Forums > Social Discussion > Does the US Army Deserve Praise?
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Carpal \'Tunnel
2,666 posts
Location: Preston, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
2,666 posts
Location: Preston, United Kingdom
Posted:
I was in another forum and I saw this message..
The US army is one of the most imoral uncareing and reckless armys around currently, they arnt all like that but it seems somewhere along the way the content control seems to have been skipped by the men in charge.
So I put in this post
Then this guy posts this...
To which I posted after much thought
God bless america, land of the free, land of the american dream, land of the smug! Until someone says something they dont like and they want to erase it, I guess there's a little Richard Nixon in all of them.
I hope this turns into a worthwhile post I think ive gone and missed 'The woman Who Thinks Like a Cow' because of it...dag-namit!
I was in another forum and I saw this message..
Written by:
BAGHDAD, Iraq — Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the Al Qaeda in Iraq leader who led a brutal insurgency that included homicide bombings, kidnappings and beheadings, was killed in an airstrike on a building north of Baghdad, U.S. and Iraqi officials announced Thursday.
The man whose been responsible for killing American Soldiers and the deaths of untold thousands of Iraqi civilians just ate 1000lbs of bombs, which was oh so graciously delivered to him by one of our F-16's.
Keep up the good fight guys. The world is a safer place today.
The US army is one of the most imoral uncareing and reckless armys around currently, they arnt all like that but it seems somewhere along the way the content control seems to have been skipped by the men in charge.
So I put in this post
Written by:
Now if we could just stop jar heads killing civilians, or shooting british troops. There was this time these geniouse americans were orderd to wait for british troops to relieve them and told to shoot anyone who comes near them until the british arrive. The english arrive in english vehicles, at the correct time, on the planned route, broadcasting over the radio announcing there approach. So what do the american troops do? Start shooting the British, huzah!
Then this guy posts this...
Written by:
On the interest of keeping things civil, I'll ask you to remove that, or have a DM do so, and we'll forget it was ever there.
This was made to honor those who are over there making the sacrifice that to few are willing to make. American, British, Australian, Japanese, and the rest of those in the coalition.
Not to attack them
To which I posted after much thought
Written by:
Wouldnt that be un-constitutional?
God bless america, land of the free, land of the american dream, land of the smug! Until someone says something they dont like and they want to erase it, I guess there's a little Richard Nixon in all of them.
I hope this turns into a worthwhile post I think ive gone and missed 'The woman Who Thinks Like a Cow' because of it...dag-namit!
Chief adviser to the Pharaoh, in one very snazzy mutli-coloured coat
'Time goes by so slowly for those who wait...' - Whatever Happend To Baby Madonna?
SILVER Member
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
Posted:
yep, us, *they* can all die a gruesome death.
life as we know it.
Written by: patriach
make the world a better place for us
yep, us, *they* can all die a gruesome death.
life as we know it.
"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"
jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley
enthusiast
242 posts
Location: L.O.N.D.O.N.
242 posts
Location: L.O.N.D.O.N.
Posted:
(Taking this discussion to mean praise of 'the coalition of the willing' military)
Praise? What an odd term to use for death and destruction.
Actually I think it is an offensive term to all of those of have died in a conflict that is not meeting any of the suggested objectives (and you can take a wide pick here).
People sign up for the military for a wide range of reasons and with different degrees of understanding of the current purpose of military action in the world today.
I feel incredibly sorry for those who truely thought that they would be fighting for liberty and justice; these are empty terms that have been burnt in the fire of profit and power.
As for those who signed up through no other opportunity in their life. Well they are the product of a twisted system of society that brutalises the disadvantaged for the benefit of the powerful. When the disadvantaged stand up and say no - they are criminalised.
I give praise to those who say no to the end of liberty and justice, no to this evil system of social disadvantage, and risk inprisonment. I praise the conscientous objectors.
I also praise those who are living a hell in hot armed vehicles, led by idiots, surrounded by hatred, yet doing their job to the best of their abilities (ie not killing but protecting). Long may they prevail and in the future tell us what REALLY happened on the streets of Iraq and who REALLY commited the crimes, so we all can know the brutality and pain that conflict brings.
War creates villians and heroes. Its just very difficult to know who is which. To paint all one side as heroes and the other as villians is a retreat into childish stories of 'just' wars. Lets live in the realism of the true impact of war.
Oh and specifically on the subject of Mister Al Z; he was a nobody till the the coalition made him a star. The coalition is killing the products of its own brutality. To say this is what it should do misunderstands that it shouldn't be creating such monsters in the first place
(Taking this discussion to mean praise of 'the coalition of the willing' military)
Praise? What an odd term to use for death and destruction.
