call to make, and I'm fairly sure they would be able to see who was the more aggressive - especially at the end when the final decision (after many warnings) was made. I'm just amazed that people are using this as an example...with so little evidence to back their arguments.





Let's be clear on the fact that those who could be said to be 'attacking HOP admin' are very much in the minority- most involved in the various issues (around NYCs banning and the (related but seperate) ones to do with thread lockings/deletions) are not attacking HOP admin.

I'm certainly under the impression that, despite starting this thread and having expressed dissatisfaction with some of the thread lockings/deletions, i'm in no way 'attacking' HOP admin (correct me if I'm under the wrong impression on that).

I really do think that there is evidence of a general 'over-sensitivity' on the part of some mods/admins- that they are seeing far more 'attacking' than is actually the case.

As for why some may not have been 'involved enough' with the flames and counter-flames- maybe they weren't actually reading the threads in question cos they were on subjects they weren't interested in- maybe it took place during a time when they weren't particularly active.

That doesn't mean they weren't reading them cos they weren't interested in NYC, or the issues occuring.

I'm not really sure what point you're actually making there.





 Written by : Pyrolific


 Written by : onewheeldave



If people witnessed the alleged abuses, then there would be no doubt in anyones mind- if they don't witness any of it, then there will be doubt.





Sure, if the posts were frozen and were on view, even the most untrusting person would have to admit that there was a tough call to make, and I'm fairly sure they would be able to see who was the more aggressive - especially at the end when the final decision (after many warnings) was made. I'm just amazed that people are using this as an example...with so little evidence to back their arguments.





that's just the thing that some are finding a little presumptious- you're fairly sure that we would see who was the more aggressive.

Fact is, I (or others), may read the exact same posts and have a different view on who was the more aggressive.

Then again, I might not, i might be in complete aggreement with your assessment, but, in the absence of those posts, we'll never know.

What I do know though, is that I've witnessed past bannings of members where, it was clear to me, that the behaviour was not purely down to the individual who ultimately was banned- I've seen clear cases where that individual was goaded and provoked by several others and, that that seemed to be missed entirely by mods.

So, because of that, I'm in favour of evidence being left, so everyone can see it- that eliminates the need for 'trust'.



 Written by :



So - to summarise,

things we can do better in the future (without potentially extensive modifications of code)

- more use of pointers when threads are moved (and potentially removing the option for users to move threads, due to no public accountability)
- change the tag line of banned users to banned
- freeze all that users posts so that all can see (of course if involved in a conversation, there is nothing to stop the other user modifying their posts afterwards to twist the knife of blame further into the banned and defenseless user)

thats it?





And, I would add, as my opinion on this-

*a commitment to not moving, locking or deleting threads, except as the very last resort

if, in a thread, an individual is offensive or flaming, IMO, it is that individual who should be dealt with, the practice of 'locking' threads which seems very common on other boards, has always struck me as bad.

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


onewheeldaveGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom


Posted:
 Written by :Pyrolific


Now, if they were aware of them at the time, they would, *at the very least* realise that the NYC thing certainly wasn't the 'cut n dried' example of abuse of power that it's certainly being made out to be.




I don't think that it's being made out to be a 'cut'n'dried abuse of power'.

The main point being made is that most of us have no idea of whether it was a good call, or a bad call, cos virtually all evidence was, for some reason, removed.

It could well be, if most of the relevant posts had not been removed, that most of us would read them and agree that NYC was indeed out-of-order and that he should have been banned.

But, the posts have been deleted.

And then, of course, a succession of other threads asking questions were also moved/deleted, which onlt served to increase curiousity and, in some, give rise to 'conspiracy' concerns.

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


PyrolificBRONZE Member
Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
3,289 posts
Location: Adelaide, South Australia


Posted:
OWD - I think we agree on the posts being deleted thing. I'm not sure who did that, whether it was done at the request of NYC or as a admin 'cleanup' function, but I think you can see, that we are both agreeing that that is a valid point.

