Forums > Social Discussion > My CV needs work/ Who wants to be nosey?
Login/Join to ParticipateSILVER Member
15,417 posts
Location: South Wales
15,417 posts
Location: South Wales
Posted:
Hello there my lovelies!
Im having a bit of a problem finding a good job that I like at the moment, and im really wondering where Im being let down.
My only interest is in IT jobs, and those are the ones I am primarily looking for, however, I really am considering anything as bills must be paid. Im sure you can appreciate that.
So, I was wondering if I could call on your guys to give me some tips. Or alternatively, just have a look at what I have done with my life and tell me to stop being a slacker.
So, here is my CV, and this is my covering letter.
** Second attempt** This is my second attempt. My second attempt is in the sentence before this one.
Try, try and try again
Once more with feeling.
Cover letter Mark II
Almost finished it is. Also available in PDF
Cover letter Mk. 3, also in PDF
Any tips and/or suggestions are greatly appreciated.
Non-Https Image Link
EDITED_BY: UnbearablyColdOrFreezing (1180267700)
Hello there my lovelies!
Im having a bit of a problem finding a good job that I like at the moment, and im really wondering where Im being let down.
My only interest is in IT jobs, and those are the ones I am primarily looking for, however, I really am considering anything as bills must be paid. Im sure you can appreciate that.
So, I was wondering if I could call on your guys to give me some tips. Or alternatively, just have a look at what I have done with my life and tell me to stop being a slacker.
So, here is my CV, and this is my covering letter.
** Second attempt** This is my second attempt. My second attempt is in the sentence before this one.
Try, try and try again
Once more with feeling.
Cover letter Mark II
Almost finished it is. Also available in PDF
Cover letter Mk. 3, also in PDF
Any tips and/or suggestions are greatly appreciated.
Non-Https Image Link
EDITED_BY: UnbearablyColdOrFreezing (1180267700)
Pooh-Bah
2,419 posts
Location: la-la land
2,419 posts
Location: la-la land
Posted:
Jon.. get my hotmail addy off Mech and I'll help ya over MSN..
should be on line tonight - I've read the first page of the cv and it would be easier to have a 'net meeting' with you..
xx
Jon.. get my hotmail addy off Mech and I'll help ya over MSN..
should be on line tonight - I've read the first page of the cv and it would be easier to have a 'net meeting' with you..
xx
I honour you as an aspect of myself..
You are never to old to storm a bouncey castle..
SILVER Member
15,417 posts
Location: South Wales
15,417 posts
Location: South Wales
Posted:
You no longer using the ****_firedragon one, or is that it?
Thanks
You no longer using the ****_firedragon one, or is that it?
Thanks
BRONZE Member
wandering thru the woods of WI
3,556 posts
Location: Wisconsin, USA
wandering thru the woods of WI
3,556 posts
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posted:
just glancing at it from my recruiting perspective and being in the US:
It is a little wordy, a little conversational. What are you really looking for? Make your sentences strong. Over here fragments and key words are vital.
ex:
I learned MSOffice while at University.
instead
Utilized MsOffice on a regular basis at University.
I managed 10 people.
instead
Managed 10 people, leading them to successful completion of company goals.
Overall, I liked you cover letter. Remember to customize it to a position. The scouting paragraph rounds you at as a person which is what managers are looking for, but it seems out of place. The letter seems to be organized by timeline and then you throw in the venture scouts. Lastly, the learning to drive needs to be stronger.
ex:
I don't have my driver's license, but am 6hrs of driving class away. I expect to have my license by (enter reasonable date).
This is just my perspective as an American and as a recruiter
just glancing at it from my recruiting perspective and being in the US:
It is a little wordy, a little conversational. What are you really looking for? Make your sentences strong. Over here fragments and key words are vital.
ex:
I learned MSOffice while at University.
instead
Utilized MsOffice on a regular basis at University.
I managed 10 people.
instead
Managed 10 people, leading them to successful completion of company goals.
Overall, I liked you cover letter. Remember to customize it to a position. The scouting paragraph rounds you at as a person which is what managers are looking for, but it seems out of place. The letter seems to be organized by timeline and then you throw in the venture scouts. Lastly, the learning to drive needs to be stronger.
ex:
I don't have my driver's license, but am 6hrs of driving class away. I expect to have my license by (enter reasonable date).
This is just my perspective as an American and as a recruiter
Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed
Pooh-Bah
2,419 posts
Location: la-la land
2,419 posts
Location: la-la land
Posted:
yep that's the one :o)
Agreed with what Faith has said.. bit whaffly, but we'll sort it out
yep that's the one :o)
Agreed with what Faith has said.. bit whaffly, but we'll sort it out
I honour you as an aspect of myself..
You are never to old to storm a bouncey castle..
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
Also, don't use the word "literate" for your use of computer programs. Use "proficient." It's stronger.
Also, don't use the word "literate" for your use of computer programs. Use "proficient." It's stronger.
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
BRONZE Member
wandering thru the woods of WI
3,556 posts
Location: Wisconsin, USA
wandering thru the woods of WI
3,556 posts
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posted:
be strong and confident. make it clear that they would be idiots for not hiring you
be strong and confident. make it clear that they would be idiots for not hiring you
Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed
SILVER Member
All the neurotic makings of America's lesser known sweetheart
9,831 posts
Location: body in Las Vegas, heart all around the world, USA
All the neurotic makings of America's lesser known sweetheart
9,831 posts
Location: body in Las Vegas, heart all around the world, USA
Posted:
agreed with everyone else. bullet points of skills/duties tends to go over better...it makes it easier to read and more to the point. you gotta think of it as a manager who is looking through a stack of applications and CV's....they aren't necessarily going to take the time to read a paragraph when they can skim through bullet points and still get the information in a quicker and more concise manner.
agreed with everyone else. bullet points of skills/duties tends to go over better...it makes it easier to read and more to the point. you gotta think of it as a manager who is looking through a stack of applications and CV's....they aren't necessarily going to take the time to read a paragraph when they can skim through bullet points and still get the information in a quicker and more concise manner.
