Forums > Technical Discussion > Some sort of fireproof plastic sheet?

Posted: 3rd Jan 2006
Won't be extremely durable, but cheap and easy to replace.... you considered simple tin/aluminum foil?

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Posted: 3rd Jan 2006
Fireblanket maybe? Not sure how well it'd work and it's not exactly light weight but it's all I can think of. I've also had a few thoughts about a flaming kite but yeah, material for the wing is the needed bit.

Could somebody stop the room please... I'd like to get off

Posted: 4th Jan 2006
If you google under fireproof fabrics lots of possibilities come up... no expereince with any of them, but sounds interesting! Curious to see how it will work, hope you post pics and a vid!

"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."

Posted: 4th Jan 2006
Hello Sparkey,
Both Fibre glass and carbon fibre WILL burn if you get them hot enough, or more accurately the RESIN holding the fibres in place will burn.

Aluminium foil melts quite easily as well: not a great amount of heat required, and it certainly becomes weaker after heating and more likely to tear, even when it has cooled down again.

I would suggest that before you construct anything big that you perform pretty intense "testing to destruction" on your materials, think how much pull you feel on a stunt kite... How will your materials stand up to the kind of forces you will be exerting on them?

Try to get some samples of all materials you are considering using, set them on fire and seriously traumatise them, bend-twist-pull-fold them, both hot AND cold, before and after fire.

Don't get me wrong :-) this is a truley tasty idea which I wish I had thought of first, just be d#mned carefull what you use constructing it..... And first time out please fly it on a big, empty, sandy beach, Preferably just after it's been raining!

We want photos when it works!
best of luck,
M

Posted: 4th Jan 2006
Be very careful of so called "fireproof" fabrics because what most of them actually are is flame retardant/resistant. This does not mean they will not catch fire, it just means they have a treatment on them that will slow down how fast they will catch fire and they will usually smolder rather than burst into flames.

Squarefish is right, the only way you are going to find a suitable fabric is to run tests. Stress the fabric to the max and see if it is still flameproof. Take lots of care when you do it, wear goggles and protective gloves etc.

Good Luck!

Feed me Chocolate!!! Feed me NOW!

Posted: 9th Jan 2006
Go to a welding supplier, alot of welders use a fireproof plastic screen/curtain (much like a shower curtain) for segregating welders from the rest of the factory/workshop they are slightly tinted to stop welding blindness but may be a little thick for what you want. Worth a try though...

And these are actually certified firePROOF even with white-hot sparks from welding they won't catch fire...

Contact juggling was invented by dung beetles.

Posted: 11th Jan 2006
I don't think fire proof and plastic belong in the same sentance do they???

Posted: 11th Jan 2006
What i have done in the past, on a 2 string kite is replace a section of the flying string with thin wire around 2 meters before you get to the kite, in the centre of the wire make 2 attachment points. twisted length of around 4" wick as long as the bridle width and secure between each point on the wire,

although the actual kite isn't on fire it still looks good in the dark and keeps full control of the kite.

sorry not good instructions but hopefully you get my point.

hope this helps

russ

Posted: 11th Jan 2006

Written by: Docta

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I don't think fire proof and plastic belong in the same sentance do they???

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As I mentioned this plastic is treated (probably by some voodoo magic) and it guarenteed to be fireproof...

Contact juggling was invented by dung beetles.

Posted: 11th Jan 2006
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Other than that, I can be of no help.

Sorry.

Posted: 11th Jan 2006
Moka those curtains are ment to stop the sparks, slag and to some degree the UV light from welding, not to be magical fireproof sheets of wonder. They can and will burn when exposed to open flames.

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Posted: 11th Jan 2006
"I don't think fire proof and plastic belong in the same sentance do they??? "

Ever heard of Kevlar ?

"Moka those curtains are ment to stop the sparks, slag and to some degree the UV light from welding, not to be magical fireproof sheets of wonder. They can and will burn when exposed to open flames."

Bother. That sounded promising, although I had suspected that might be the case.

-James

"How do you know if you're happy or sad without a mask? Or angry? Or ready for dessert?"