Actually I think it is an offensive term to all of those of have died in a conflict that is not meeting any of the suggested objectives (and you can take a wide pick here).
People sign up for the military for a wide range of reasons and with different degrees of understanding of the current purpose of military action in the world today.
I feel incredibly sorry for those who truely thought that they would be fighting for liberty and justice; these are empty terms that have been burnt in the fire of profit and power.
As for those who signed up through no other opportunity in their life. Well they are the product of a twisted system of society that brutalises the disadvantaged for the benefit of the powerful. When the disadvantaged stand up and say no - they are criminalised.
I give praise to those who say no to the end of liberty and justice, no to this evil system of social disadvantage, and risk inprisonment. I praise the conscientous objectors.
I also praise those who are living a hell in hot armed vehicles, led by idiots, surrounded by hatred, yet doing their job to the best of their abilities (ie not killing but protecting). Long may they prevail and in the future tell us what REALLY happened on the streets of Iraq and who REALLY commited the crimes, so we all can know the brutality and pain that conflict brings.
War creates villians and heroes. Its just very difficult to know who is which. To paint all one side as heroes and the other as villians is a retreat into childish stories of 'just' wars. Lets live in the realism of the true impact of war.
Oh and specifically on the subject of Mister Al Z; he was a nobody till the the coalition made him a star. The coalition is killing the products of its own brutality. To say this is what it should do misunderstands that it shouldn't be creating such monsters in the first place
BRONZE Member
wandering thru the woods of WI
3,556 posts
Location: Wisconsin, USA
wandering thru the woods of WI
3,556 posts
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posted:
it's all part of a plan to tear the christian world apart one country at a time
it's all part of a plan to tear the christian world apart one country at a time
Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed
NYC
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Posted:
"Christian world?" Is that where you live? I've never been there.
I'm surprised that this conversation has not focused on "Does the US army deserve praise for doing the job they were assigned to do?" and is focusing more on "Does the job that the US army was assigned deserve praise?"
Because those are two very different things to me.
"Christian world?" Is that where you live? I've never been there.
I'm surprised that this conversation has not focused on "Does the US army deserve praise for doing the job they were assigned to do?" and is focusing more on "Does the job that the US army was assigned deserve praise?"
Because those are two very different things to me.
Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]
BRONZE Member
wandering thru the woods of WI
3,556 posts
Location: Wisconsin, USA
wandering thru the woods of WI
3,556 posts
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posted:
no, that is certianly not how I see it, even on here when most of us are supposed to be friends and things of that nature, but that is how some forces see it. Of course that is a supposition and you or someone else will tell me that I have simply bought into the Bush propaganda.
And as I have said before, while there are some bad apples in every barrel, this barrel is definitely deserving of praise
no, that is certianly not how I see it, even on here when most of us are supposed to be friends and things of that nature, but that is how some forces see it. Of course that is a supposition and you or someone else will tell me that I have simply bought into the Bush propaganda.
And as I have said before, while there are some bad apples in every barrel, this barrel is definitely deserving of praise
Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed
GOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
Pele, I think you have a good point. In most countries people who enlist in the military are prepared to go to war and fight. This is obviously not the case in America.
Pele, I think you have a good point. In most countries people who enlist in the military are prepared to go to war and fight. This is obviously not the case in America.
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
SILVER Member
I make my own people.
607 posts
Location: Nashville, Tennessee, USA
I make my own people.
607 posts
Location: Nashville, Tennessee, USA
Posted:
I think that in America, people who join the military also understand that the purpose is to go to war and fight.
Pele asked "why are people not running to enlist." Of course... they are. They did it right after 9/11 when they knew that we were preparing to go to war, and the military is still meeting it's recruiting goals. Whatever problems we have in winning wars, it is not for a lack of troops. We even have spares that we are sending to help the border patrol at the mexican border.
If we run out of soldiers, you will see Bush step up and call for volunteers. If that doesn't work, we will do what we did with previous wars: institute a draft. So far, though, the only person to suggest a draft was a democrat, who voted against his own bill. I don't remember what his point was, but I guess one thing it shows is that we have enough soldiers to fight the fight.
I suppose there are people out there that never thought to make the connection between "joining the military" and "being sent to fight in a war." Perhaps they joined in order to get an education. It would seem now that part of that education would be "what a military does."
I think that in America, people who join the military also understand that the purpose is to go to war and fight.
Pele asked "why are people not running to enlist." Of course... they are. They did it right after 9/11 when they knew that we were preparing to go to war, and the military is still meeting it's recruiting goals. Whatever problems we have in winning wars, it is not for a lack of troops. We even have spares that we are sending to help the border patrol at the mexican border.
