Forums > Social Discussion > So, will it all be justified?
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310 posts
Location: Kent currently, Cornwall soon, New Zealand eventua...
310 posts
Location: Kent currently, Cornwall soon, New Zealand eventua...
Posted:
As someone who deeply opposed the invasion of Iraq, I find that there is one pro-war argument in particular that is difficult to answer. It has been mentioned in the other war threads, but never properly discussed - we always seem to get sidelined by debating individual incidents, the truth about which no-one knows.
I tend to assume that the US/UK motives for engaging in this war were entirely self-serving and immoral, but for the purposes of this debate their motivations, I think, are irrelevant. The argument I always find it difficult to answer is this:
If, in five years time, the people of Iraq are significantly better off than they would have been under Saddam, will the war not have been justified?
This argument avoids questions of motivation, the existance of WMDs.. all the lies and rhetoric our glorious leaders espoused to talk us into this thing.
(should note that I consider those arguments to have been completely proved to be spurious -
even if there were WMDs we obviously had no idea whether they still existed, though of course we knew they were there in the first place because we sold them to him;
we are allied with and supporting regimes guilty of far worse atrocities;
both the CIA and the foreign service advised their respective governments that the post-war chaos in Iraq would reduce stability in the area rather than increase it;
no connection between Saddam and Al Qaida has ever been demonstrated)
Comes back to the question of whether you can do a good thing for bad reasons, I suppose. We could debate endlessly whether the Iraqi people or the world at large are actually better off for the change... but let's face it, none of us really know what we're talking about. For the sake of the argument, let's assume that in five years the Iraqi people and the world at large are going to be better off for this war (quite an assumption - it grates with me as well). Was it justified?
As someone who deeply opposed the invasion of Iraq, I find that there is one pro-war argument in particular that is difficult to answer. It has been mentioned in the other war threads, but never properly discussed - we always seem to get sidelined by debating individual incidents, the truth about which no-one knows.
I tend to assume that the US/UK motives for engaging in this war were entirely self-serving and immoral, but for the purposes of this debate their motivations, I think, are irrelevant. The argument I always find it difficult to answer is this:
If, in five years time, the people of Iraq are significantly better off than they would have been under Saddam, will the war not have been justified?
This argument avoids questions of motivation, the existance of WMDs.. all the lies and rhetoric our glorious leaders espoused to talk us into this thing.
(should note that I consider those arguments to have been completely proved to be spurious -
even if there were WMDs we obviously had no idea whether they still existed, though of course we knew they were there in the first place because we sold them to him;
we are allied with and supporting regimes guilty of far worse atrocities;
both the CIA and the foreign service advised their respective governments that the post-war chaos in Iraq would reduce stability in the area rather than increase it;
no connection between Saddam and Al Qaida has ever been demonstrated)
Comes back to the question of whether you can do a good thing for bad reasons, I suppose. We could debate endlessly whether the Iraqi people or the world at large are actually better off for the change... but let's face it, none of us really know what we're talking about. For the sake of the argument, let's assume that in five years the Iraqi people and the world at large are going to be better off for this war (quite an assumption - it grates with me as well). Was it justified?
The Confusion Squid has many tentacles
member
531 posts
531 posts
Posted:
I read this article in Rolling Stone a couple months ago about depleted uranium and while I'm not gonna say it is absolute fact it does leave some food for thought.
Article on depleted uranium.
I read this article in Rolling Stone a couple months ago about depleted uranium and while I'm not gonna say it is absolute fact it does leave some food for thought.
Article on depleted uranium.
110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
3,149 posts
Location: London
3,149 posts
Location: London
Posted:
Couldn't find it. Did find this which was quite interesting.
some old dead white atheists
er, a bit off topic though...
Quote:
According to a part of US legislation, state leaders are required to leave their religion at the door, as it were.
(I'm sorry, I don't have the time to look it up, maybe someone who knows it better than I do can help).
Couldn't find it. Did find this which was quite interesting.
some old dead white atheists
er, a bit off topic though...
"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."
Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
Posted:
Yep lots of snippage... I hated doing it but I wanted my post to make sense.