I was always scared with my mother's obsession with the good scissors. It made me wonder if there were evil scissors lurking in the house somewhere.
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.
**giggles**
SILVER Member
veteran
1,228 posts
Location: on the wrong planet, United Kingdom
veteran
1,228 posts
Location: on the wrong planet, United Kingdom
Posted:
Written by: The Non-Expert:: Defenestrate Your Résumé!
Here are 10 tips to help you craft a résumé that is virtually bulletproof!
1. Use Quality Paper
Would Leonardo DaVinci have painted Mona Lisa on a pelt? Would Michelangelo have redecorated the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel if it had been covered with that weird ’70s-era popcorn stuff? Nay! So why would you submit a résumé on anything less than 100% Cotton Fiber 32 lb. Ivory Premium Bond Paper? Because you’re a dolt, perhaps?
Ideally your résumé paper will be so thick that folding it will require hydraulics. But even if that’s not the case, don’t even consider cramming it into a standard business envelope. Your résumé should be submitted in a manila envelope or delivered in person. Better yet, deliver it in a manila envelope. And better than that, visit the HR Director’s home in the dead of night and leave your résumé on the kitchen table. This will show that you are willing to ‘go the extra mile,’ and it may earn you bonus points if you’re applying to become a locksmith or ninja.
2. Keep It To One Page
Most companies automatically forward résumés of two-pages or longer to Popeye’s Chicken, so be sure to confine things confided to a single sheet. If you are having trouble getting everything to fit, try narrowing your margins, reducing your font to 7, or getting rid of the ‘deadweight’ by eliminating your education or omitting the nouns.
3. Career Objective
True though it is, admitting that your ultimate ambition is to ‘smell better’ is probably not wise. Better to state some wildly over-optimistic, pie-in-the-sky ideal that will provoke pity and disgust from the reader.
Seeking high-paying, senior-level supervisory position with a Fortune 500 company utilizing my salmon management skills and Bachelor of Arts in dance.
If you are lucky, you résumé will be reviewed by a disgruntled HR drone stuck in a dead-end job who wants nothing more than to quash your lofty goals by shoehorning you into the $14/hr. position you are applying for. Success!
4. Encrypt Your Previous Work Experience
Much of résumé writing (and reading) involves the encryption and decryption of job titles and duties. If you run the till at the local Crate & Barrel and spend much of your day watching ElimiDate and shooing off customers before they can interrupt you, you would say:
Duties included fiduciary management, oversight of social networking multimedia presentations, proactive deterrence of nascent consumer purchases.
Unfortunately, the HR department – which has seen hundred of résumés employing this tactic – will read this and write ‘ElimiDate-watching cashier / slacker’ on their internal forms. So your only real hope is to make your job description so opaque that nothing short of a top-secret British codebreaking cabal could possibly understand what you did.
Duties included whiffling through the tulgey wood, lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, Ph’nglui inglw’nafh Cthulhu R’lyeh wgah’nagl fhtagn.
5. Use Action Words
If there’s one thing a CEO hates more than an congressional investigation initiated by those simpering nancy-boys at the FEC, it’s the passive tense. That’s why you should pack your résumé to the gills with Action Words. Action Words make your prose so urgent, so immediate and great that your résumé will literally grab the reader by the nose and throw him out the window.
Here are the key Action Words you should include in your résumé, preferably all in one sentence.
Coordinated, Managed, Assisted, Moistened, Established, Supervised, Suborned, Shanghaied, Taught, Developed, Ululated, Chortled, Designed, Toadied, Maintained, Achieved, Swashbuckled, Spelunked, Oversaw, Prioritized, Defenstrated
6. Don’t Leave Unexplained Gaps In Your Work History
Unexplained space between your past dates of employment may inspire uncomfortable questions. The least honest and therefore recommended method is simply to extend the end-date of the preceding job to obviate the discrepancy.
April 1983 – Present: Marketing Director, Betamax Industries
Alternatively, if you were engaged in a valuable activity during the time frame, you can simply state what you were doing:
August 1998 – January 2001: Full-time parent
That said, some gaps are better left unexplained.
June 1998 – August 1998: Bender
7. Don’t Use The First-Person
Inexperienced job seekers often make the classic, rookie mistake of writing their résumé in first person.
Over 5,000 accounts were assigned to me, and my efficient and professional management of them was recognized with the company’s ‘Super Sales Star’ award.
Unfortunately, a savvy potential employer may realize that you, personally, wrote the résumé you are submitting. This is why many résumé-writing experts advocate the use of third-person instead:
Over 800 accounts were assigned to The Non-Expert, and his efficient and professional management of them was recognized with the company’s ‘Sales Superstar’ award.
Now we have the impression that an impassive third-party evaluated your skills and spontaneously volunteered to write an even-handed, scrupulously accurate résumé on your behalf. HR folks fall for this every time, God love ‘em.
Better yet, try using the second-person:
You assigned over 5,000 to The Non-Expert, and, after observing his efficient and professional management of them, you gave him the company’s ‘Sales Superstar’ award. Then you gave him a ten-grand bonus and a corner office.
Worth a shot!
8. Prioritize
HR personnel, unlike you, have full-time jobs, so they have neither the time to read entire résumés nor the fortnights to clear the Minesweeper basic level in under eight seconds. Solution: put the most important information where they are most likely to see it. Conversely, stick the less impressive information at the bottom.
Managed over 800 accounts with over $700,000 in liquid assets from over 75 foreign and domestic sources;
Analyzed market and forecast sales, prepared corporate budgets and monitored results to achieve ROI objectives;
Got shitcanned.