If we run out of soldiers, you will see Bush step up and call for volunteers. If that doesn't work, we will do what we did with previous wars: institute a draft. So far, though, the only person to suggest a draft was a democrat, who voted against his own bill. I don't remember what his point was, but I guess one thing it shows is that we have enough soldiers to fight the fight.
I suppose there are people out there that never thought to make the connection between "joining the military" and "being sent to fight in a war." Perhaps they joined in order to get an education. It would seem now that part of that education would be "what a military does."
BRONZE Member
wandering thru the woods of WI
3,556 posts
Location: Wisconsin, USA
wandering thru the woods of WI
3,556 posts
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posted:
I do not think it will come to a draft
why are people not running to enlist, because we are soft and spoiled
We have met most of the quotas though and my military friends plan on reinlisting, even those who have been to Iraq
I do not think it will come to a draft
why are people not running to enlist, because we are soft and spoiled
We have met most of the quotas though and my military friends plan on reinlisting, even those who have been to Iraq
Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed
SILVER Member
currently mending
493 posts
Location: Bristol, New Zealand
currently mending
493 posts
Location: Bristol, New Zealand
Posted:
[quote ] written by the wibbler
If americans had any idea how many people they have killed, tortured and suppressed for monetary gain over the years then i think you would realise that these people aren't 'terrorists', they are 'reactionaries'.
You pushed them, you bullied them, you killed them. Now they want to kill you in return.
not forgetting in the case of both Osama, Saddam and their respective followers
you paid them, you trained them, you armed them
No they expect to fight. They expect to kill. They just dont expect to suffer any casualties in return. It's the central thrust of the RMA (revolution in military affairs). Its where the notion of a clean war, a just war (a concept recnetly resurrected, it was hugely popular around the time of the crusades but subsequently fell out of fashion after WW1), the surgical strike and smart weapons come from. Thus Gulf war 1 was suggested by the US media to be akin to a surgeon removing a cancerous growth from its ailing patient, while US led forces were responsible for the deaths of over a quarter of a million Iraqi civillians. Its keyhole surgey Hiroshima style.
War in the conventional sense saw two armed groups of men fight it out. (Post)modern warfare sees the terrorist/axis of evil/insert other generic term designating the enemy as 'evil' forces subject to severe aerial bombardment before overwhelming ground force is sent to mop up any units which remain alive.
Jean Baudrillard famously wrote the the first gulf war did not happen... Statistically a US soldier in Iraq was less likely to be killed (not just die of natural causes- but be killed) than a US citizen in Southern California. In Gulf War 2 the Iraqi army possesed no weapons capable of penetrating the armour of the British Challenger Tank (which is more heavily armoured than the US m1-Abrams). Its occupants are pretty much guarenteed safety.
American intellectual Noam Chomsky disagreed with serveral points of Baudrillard's analysis but agreed to call the Military interventions 'war' was misleading. Appropriately he suggested slaughter as a more apt replacement.
[quote ] written by the wibbler
If americans had any idea how many people they have killed, tortured and suppressed for monetary gain over the years then i think you would realise that these people aren't 'terrorists', they are 'reactionaries'.
You pushed them, you bullied them, you killed them. Now they want to kill you in return.
not forgetting in the case of both Osama, Saddam and their respective followers
you paid them, you trained them, you armed them
Written by:
written by Stone
Pele, I think you have a good point. In most countries people who enlist in the military are prepared to go to war and fight. This is obviously not the case in America.
No they expect to fight. They expect to kill. They just dont expect to suffer any casualties in return. It's the central thrust of the RMA (revolution in military affairs). Its where the notion of a clean war, a just war (a concept recnetly resurrected, it was hugely popular around the time of the crusades but subsequently fell out of fashion after WW1), the surgical strike and smart weapons come from. Thus Gulf war 1 was suggested by the US media to be akin to a surgeon removing a cancerous growth from its ailing patient, while US led forces were responsible for the deaths of over a quarter of a million Iraqi civillians. Its keyhole surgey Hiroshima style.
War in the conventional sense saw two armed groups of men fight it out. (Post)modern warfare sees the terrorist/axis of evil/insert other generic term designating the enemy as 'evil' forces subject to severe aerial bombardment before overwhelming ground force is sent to mop up any units which remain alive.
Jean Baudrillard famously wrote the the first gulf war did not happen... Statistically a US soldier in Iraq was less likely to be killed (not just die of natural causes- but be killed) than a US citizen in Southern California. In Gulf War 2 the Iraqi army possesed no weapons capable of penetrating the armour of the British Challenger Tank (which is more heavily armoured than the US m1-Abrams). Its occupants are pretty much guarenteed safety.