So this time I will leave out the multitude of quotes and hope that yall can piece together the info as best you can
G-Bay a concentration camp: well... when most people think of concentration camps they think of WWII German camps that housed Jews and other minorities with gas showers and ovens for burning the corpses. This is really not what G-Bay is. At the beginning the prisoners were not kept in a place where they had much in the way of shelter. This has changed they have shelter from the elements 3 square meals a day... something I don't always get... and toilet facilities.
Humanely has an opinion based definition. I think they are being treated humanely, they arnt treated like a normal US convict but they are being treated a lot better than other countries treat their own citizens.
Yes... GWB does need to be investigated now... it is drawing close to election time I completely agree.
Yes, there is a separation between church and state, but you can hardly leave what you believe at the door. I mean it is kinda like a doc leaving their stethoscope at home!
Poiaholic... I am not going to be able to read that article just yet, but thank you for posting it.
Simian, you're an interesting guy... (Just saying that cause I don't quite know what to say just yet
)
Yep lots of snippage... I hated doing it but I wanted my post to make sense.
So this time I will leave out the multitude of quotes and hope that yall can piece together the info as best you can
G-Bay a concentration camp: well... when most people think of concentration camps they think of WWII German camps that housed Jews and other minorities with gas showers and ovens for burning the corpses. This is really not what G-Bay is. At the beginning the prisoners were not kept in a place where they had much in the way of shelter. This has changed they have shelter from the elements 3 square meals a day... something I don't always get... and toilet facilities.
Humanely has an opinion based definition. I think they are being treated humanely, they arnt treated like a normal US convict but they are being treated a lot better than other countries treat their own citizens.
Yes... GWB does need to be investigated now... it is drawing close to election time I completely agree.
Yes, there is a separation between church and state, but you can hardly leave what you believe at the door. I mean it is kinda like a doc leaving their stethoscope at home!
Poiaholic... I am not going to be able to read that article just yet, but thank you for posting it.
Simian, you're an interesting guy... (Just saying that cause I don't quite know what to say just yet
)Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
GOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
Well I suppose if u shake a tree hard enough then something is bound to fall out. In this case, Libya and Iran (?) declaring their stash of weapons. Though, I'm dissapointed that the "Coalition of the Willing" (sic) otherwise known as the Leaders of the World have been dishonest and acted as vigilants. Nuf said.
Ray "Fireproof" Phule. True, I was having a bit of a rant before, but I wasn't baiting you. I do however, think u have missed an important point regarding the incarceration of men and childern at GB in Cuba. It's not about whether they receive their Red Cross packages or not; it the fact that they were imprisioned indefinitely, without the right of appeal or justic or contact with their family or the outside world or anything.
Well I suppose if u shake a tree hard enough then something is bound to fall out. In this case, Libya and Iran (?) declaring their stash of weapons. Though, I'm dissapointed that the "Coalition of the Willing" (sic) otherwise known as the Leaders of the World have been dishonest and acted as vigilants. Nuf said.
Ray "Fireproof" Phule. True, I was having a bit of a rant before, but I wasn't baiting you. I do however, think u have missed an important point regarding the incarceration of men and childern at GB in Cuba. It's not about whether they receive their Red Cross packages or not; it the fact that they were imprisioned indefinitely, without the right of appeal or justic or contact with their family or the outside world or anything.
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
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2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
Posted:
A child can kill just as easily as an adult, I know you will find this a horrible thing to read but, I just don't care. Those people, I see as my enemy, be they children or adults.
My point is, is that they could be in far worse than what they are. You speek as if it is an atrocity, well... look at some of the other countries in the world, compare G-Bay to them and then tell me if you can truly call what G-Bay is as an atrocity.
By the way, can you show me where you saw that there were children in G-Bay?
A child can kill just as easily as an adult, I know you will find this a horrible thing to read but, I just don't care. Those people, I see as my enemy, be they children or adults.
My point is, is that they could be in far worse than what they are. You speek as if it is an atrocity, well... look at some of the other countries in the world, compare G-Bay to them and then tell me if you can truly call what G-Bay is as an atrocity.
By the way, can you show me where you saw that there were children in G-Bay?
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
GOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
Yo, is is an atrocity. Call me old fashion, but I think everyone has a right to a fair trial. Imagine if u were locked up without any rights, never to be released. The bit about other countries is not an arguement, now is it?
Sorry, it was a doco on TV about 6 mts ago.
