Forums > Social Discussion > vegans starve baby
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517 posts
Location: Sheffield, England
517 posts
Location: Sheffield, England
Posted:
Sorry I've not been around recently, I've moved house and had all sorts of things going on. To those that have tried to contact me, I apologize for not responding yet.
Anyway, I saw this story and I'm interested in your opinions on the punishment dealt to this couple. Haven't got time to chat, but I'll check back to see your thoughts.
The way I see it is that a life punishment is too harsh despite the terrible consequences their actions, as they are already serving the bona fide life sentence of having lost their baby. A token jail sentence of maybe a year or two would be enough imo (maybe along with some lessons), and anything more than that would be cruel and unnecessary.
Here's the story:
https://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18574603/
Quote:
ATLANTA - A vegan couple were sentenced Wednesday to life in prison for the death of their malnourished 6-week-old baby boy, who was fed a diet largely consisting of soy milk and apple juice.
Superior Court Judge L.A. McConnell imposed the mandatory sentences on Jade Sanders, 27, and Lamont Thomas, 31. Their son, Crown Shakur, weighed just 3 1/2 pounds when he died of starvation on April 25, 2004.
The couple were found guilty May 2 of malice murder, felony murder, involuntary manslaughter and cruelty to children. A jury deliberated about seven hours before returning the guilty verdicts.
Defense lawyers said the first-time parents did the best they could while adhering to the lifestyle of vegans, who typically use no animal products. They said Sanders and Thomas did not realize the baby, who was born at home, was in danger until minutes before he died.
But prosecutors said the couple intentionally neglected their child and refused to take him to the doctor even as the baby’s body wasted away.
“No matter how many times they want to say, ‘We’re vegans, we’re vegetarians,’ that’s not the issue in this case,” said prosecutor Chuck Boring. “The child died because he was not fed. Period.”
Although the life sentences were automatic, Sanders and Thomas begged for leniency before sentencing. Sanders urged the judge to look past his “perception” of the couple.
“I loved my son — and I did not starve him,” she said.
When the judge told the defendants they could ask for a new trial, Thomas hung his head low.
“I’m dying every day in there,” he said, “and that could take three years.”
Sorry I've not been around recently, I've moved house and had all sorts of things going on. To those that have tried to contact me, I apologize for not responding yet.
Anyway, I saw this story and I'm interested in your opinions on the punishment dealt to this couple. Haven't got time to chat, but I'll check back to see your thoughts.
The way I see it is that a life punishment is too harsh despite the terrible consequences their actions, as they are already serving the bona fide life sentence of having lost their baby. A token jail sentence of maybe a year or two would be enough imo (maybe along with some lessons), and anything more than that would be cruel and unnecessary.
Here's the story:
https://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18574603/
Quote:
ATLANTA - A vegan couple were sentenced Wednesday to life in prison for the death of their malnourished 6-week-old baby boy, who was fed a diet largely consisting of soy milk and apple juice.
Superior Court Judge L.A. McConnell imposed the mandatory sentences on Jade Sanders, 27, and Lamont Thomas, 31. Their son, Crown Shakur, weighed just 3 1/2 pounds when he died of starvation on April 25, 2004.
The couple were found guilty May 2 of malice murder, felony murder, involuntary manslaughter and cruelty to children. A jury deliberated about seven hours before returning the guilty verdicts.
Defense lawyers said the first-time parents did the best they could while adhering to the lifestyle of vegans, who typically use no animal products. They said Sanders and Thomas did not realize the baby, who was born at home, was in danger until minutes before he died.
But prosecutors said the couple intentionally neglected their child and refused to take him to the doctor even as the baby’s body wasted away.
“No matter how many times they want to say, ‘We’re vegans, we’re vegetarians,’ that’s not the issue in this case,” said prosecutor Chuck Boring. “The child died because he was not fed. Period.”
Although the life sentences were automatic, Sanders and Thomas begged for leniency before sentencing. Sanders urged the judge to look past his “perception” of the couple.
“I loved my son — and I did not starve him,” she said.
When the judge told the defendants they could ask for a new trial, Thomas hung his head low.
“I’m dying every day in there,” he said, “and that could take three years.”
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old hand
898 posts
Location: Binstead, Isle of Wight
898 posts
Location: Binstead, Isle of Wight
Posted:
Why couldn't the mother breastfeed? I'm sure that's ok for vegans as they're not taking the milk of animals!
Put them in prison for six weeks and give them only soy milk and apple juice.
Why couldn't the mother breastfeed? I'm sure that's ok for vegans as they're not taking the milk of animals!
Put them in prison for six weeks and give them only soy milk and apple juice.
Ask a question and be a fool for a minute...don't ask and be a fool your whole life.
BRONZE Member
HoP mage and keeper of the fireballs
1,965 posts
Location: Palmerston North, New Zealand
HoP mage and keeper of the fireballs
1,965 posts
Location: Palmerston North, New Zealand
Posted:
Having been a butcher myself I am quite anti to the whole vegan/vegitarian idea.
That said and done i am assuming that the parents where healthy and i have to ask why the mother wasn't breast feeding since it is common knowladge that brest milk is the best food for a child until they have been started on solids.
Why do these damned vegan types (sorry thats the butcher in me speaking) force their lifestyle choices onto their children even tho it goes against common medical advice. Futher more newborns require constant feeding and attention so surely they would have known that something was wrong long before "the last minute".
Lock them up and let them out in five years time coz even tho they are stupid (to the point of criminal neglegenc) even i can see that they didn't mean to kill the child and as such don't deserve a Life sentance but they certainly need to be taught a strong lesson in responsibility.
Anyhow enough ranting from me.
Having been a butcher myself I am quite anti to the whole vegan/vegitarian idea.
That said and done i am assuming that the parents where healthy and i have to ask why the mother wasn't breast feeding since it is common knowladge that brest milk is the best food for a child until they have been started on solids.
Why do these damned vegan types (sorry thats the butcher in me speaking) force their lifestyle choices onto their children even tho it goes against common medical advice. Futher more newborns require constant feeding and attention so surely they would have known that something was wrong long before "the last minute".
Lock them up and let them out in five years time coz even tho they are stupid (to the point of criminal neglegenc) even i can see that they didn't mean to kill the child and as such don't deserve a Life sentance but they certainly need to be taught a strong lesson in responsibility.
Anyhow enough ranting from me.