American intellectual Noam Chomsky disagreed with serveral points of Baudrillard's analysis but agreed to call the Military interventions 'war' was misleading. Appropriately he suggested slaughter as a more apt replacement.
He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.
Nietzsche
Carpal \'Tunnel
7,193 posts
Location: in the trees
7,193 posts
Location: in the trees
Posted:
the american army deserves praise.........................for taking numb nuts like this off our streets
the american army deserves praise.........................for taking numb nuts like this off our streets
SILVER Member
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
Posted:
quote:ravehead] for taking numb nuts like this off our streets
i didnt know norfolk was part of the US?
*nods* its not war unless both sides have armies.
quote:ravehead] for taking numb nuts like this off our streets
i didnt know norfolk was part of the US?
Written by: dream
Appropriately he suggested slaughter as a more apt replacement.
*nods* its not war unless both sides have armies.
"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"
jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley
Carpal \'Tunnel
7,193 posts
Location: in the trees
7,193 posts
Location: in the trees
Posted:
yeah................the yanks stole loads of british town/city names off us brits
yeah................the yanks stole loads of british town/city names off us brits
GOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
I agree dream, “They expect to fight. They expect to kill. They just don’t expect to suffer any casualties in return.” Then I think we disagree, because my interpretation of "not expecting any casualties" would be something along the line that America constantly underestimates their enemy. As was the case in Vietnam.
I agree dream, “They expect to fight. They expect to kill. They just don’t expect to suffer any casualties in return.” Then I think we disagree, because my interpretation of "not expecting any casualties" would be something along the line that America constantly underestimates their enemy. As was the case in Vietnam.
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
SILVER Member
currently mending
493 posts
Location: Bristol, New Zealand
currently mending
493 posts
Location: Bristol, New Zealand
Posted:
The point of the RMA is that is designed to ensure that the US doesn't suffer another vietnam.
Another military venture halfway across the globe which saw over 50 000 american corpses come back would most likely see the US public refuse to fund and partake in the continuation of the aggressive foreign policy they have embarked on post ww2.
The point of the RMA is that is designed to ensure that the US doesn't suffer another vietnam.
Another military venture halfway across the globe which saw over 50 000 american corpses come back would most likely see the US public refuse to fund and partake in the continuation of the aggressive foreign policy they have embarked on post ww2.
He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.
Nietzsche
GOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
I know. I don’t think things have changed though. Especially the bit about not expecting anyone to fire back at them.
I know. I don’t think things have changed though. Especially the bit about not expecting anyone to fire back at them.
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
NYC
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Posted:
I think the troops on the ground are well prepared for casualties. Every soldier I've spoken to that's been to Iraq has said that they were well aware of the danger they were in.
I still think you guys are lumping together the policy making politicians with the guys on the ground. [Frankly, I'm surprised. I think THAT is more reminiscent of Vietnam than what's actually happening on the ground.]
I absolutely do not think that the "guys on the ground" are underestimating their enemy. I think the politicians are.
I do not think the guys on the ground deserve any blame for the job they were assigned to do. 99.9% are doing the job their politicians ordered them to. I find it strange in such a liberal group that the blame isn't resting squarely on the shoulders of the rich white guys who are calling the shots.
And wibbler, I think your sypathy for terrorists is a bit oversimplified. If you're going to denounce killing, torturing and supression, you gotta do it on both sides.
Written by: dream
No they expect to fight. They expect to kill. They just dont expect to suffer any casualties in return.
I think the troops on the ground are well prepared for casualties. Every soldier I've spoken to that's been to Iraq has said that they were well aware of the danger they were in.
I still think you guys are lumping together the policy making politicians with the guys on the ground. [Frankly, I'm surprised. I think THAT is more reminiscent of Vietnam than what's actually happening on the ground.]
I absolutely do not think that the "guys on the ground" are underestimating their enemy. I think the politicians are.
I do not think the guys on the ground deserve any blame for the job they were assigned to do. 99.9% are doing the job their politicians ordered them to. I find it strange in such a liberal group that the blame isn't resting squarely on the shoulders of the rich white guys who are calling the shots.
And wibbler, I think your sypathy for terrorists is a bit oversimplified. If you're going to denounce killing, torturing and supression, you gotta do it on both sides.
Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]
enthusiast
255 posts
Location: Melbourne - home of pirates
255 posts
Location: Melbourne - home of pirates
Posted:
For me, the war in Iraq is a terrible waste.
Of money, of youth, of life, of hope.
The decisions made by generals in the armed forces may be carried out by the poor shmucks on the ground, but it doesn't absolve them from blame.
The armed forces that carry out the orders are legally obliged to do so. That being said, it was a choice on their part to join the armed forces, for whatever reason. When you join any kind of army you are initiated, sworn in, whatever. You make the choice to follow orders over following your own ethics. You might have all sorts of reasons, but essentially, you choose to sell out your individuality to protect whatever qualifies as "the national interest" at any point in time.