9. Use Buzz Words and Acronyms
Nothing shows you know your stuff like an incomprehensible string of buzz words and jargon, so be sure to include lots in your job descriptions. Better yet, pepper your résumé with acronyms – this demonstrates that you’re the kind of active, multi-tasking go-getter that doesn’t have time for whole words
Fluent in ASP, SQL, C++, HTML, MCSE, MCP+I, TCP/IP, CCA, CCNA, token ring and PCMCIA network interface cards for LAN connectivity. Assisted CEO, VP, and CSS with HPPD-related PKs and assorted AFM-oriented tasks. Frequented T.G.I.Fridays. Was all like OMG STFU.
10. Conclusion
Conclude your résumé by including miscellaneous information such as ‘First aid certified,’ ‘Fluent in Spanish,’ ‘Willing to travel,’ and ‘Reference Available Upon Request’ in a final section entitled ‘Additional Lies.’
You aren't thinking or really existing unless you're willing to risk even your own sanity in the judgment of your existence.
Green peppers, lime pickle and whole-grain mustard = best sandwich filling.
BRONZE Member
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Posted:
I have to disagree with the keeping it to one page thing.
I've done a CV improvement workshop and one of the things we were told is that while you don't want it too long, a single page looks like you are just out of highschool. And I agree. One that is a little longer looks more professional as it highlights that you have had lots of experience. Also, there is no way you could get all the info you need onto single page if you are anything other than just out of highschool!
I have to disagree with the keeping it to one page thing.
I've done a CV improvement workshop and one of the things we were told is that while you don't want it too long, a single page looks like you are just out of highschool. And I agree. One that is a little longer looks more professional as it highlights that you have had lots of experience. Also, there is no way you could get all the info you need onto single page if you are anything other than just out of highschool!
i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey
Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...
SILVER Member
veteran
1,433 posts
Location: 8 days at Cloudbreak, 6 in Perth, Australia
veteran
1,433 posts
Location: 8 days at Cloudbreak, 6 in Perth, Australia
Posted:
Ohhhhh....if you can e-mail me a copy of your resume I can actually do a better one for you that may help.
A couple of years ago I worked for a redeployment company (sounds fancier than it is believe me) and I used to make up about 30 odd resumes every day.
I still have the templates that I used and I often do my friends resumes.
PM me if you want me to do that for ya!
Ohhhhh....if you can e-mail me a copy of your resume I can actually do a better one for you that may help.
A couple of years ago I worked for a redeployment company (sounds fancier than it is believe me) and I used to make up about 30 odd resumes every day.
I still have the templates that I used and I often do my friends resumes.
PM me if you want me to do that for ya!
SILVER Member
veteran
1,228 posts
Location: on the wrong planet, United Kingdom
veteran
1,228 posts
Location: on the wrong planet, United Kingdom
Posted:
There's a FoaF who has so many letters after his name it would take up the whole first page anyway (It's his thing, doing stuff that adds to his title). If I had the money I'd stay at University my whole life too.
There's a FoaF who has so many letters after his name it would take up the whole first page anyway (It's his thing, doing stuff that adds to his title). If I had the money I'd stay at University my whole life too.
You aren't thinking or really existing unless you're willing to risk even your own sanity in the judgment of your existence.
Green peppers, lime pickle and whole-grain mustard = best sandwich filling.
GOLD Member
ZORT!
3,045 posts
Location: Brisbane, Australia
ZORT!
3,045 posts
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posted:
i also disagree with the one page this. two pages is a nice length in my opinion.
i dont have time to go through line by line right now, but my general comment is that you jobs descriptions are too conversational. They want to know what you can do - not read your life story.
my background is engineering - and ive been reading all the potential graduate resumes for about 2 years now - so this is how i would write it.
Eg
I would write this as
Guildhall, 8 digit number, what your bosses did, why you left, and that you dont like tedious jobs so you left, so all be left out. If it comes up in the interview - fine tell the story then - but for your resume show what you can do, and what youve acheived. in my view the tone should be as impersonal third person as possible.
in similar vein, i would cut down on the 'enjoyed working here' say what you enjoy in your cover letter - stick to the facts in your resume.
Keep your reference till the end as well. i suppose you could put it as a find point "- Reference Available" but i would suggest leaving that till the last section.
Ive got a certain birthday party here tonight so have to start running around like a madman - but ill write some more when the hangover eases off tomorrow.
EDITED_BY: Dentrassi (1179543377)
i also disagree with the one page this. two pages is a nice length in my opinion.
i dont have time to go through line by line right now, but my general comment is that you jobs descriptions are too conversational. They want to know what you can do - not read your life story.
my background is engineering - and ive been reading all the potential graduate resumes for about 2 years now - so this is how i would write it.
Eg
Written by:
Temporary work – General admin
I was assigned to work for the council in the Council Tax Recovery department at the Guildhall, and was originally told I would be there for 6 weeks. This job consisted mainly of working with 8 digit numbers, looking them up on the Council Tax database, and working out what needed to be done, based on the current stage of that Account. I was only t here for 2 weeks as I was getting through all the work, much faster than they had anticipated, and my bosses were finding me longer and more tedious jobs to do. A positive reference is available
I would write this as
Written by:
Council Tax Recovery department - Temp Admin Position
- Taxation Database entry & maintainence
- Planned/initiated future action list (or something like that. you said "and working out what needed to be done, based on the current stage of that Account" - WHAT needed to be done? what types of action items did you apply to your findings)
- Completed 6 week project in 2 week period
Guildhall, 8 digit number, what your bosses did, why you left, and that you dont like tedious jobs so you left, so all be left out. If it comes up in the interview - fine tell the story then - but for your resume show what you can do, and what youve acheived. in my view the tone should be as impersonal third person as possible.
in similar vein, i would cut down on the 'enjoyed working here' say what you enjoy in your cover letter - stick to the facts in your resume.