Theres no conspiracy, just a bunch of people trying to do their best in an unpleasant situation to look after the dignity and privacy of those involved. Theres always going to be a clash between freedom of information and right to privacy - and its a pretty tough line to draw, especially as we hardly ever have to do it.

Again, I'd like to reaffirm my commitment to being a good mod, and call for suggestions from the user group of policies and guidelines for making these decisions. Thankyou OWD, for setting out yours so clearly, your points are logical. I've acknowledged other peoples contributions already - and I was wondering if anyone else would like to comment at this point?

--
Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!


YakumoSILVER Member
veteran
1,237 posts
Location: Oxfordshire, United Kingdom


Posted:
 Written by :Pyrolific



Yakumo - As much as I think many of your suggestions sound great, I think you need to make suggestions that can be carried out with our system in our context. If you can find

modules that can be added to help, or *easy* hacks that are unlikely to break any of the other functionality, then such suggestions would be most gratefully received.







As I much as I would dearly love to give advice fully in context, that is riddled with obstacles, I had said -



 Written by :Yakumo

I was going to install ubb.threads on my apache dev box to see what it can do, and what plugins would be worth suggesting, but I don't know what version hop runs,

and it's a commercial only product





But I have spent a good 4 or 5 hours now looking into it as far as I can :



tbh it's not a nice system to manage imo, but it is lightweight, it could be considerably more functional without jeopardizing that at all though.



I absolutely would not consider it for managing any community with more than a (low) few hundred members myself, I think it's entire management system is inadequate, it's user support/3rd party mod scene is in direct relation to this, very small. Rather than modifying it to be better suited, people are just using better systems. Both free (SMF, phpBB) and commercial systems (vbulletin) from the last 3 or 4 years outclass it.



I actually spent a couple of hours doing a comparison with SMF, vbulletin (my favourite free and commercial forum systems) but have removed that write up from here to keep the post size down from astronomical (HoP may have no interest in converting, but it's wise to know what is out there)



UBB has strictly 2 levels of elevated users (mod or admin), with no room for customization on that.



Mods can (Y/N shows default): Moderate Forums Y, Lock Topics Y , Move Topics Y, Delete Posts Y (inc. whole topics), Stick Topics Y, Approve Posts Y, Edit Posts Y, Edit Users N.



Mods have no control over any other function on the board available to admins (display options, forum creation, portal options, automated task settings) Even with Edit Users permission they cannot change a users level, only groups.



The ONLY thing that happens when you report a post is it emails the mods (and the administrators if they have specifically opted IN to moderator events). This makes moderator collaboration harder, and wastes time looking into issues that may have already been resolved (suggested plugin available for v7 bellow)



UBB Threads has no moderator logs, only admin actions are logged. I found this very surprising, this single fact alone makes me consider this system unusable for sites with >500 users as you need a collection of mods at that point. Personally I wouldn't hire someone to mod a site for my business without accountability, let alone raise a user to do it for free. Seperate Mod logs aren't entirely necessary if there is a report are logged/closed off (see 7.2 Custom moderator-notify handler), and stealth edits are disabled.

There are no plugins to add mod action logging that I can find, which is not surprising as it would require editing the code for every mod action.



As I do not know what version of UBB Threads hop is running on (though versions prior to 6 were not called 'ubb threads') I've gone through plugins for the latest version, and hope either HoP can be upgraded, or the plugin fairly easily backported. These are, in no particular order, a bunch of plugins that would improve moderation, or seem otherwise useful.

This is the absolute limit of what I can do without buying UBB Threads, or elevated HoP access, there isn't any downloadable version I could test the plugin/mod compatibility or functionality with.