May my balls of fire set your balls on fire 
SILVER Member
UnNatural Scientist - Currently working on a Breville-legged monkey
757 posts
Location: Bath Uni or Shrewsbury, UK
UnNatural Scientist - Currently working on a Breville-legged monkey
757 posts
Location: Bath Uni or Shrewsbury, UK
Posted:
From what I've read and heard (true, ancedotal evidence counts for nothing) this runs deeper than the baby just being given the wrong food. The judge apparently said that the baby simply wasn't being fed, nevermind that when it was fed it was given the wrong food. Secondly, they took the baby to see a doctor once. After it had died.
From what I've read and heard (true, ancedotal evidence counts for nothing) this runs deeper than the baby just being given the wrong food. The judge apparently said that the baby simply wasn't being fed, nevermind that when it was fed it was given the wrong food. Secondly, they took the baby to see a doctor once. After it had died.
Give me a lever long enough and a place to stand and I can beat the world into submission.
SILVER Member
100 characters max...
2,996 posts
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
100 characters max...
2,996 posts
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Posted:
Whilst I do believe that there are certain nutrients that babies get from dairy foods that are hard to substitute for, I know it must be possible to do a better job of feeding a baby on a vegan diet. I am sure there are lots of babies with dairy allergies who are perfectly healthy, and there is far more variation on vegetarian food than soy milk and apple juice.
Without having read more on it, I am inclined to believe Domino. It doesn't really make sense that the only factor in this could be the vegan diet. Most parents would make an effort to make their children's diets work even within the parameters of their beliefs. And they certainly would notice signs of malnutrition far earlier.
Whilst I do believe that there are certain nutrients that babies get from dairy foods that are hard to substitute for, I know it must be possible to do a better job of feeding a baby on a vegan diet. I am sure there are lots of babies with dairy allergies who are perfectly healthy, and there is far more variation on vegetarian food than soy milk and apple juice.
Without having read more on it, I am inclined to believe Domino. It doesn't really make sense that the only factor in this could be the vegan diet. Most parents would make an effort to make their children's diets work even within the parameters of their beliefs. And they certainly would notice signs of malnutrition far earlier.
It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.
What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...
BRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
5,814 posts
Location: Perth, Australia
Carpal \'Tunnel
5,814 posts
Location: Perth, Australia
Posted:
Its sad they didnt notice thier child wasting away and becoming listless. It would have cried loudly and continuously before it became too ill to do so. Im sure there is more to the story than we are hearing.
Who around them didnt notice the baby becoming thin?
Our families would have dragged us to the doctors with the baby. Here we also have child nurses that hunt you down to make sure the baby is doing ok.
Very tragic case. Like the Japanese couple who left their child in a baggage carrier and it died while they gambled.
Its sad they didnt notice thier child wasting away and becoming listless. It would have cried loudly and continuously before it became too ill to do so. Im sure there is more to the story than we are hearing.
Who around them didnt notice the baby becoming thin?
Our families would have dragged us to the doctors with the baby. Here we also have child nurses that hunt you down to make sure the baby is doing ok.
Very tragic case. Like the Japanese couple who left their child in a baggage carrier and it died while they gambled.
Is it the Truth?
Is it Fair to all concerned?
Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?
Im in a lonely battle with the world with a fish to match the chip on my shoulder. Gnu in Binnu in a cnu
SILVER Member
what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
4,030 posts
Location: Bali, Australia
what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
4,030 posts
Location: Bali, Australia
Posted:
When I was a young hippie I knew of two similar cases to this. One couple put their (already born with brain damage) child on an 'air diet' to supplement the totally inadequate milk of a woman who was eating nothing but brown rice.
There are lots of ways to be cruel/ignorant or negligent to babies. Dumb vegans add a few more.
When I was a young hippie I knew of two similar cases to this. One couple put their (already born with brain damage) child on an 'air diet' to supplement the totally inadequate milk of a woman who was eating nothing but brown rice.
There are lots of ways to be cruel/ignorant or negligent to babies. Dumb vegans add a few more.
.....Can't juggle balls but I sure as hell can juggle details....
SILVER Member
UnNatural Scientist - Currently working on a Breville-legged monkey
757 posts
Location: Bath Uni or Shrewsbury, UK
UnNatural Scientist - Currently working on a Breville-legged monkey
757 posts
Location: Bath Uni or Shrewsbury, UK
Posted:
30 seconds googling "vegan baby formula" chucks up a fair bit to support this, and all the sites I looked at started with the Breast Is Best line.
Written by: Rozi
Whilst I do believe that there are certain nutrients that babies get from dairy foods that are hard to substitute for, I know it must be possible to do a better job of feeding a baby on a vegan diet. I am sure there are lots of babies with dairy allergies who are perfectly healthy, and there is far more variation on vegetarian food than soy milk and apple juice.
30 seconds googling "vegan baby formula" chucks up a fair bit to support this, and all the sites I looked at started with the Breast Is Best line.
Give me a lever long enough and a place to stand and I can beat the world into submission.
BRONZE Member
Lambretta Fanatic
4,997 posts
Location: United Kingdom
Lambretta Fanatic
4,997 posts
Location: United Kingdom
Posted:
Almost 2 years I have been waiting for a response from messages etc...
So to the topic...
Why the hell would you be giving a 6 week old baby Soy Milk.... or any thing other than breast milk!!! and if the baby like most are after being released from hospital are monitored by doctors etcetera than surely a malnourished baby would have been admitted immediately.
I'm interested to know what the birth weight actually was, 3lbs at death, so if was born a healthy 7lbs that's a 4lbs loss... that's a lot in 6 weeks.
My son was born 2lbs 6oz due to his very sick mother and her now life long illness... So I know what it is like to deal with overly small children.... and to me there is a hell of a lot more to this story.
Written by: Jo
To those that have tried to contact me, I apologize for not responding yet.
Almost 2 years I have been waiting for a response from messages etc...
So to the topic...
Why the hell would you be giving a 6 week old baby Soy Milk.... or any thing other than breast milk!!! and if the baby like most are after being released from hospital are monitored by doctors etcetera than surely a malnourished baby would have been admitted immediately.
I'm interested to know what the birth weight actually was, 3lbs at death, so if was born a healthy 7lbs that's a 4lbs loss... that's a lot in 6 weeks.
My son was born 2lbs 6oz due to his very sick mother and her now life long illness... So I know what it is like to deal with overly small children.... and to me there is a hell of a lot more to this story.