Keep your reference till the end as well. i suppose you could put it as a find point "- Reference Available" but i would suggest leaving that till the last section.
Ive got a certain birthday party here tonight so have to start running around like a madman - but ill write some more when the hangover eases off tomorrow.
EDITED_BY: Dentrassi (1179543377)
"Here kitty kitty...." - Schroedinger.
SILVER Member
what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
4,030 posts
Location: Bali, Australia
what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
4,030 posts
Location: Bali, Australia
Posted:
Yep, as above
*dot points
*action words
*achievements
A CV is like a pizza flyer. It says
*newest feature first- Now Organic!
*crispy crust
*fresh tomatoes
*tasty cheese
*extra herbs
Not where the flour is stored or the hairstyle of the delivery driver
Unless you're selling Irie Rasta Pizzas. In which case it's the first thing you'd mention. And the extra herbs
Yep, as above
*dot points
*action words
*achievements
A CV is like a pizza flyer. It says
*newest feature first- Now Organic!
*crispy crust
*fresh tomatoes
*tasty cheese
*extra herbs
Not where the flour is stored or the hairstyle of the delivery driver
Unless you're selling Irie Rasta Pizzas. In which case it's the first thing you'd mention. And the extra herbs
.....Can't juggle balls but I sure as hell can juggle details....
BRONZE Member
Sitting down facing forward . . .
2,387 posts
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
Sitting down facing forward . . .
2,387 posts
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
Posted:
Agree with most of the above also.
The CV's in the wrong order. You have to write it for the people who are reading it not yourself - they are not trying to SELECT a person, they are trying to DEselect a list of people down to one. Don't give them a reason to throw yours on the trash heap cos it's taking too long to get to anything good. You really got to get that into your head when you put together this important document.
First thing they want to know reasonably quickly is roughly what age and experience you are - so age and most recent/relevant qualification first, then a sentence or paragraph summarising your career to date.
Then your more detailed career history, then lastly your interests and the bits that make you human and a list of referees or statement saying they are available. The more important your referees are, the more good it will do you.
Gotta run away with my womping stick but will add more later. Hiring people is one of my specialty areas!
George
Agree with most of the above also.
The CV's in the wrong order. You have to write it for the people who are reading it not yourself - they are not trying to SELECT a person, they are trying to DEselect a list of people down to one. Don't give them a reason to throw yours on the trash heap cos it's taking too long to get to anything good. You really got to get that into your head when you put together this important document.
First thing they want to know reasonably quickly is roughly what age and experience you are - so age and most recent/relevant qualification first, then a sentence or paragraph summarising your career to date.
Then your more detailed career history, then lastly your interests and the bits that make you human and a list of referees or statement saying they are available. The more important your referees are, the more good it will do you.
Gotta run away with my womping stick but will add more later. Hiring people is one of my specialty areas!
George
Written by: Doc Lightning talking about Marmite in Kichi's Intro thread
I have several large jars of the stuff. I actually like it... a little. And don't tell anyone I admitted to it. 
SILVER Member
veteran
1,433 posts
Location: 8 days at Cloudbreak, 6 in Perth, Australia
veteran
1,433 posts
Location: 8 days at Cloudbreak, 6 in Perth, Australia
Posted:
Age is NOT important...so many people make the mistake of putting that on the first page of the CV's.
They are not allowed to discrimate on age so you either put it on the last page where it is generally not read or don't put it on at all.
The only country I have found that having a photo on the CV is in England also....so try avoid that if possible.
The first page should have your contact details, a short summary of FIGJAM (but not in first person like me, my, I) then you should put on any proper qulaifications you have (diplomas, certificates, degrees) then a career summary.
The second page should have a summary of what you did in each of the job...point form.
The third page should have an other RELEVANT information, your personal details (DOB if you feel the need to put it in, Licences and at least three hobbies or interests just to personify you a bit).
Right at the bottom of the third page whould be your references listed out.
Do NOT go over three pages unless you work in a very specified industry.
Three pages is a good size. Gives you enough space to spread things out, and explain things enough too.
Age is NOT important...so many people make the mistake of putting that on the first page of the CV's.
They are not allowed to discrimate on age so you either put it on the last page where it is generally not read or don't put it on at all.
The only country I have found that having a photo on the CV is in England also....so try avoid that if possible.
The first page should have your contact details, a short summary of FIGJAM (but not in first person like me, my, I) then you should put on any proper qulaifications you have (diplomas, certificates, degrees) then a career summary.
The second page should have a summary of what you did in each of the job...point form.
The third page should have an other RELEVANT information, your personal details (DOB if you feel the need to put it in, Licences and at least three hobbies or interests just to personify you a bit).
Right at the bottom of the third page whould be your references listed out.
Do NOT go over three pages unless you work in a very specified industry.
Three pages is a good size. Gives you enough space to spread things out, and explain things enough too.
BRONZE Member
Sitting down facing forward . . .
2,387 posts
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
Sitting down facing forward . . .
2,387 posts
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
Posted:
OK Jonny me lad - back from my womping, so here goes my views. These are from several years of reviewing CV's to hire people in the IT world - not the same IT field as yours, but the Engineering side of it so similar enough I feel. And not sure if there's any differences between NZ & UK, hopefully this is the same everywhere.
To elaborate on what I said before, you are trying to stand out for the hirer. The hirer is trying to DEselect his/her stack of CV's down to 3 or 4 stand-outs to come in for an interview. And by the way, since I met you and know a bit about you, I WOULD hire you in an IT/Engineering realm, but from your CV & letter you posted above you wouldn't last more than the half a minute it took me to read them - sorry but I would've DEselected you on the spot (except maybe the Queens Scout bit might have dragged you through a bit - more on that later).