Do the armed forces deserve praise for peacekeeping work (such as the Australian forces in East Timor at the moment)? I believe so.
But when the hive-mind of the military sets itself to harm civilians (without forgetting that civilians weren't the target here), I don't believe, on the whole, that they do.
For me, the war in Iraq is a terrible waste.
Of money, of youth, of life, of hope.
The decisions made by generals in the armed forces may be carried out by the poor shmucks on the ground, but it doesn't absolve them from blame.
The armed forces that carry out the orders are legally obliged to do so. That being said, it was a choice on their part to join the armed forces, for whatever reason. When you join any kind of army you are initiated, sworn in, whatever. You make the choice to follow orders over following your own ethics. You might have all sorts of reasons, but essentially, you choose to sell out your individuality to protect whatever qualifies as "the national interest" at any point in time.
Do the armed forces deserve praise for peacekeeping work (such as the Australian forces in East Timor at the moment)? I believe so.
But when the hive-mind of the military sets itself to harm civilians (without forgetting that civilians weren't the target here), I don't believe, on the whole, that they do.
"You've gone from Loey the Wonder Lesbian to everyone wondering if you are a lesbian." - Shadowman
Yesterday is yesterday. If we try to recapture it, we will only lose tomorrow.
BRONZE Member
Pooh-Bah
1,762 posts
Location: York University, United Kingdom
Pooh-Bah
1,762 posts
Location: York University, United Kingdom
Posted:
To my mind, there's 2 problems around the "War" and "killing civilians" bit.
1. Any terrorist/insurgent or whatever can very easily shoot someone, jump over a wall, drop his gun and he's a civilian. This makes it almost impossible to fight a war against them. You have no clear enemy or target, so you don't know who to shoot. You on the other hand, make a nice big target in your APC.
2. There is clear evidence of soldiers (mainly americans) executing/torturing/indiscriminantly killing civilians. This is not acceptable. Point 1 aside, there is no excuse for this lack of professional soldiering. You only kill people who you *know* beyond a shadow of a doubt are armed and dangerous. Anyone else you may detain and question (civilly) but not shoot.
I'm aware the people who shoot civilians are in the minority, but they are there.
Also regarding:
I have no idea why anyone would ever do this. It defies logic. It follows the reasoning that "If you're in the majority, you must be right" which is, of course, nonsense. On the other hand it's the basis of democracy, and that's what we want for the entire world, right? Right.
They weren't assigned. They volunteered. Anyone who volunteers to go somewhere and kill someone who they've never met because some "rich white guys" tell them to forfeits my sympathy.
To my mind, there's 2 problems around the "War" and "killing civilians" bit.
1. Any terrorist/insurgent or whatever can very easily shoot someone, jump over a wall, drop his gun and he's a civilian. This makes it almost impossible to fight a war against them. You have no clear enemy or target, so you don't know who to shoot. You on the other hand, make a nice big target in your APC.
2. There is clear evidence of soldiers (mainly americans) executing/torturing/indiscriminantly killing civilians. This is not acceptable. Point 1 aside, there is no excuse for this lack of professional soldiering. You only kill people who you *know* beyond a shadow of a doubt are armed and dangerous. Anyone else you may detain and question (civilly) but not shoot.
I'm aware the people who shoot civilians are in the minority, but they are there.
Also regarding:
Written by: wonderloey
You make the choice to follow orders over following your own ethics. You might have all sorts of reasons, but essentially, you choose to sell out your individuality to protect whatever qualifies as "the national interest" at any point in time.
I have no idea why anyone would ever do this. It defies logic. It follows the reasoning that "If you're in the majority, you must be right" which is, of course, nonsense. On the other hand it's the basis of democracy, and that's what we want for the entire world, right? Right.
Written by: NYC
I do not think the guys on the ground deserve any blame for the job they were assigned to do.
They weren't assigned. They volunteered. Anyone who volunteers to go somewhere and kill someone who they've never met because some "rich white guys" tell them to forfeits my sympathy.
After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
SILVER Member
currently mending
493 posts
Location: Bristol, New Zealand
currently mending
493 posts
Location: Bristol, New Zealand
Posted:
the iraq war - the invasion of Iraq which ended with President Bush's declaration of the end of major combat operations on May 1 2003 - saw the deaths of 114 US soldiers
the occupation of iraq - ongoing - has seen the deaths of about 2367 US soldiers
The RMA covers fighting wars against something approaching a conventional army. It has been shown to be fairly ineffective at supplying answers as to how to conduct an effective military occupation of a country while fighting multiple networks of hostile natives who are often hostile to each other in addtion to the occupation.