Quote:
You speek as if it is an atrocity, well... look at some of the other countries in the world, compare G-Bay to them and then tell me if you can truly call what G-Bay is as an atrocity.
Yo, is is an atrocity. Call me old fashion, but I think everyone has a right to a fair trial. Imagine if u were locked up without any rights, never to be released. The bit about other countries is not an arguement, now is it?
Quote:
By the way, can you show me where you saw that there were children in G-Bay?
Sorry, it was a doco on TV about 6 mts ago.
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
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2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
Posted:
Stone, there are things that I know that if I told you I would be locked up and so would you... indefinatly.
Hrm... well... I have heard nothing of children in G-Bay, and I have done some minor searching on the net for it and have yet to find anything. I wish you could have gotten a good souce, but ohh well... it is enough that you got me looking for it on my own so kudose
Okay here is a little test for you all... NOW NO CHEATING!!!
Question 1: If you knew a woman who was pregnant, who had 8 kids already, three who were deaf, two who were blind one mentally retarded, and she had syphilis, would you recommend that she have an abortion?
Read the next question before looking at the answer for this one.
Question 2: It is time to elect a new world leader, and only your vote counts. Here are the facts about the three leading candidates.
Candidate A - Associates with crooked politicians, and consults with astrologists. He's had two Mistresses. He also chain smokes and drinks 8 to 10 martinis a day.
Candidate B - He was kicked out of office twice, sleeps until noon, used opium in college and drinks a quart of whiskey every evening.
Candidate C - He is a decorated war hero. He's a vegetarian, doesn't smoke, drinks an occasional beer and never cheated on his wife.
Which of these candidates would be your choice?
Decide first, no peeking, then scroll down for the answer..
Candidate A is Franklin D. Roosevelt.
Candidate B is Winston Churchill.
Candidate C is Adolph Hitler. (I thought Eva Braun was his mistress) And, by the way, the answer to the abortion question: If you said yes, you just killed Beethoven.
Pretty interesting isn't it? Makes a person think before judging
someone.
Never be afraid to try something new. Remember: Amateurs built the ark.Professionals built the Titanic and in case you never saw this one......
Can you imagine working for a company that has a little more than 500 employees and has the following statistics:
* 29 have been accused of spousal abuse
* 7 have been arrested for fraud
* 19 have been accused of writing bad checks
* 117 have directly or indirectly bankrupted at least 2 businesses
* 3 have done time for assault
* 71 cannot get a credit card due to bad credit
* 14 have been arrested on drug-related charges
* 8 have been arrested for shoplifting
* 21 are currently defendants in lawsuits
* 84 have been arrested for drunk driving in the last year
Can you guess which organization this is? Give up yet?
It's the 535 members of the United States Congress. The same group of idiots that crank out hundreds of new laws each year designed to keep the rest of us in line.
Stone, there are things that I know that if I told you I would be locked up and so would you... indefinatly.
Hrm... well... I have heard nothing of children in G-Bay, and I have done some minor searching on the net for it and have yet to find anything. I wish you could have gotten a good souce, but ohh well... it is enough that you got me looking for it on my own so kudose
Okay here is a little test for you all... NOW NO CHEATING!!!
Question 1: If you knew a woman who was pregnant, who had 8 kids already, three who were deaf, two who were blind one mentally retarded, and she had syphilis, would you recommend that she have an abortion?
Read the next question before looking at the answer for this one.
Question 2: It is time to elect a new world leader, and only your vote counts. Here are the facts about the three leading candidates.
Candidate A - Associates with crooked politicians, and consults with astrologists. He's had two Mistresses. He also chain smokes and drinks 8 to 10 martinis a day.
Candidate B - He was kicked out of office twice, sleeps until noon, used opium in college and drinks a quart of whiskey every evening.
Candidate C - He is a decorated war hero. He's a vegetarian, doesn't smoke, drinks an occasional beer and never cheated on his wife.
Which of these candidates would be your choice?
Decide first, no peeking, then scroll down for the answer..
Candidate A is Franklin D. Roosevelt.
Candidate B is Winston Churchill.
Candidate C is Adolph Hitler. (I thought Eva Braun was his mistress) And, by the way, the answer to the abortion question: If you said yes, you just killed Beethoven.
Pretty interesting isn't it? Makes a person think before judging
someone.