Posted: 11th Jan 2006
"totally fireproof" ??? well I certainly cannot help with something like this and those courtains are certainly not "lightweight"...

all I can suggest are those translucent sheets that are used for colouring the spotlights. photographers use them, stage-lighters use them. they are far from cheap and "totally fireproof" is in my doubting. "cinefoil" is another term popping up in my mind... check a theatre- cinema- photostudio- supplystore for them.

sorry for not being a great help here...

the best smiles are the ones you lead to

Posted: 12th Jan 2006

Written by: sparkey

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"I don't think fire proof and plastic belong in the same sentance do they??? "

Ever heard of Kevlar ?

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Dude I don't think Kevlar is "plastic" as such.........but I don't wanna get too technical on you..........It was just a comment made for laughs you know ha ha and all that............Boy, there's some serious dudes on this website Sheeeesh !

Doc

Posted: 12th Jan 2006
"Boy, there's some serious dudes on this website"

Yup

Posted: 13th Jan 2006
On a slightly separate note. Tesco do some great kites. £8 for a 2 line parafoil one and £5 for a smaller delta style stunt kite (again 2 line). They are fun and I'm going to experiment with a adding a little something glowing to them because flying a kite at night is fun.

Could somebody stop the room please... I'd like to get off

Posted: 13th Jan 2006
I still say the heaviest duty tin/aluminum cooking foil you can find is going to be your best bet.. It probably won't last too long but for fire durability, weight, and price I'd say it's worth a shot.... Plus it's shiny so it'll look like you've got more fire than you do

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Posted: 13th Jan 2006
Aluminum really wouldn't work. To be durable enough to withstand the heat and air pressure, it would be too heavy to be properly kite-like.

Perhaps my supreme ultimate miracle material doesn't exist after all. Oh, well, I can always light something else on fire.

-James

"How do you know if you're happy or sad without a mask? Or angry? Or ready for dessert?"

Posted: 13th Jan 2006
well I just reread your description up there... why not just find something as close as you can to what you want and modify your frame a little bit to extend the wicks further away from the 'wing'.. kind like how fire hoopers put the wicks on arms sticking out, its not like anyone would notice if you're flying it at night

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Posted: 14th Jan 2006
Isn't balance going to be a problem then Lurch? The wicks on both sides would have to have the exact same amount of fuel on them and burn at the same rate or one side would end up heavier than the other..... That is if I'm understanding your extention of the frame plan right.

Maybe that wouldn't be a problem? I don't know enough about kites to say.

Feed me Chocolate!!! Feed me NOW!

Posted: 14th Jan 2006
I don't know a whole lot about kites either, so I would say it would depend on how its going to be controlled. I do believe most 'stunt kites' have to control lines coming off them them so one should be able to adjust for balance... Maybe.. Who knows..

I don't think fire directly to a fiberglass frame is a good idea though..

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Posted: 14th Jan 2006

Written by: Lurch

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well I just reread your description up there... why not just find something as close as you can to what you want and modify your frame a little bit to extend the wicks further away from the 'wing'.. kind like how fire hoopers put the wicks on arms sticking out, its not like anyone would notice if you're flying it at night

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Written by: Skulduggery

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Isn't balance going to be a problem then Lurch? The wicks on both sides would have to have the exact same amount of fuel on them and burn at the same rate or one side would end up heavier than the other..... That is if I'm understanding your extention of the frame plan right.



Maybe that wouldn't be a problem? I don't know enough about kites to say.

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Don't know about you guys, but if I were going to all this trouble to make a super flaming kite, I'd what it to be a super flaming STUNT kite, that I controlled with two hands, and it'd be darting all over the sky, lighting up at night in a firey blaze of glory, so the rate at which the fuel burns and exact lengths of trailing wick arms or whatever would be somewhat negligible. Or you could have a kite the doesn't wizz around the sky, and just flaps up there in the breeze, and have to worry about all that other stuff..............trailing burn rates or whatever.



Anyhow........