SILVER Member
veteran
1,228 posts
Location: on the wrong planet, United Kingdom
veteran
1,228 posts
Location: on the wrong planet, United Kingdom
Posted:
Vegan has it's unhealthy junk foods as much as any other diet, and probably the biggest ones are soy products.
Soy beans contain a lot of protein, but unlike the more expensive nuts and seeds that should be a vegan's source of protein, they contain harmful chemicals too.
Vegan has it's unhealthy junk foods as much as any other diet, and probably the biggest ones are soy products.
Soy beans contain a lot of protein, but unlike the more expensive nuts and seeds that should be a vegan's source of protein, they contain harmful chemicals too.
Written by: Nourishing Traditions
Analysis of ancient Chinese texts reveals that the soy bean was originally cultivated for its nitrogen-fixing qualities and not as a food source. This is because soy beans contain potent enzyme inhibitors that cause intestinal problems, cancer and growth retardation. Soy is also high in phytic acid, which blocks the absorption of essential mineral, such as iron, calcium, magnesium and zinc.
It was during the Chou Dynasty (1134-246 BC) that soy beans were first designated as the fifth sacred grain, along with barley, wheat, millet and rice, as the Chinese had learned to ferment soy beans to make them edible. Fermentation of cooked beans to make soy sauce, miso, natto and tempeh removes not only enzyme inhibitors but phytates as well. The process of precipitation to make tofu and bean curd removes a portion of the enzyme ihibitors but only small amounts of the phytates.
Miso is thus superior to tofu from a nutritional point of view. It is a salty paste - smooth or chunky - with a meat like flavour. It is used as a seasoning and as a dietary staple in the preparation of miso soup in Japanese homes. It is rich in omega-3 fatty acids and has a complete protein profile because it is made with grains as well as soy beans.
For optimal nutritional benefit, miso and tofu should be combined with fish stock [po. fish stock contains high levels of minerals, that make up for some of the effects of phytates in tofu]. In the Orient, these products are consumed in small amounts as nourishing condiments-not as substitutes for animal foods.
Various phytoestrogens, such as genistein, diadzen and isoflavones, which occur in high quantities in modern cultivars of soybeans, are currently promoted as panaceas for heart disease, cancer and osteoporosis. Analysis shows that they are goitrogens - substances that depress thyroid function.
You aren't thinking or really existing unless you're willing to risk even your own sanity in the judgment of your existence.
Green peppers, lime pickle and whole-grain mustard = best sandwich filling.
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
I don't think the punishment was harsh enough. Maybe it's because I'm a pediatrician, but any parent would be able to see that their child was wasting to death.
You have a right to your religious and ethical beliefs, but you do NOT have the right to injure an innocent child, incapable of defending himself or offering an opinion, to satisfy those beliefs.
It's no different than parents who refuse to take their febrile and lethargic infant to the doctor because they don't believe in medical care for whatever reason. And it's no different than parents who chain their kids to beds for years and feed them 1500 calories a day because the Bible says "Spare the rod and spoil the child."
They killed a baby. It's not that difficult to take care of a newborn. Oh yeah, it's a hell of a lot of work, but it's not difficult. 15-year-olds do it reasonably well. I even have some parents with borderline mental retardation in my clinic who manage to do it (albeit with some extra guidance and visits every 2 weeks). The basics come naturally.
And this BS about not knowing until "minutes before the baby died..." sorry, the signs of malnourishment and dehydration come days to weeks in advance. And it doesn't take a doctor to see those signs, either.
Also, a baby should have a doctor's visit at 2 weeks of age, and another at 2 months (at a minimum). This baby had zero.
I don't think the punishment was harsh enough. Maybe it's because I'm a pediatrician, but any parent would be able to see that their child was wasting to death.
You have a right to your religious and ethical beliefs, but you do NOT have the right to injure an innocent child, incapable of defending himself or offering an opinion, to satisfy those beliefs.
It's no different than parents who refuse to take their febrile and lethargic infant to the doctor because they don't believe in medical care for whatever reason. And it's no different than parents who chain their kids to beds for years and feed them 1500 calories a day because the Bible says "Spare the rod and spoil the child."
They killed a baby. It's not that difficult to take care of a newborn. Oh yeah, it's a hell of a lot of work, but it's not difficult. 15-year-olds do it reasonably well. I even have some parents with borderline mental retardation in my clinic who manage to do it (albeit with some extra guidance and visits every 2 weeks). The basics come naturally.
And this BS about not knowing until "minutes before the baby died..." sorry, the signs of malnourishment and dehydration come days to weeks in advance. And it doesn't take a doctor to see those signs, either.
Also, a baby should have a doctor's visit at 2 weeks of age, and another at 2 months (at a minimum). This baby had zero.
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
Of course there is.
First and foremost there is BREASTMILK. Even babies with milk protein allergy can tolerate breastmilk. Sometimes the mother has to avoid dairy because somehow the milk proteins make it into the breastmilk (it mystifies modern medicine how an intact protein crosses not one, but two mucosal layers, but that's beside the point). But most babies, including the milk protein allergic ones, can tolerate human breastmilk.
Failing that, or in the case of a contraindication to breastfeeding (maternal HIV, chemotherapy, active TB, HTLV-3 infection being the only four absolute contraindications) there are soy-based and hydrolyzed soy protein infant formulas that provide perfectly adequate nutrition for a baby (although not as good as breastmilk).
Did I mention that breastfeeding is really the way to go for almost any baby?
Breastfeeding, really...it's free, it's good for them, and they tend not to get cavities before age 3....
...not to mention fewer hospitalizations...
...and higher IQ's...
...and less obesity...
...and more optimal weight gain...
...really, breastfeeding's great!
And I never met a vegan who was opposed to breastfeeding.
Written by: Rozi
Whilst I do believe that there are certain nutrients that babies get from dairy foods that are hard to substitute for, I know it must be possible to do a better job of feeding a baby on a vegan diet. I am sure there are lots of babies with dairy allergies who are perfectly healthy, and there is far more variation on vegetarian food than soy milk and apple juice.
Of course there is.
First and foremost there is BREASTMILK. Even babies with milk protein allergy can tolerate breastmilk. Sometimes the mother has to avoid dairy because somehow the milk proteins make it into the breastmilk (it mystifies modern medicine how an intact protein crosses not one, but two mucosal layers, but that's beside the point). But most babies, including the milk protein allergic ones, can tolerate human breastmilk.