The hirer is working on the principle that everyone responding to the ad has the basic requirements to do the job, so they're looking to confirm this with the first 1/4 of the first page, or see that it's obviously not the case and gain instant DEselection. This is why I said before about age, education/quals and 1 para career/skills summary. I still say age is relevant and I'll explain why - it's true age can not be discriminated against, but age gives the person an idea of experience level because age for the average person is an indication of how far along school/ uni/ years in work track the person is.
OK, say after establishing that in the first 1/4 page you have the right amount of general training & experience to be in with a chance, the hirer is then looking for either points that make you better than the average, or worse than the average [the average mental picture of the person he wants]. If you've got specific skills that he/she want, then you're better than average. If you show negative things (bad grammar, bad attitude etc then you're worse than average and get DEselected.
The hirer is going to spend maybe 5 minutes (if you're lucky) considering your CV and letter and dropping it on one of 3 piles - "No", "maybe" and "definitely". I would guess for any Hi-Tech vacancy there'll have been a lot of applications and so there may be more piles - the "No" might be "hell no" and "probably no", and the "maybe" pile might also be 2. Usually the "definitely" pile is empty unless there is an absolutely perfect candidate who by chance has just exactly the right experience. There usually aren't too many in this camp.
So, you're looking to not be put in the "hell no", "no", or "lower "maybe" pile. You need to make sure the grammar, spelling, and "look" is correct. Don't make it fancy. Don't do anything gimmicky - I once had someone who very cleverly had formed a section of the page one words into the overall shape of the words "you need me" such that looking at the page from 6-10 meters away you could read that. Well, he got DEselected in 2 seconds flat. (Later I thought maybe I had been too harsh and went back and actually read the whole CV - no, I was right - he still got DEselected in the "hell no" pile).
So what are trying to put in to make it into the good pile and get the interview? Evidence of experience that the hirer wants, and more importantly, the right ATTITUDE the hirer wants. Remember I said the hirer assumes that everyone who applies can probably do the job, what he/she really wants to see is the person who has the right attitude because usually, each job requires some company specific or task unique training, what is going to make one person stand out over another is the attitude that will make them fit in with the company culture and fit in with the others in the team. So this is where you need to mix in with each bit of experience, a little bit of attitude. Your scouting is absolutely imperative to talk up here. I know what Queens Scout means but probably a lot of managers in the IT field don't so you need to say WHY that is relevant to them. Only a small % of people get those awards so it shows you are a stayer not a quitter. A hard worker. Someone who rises to a challenge. Someone who doesn't shy away from adversity. Someone who copes well with change. Someone with values. Someone who is very much a team player, but who can also be a leader when required. Someone with initiative. All of these are things a hirer really really wants. (Well, maybe not all hirers, but anyone who doesn't want their staff to have those attributes is not someone I'd want to work for). Talk it up - but not in a waffly way. Use some well chosen words that say all of that in one or 2 sentences.
I usually read the cover letter first and then the CV. The 2 should compliment each other - not repeat each other but they are 2 parts of a whole with a just a little bit of overlap. The job of the cover letter is to set the scene and the CV confirms the skills and experience you have. The letter is the main place to sell your CHARACTER and your ATTITUDE. Usually I liked to see in the letter an acknowledgemnet that the person understands what the job they're applying for is and why their education/training and experience qualifies them to excel in that job - briefly. Then I wanted to see something of the persons character and values that they knew themselves and the personal strengths and aspirations they can bring to the advertised task. And then I wanted to see a little sign that the person had potential BEYOND the advertised task and therefore be better than the average "monkey" for that task. And I wanted to see that in ONE page.
Then I turned to the CV to basically confirm the person had the education, training/experience I expect for someone coming into that advertised role. I wanted to confirm that in 1-2 pages and the last page I wanted to see that the person had a life and interests - for me the mental "bonus" points are things like travel (broadens the mind/shows independance), for HiTech anything that showed intelligence (hobbies like chess, mind puzzles, whatever), any sport/pursuit that showed mental aspects (martial art/endurance etc), and most importantly for Hi-Tech positions, a big bonus of one of the persons hobbies is related to the field of work - so for IT if you run your own server, write programs, building the next super computer etc etc (building a computer at age 10 is something along those lines!).
And lastly I wanted to see that the person had a bunch of people in the industry who were prepared to say nice things about them (referees). I preferred to see names and titles of people rather than just "referee's available on request". As an applicant, if you have some good referee's it is more in your interest to list them than to save them for later - there may not be a later. So list the Managers that know and like you. If you burnt all your bridges with previous managers, that makes it tougher, but have some "important" people on your list and have some good workmates from previous jobs if nothing else, because if you don't have any referees from places that you've worked at, it sounds alarm bells for the hirer that maybe you don't fit in with work places. It's ok to have not gotten on well with the boss at the last place and that's why you left, but if that's the whole pattern for you, it needs a lot of fast talking to get out of. And if you aren't there to talk, your CV has to do it for you...
I could keep going but have probably waffled too much already. Make a take II and I'll probably have more to say!
But really, you can't make a CV/letter for use in every situation because each one should be tailored to the job and company you are applying to. It changes (unless all the jobs are for exactly the same thing which I doubt).
That's a lot of waffle - hope some of it's useful! And
George
OK Jonny me lad - back from my womping, so here goes my views. These are from several years of reviewing CV's to hire people in the IT world - not the same IT field as yours, but the Engineering side of it so similar enough I feel. And not sure if there's any differences between NZ & UK, hopefully this is the same everywhere.
To elaborate on what I said before, you are trying to stand out for the hirer. The hirer is trying to DEselect his/her stack of CV's down to 3 or 4 stand-outs to come in for an interview. And by the way, since I met you and know a bit about you, I WOULD hire you in an IT/Engineering realm, but from your CV & letter you posted above you wouldn't last more than the half a minute it took me to read them - sorry but I would've DEselected you on the spot (except maybe the Queens Scout bit might have dragged you through a bit - more on that later).