Doc
EDITED_BY: Docta (1137283282)

Posted: 20th Jan 2006



__________ kite
/
/ wire
/
*---------* fire platform
/
/wire
/
0
/II\ pilot
/ \

= solution!
Sorry rushed post,figure it out guys.
(Wire held in hand not attached to cranium)

Posted: 20th Jan 2006
would Nomex work?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomex

Posted: 21st Jan 2006
If you can get a thin enough sheet then I'm sure it will but I think its very expensive (not sure though so don't hold me to that).

Have faith in what you can do and respect for what you can't

Posted: 24th Jan 2006
Okay, so looking at this rationalliy, I would have to agree with the people making recommendations to use kevlar wicks on the frame. I do think the idea of a flaming kite would be interesting, but I don't see exactly how it would work.

For one, it's going to be truly hard to find something that will fit an additional quality as per performance aspect that I don't think has been addressed. People have already pointed out a need to find a material that is going to be both durable to withstand the heat of the fire, but also lightweight enough to allow for flying. You're also going to need something that is going to be a good fuel carrier, wicking it as opposed to just pooling it on the surface (*people don't generally like fire splashing at them)

Ok, so looking at that, most of your lightweight fabrics and materials are going to have a thin, but tight weave to it. You're already rather limited as per the materials you can send up just because of the nature of kite flying. The material is only going to get heavier with fuel. You can compensate for this by carefully selecting kite design and experimenting with kites that will have more lift to handle the increased load on them. Or, perhaps, you could adjust the design of the particular stunt kite you favor to handle the additional weight of the fuel.

I'd probably start by studying indoor and low wind kites. They're aleady designed to compensate lifting a load (while very small in this case a very small and slight load due to ultralight materials) with very little current or force applied to them. Wind Power Sports has a bunch of indoor or low wind kites based off of one style of design, and I want to say Go Fly a Kite should have cheaper models if you decide to Franken-Kite one of them.

At any rate, experiment with designing a kite with the comfortable control and movement that you want but with the ability to either haul a slightly heavier load than usual, or the ability to fly in low wind conditions just as easily as moderate winds.

I know, I know, you're thinking, "Fuel, big deal. Not a hell of a lot of wieght."

Still, better to be precautious.

The real beef of pointing all that out is: burn time. I'm betting you're probably going to have an exceptionally slim burn time on the actual material burn. Any wicks would have a decent burn time. So, I'd prolly agree with the aforementioned recommendation to use a shiny or reflective material to maximize the appearance of the flames, if at all possible. This way, once the material goes out- you still have the impression of it from the wicks' reflections.

Ok, so, you've got the kite in the air. Here's where I'd have to agree with most to select a rather desolate patch of beach or desert to practice. My biggest concern for you, as opposed to the aforementioned design considerations, is less in regards to those notes. I'm sure you've already thought of that. My biggest concern, however, is small, flaming chunks of fabric breaking away from the kite and becoming little bits of flying doom. Many thinner materials are either going to smolder, melt, and shrink, or just break apart when engulfed to the point of destruction.

Just have your safety techs ready with fire blanket and extinguisher on hand and avoid any dune and grass preservation areas, particularly in dry seasons. And, as always, bring you friends with access to video, digital or traditional cameras to document the event for all to see.

Happy burning, let me know how it turns out.

(oh, and onto a more relevent note: try swcoping out McMaster-Carr. They might have something of interest as per flame retardants or other fun toys that might be helpful with your experiments!)

"So long and thanks for all the fish."

Posted: 25th Jan 2006
The extra weight in fuel is exactly why I don't want the material of the kite to be absorbant. I think I mentioned that someplace, but no matter. The integrety of the kite shouldn't be a problem; the wicks will be secured quite well so they won't fall off. The only problem would be if the wings aren't sufficiently fireproof, and therein lies the problem. I'm currently wondering if there's anything I could use to coat some lightwieght cloth, perhaps cotton, to make it both flame proof and non-absorbant. Oh, and Mr. Flair and Senior Spatulaphile: Nomex is essentially the same thing as Kevlar, with only a few different properties.

-James

"How do you know if you're happy or sad without a mask? Or angry? Or ready for dessert?"