Failing that, or in the case of a contraindication to breastfeeding (maternal HIV, chemotherapy, active TB, HTLV-3 infection being the only four absolute contraindications) there are soy-based and hydrolyzed soy protein infant formulas that provide perfectly adequate nutrition for a baby (although not as good as breastmilk).
Did I mention that breastfeeding is really the way to go for almost any baby?
Breastfeeding, really...it's free, it's good for them, and they tend not to get cavities before age 3....
...not to mention fewer hospitalizations...
...and higher IQ's...
...and less obesity...
...and more optimal weight gain...
...really, breastfeeding's great!
And I never met a vegan who was opposed to breastfeeding.
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
One other thing (as long as I'm dominating the whole thread...
), I am actually opposed to giving kids milk. And that's my formal opinion as a pediatrician. Milk has a lot of fat, binds iron in the digestive tract, and doesn't have enough vitamin D to make it worth it.
As a maximum, the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) recommends no more than 3 8oz servings of milk a day for any child of any age. I recommend no more than 2 8oz servings to my patients. However, many families give none. Instead they give yogurt, cheese, or sometimes even non-dairy sources of calcium (which is the important thing in milk, easily replaced with alternative sources).
And while we're at it, juice is pure sugar with a hint of vitamins. There are 28g of simple sugars in an 8oz serving of apple juice (at least the apple juice we have in our emergency room) while there are 27g in an 8oz serving of Coca-Cola. That's because it takes about one apple to make 1 oz of apple juice, so there are the equivalent of eight apples worth of sugar (but not vitamins, minerals, or fiber) in 8 oz of apple juice. Eat your fruit. Eat lots of it! Just don't drink it.
Children should only have juice as a rare special treat (give it to them as often as you would give them soda-pop). Other than that...water. Get them in a water habit and they'll have one healthy habit down for life.
One other thing (as long as I'm dominating the whole thread...
), I am actually opposed to giving kids milk. And that's my formal opinion as a pediatrician. Milk has a lot of fat, binds iron in the digestive tract, and doesn't have enough vitamin D to make it worth it.As a maximum, the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) recommends no more than 3 8oz servings of milk a day for any child of any age. I recommend no more than 2 8oz servings to my patients. However, many families give none. Instead they give yogurt, cheese, or sometimes even non-dairy sources of calcium (which is the important thing in milk, easily replaced with alternative sources).
And while we're at it, juice is pure sugar with a hint of vitamins. There are 28g of simple sugars in an 8oz serving of apple juice (at least the apple juice we have in our emergency room) while there are 27g in an 8oz serving of Coca-Cola. That's because it takes about one apple to make 1 oz of apple juice, so there are the equivalent of eight apples worth of sugar (but not vitamins, minerals, or fiber) in 8 oz of apple juice. Eat your fruit. Eat lots of it! Just don't drink it.
Children should only have juice as a rare special treat (give it to them as often as you would give them soda-pop). Other than that...water. Get them in a water habit and they'll have one healthy habit down for life.
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
BRONZE Member
nut.
756 posts
Location: Bouncing off the walls., England (UK)
nut.
756 posts
Location: Bouncing off the walls., England (UK)
Posted:
Just thought I'd point out not every mother *can* breastfeed, while it's obviously the best thing for babies, I know my mum couldn't, despite trying to, she just didn't produce much milk. It's pretty common...
Just thought I'd point out not every mother *can* breastfeed, while it's obviously the best thing for babies, I know my mum couldn't, despite trying to, she just didn't produce much milk. It's pretty common...
THE MEEK WILL INHERIT THE EARTH!
If that's okay with you?
BRONZE Member
HoP mage and keeper of the fireballs
1,965 posts
Location: Palmerston North, New Zealand
HoP mage and keeper of the fireballs
1,965 posts
Location: Palmerston North, New Zealand
Posted:
My missus tried to breastfeed for as long as possible but she started running out after about 6 weeks so we suplimented her milk with infant formular untill she ran out of milk totaly about 10 weeks after the birth.
My missus tried to breastfeed for as long as possible but she started running out after about 6 weeks so we suplimented her milk with infant formular untill she ran out of milk totaly about 10 weeks after the birth.
May my balls of fire set your balls on fire
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
Go back to 200 years ago. Go to Sub-Saharan Africa today. No formula. Simply not an option. In fact, sometimes I wonder if formula shouldn't be available by prescription only.
Many mothers feel as if they can't make enough breastmilk. About 99% of the time, the problem is actually one of breastfeeding technique. We have a lactation specialist at our hospital. Many hospitals have them these days. It's usually a nurse who has taken special training.
At our hospital, I have never once seen Maria (our lactation specialist) fail to get a mother to breastfeed. She's loaded with tricks, but it's amazing. The mother, of course, has to be motivated and needs a lot of support from the lactation specialist, but it's almost always possible.
Of course there are mothers who can't produce enough milk, but they're in a minute minority. The vast majority of women who say they don't seem to be making enough just need some support and some help with techinque to help the baby latch better and stimulate more milk production.
Go back to 200 years ago. Go to Sub-Saharan Africa today. No formula. Simply not an option. In fact, sometimes I wonder if formula shouldn't be available by prescription only.
Many mothers feel as if they can't make enough breastmilk. About 99% of the time, the problem is actually one of breastfeeding technique. We have a lactation specialist at our hospital. Many hospitals have them these days. It's usually a nurse who has taken special training.
At our hospital, I have never once seen Maria (our lactation specialist) fail to get a mother to breastfeed. She's loaded with tricks, but it's amazing. The mother, of course, has to be motivated and needs a lot of support from the lactation specialist, but it's almost always possible.
Of course there are mothers who can't produce enough milk, but they're in a minute minority. The vast majority of women who say they don't seem to be making enough just need some support and some help with techinque to help the baby latch better and stimulate more milk production.
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
BRONZE Member
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Posted:
Doc, will you turn straight for me? You'd make a lovely dad
Doc, will you turn straight for me? You'd make a lovely dad
i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey
Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...
GOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
Oops
I think it’s really sad that this couple were so isolated from family and friends that no one was in a position to give them much needed help and advice.
Oops
I think it’s really sad that this couple were so isolated from family and friends that no one was in a position to give them much needed help and advice.
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
I honestly have trouble believeing that malice wasn't at play here.
Anyone who truly loved their baby would have sought help.
I honestly have trouble believeing that malice wasn't at play here.