The hirer is working on the principle that everyone responding to the ad has the basic requirements to do the job, so they're looking to confirm this with the first 1/4 of the first page, or see that it's obviously not the case and gain instant DEselection. This is why I said before about age, education/quals and 1 para career/skills summary. I still say age is relevant and I'll explain why - it's true age can not be discriminated against, but age gives the person an idea of experience level because age for the average person is an indication of how far along school/ uni/ years in work track the person is.
OK, say after establishing that in the first 1/4 page you have the right amount of general training & experience to be in with a chance, the hirer is then looking for either points that make you better than the average, or worse than the average [the average mental picture of the person he wants]. If you've got specific skills that he/she want, then you're better than average. If you show negative things (bad grammar, bad attitude etc then you're worse than average and get DEselected.
The hirer is going to spend maybe 5 minutes (if you're lucky) considering your CV and letter and dropping it on one of 3 piles - "No", "maybe" and "definitely". I would guess for any Hi-Tech vacancy there'll have been a lot of applications and so there may be more piles - the "No" might be "hell no" and "probably no", and the "maybe" pile might also be 2. Usually the "definitely" pile is empty unless there is an absolutely perfect candidate who by chance has just exactly the right experience. There usually aren't too many in this camp.
So, you're looking to not be put in the "hell no", "no", or "lower "maybe" pile. You need to make sure the grammar, spelling, and "look" is correct. Don't make it fancy. Don't do anything gimmicky - I once had someone who very cleverly had formed a section of the page one words into the overall shape of the words "you need me" such that looking at the page from 6-10 meters away you could read that. Well, he got DEselected in 2 seconds flat. (Later I thought maybe I had been too harsh and went back and actually read the whole CV - no, I was right - he still got DEselected in the "hell no" pile).
So what are trying to put in to make it into the good pile and get the interview? Evidence of experience that the hirer wants, and more importantly, the right ATTITUDE the hirer wants. Remember I said the hirer assumes that everyone who applies can probably do the job, what he/she really wants to see is the person who has the right attitude because usually, each job requires some company specific or task unique training, what is going to make one person stand out over another is the attitude that will make them fit in with the company culture and fit in with the others in the team. So this is where you need to mix in with each bit of experience, a little bit of attitude. Your scouting is absolutely imperative to talk up here. I know what Queens Scout means but probably a lot of managers in the IT field don't so you need to say WHY that is relevant to them. Only a small % of people get those awards so it shows you are a stayer not a quitter. A hard worker. Someone who rises to a challenge. Someone who doesn't shy away from adversity. Someone who copes well with change. Someone with values. Someone who is very much a team player, but who can also be a leader when required. Someone with initiative. All of these are things a hirer really really wants. (Well, maybe not all hirers, but anyone who doesn't want their staff to have those attributes is not someone I'd want to work for). Talk it up - but not in a waffly way. Use some well chosen words that say all of that in one or 2 sentences.
I usually read the cover letter first and then the CV. The 2 should compliment each other - not repeat each other but they are 2 parts of a whole with a just a little bit of overlap. The job of the cover letter is to set the scene and the CV confirms the skills and experience you have. The letter is the main place to sell your CHARACTER and your ATTITUDE. Usually I liked to see in the letter an acknowledgemnet that the person understands what the job they're applying for is and why their education/training and experience qualifies them to excel in that job - briefly. Then I wanted to see something of the persons character and values that they knew themselves and the personal strengths and aspirations they can bring to the advertised task. And then I wanted to see a little sign that the person had potential BEYOND the advertised task and therefore be better than the average "monkey" for that task. And I wanted to see that in ONE page.
Then I turned to the CV to basically confirm the person had the education, training/experience I expect for someone coming into that advertised role. I wanted to confirm that in 1-2 pages and the last page I wanted to see that the person had a life and interests - for me the mental "bonus" points are things like travel (broadens the mind/shows independance), for HiTech anything that showed intelligence (hobbies like chess, mind puzzles, whatever), any sport/pursuit that showed mental aspects (martial art/endurance etc), and most importantly for Hi-Tech positions, a big bonus of one of the persons hobbies is related to the field of work - so for IT if you run your own server, write programs, building the next super computer etc etc (building a computer at age 10 is something along those lines!).
And lastly I wanted to see that the person had a bunch of people in the industry who were prepared to say nice things about them (referees). I preferred to see names and titles of people rather than just "referee's available on request". As an applicant, if you have some good referee's it is more in your interest to list them than to save them for later - there may not be a later. So list the Managers that know and like you. If you burnt all your bridges with previous managers, that makes it tougher, but have some "important" people on your list and have some good workmates from previous jobs if nothing else, because if you don't have any referees from places that you've worked at, it sounds alarm bells for the hirer that maybe you don't fit in with work places. It's ok to have not gotten on well with the boss at the last place and that's why you left, but if that's the whole pattern for you, it needs a lot of fast talking to get out of. And if you aren't there to talk, your CV has to do it for you...
I could keep going but have probably waffled too much already. Make a take II and I'll probably have more to say!
But really, you can't make a CV/letter for use in every situation because each one should be tailored to the job and company you are applying to. It changes (unless all the jobs are for exactly the same thing which I doubt).
That's a lot of waffle - hope some of it's useful! And
George
Written by: Doc Lightning talking about Marmite in Kichi's Intro thread
I have several large jars of the stuff. I actually like it... a little. And don't tell anyone I admitted to it.