Before someone claims that the US is fighting foreign insurgents, 95% of insurgent fighters the US army has arrested have been Iraqi. The US army estimates that no more than 10% of the insurgents are foreign 'professional terrorists'. And those that are present have only become so after the US invasion... Precisely to fight the infidel invaders of Muslim land.
Written by:
written by NYC
I think the troops on the ground are well prepared for casualties. Every soldier I've spoken to that's been to Iraq has said that they were well aware of the danger they were in.
the iraq war - the invasion of Iraq which ended with President Bush's declaration of the end of major combat operations on May 1 2003 - saw the deaths of 114 US soldiers
the occupation of iraq - ongoing - has seen the deaths of about 2367 US soldiers
The RMA covers fighting wars against something approaching a conventional army. It has been shown to be fairly ineffective at supplying answers as to how to conduct an effective military occupation of a country while fighting multiple networks of hostile natives who are often hostile to each other in addtion to the occupation.
Before someone claims that the US is fighting foreign insurgents, 95% of insurgent fighters the US army has arrested have been Iraqi. The US army estimates that no more than 10% of the insurgents are foreign 'professional terrorists'. And those that are present have only become so after the US invasion... Precisely to fight the infidel invaders of Muslim land.
He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.
Nietzsche
BRONZE Member
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
Posted:
Not true.
They didn't "volunteer". They were hired. It is a paid position that you apply for. I know people who were turned down by the military too. They get paid. It is a job/career, not a volunteer thing.
And, for example, my friend signed up to learn engineering and get college money. He is driving a tank now.
Another friend signed up so that he could learn languages and get money for international law. They told him what languages he was going to learn (he did not choose) and then he was taught to shoot a gun and sent overseas.
I also know someone who went through infantry training, his entire platoon was asked if anyone could type. He raised his hand and ended up being in the secretarial pool for some administrator somewhere on an aircraft carrier. He expected to have to use his gun, instead he is typing reports somewhere.
It is not as cut and dry as everyone seems to wrack it up to be. The people who sign up do not always expect, or want, to shoot or kill. Several sign up for jobs that they really believe they will not have to do violence in..and the military figures out a way to twist it all around.
I think you all need to also keep in mind that it is not all black and white the way you seem to be thinking.
Written by: Sethis
They weren't assigned. They volunteered. Anyone who volunteers to go somewhere and kill someone who they've never met because some "rich white guys" tell them to forfeits my sympathy.
Not true.
They didn't "volunteer". They were hired. It is a paid position that you apply for. I know people who were turned down by the military too. They get paid. It is a job/career, not a volunteer thing.
And, for example, my friend signed up to learn engineering and get college money. He is driving a tank now.
Another friend signed up so that he could learn languages and get money for international law. They told him what languages he was going to learn (he did not choose) and then he was taught to shoot a gun and sent overseas.
I also know someone who went through infantry training, his entire platoon was asked if anyone could type. He raised his hand and ended up being in the secretarial pool for some administrator somewhere on an aircraft carrier. He expected to have to use his gun, instead he is typing reports somewhere.
It is not as cut and dry as everyone seems to wrack it up to be. The people who sign up do not always expect, or want, to shoot or kill. Several sign up for jobs that they really believe they will not have to do violence in..and the military figures out a way to twist it all around.
I think you all need to also keep in mind that it is not all black and white the way you seem to be thinking.
Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK
NYC
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Posted:
Yay! Somebody addressing the actual issue. I disagree but your arguement makes sense.
And I was using the word assigned to address the individual acts that they were assigned to do. They did volunteer, I certainly understand that. But they did not volunteer to do specific assignments (like "I volunteer to bomb that building over there") they volunteer for the Army in general and then the rich white folks decide what they do... but that's not the issue.
Written by: Sethis
They weren't assigned. They volunteered. Anyone who volunteers to go somewhere and kill someone who they've never met because some "rich white guys" tell them to forfeits my sympathy.
Yay! Somebody addressing the actual issue.
I disagree but your arguement makes sense.And I was using the word assigned to address the individual acts that they were assigned to do. They did volunteer, I certainly understand that. But they did not volunteer to do specific assignments (like "I volunteer to bomb that building over there") they volunteer for the Army in general and then the rich white folks decide what they do... but that's not the issue.
Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]
GOLD Member
old hand
920 posts
Location: New Zealand
old hand
920 posts
Location: New Zealand
Posted:
hmm. I don't quite see your point pele. People sign up to the army for various reasons, i get that part. They get free stuff, like education etc. They sign a piece of paper agreeing to kill people in exchange for money.
erm....