Anyone who truly loved their baby would have sought help.
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
GOLD Member
playing the days away
7,263 posts
Location: The Middle lands, United Kingdom
playing the days away
7,263 posts
Location: The Middle lands, United Kingdom
Posted:
So many things to quote but what stood out was
quickly followed by
And I'll have to rant a little before responding to the actual thread, sorry.
Doc, seriously, WTF do you know about being the sole carer for a new born that isn't from a text book, from afar or from a hospital educated environment? All the study, conversations with parents and baby sitting sessions in the world wouldn't prepare you for what can actually be involved when you're in a house by yourself (perhaps in the middle of nowhere in this case? I dunno) after suffering the trauma of giving birth quickly followed by no sleep, no medical or other family support, while having no experience of a new born baby and suffering the sometimes huge psychological impacts all that can amount to.
The fact that you even wrote what you did surprises me as your opinion is usually the one I agree with on these boards and I'm often impressed with your elocution and technically correct statements. I think in this case your professional involvement in Paediatrics and your absolute genuine love of children and what you do every day has biased your opinion. Sorry if that offends as it is by no means a reflection of my opinion of your obviously enviable skills and knowledge of paediatrics and your ability to be a wondeful doctor. I think you'll be a great Dad one day, I know it's something you'd excel and relish in and I hope one day you find yourself in a situation where you become the parent of a very lucky little person
Anyway, moving on to the thread.....As a parent of two very healthy, very happy and normally developing yet entirely vegetarian babies from birth I can see how this situation could arise. Albeit a very very small percentage compared to the total number of births, malnutition can sneak up on anyone, no matter how blatant the appearance of the baby is to others outside of the family unit.
If I were a judge, judging on the statements reported (of which better more consise were available only to the court house) I'd convict solely on manslaughter. And how a judicial system can convict two people on charges of Malice Murder, Felony Murder and Involuntary Manslaughter at the same time for one death of one person just highlights why the American legal system is ridiculed the world over in public opinion.
It seems to me, that the family had no support after the birth of their child, no knowledge of how poor a vegan diet is for a developing baby (as well as obviously making it even worse with the exact diet they gave the baby) and couldn't breast feed.
I hope they didn't choose not to breast feed because of a misguided beleif that they shouldn't because of their dietry lifestyle Or that they just didn't want to which is possibly even sadder
If their personal approach to a vegan diet was as incompetant as their approach to baby vegan diet and the obvious lack of kowledge of the vitamins and nutrients available from it, this could mean an almost complete deficiency of essential vitamins and nutrients in the mother over many years and perhaps they did breast feed but the milk was almost completely useless? It's an extreme of course but not impossible. Also if you're not successful with regular breast feeds within the first few weeks not only do you feel like a failure (which doesn't help the psychological condition of both parents) the milk can completely dissapear never to return no matter how often to put the baby to the breast.
There seems to have been far more to this than we can read about on the interweb and I wish I knew all the facts before posting about it, but my heart goes out to the baby and the parents who must be grieving desperately for the loss of the love of their life.
Either that, or the justice system has worked in this case and what is available for us to read from the news agencies also contains a complete lack of fact about their deliberate negligence and inflicted suffering, in which case I hope they rot.
So many things to quote but what stood out was
Written by: Doc
I don't think the punishment was harsh enough. Maybe it's because I'm a pediatrician, but any parent would be able to see that their child was wasting to death.
quickly followed by
Written by: Doc
They killed a baby. It's not that difficult to take care of a newborn. Oh yeah, it's a hell of a lot of work, but it's not difficult.
And I'll have to rant a little before responding to the actual thread, sorry.
Doc, seriously, WTF do you know about being the sole carer for a new born that isn't from a text book, from afar or from a hospital educated environment? All the study, conversations with parents and baby sitting sessions in the world wouldn't prepare you for what can actually be involved when you're in a house by yourself (perhaps in the middle of nowhere in this case? I dunno) after suffering the trauma of giving birth quickly followed by no sleep, no medical or other family support, while having no experience of a new born baby and suffering the sometimes huge psychological impacts all that can amount to.
The fact that you even wrote what you did surprises me as your opinion is usually the one I agree with on these boards and I'm often impressed with your elocution and technically correct statements. I think in this case your professional involvement in Paediatrics and your absolute genuine love of children and what you do every day has biased your opinion. Sorry if that offends as it is by no means a reflection of my opinion of your obviously enviable skills and knowledge of paediatrics and your ability to be a wondeful doctor. I think you'll be a great Dad one day, I know it's something you'd excel and relish in and I hope one day you find yourself in a situation where you become the parent of a very lucky little person
Anyway, moving on to the thread.....As a parent of two very healthy, very happy and normally developing yet entirely vegetarian babies from birth I can see how this situation could arise. Albeit a very very small percentage compared to the total number of births, malnutition can sneak up on anyone, no matter how blatant the appearance of the baby is to others outside of the family unit.
If I were a judge, judging on the statements reported (of which better more consise were available only to the court house) I'd convict solely on manslaughter. And how a judicial system can convict two people on charges of Malice Murder, Felony Murder and Involuntary Manslaughter at the same time for one death of one person just highlights why the American legal system is ridiculed the world over in public opinion.
It seems to me, that the family had no support after the birth of their child, no knowledge of how poor a vegan diet is for a developing baby (as well as obviously making it even worse with the exact diet they gave the baby) and couldn't breast feed.
I hope they didn't choose not to breast feed because of a misguided beleif that they shouldn't because of their dietry lifestyle
Or that they just didn't want to which is possibly even sadder If their personal approach to a vegan diet was as incompetant as their approach to baby vegan diet and the obvious lack of kowledge of the vitamins and nutrients available from it, this could mean an almost complete deficiency of essential vitamins and nutrients in the mother over many years and perhaps they did breast feed but the milk was almost completely useless? It's an extreme of course but not impossible. Also if you're not successful with regular breast feeds within the first few weeks not only do you feel like a failure (which doesn't help the psychological condition of both parents) the milk can completely dissapear never to return no matter how often to put the baby to the breast.
There seems to have been far more to this than we can read about on the interweb and I wish I knew all the facts before posting about it, but my heart goes out to the baby and the parents who must be grieving desperately for the loss of the love of their life.
Either that, or the justice system has worked in this case and what is available for us to read from the news agencies also contains a complete lack of fact about their deliberate negligence and inflicted suffering, in which case I hope they rot.