SILVER Member
veteran
1,237 posts
Location: Oxfordshire, United Kingdom
veteran
1,237 posts
Location: Oxfordshire, United Kingdom
Posted:
All very interesting.. Might find this very useful, though I'm mostly trying to figure out HTF I can get a NON IT job after 7 years floating about that industry, bit sick of companies selling up or closing down, or the rest of the dark side of IT.
All very interesting.. Might find this very useful, though I'm mostly trying to figure out HTF I can get a NON IT job after 7 years floating about that industry, bit sick of companies selling up or closing down, or the rest of the dark side of IT.
Blinded by Hyperlights, please donate generously
GOLD Member
ZORT!
3,045 posts
Location: Brisbane, Australia
ZORT!
3,045 posts
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posted:
hey GeorgeMC - how come you have so much time to write all that!
you should go and get a job!
hey GeorgeMC - how come you have so much time to write all that!
you should go and get a job! "Here kitty kitty...." - Schroedinger.
GOLD Member
HoP's Barman. Trapped aged 6 months
4,437 posts
Location: Staines, United Kingdom
HoP's Barman. Trapped aged 6 months
4,437 posts
Location: Staines, United Kingdom
Posted:
Hey Jon, I emailed youa copy of my c.v. which has gone through a rigorous trial and error stage and been seen by quite a few industry related people who have helped me and now feel it's pretty good. Have a look.
One thing I'd say is put your stats then work experience first. Then later talk about education & interests. They want to see if you'd be good at the job first then if they'd enjoy having you there second.
Hey Jon, I emailed youa copy of my c.v. which has gone through a rigorous trial and error stage and been seen by quite a few industry related people who have helped me and now feel it's pretty good. Have a look.
One thing I'd say is put your stats then work experience first. Then later talk about education & interests. They want to see if you'd be good at the job first then if they'd enjoy having you there second.
An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind
Give a man a fish and he'll eat 4 a day hit a man with a brick and you can have all his fish and his wife
"Will's to pretty for prison" - Simian
SILVER Member
15,417 posts
Location: South Wales
15,417 posts
Location: South Wales
Posted:
woah!
What a fantastic response! Many, many thanks everyone
I have shortened and altered bits of it, reduced the font, widened the margins and its now down to two pages. I have hopefully made it less chatty too. I also like my use of "ruthless efficiency"
I must say, I have never agreed with the "keep it to a page" rule either, it never seemed like enough space to say everything.
Here is the new version. It is also available at the top of the page in the first post too.
Once again, thanks for all the help guys and girls, it really is most appreciated!
woah!
What a fantastic response! Many, many thanks everyone
I have shortened and altered bits of it, reduced the font, widened the margins and its now down to two pages. I have hopefully made it less chatty too. I also like my use of "ruthless efficiency"
I must say, I have never agreed with the "keep it to a page" rule either, it never seemed like enough space to say everything.
Here is the new version. It is also available at the top of the page in the first post too.
Once again, thanks for all the help guys and girls, it really is most appreciated!
BRONZE Member
Sitting down facing forward . . .
2,387 posts
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
Sitting down facing forward . . .
2,387 posts
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
Posted:
I have a job, but Malcolm lets me out sometimes!!
On the job now Jon, so no time to review the MkII now - will do so tonight.
Written by: Dentrassi
hey GeorgeMC - how come you have so much time to write all that!
I have a job, but Malcolm lets me out sometimes!! On the job now Jon, so no time to review the MkII now - will do so tonight.
Written by: Doc Lightning talking about Marmite in Kichi's Intro thread
I have several large jars of the stuff. I actually like it... a little. And don't tell anyone I admitted to it.
SILVER Member
15,417 posts
Location: South Wales
15,417 posts
Location: South Wales
Posted:
Isnt that a bit distracting for all the other HOP staff in the office?
Written by: Georgemc
On the job now Jon
Isnt that a bit distracting for all the other HOP staff in the office?
BRONZE Member
Sitting down facing forward . . .
2,387 posts
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
Sitting down facing forward . . .
2,387 posts
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
Posted:
I've gone right off you now
Why is that every time I say something, someone has to turn it around into smut??
*sobs uncontrollably in a rather dark corner*
Mr UCOF, sir (& I use the term very loosely), I have no idea what Skully see's in you - it obviously isn't the money from your other thread, and it can't be that scrawny body I've seen, so... ???
Anyway, I'm gonna remain professional and address your latest attempt at a CV. I didn't think you'd changed it actually, so it still needs some more work. Gonna switch to PM and/or e-mail though now we've gotten past the general bits that everyone would benefit from.
Oh, except for one other comment (well 2) -
1) someone made a comment about nice paper for the CV - don't worry about it. Most of the time you're going to be e-mailing your CV (especially for an IT job), so you have no control over the paper
2) because of the above, you should output your CV & letter in PDF format. That way you guarantee that the receiver will see the page just as you intended it to look rather than with their fonts, para styles etc. For example, in your one, I get some funny control characters in it and also the lines in the table don't all line up how you intended it I'm sure. (I viewed it in Wordpad but maybe you wrote it in Word)
Don't have Acrobat Writer?? No problem - there's several "Print to pdf" programmes out there for free (Acrobat Forge I think is the one I use)...
Righto, switching to e-mail/PM
George
Written by: UnbearablyColdOrFreezing
Isnt that a bit distracting for all the other HOP staff in the office?
I've gone right off you now
Why is that every time I say something, someone has to turn it around into smut??
*sobs uncontrollably in a rather dark corner*
Mr UCOF, sir (& I use the term very loosely), I have no idea what Skully see's in you - it obviously isn't the money from your other thread, and it can't be that scrawny body I've seen, so... ???
Anyway, I'm gonna remain professional and address your latest attempt at a CV. I didn't think you'd changed it actually, so it still needs some more work. Gonna switch to PM and/or e-mail though now we've gotten past the general bits that everyone would benefit from.