Never be afraid to try something new. Remember: Amateurs built the ark.Professionals built the Titanic and in case you never saw this one......
Can you imagine working for a company that has a little more than 500 employees and has the following statistics:
* 29 have been accused of spousal abuse
* 7 have been arrested for fraud
* 19 have been accused of writing bad checks
* 117 have directly or indirectly bankrupted at least 2 businesses
* 3 have done time for assault
* 71 cannot get a credit card due to bad credit
* 14 have been arrested on drug-related charges
* 8 have been arrested for shoplifting
* 21 are currently defendants in lawsuits
* 84 have been arrested for drunk driving in the last year
Can you guess which organization this is? Give up yet?
It's the 535 members of the United States Congress. The same group of idiots that crank out hundreds of new laws each year designed to keep the rest of us in line.
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
Posted:
Me, I fit into the theird option, both
I wouldnt exactly call a 16 yearold a child, hell a 16 yearold can be charged as an adult, and the 13-15 yearolds were treated very well... but they are and were criminals. Used by the Taliban, so... no pity comes from me.
Me, I fit into the theird option, both
I wouldnt exactly call a 16 yearold a child, hell a 16 yearold can be charged as an adult, and the 13-15 yearolds were treated very well... but they are and were criminals. Used by the Taliban, so... no pity comes from me.
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
GOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
Ray, Hitler had only one ball, but I don't know what that has to do with the price of flowers at the fish market.
I know this is a smoke screen, but I leave the issue of abortion to the people it concerns directly. I know WC drank whisky and only requires 2 hrs sleep a night, but I am not the person judging other people here, am I?
Interesting stats on the United States Congress. I think I have the right qualifications, how do I get job there? And is there anything in the rumor that Pres. Bush was a deserter during the Vietnam war.
I don't belive in 'battery hens" and I don't belive in denying people their rights a human beings. U don't have to like your enemy, but that does not mean u have treat them poorly, as a sub-species. The shoe colud be onthe other foot one day. And hey, wasn't it JC who said, "love thy enemy".
Ray, Hitler had only one ball, but I don't know what that has to do with the price of flowers at the fish market.
I know this is a smoke screen, but I leave the issue of abortion to the people it concerns directly. I know WC drank whisky and only requires 2 hrs sleep a night, but I am not the person judging other people here, am I?
Interesting stats on the United States Congress. I think I have the right qualifications, how do I get job there? And is there anything in the rumor that Pres. Bush was a deserter during the Vietnam war.
I don't belive in 'battery hens" and I don't belive in denying people their rights a human beings. U don't have to like your enemy, but that does not mean u have treat them poorly, as a sub-species. The shoe colud be onthe other foot one day. And hey, wasn't it JC who said, "love thy enemy".
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
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2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
Posted:
Stone why are you going out of your way to be mean? Don't you know that I am trying to be a nice guy here and you leaving yourself open for some lude comments isn't making this any easier.
Am I doing a damn thing? Hell no I'm not, my opinoin of the matter isnt doing anything either, so why don't you stop accusing ME of whatever it is you have a stick up your butt over.
I love em so much that I am going to be arainging a face to face meeting
Stone why are you going out of your way to be mean? Don't you know that I am trying to be a nice guy here and you leaving yourself open for some lude comments isn't making this any easier.
Am I doing a damn thing? Hell no I'm not, my opinoin of the matter isnt doing anything either, so why don't you stop accusing ME of whatever it is you have a stick up your butt over.
Quote:
And hey, wasn't it JC who said, "love thy enemy".
I love em so much that I am going to be arainging a face to face meeting
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
GOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
Ray, while I may have missed your point in your last post, I think it is grossly unfair to call me mean, because I do nor, or will not support the Human Rights Violations that are being perpetrated by your country and mine.
Ray, while I may have missed your point in your last post, I think it is grossly unfair to call me mean, because I do nor, or will not support the Human Rights Violations that are being perpetrated by your country and mine.
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
Posted:
No I am saying you are being mean because you are attacking me over it. That is all. I don't mind that you are against what you call "Human Rights Violations that are being perpetrated by your country and mine. " Thats cool be against what you want, but just because I don't share the same exact view don't come after me with a vengence, I can't change anythign from where I am so please stop barking up the wrong tree so to speek.