Let's relight this forum 
SILVER Member
what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
4,030 posts
Location: Bali, Australia
what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
4,030 posts
Location: Bali, Australia
Posted:
People who have particuarly strong views on diet eg vegans or macrobiotics can be very hard to give 'sensible advice' too as they take the 'high moral ground' and disregard orthodoxy. The woman I knew (see my post above) who did similar to the parents in this thread was told by health people and her mother that the baby was in trouble. Her response was that 'slow growth is good growth' (she showed me the page in the book where her diet guru said that. He was referring to not using fertiliser on vegetables but hey...) When the baby started shrivelling up she said he was 'purifying' and that she was glad he was going to be a small like a Japanese baby and not a 'bloated Western baby'. Towards the end the baby stopped crying much and made a sort of high pitched noise instead. Eventually the grandmother came in and took it, but I think the little one was pretty damaged by then.
The question of malice/intention in a case like this is interesting. It has come up a few times in news lately. These people may well have been trying to do something 'right' but been ignorant. That doesn't sound like murder. Someone who bashed a stranger to death on the street near here walked free because he didn't intend any particular blow to kill. (That was the Rodney King LAPD defence wasn't it?)
Personally in my life I feel I made a mistake in that I gave my daughter soybased baby formulas although I had no evidnece she wouldn't handle milk based ones. (Not enjoying close contact with piranhas I don't tend to breastfeed babies once they got teeth...) Now I know more about soy/thyroid I wouldn't do that again.
Written by: Stone
I think it’s really sad that this couple were so isolated from family and friends that no one was in a position to give them much needed help and advice.
People who have particuarly strong views on diet eg vegans or macrobiotics can be very hard to give 'sensible advice' too as they take the 'high moral ground' and disregard orthodoxy. The woman I knew (see my post above) who did similar to the parents in this thread was told by health people and her mother that the baby was in trouble. Her response was that 'slow growth is good growth' (she showed me the page in the book where her diet guru said that. He was referring to not using fertiliser on vegetables but hey...) When the baby started shrivelling up she said he was 'purifying' and that she was glad he was going to be a small like a Japanese baby and not a 'bloated Western baby'. Towards the end the baby stopped crying much and made a sort of high pitched noise instead. Eventually the grandmother came in and took it, but I think the little one was pretty damaged by then.
The question of malice/intention in a case like this is interesting. It has come up a few times in news lately. These people may well have been trying to do something 'right' but been ignorant. That doesn't sound like murder. Someone who bashed a stranger to death on the street near here walked free because he didn't intend any particular blow to kill. (That was the Rodney King LAPD defence wasn't it?)
Personally in my life I feel I made a mistake in that I gave my daughter soybased baby formulas although I had no evidnece she wouldn't handle milk based ones. (Not enjoying close contact with piranhas I don't tend to breastfeed babies once they got teeth...) Now I know more about soy/thyroid I wouldn't do that again.
.....Can't juggle balls but I sure as hell can juggle details....
SILVER Member
Member
20 posts
Location: USA
Member
20 posts
Location: USA
Posted:
these people give a bad name to vegans. throughout time there have been people who sadly do not treat their children right and it leads to their death.
most vegan parents, who raise their children vegan, would never even think of acting like they did. just like most non-vegan parents. please don't judge one group of people just because of some psychos.
and the idea of "forcing a vegan diet" on a child is ridiculous. any diet you feed your child is "forced" if they are too young to make a decision. (heck if it was up to them when they are old enough they'd only eat junk food!) as long as the child is healthy, and most vegan children are, that's all that matters. clearly, that didn't happen in this case. it really is tragic.
i'm actually not vegan but i know many people who are, including families with healthy children.
these people give a bad name to vegans. throughout time there have been people who sadly do not treat their children right and it leads to their death.
most vegan parents, who raise their children vegan, would never even think of acting like they did. just like most non-vegan parents. please don't judge one group of people just because of some psychos.
and the idea of "forcing a vegan diet" on a child is ridiculous. any diet you feed your child is "forced" if they are too young to make a decision. (heck if it was up to them when they are old enough they'd only eat junk food!) as long as the child is healthy, and most vegan children are, that's all that matters. clearly, that didn't happen in this case. it really is tragic.
i'm actually not vegan but i know many people who are, including families with healthy children.
aka hunnybear in burning man circles
avatar: hunnybear - nj - 06/16/07 (c) abjectphoto
GOLD Member
Basu gasu bakuhatsu - because sometimes buses explode
1,584 posts
Location: Angels Landing, USA
Basu gasu bakuhatsu - because sometimes buses explode
1,584 posts
Location: Angels Landing, USA
Posted:
We talked about this on a news site ad nauseum, and the general consensus were that the parents were just [censored] idiots and merely used the "vegan defense".
They didn't take the baby to a doctor until after it was 3 pounds and DEAD. It was a little baby skeleton!
Bloody morons.
We talked about this on a news site ad nauseum, and the general consensus were that the parents were just [censored] idiots and merely used the "vegan defense".
They didn't take the baby to a doctor until after it was 3 pounds and DEAD. It was a little baby skeleton!
Bloody morons.
To do: More Firedrums 08 video?
Wildfire/US East coast fire footage
LA/EDC glow/fire footage
Fresno fire
GOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
Fair comment Doc, the prosecutors said the couple “intentionally neglected their child and refused to take him to the doctor even as the baby’s body wasted away”. Thanks for the good advice, and showing us a different perspective on life.
I agree newgabe, it doesn't sound like murder. I still think it’s sad that this couple were so isolated from family and friends that no one was in a position to give them much needed help and advice.
Fair comment Doc, the prosecutors said the couple “intentionally neglected their child and refused to take him to the doctor even as the baby’s body wasted away”. Thanks for the good advice, and showing us a different perspective on life.
I agree newgabe, it doesn't sound like murder. I still think it’s sad that this couple were so isolated from family and friends that no one was in a position to give them much needed help and advice.
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
GOLD Member
Dangerous cynic
166 posts
Location: United Kingdom
Dangerous cynic
166 posts
Location: United Kingdom
Posted:
The baby may not have been born in a hospital. The care a mother and baby get only happen because the mother goes to the Dr when she is pregnant, goes to hospital to give birth and registers the birth, if a mother chooses not to do these things, not only does the baby not get healthcare, the authorities just don't know it exists.