I think they're pretty dumb, they are also murderers and terrorists. I shed no tears when i hear of american soldiers being killed i'm afraid. Only the thousandds upon thousands of completely innocent people the US army kills every month.
Every single person you kill has family, who then become 'terrorists' (reactionaries) who hate america. But of course the governments want that, because that's how our whole economy works. Destabilise an area, sell weapons to both sides, then go in and kill the lot of them. It's just a very clever way to launder money in my opinion, a perfect crime that operates above the law.
hmm. I don't quite see your point pele. People sign up to the army for various reasons, i get that part. They get free stuff, like education etc. They sign a piece of paper agreeing to kill people in exchange for money.
erm....
I think they're pretty dumb, they are also murderers and terrorists. I shed no tears when i hear of american soldiers being killed i'm afraid. Only the thousandds upon thousands of completely innocent people the US army kills every month.
Every single person you kill has family, who then become 'terrorists' (reactionaries) who hate america. But of course the governments want that, because that's how our whole economy works. Destabilise an area, sell weapons to both sides, then go in and kill the lot of them. It's just a very clever way to launder money in my opinion, a perfect crime that operates above the law.
Spherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.
enthusiast
255 posts
Location: Melbourne - home of pirates
255 posts
Location: Melbourne - home of pirates
Posted:
That's like saying I didn't "volunteer" to work in my current job. I have the choice to come to work every day. I signed a contract when I started here, which outlined my responsibilities.
There are plenty of reasons why people would join the armed forces, and Pele's certainly outlined some of them. However, when you sign up to the military, you legally swear to serve for a set period. Its legally binding, and it is a purely voluntary choice to take it. But once you have made that choice, you are stuck with what they give you. That's what army discipline is all about.
Written by: Pele
Not true.
They didn't "volunteer". They were hired. It is a paid position that you apply for. It is a job/career, not a volunteer thing.
That's like saying I didn't "volunteer" to work in my current job. I have the choice to come to work every day. I signed a contract when I started here, which outlined my responsibilities.
There are plenty of reasons why people would join the armed forces, and Pele's certainly outlined some of them. However, when you sign up to the military, you legally swear to serve for a set period. Its legally binding, and it is a purely voluntary choice to take it. But once you have made that choice, you are stuck with what they give you. That's what army discipline is all about.
"You've gone from Loey the Wonder Lesbian to everyone wondering if you are a lesbian." - Shadowman
Yesterday is yesterday. If we try to recapture it, we will only lose tomorrow.
GOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
I agree dream, the American military with it’s RAM or not, can’t cope with guerrilla warfare.
Come on Pele, your acquaintances weren’t forced to join the military. Joining the military was a “volunteer” career choice. Learning to kill people is the main selection criteria. If the people who signed up did not expect, or want, to shoot or kill, then they are naive.
.
I agree dream, the American military with it’s RAM or not, can’t cope with guerrilla warfare.
Come on Pele, your acquaintances weren’t forced to join the military. Joining the military was a “volunteer” career choice. Learning to kill people is the main selection criteria. If the people who signed up did not expect, or want, to shoot or kill, then they are naive.
.
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
BRONZE Member
Member
13 posts
Location: Boise, ID, USA
Member
13 posts
Location: Boise, ID, USA
Posted:
You have to remember, as a member of the U.S. Military, we aren't doing things on our own....we are following the commands of our commander in chief, George Bush. So don't be cruel to the military, blame their commander who put us over there in the first place. I spent my time in Iraq, and as a woman I have a lot more compassion than some of my male counterparts, but I have to tell you....after being shot at multiple times, you get so on edge that anything that moves you feel like you have to shoot it. So I say...Blame the government that sent us over there, blame the government that oversees our training to teach us to kill everything in our paths, but please don't blame us soldiers, we are just innocents to, obeying our commanders who are obeying the GOVERNMENT
You have to remember, as a member of the U.S. Military, we aren't doing things on our own....we are following the commands of our commander in chief, George Bush. So don't be cruel to the military, blame their commander who put us over there in the first place. I spent my time in Iraq, and as a woman I have a lot more compassion than some of my male counterparts, but I have to tell you....after being shot at multiple times, you get so on edge that anything that moves you feel like you have to shoot it. So I say...Blame the government that sent us over there, blame the government that oversees our training to teach us to kill everything in our paths, but please don't blame us soldiers, we are just innocents to, obeying our commanders who are obeying the GOVERNMENT
Life comes to a complete standstill sometimes.......that's when you kick it in the nuts and tell it to get back to work
GOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
So sanderson82, when hasn’t obeying commanders and Government been part of being in the Military?
So sanderson82, when hasn’t obeying commanders and Government been part of being in the Military?