Oh, except for one other comment (well 2) -
1) someone made a comment about nice paper for the CV - don't worry about it. Most of the time you're going to be e-mailing your CV (especially for an IT job), so you have no control over the paper
2) because of the above, you should output your CV & letter in PDF format. That way you guarantee that the receiver will see the page just as you intended it to look rather than with their fonts, para styles etc. For example, in your one, I get some funny control characters in it and also the lines in the table don't all line up how you intended it I'm sure. (I viewed it in Wordpad but maybe you wrote it in Word)
Don't have Acrobat Writer?? No problem - there's several "Print to pdf" programmes out there for free (Acrobat Forge I think is the one I use)...
Righto, switching to e-mail/PM
George
Written by: Doc Lightning talking about Marmite in Kichi's Intro thread
I have several large jars of the stuff. I actually like it... a little. And don't tell anyone I admitted to it.
BRONZE Member
HOP librarian
1,841 posts
Location: Prague, Czech. Republic
HOP librarian
1,841 posts
Location: Prague, Czech. Republic
Posted:
I'm in the same position like you Jonathan
at the moment.
Here's mine, you can compare:
[editting..]
success!
:R
I'm in the same position like you Jonathan
at the moment.
Here's mine, you can compare:
[editting..]
success!
:R
POI THEO(R)IST
BRONZE Member
Sitting down facing forward . . .
2,387 posts
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
Sitting down facing forward . . .
2,387 posts
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
Posted:
Hi Richee - a couple of suggestions for you:
1) take your personal contact details out of there quick! (unless you want spammers and stalkers for friends)!
2) you should list the previous work experience in reverse chronological order - i.e. most recent at the top. The most recent are the most relevant so should be the first ones the hirer reads about.
3) you should explain why you were terminated (downsizing or whatever). If not explained, it could easily be interpreted that you were fired because of your work ethic/performance not being acceptable.
4) for each work experience role you should include a brief "duties included ..." paragraph.
Good luck
George
Hi Richee - a couple of suggestions for you:
1) take your personal contact details out of there quick! (unless you want spammers and stalkers for friends)!
2) you should list the previous work experience in reverse chronological order - i.e. most recent at the top. The most recent are the most relevant so should be the first ones the hirer reads about.
3) you should explain why you were terminated (downsizing or whatever). If not explained, it could easily be interpreted that you were fired because of your work ethic/performance not being acceptable.
4) for each work experience role you should include a brief "duties included ..." paragraph.
Good luck
George
Written by: Doc Lightning talking about Marmite in Kichi's Intro thread
I have several large jars of the stuff. I actually like it... a little. And don't tell anyone I admitted to it.
GOLD Member
Pirate Pixie Crew Captain
8,428 posts
Location: Wales
Pirate Pixie Crew Captain
8,428 posts
Location: Wales
Posted:
Hmmm...what do I see in UCoF?.... Well, just how long have you got?
He is kind, gentle, helpful, generous, genuine, honest, loving, caring, understanding, cute, talented, modest, toned, silly, fun, exciting, insouciant, excitable, unpredictable, gorgeous, thin, sunny, courteous, .... I would go on but it would take the thread a wee bit off topic and make some of the other members of HoP feel inadequate and I'd hate to do that
Written by: georgemc
Mr UCOF, sir (& I use the term very loosely), I have no idea what Skully see's in you - it obviously isn't the money from your other thread, and it can't be that scrawny body I've seen, so... ???
Hmmm...what do I see in UCoF?.... Well, just how long have you got?
He is kind, gentle, helpful, generous, genuine, honest, loving, caring, understanding, cute, talented, modest, toned, silly, fun, exciting, insouciant, excitable, unpredictable, gorgeous, thin, sunny, courteous, .... I would go on but it would take the thread a wee bit off topic and make some of the other members of HoP feel inadequate and I'd hate to do that
Feed me Chocolate!!! Feed me NOW!
BRONZE Member
Sitting down facing forward . . .
2,387 posts
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
Sitting down facing forward . . .
2,387 posts
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
Posted:
(Pssst, Skully - don't tell Jonny, but I know that - you need to get him to put it all in his CV so that people will want to give him a job!)
(Pssst, Skully - don't tell Jonny, but I know that - you need to get him to put it all in his CV so that people will want to give him a job!)
Written by: Doc Lightning talking about Marmite in Kichi's Intro thread
I have several large jars of the stuff. I actually like it... a little. And don't tell anyone I admitted to it.
SILVER Member
15,417 posts
Location: South Wales
15,417 posts
Location: South Wales
Posted:
My new CV now reads:
Dear potential employer,
Whatever the job im applying for is, Id be fantastic at.
Im kind, gentle, helpful, generous, genuine, honest, loving, caring, understanding, cute, talented, modest, toned, silly, fun, exciting, insouciant, excitable, unpredictable, gorgeous, thin, sunny and courteous.
If you dont hire me, you should be put in a mental hospital.
What do you reckon?
My new CV now reads:
Dear potential employer,
Whatever the job im applying for is, Id be fantastic at.
Im kind, gentle, helpful, generous, genuine, honest, loving, caring, understanding, cute, talented, modest, toned, silly, fun, exciting, insouciant, excitable, unpredictable, gorgeous, thin, sunny and courteous.
If you dont hire me, you should be put in a mental hospital.
What do you reckon?
BRONZE Member
Sitting down facing forward . . .
2,387 posts
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
Sitting down facing forward . . .
2,387 posts
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
Posted:
Does it for me mate! Want a job?
Does it for me mate! Want a job?
Written by: Doc Lightning talking about Marmite in Kichi's Intro thread
I have several large jars of the stuff. I actually like it... a little. And don't tell anyone I admitted to it.
SILVER Member
15,417 posts
Location: South Wales
15,417 posts
Location: South Wales
Posted:
oooh.. ta
oooh.. ta
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