It's really hard to see where the line lies between ignorance and negligence here. I'm not sure whether to feel sorry for them. They probably need to be locked up for their own safety, either way.
I have a friend who is a veggie not by her own choice, but because she was raised by veggies and never developed the ability to digest meat. She has be hospitalised twice after accidentally eating meat products. Parents really need to think responsibly about the child before making important choices that will affect them into adulthood.
Written by: PK_
if the baby like most are after being released from hospital are monitored by doctors etcetera than surely a malnourished baby would have been admitted immediately.
The baby may not have been born in a hospital. The care a mother and baby get only happen because the mother goes to the Dr when she is pregnant, goes to hospital to give birth and registers the birth, if a mother chooses not to do these things, not only does the baby not get healthcare, the authorities just don't know it exists.
It's really hard to see where the line lies between ignorance and negligence here. I'm not sure whether to feel sorry for them. They probably need to be locked up for their own safety, either way.
I have a friend who is a veggie not by her own choice, but because she was raised by veggies and never developed the ability to digest meat. She has be hospitalised twice after accidentally eating meat products. Parents really need to think responsibly about the child before making important choices that will affect them into adulthood.
BRONZE Member
Lambretta Fanatic
4,997 posts
Location: United Kingdom
Lambretta Fanatic
4,997 posts
Location: United Kingdom
Posted:
You have 2 very beautiful babies Dunc, but what you you are saying is that your children do not have the right in their own choice however impossible that is at such a young age, but as to make up their own minds, so in fact by you and your partners forcing diet kind of puts you in the same predicament in being judged by others.
I'm not judging you, I wouldn't wish to offend you either, I just think that people should be able to make up their own minds when they are old enough and educated enough to know what they are doing to them selves and not bought up a specific way in choice by parents.
Take for instance, my partner wishes to baptise our son, I'm for letting him decide when he is old enough to decide for him self, they are a Christian family and have their beliefs, I was Christened myself, not by my choice and I think that that reflects in my childhood and that I don't care for religion. I have agreed that he can be Christened, non of my family and friends will be present .
However I will agree with what Dunc said in regards to Doc's post, being a parent for the first time is no easy ride and me and Dunc are the fathers!.. what about the mothers.
It is not common knowledge and I don't think that I have even posted this before but my partner fell ill during the first week of pregnancy, after our son was born at 29 weeks and only 2lbs 6oz we found out what her illness was, She suffers Systemic Lupus Erythematosus and had a Stroke in her brain. It took over a year to diagnose, and turned out to be the cause of our sons premature birth.
Still to this day a year later after her being left for dead undiagnosed in the hospital she can not take full care of our son.... I'm sure most of you know what it is like living with in-laws... well I don't have a choice, my mother in-law has to be around to help raise our son whilst I have to go to work so that we have money... fortunately I have a good job that pays well and has prospects, unfortunately I'm gone for up to 14 hours a day from the house, so don't have the so much time alone with my son.
I myself don't have the support and advice from nearby friends and family, one of my closest friends decided to stop speaking to me around 2 years ago, my other friends and family all live in England.
I've held strong through the worst 2 years of my life and I have a beautiful healthy son, who is constantly monitored weekly by his paediatrician, and has regular check ups with physiotherapist's, psychologist's and Optometrist until the age of three minimum due to his rather extreme premature birth, and health problems.
Yes I know, I was generalising with my comment. My cousin is about to give birth to her second child in a matter of months, this time around her doctors have told her that she can give birth at home for the reason that she is obese.
Anyway just a few thoughts, I hope I have not offended either Dunc or Doc.
to any parents reading this.
Written by: Dunc
As a parent of two very healthy, very happy and normally developing yet entirely vegetarian babies from birth.
You have 2 very beautiful babies Dunc, but what you you are saying is that your children do not have the right in their own choice however impossible that is at such a young age, but as to make up their own minds, so in fact by you and your partners forcing diet kind of puts you in the same predicament in being judged by others.
I'm not judging you, I wouldn't wish to offend you either, I just think that people should be able to make up their own minds when they are old enough and educated enough to know what they are doing to them selves and not bought up a specific way in choice by parents.
Take for instance, my partner wishes to baptise our son, I'm for letting him decide when he is old enough to decide for him self, they are a Christian family and have their beliefs, I was Christened myself, not by my choice and I think that that reflects in my childhood and that I don't care for religion. I have agreed that he can be Christened, non of my family and friends will be present
.However I will agree with what Dunc said in regards to Doc's post, being a parent for the first time is no easy ride and me and Dunc are the fathers!.. what about the mothers.
It is not common knowledge and I don't think that I have even posted this before but my partner fell ill during the first week of pregnancy, after our son was born at 29 weeks and only 2lbs 6oz we found out what her illness was, She suffers Systemic Lupus Erythematosus and had a Stroke in her brain. It took over a year to diagnose, and turned out to be the cause of our sons premature birth.
Still to this day a year later after her being left for dead undiagnosed in the hospital she can not take full care of our son.... I'm sure most of you know what it is like living with in-laws... well I don't have a choice, my mother in-law has to be around to help raise our son whilst I have to go to work so that we have money... fortunately I have a good job that pays well and has prospects, unfortunately I'm gone for up to 14 hours a day from the house, so don't have the so much time alone with my son.
I myself don't have the support and advice from nearby friends and family, one of my closest friends decided to stop speaking to me around 2 years ago, my other friends and family all live in England.
I've held strong through the worst 2 years of my life and I have a beautiful healthy son, who is constantly monitored weekly by his paediatrician, and has regular check ups with physiotherapist's, psychologist's and Optometrist until the age of three minimum due to his rather extreme premature birth, and health problems.
Written by: Kash
The baby may not have been born in a hospital.
Yes I know, I was generalising with my comment. My cousin is about to give birth to her second child in a matter of months, this time around her doctors have told her that she can give birth at home for the reason that she is obese.
Anyway just a few thoughts, I hope I have not offended either Dunc or Doc.
to any parents reading this. GOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
Hi PK, I don’t know what to say. It would be difficult to bring up a son when you are so isolated from family and friends. Perhaps you could mend your difference with your closest friend, and get in contact with your other friends and family living in England.
Hi PK, I don’t know what to say. It would be difficult to bring up a son when you are so isolated from family and friends. Perhaps you could mend your difference with your closest friend, and get in contact with your other friends and family living in England.
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
I owe a big apology. As is my wont, I spouted off my mouth (fingers?) without going back and seeing how it looked.