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
SILVER Member
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
Posted:
if you are willing to sign your life to the hands of someone/thing else then you are either naive or should take responsability for being a cog in the machine. IMO its irrisponsable to do something like that, where you get paid/educated/whatever, and then attempt to shrug off responsability for all the bad things you take part in to someone else. but then i suppose 'blame someone else' is the catchphrase of mordern western society.
if you are willing to sign your life to the hands of someone/thing else then you are either naive or should take responsability for being a cog in the machine. IMO its irrisponsable to do something like that, where you get paid/educated/whatever, and then attempt to shrug off responsability for all the bad things you take part in to someone else. but then i suppose 'blame someone else' is the catchphrase of mordern western society.
"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"
jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley
SILVER Member
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
Posted:
Written by: Taostar
He's five foot-two, and he's six feet-four,
He fights with missiles and with spears.
He's all of thirty-one, and he's only seventeen,
Been a soldier for a thousand years.
He'a a Catholic, a Hindu, an Atheist, a Jain,
A Buddhist and a Baptist and a Jew.
And he knows he shouldn't kill,
And he knows he always will,
Kill you for me my friend and me for you.
And he's fighting for Canada,
He's fighting for France,
He's fighting for the USA,
And he's fighting for the Russians,
And he's fighting for Japan,
And he thinks we'll put an end to war this way.
And he's fighting for Democracy,
He's fighting for the Reds,
He says it's for the peace of all.
He's the one who must decide,
Who's to live and who's to die,
And he never sees the writing on the wall.
But without him,
How would Hitler have condemned him at Dachau?
Without him Caesar would have stood alone,
He's the one who gives his body
As a weapon of the war,
And without him all this killing can't go on.
He's the Universal Soldier and he really is to blame,
His orders come from far away no more,
They come from here and there and you and me,
And brothers can't you see,
This is not the way we put the end to war.
by donovan.
"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"
jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley
Carpal \'Tunnel
7,193 posts
Location: in the trees
7,193 posts
Location: in the trees
Posted:
sorry if this sounds off........but i think the American forces could learn alot from the British armed forces.
for 25 years they patrolled the streets of northern ireland, fighting in an urban setting against people using gorilla tactics. they are used to patrolling the streets, constantly under the threat of sniper or I.E.D attacks.
the IRA where good at what they did, they had lot of expertise in explosives.
in ANY conflict there will be innocent lives lost or destroyed...............i believe it's dubbed "collateral damage, a few bad eggs can ruin the good reputation of any unit.
sorry if this sounds off........but i think the American forces could learn alot from the British armed forces.
for 25 years they patrolled the streets of northern ireland, fighting in an urban setting against people using gorilla tactics. they are used to patrolling the streets, constantly under the threat of sniper or I.E.D attacks.
the IRA where good at what they did, they had lot of expertise in explosives.
in ANY conflict there will be innocent lives lost or destroyed...............i believe it's dubbed "collateral damage, a few bad eggs can ruin the good reputation of any unit.
SILVER Member
currently mending
493 posts
Location: Bristol, New Zealand
currently mending
493 posts
Location: Bristol, New Zealand
Posted:
if prior to the second invasion of iraq the US army had a record of being used solely for international peacekeeping and defending the national border from extrnal attacks then this might be a valid defence.
if however you consider that over the last 50 years the US army has been used to attack amongst others Cuba, Haiti, Nicaragua, Panama, Grenada, Guatamala, Korea, and Vietnam resulting in the deaths of an estimated 15 million foreign civillians, then any individual who volunteers for this force can hardly claim that aggression towards another nation is novel or unexpected.
when a country has such a consistent record of butchering foreign civillians anyone concerned about having to undertake such actions will stay well clear of the institution.
blame the politicians (and the buisnessmen who back them) for starting wars
and blame for soldiers for fighting (if no one was prepared to drop the bomb then no one would die as a result of it)
Written by:
don't be cruel to the military, blame their commander who put us over there in the first place
if prior to the second invasion of iraq the US army had a record of being used solely for international peacekeeping and defending the national border from extrnal attacks then this might be a valid defence.
if however you consider that over the last 50 years the US army has been used to attack amongst others Cuba, Haiti, Nicaragua, Panama, Grenada, Guatamala, Korea, and Vietnam resulting in the deaths of an estimated 15 million foreign civillians, then any individual who volunteers for this force can hardly claim that aggression towards another nation is novel or unexpected.
when a country has such a consistent record of butchering foreign civillians anyone concerned about having to undertake such actions will stay well clear of the institution.
blame the politicians (and the buisnessmen who back them) for starting wars
and blame for soldiers for fighting (if no one was prepared to drop the bomb then no one would die as a result of it)
He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.
Nietzsche
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