7.2 Custom moderator-notify handler (basically right concept, if reports can't start conversations,then should be used to learn how to hook into reports, and custom code post generation in a hidden forum)
[7.x] Force Post Edited Display Disables stealth edits. It's fine to put the reason in as ".", but at least people then know their posts are being edited.
[7.1.1] - Move thread PMs topic starter/poster
[7.2] PM Export Mailer lets users email their PM's to themselves for backup.
Added tabs for admins editing members
[7.x] Admin IP Information quick display of IP info to admins.
[7.x] UBB Spoiler Tags nice mod for users.
Topic Quick Mod Lets you move a single post out of a thread, posts that were replies to that one will be re-assigned as replies to it's parent.
Private Moderation makes specific users require mod approval for any post, alternative to a ban.

For UBB Threads 6.x

Finished-[6.5] Move thread will PM topic starter
Finished-[6.5-6.5.1] Merge Threads 2.1
Beta-[6.4] Notify Mod in PM 1.0 Not needed if reports go to a forum, but very useful instead of email if mods don't check mail often.
Finished-[6.3-6.4] Move thread will PM topic starter
Finished-[6.3-6.4] Show Banned 1.0
Finished-[6.2-6.3-6.4-6.5] Allow Visited Pages To Be Cached By Browser could help reduce site bandwidth.



The only user reduction that can be done out of the box, short of temp or perm banning, is it is possible to remove a users ability to send or receive PM's.



Auto ban labels:

There are no mods I've found to do this for UBB, but I've been able to look at the database of the hosted demo from the forums 'database tools'

Wherever the forum pulls out userdata from the database it will be including the USER_IS_BANNED flag, from the USERS table, it is also pulling USER_CUSTOM_TITLE from the USER_PROFILE table. it would be trivial to find where it is doing something akin to '$DisplayUserTitle=USER_CUSTOM_TITLE'

and change it to:

if ($user["USER_IS_BANNED"]==1) { $DisplayUserTitle="banned" else "$DisplayUserTitle=$user["USER_CUSTOM_TITLE"]};

this is all psudocode as I have no access to the UBB php files.

Getting it to have a seperate one for temp bans is slightly less trivial as you then would also have to open up the BANNED_USERS table, if BAN_EXPIRATION != 0 then it's a temp ban. it's potentially not worth the extra DB hit for semantics.



Offtopic: Other optimization Depending on what HoP's server, there are various cache options that could help reduce server load if not implemented already, xcache, APC, eAccelerator, Turck MMCache, Memcached (not all together smile ) also apache and mysql cache options.

Blinded by Hyperlights, please donate generously grin


AdeSILVER Member
Are we there yet?
1,897 posts
Location: australia


Posted:
 Written by :Pyrolific



- change the tag line of banned users to banned




I can't support this (even though I cheekily suggested it in my 'sarcastic' post).

I'd rather see the tag line changed to 'account inactive'. THe 'banned' tag doesn't seem entirely fair to people, and I really think would get more people talking about the banning rather than getting on with talking about fun fire things...

'account inactive' is a friendlier way to alert people to the fact htat poster isn't here any more.

shrug

BirgitBRONZE Member
had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
4,145 posts
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)


Posted:
What Ade says. I've suggested that before somewhere a few pages back. Of course it won't work if people who have willingly left aren't on the same "account inactive" status. "Banned", especially if it's temporary, will not do the banned user any favours.

"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half


YakumoSILVER Member
veteran
1,237 posts
Location: Oxfordshire, United Kingdom


Posted:
As has been said earlier, if a user is banned, they are banned, it is an intentional action that requires mod/admin action, be it a temporary or permanent ban. If a mod is concerned about appearances that much, they have to consider not banning them in the first place.



Putting 'account inactive' for a banned user is semantics to the point of dishonesty frankly.

Blinded by Hyperlights, please donate generously grin


AdeSILVER Member
Are we there yet?
1,897 posts
Location: australia


Posted:
I'm not suggesting that the mods care about appearances, I'm suggesting we treat people with a bit of dignity when they are banned.

Of course, we could always tar and feather them in publc instead umm

As I understand it, if someone is banned, then that banning can be overturned at some future point. I don't see how it can be dishonest to indicate that at that time, the account is inactive.


Id the ban is overturned, the account becomes active again.

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