And it came out different than I meant it. Of course it's hard as hell, scary, overwhelming, and grueling. I've never done it myself. Oh sure, I can change a diaper in 15 seconds flat and I can get (almost) any baby to stop crying and go back to sleep in 60 seconds or less (5 minutes if the baby's hungry and needs to be fed), but they're never mine.
That said, it is not hard to tell that a baby is lethargic, shrinking, shrivled, has sunken eyes, or weighs less than half its birthweight. I could do all of that long before I ever went to medical school. And so can any teenage parent with a borderline-low IQ.
Make no mistake: this baby wasn't killed by veganism. This baby was killed by his parents.
Written by: Dunc
Doc, seriously, WTF do you know about being the sole carer for a new born that isn't from a text book, from afar or from a hospital educated environment? All the study, conversations with parents and baby sitting sessions in the world wouldn't prepare you for what can actually be involved when you're in a house by yourself (perhaps in the middle of nowhere in this case? I dunno) after suffering the trauma of giving birth quickly followed by no sleep, no medical or other family support, while having no experience of a new born baby and suffering the sometimes huge psychological impacts all that can amount to.
I owe a big apology.
As is my wont, I spouted off my mouth (fingers?) without going back and seeing how it looked.And it came out different than I meant it. Of course it's hard as hell, scary, overwhelming, and grueling. I've never done it myself. Oh sure, I can change a diaper in 15 seconds flat and I can get (almost) any baby to stop crying and go back to sleep in 60 seconds or less (5 minutes if the baby's hungry and needs to be fed), but they're never mine.
That said, it is not hard to tell that a baby is lethargic, shrinking, shrivled, has sunken eyes, or weighs less than half its birthweight. I could do all of that long before I ever went to medical school. And so can any teenage parent with a borderline-low IQ.
Make no mistake: this baby wasn't killed by veganism. This baby was killed by his parents.
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
I keep on seeing these soy-thyroid/cancer/green spots on your nose/aliens-will-abduct-you claims, but I've never seen a good, reproducible study that links soy with any ill effect.
Written by: newgabe
Personally in my life I feel I made a mistake in that I gave my daughter soybased baby formulas although I had no evidnece she wouldn't handle milk based ones. (Not enjoying close contact with piranhas I don't tend to breastfeed babies once they got teeth...) Now I know more about soy/thyroid I wouldn't do that again.
I keep on seeing these soy-thyroid/cancer/green spots on your nose/aliens-will-abduct-you claims, but I've never seen a good, reproducible study that links soy with any ill effect.
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
SILVER Member
Member
20 posts
Location: USA
Member
20 posts
Location: USA
Posted:
PK, first - i do not mean this as an attack in any way, and my heart goes out to you and your family!
i just don't "get" this line of thought and want to know why people keep saying this (not just you - so when i say you below i mean plural you ;o)
but, ANY and EVERY choice made by parents is forced on a baby/child! i don't get why it's a big issue to not feed meat. is that any different than a parent not feeding a baby green beans, because the parent hates green beans? (*as long as the child is getting proper nutrition of course! in every case*) when the child is old enough to make the choice they can. just like many raised by omnivores CHOOSE to give up meat. how many things that you didn't like were you forced to eat by your parents? or things you LOVED and were forbidden in your home?
so i just don't see how feeding a baby a vegetarian diet because that's what you eat is forcing them to do anything differently than your neighbors who give their child meat.
is it because they'll be teased at school? heck. kids tease over anything. and they'll find something, even if it's not diet. is it because others judge the parents? but - from what i hear from people with kids - strangers always will butt in and push their own beliefs on you. whatever you do, someone will think it's wrong. you're breastfeeding? someone will be adamantly against that. you aren't? someone will be preaching about how breast milk is better. when you start raising kids solely based on what others believe/think, you're in trouble.
and as a veggie, i hate even dealing with my cat's food. i would not want to cook meat for a child as i can't stand raw chicken and meat.
i support the right that everyone can make their own choice, but i keep seeing the term "forced" and it confuses/angers me.....
PK, first - i do not mean this as an attack in any way, and my heart goes out to you and your family!
i just don't "get" this line of thought and want to know why people keep saying this (not just you - so when i say you below i mean plural you ;o)
Written by: PK_
but what you you are saying is that your children do not have the right in their own choice however impossible that is at such a young age, but as to make up their own minds, so in fact by you and your partners forcing diet kind of puts you in the same predicament in being judged by others.
but, ANY and EVERY choice made by parents is forced on a baby/child! i don't get why it's a big issue to not feed meat. is that any different than a parent not feeding a baby green beans, because the parent hates green beans? (*as long as the child is getting proper nutrition of course! in every case*) when the child is old enough to make the choice they can. just like many raised by omnivores CHOOSE to give up meat. how many things that you didn't like were you forced to eat by your parents? or things you LOVED and were forbidden in your home?
so i just don't see how feeding a baby a vegetarian diet because that's what you eat is forcing them to do anything differently than your neighbors who give their child meat.
is it because they'll be teased at school? heck. kids tease over anything. and they'll find something, even if it's not diet. is it because others judge the parents? but - from what i hear from people with kids - strangers always will butt in and push their own beliefs on you. whatever you do, someone will think it's wrong. you're breastfeeding? someone will be adamantly against that. you aren't? someone will be preaching about how breast milk is better. when you start raising kids solely based on what others believe/think, you're in trouble.
and as a veggie, i hate even dealing with my cat's food. i would not want to cook meat for a child as i can't stand raw chicken and meat.
i support the right that everyone can make their own choice, but i keep seeing the term "forced" and it confuses/angers me.....
aka hunnybear in burning man circles
avatar: hunnybear - nj - 06/16/07 (c) abjectphoto
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
Here's my view on making choices for a baby:
1) You will make choices for your baby because she cannot choose for herself. Whatever you do, try to minimize the harm you cause.
2) Unless absolutely necessary, make no decisions that cannot be reversed by the child when he grows up (this is why I oppose circumcision).
3) Treat any child in the way you would want to be treated.
Not so complicated, really.
Here's my view on making choices for a baby:
1) You will make choices for your baby because she cannot choose for herself. Whatever you do, try to minimize the harm you cause.
2) Unless absolutely necessary, make no decisions that cannot be reversed by the child when he grows up (this is why I oppose circumcision).
3) Treat any child in the way you would want to be treated.
Not so complicated, really.
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
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