Ohh BTW I saw you Frosty, welcome back!
No I am saying you are being mean because you are attacking me over it. That is all. I don't mind that you are against what you call "Human Rights Violations that are being perpetrated by your country and mine. " Thats cool be against what you want, but just because I don't share the same exact view don't come after me with a vengence, I can't change anythign from where I am so please stop barking up the wrong tree so to speek.
Ohh BTW I saw you Frosty, welcome back!
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
3,149 posts
Location: London
3,149 posts
Location: London
Posted:
Hey Ray,
i don't see anything Stone wrote that was mean or an attack on you.
in fact, i've only started posting in this forum again because of how well mannered and nice it's been recently from most people. There's been way more argument in Social and Poi moves than in here
He does state his argument in a very strong and confident way, and uses humour to lighten it (which might be what you interpreted as being mean). Which is a good description of your posts, innit?
Hey Ray,
i don't see anything Stone wrote that was mean or an attack on you.
in fact, i've only started posting in this forum again because of how well mannered and nice it's been recently from most people. There's been way more argument in Social and Poi moves than in here
He does state his argument in a very strong and confident way, and uses humour to lighten it (which might be what you interpreted as being mean). Which is a good description of your posts, innit?
"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."
Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
Posted:
To me it sounded as if he was accusing me of what he calls atrocities.
Quote:
U don't have to like your enemy, but that does not mean u have treat them poorly, as a sub-species
To me it sounded as if he was accusing me of what he calls atrocities.
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
3,149 posts
Location: London
3,149 posts
Location: London
Posted:
Ah, the difference between the rheotorical "you" and the accusatory "you"
i got into a bit of an argument cos of misunderstanding this recently.
Rhetorical - you blow up hippos, you get in trouble.
the you doesn't actually mean YOU personally, unlike this...
Accusatory - you blew up that hippo on purpose.
it's best not to use 'you' rhetorically. It's easy to tell with tone of voice, but prone to misinterpretation in writing.
Ah, the difference between the rheotorical "you" and the accusatory "you"
i got into a bit of an argument cos of misunderstanding this recently.
Rhetorical - you blow up hippos, you get in trouble.
the you doesn't actually mean YOU personally, unlike this...
Accusatory - you blew up that hippo on purpose.
it's best not to use 'you' rhetorically. It's easy to tell with tone of voice, but prone to misinterpretation in writing.
"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."
110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
3,149 posts
Location: London
3,149 posts
Location: London
Posted:
Whereas that was a mean post...
the accusatory 'you' used particularly nastily:
i wouldn't like to guess how many people Ray's killed personally, but i'm guessing it's not very many (around zero is my first guess).
He is quite correct that the decisions of individual soldiers and the military are seperate to the foreign policies of the US government. He is doing his duty to his country by serving in the armed forces and should not be condemned for that. Until there is global peace and harmony we need people who are willing to risk their lives to keep our countries safe.
Can we continue to discuss these issues with a less personal slant, or i'm going to stop posting in this forum (again...)
So ANYWAY back to the topic...
will it all be justified?
hmm, that's a totally unanswerable question.
because you need knowledge of both the future of Iraq AND what the future of Iraq under Saddam would have been.
One of which we can never have, and one only time will tell...
Whereas that was a mean post...
the accusatory 'you' used particularly nastily:
Quote:
You kill people to defend the USA
i wouldn't like to guess how many people Ray's killed personally, but i'm guessing it's not very many (around zero is my first guess).
He is quite correct that the decisions of individual soldiers and the military are seperate to the foreign policies of the US government. He is doing his duty to his country by serving in the armed forces and should not be condemned for that. Until there is global peace and harmony we need people who are willing to risk their lives to keep our countries safe.
Can we continue to discuss these issues with a less personal slant, or i'm going to stop posting in this forum (again...)
So ANYWAY back to the topic...
will it all be justified?
hmm, that's a totally unanswerable question.
because you need knowledge of both the future of Iraq AND what the future of Iraq under Saddam would have been.
One of which we can never have, and one only time will tell...
"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."
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2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
Posted:
Yes that was a mean post, and people wonder why I get defensive
The answer to the question untill proven is a matter of opinion, nobody can be right or wrong. If Iraq is better off than it was while under Sadam in his prime, then I will definatly say that it is justified. That can be proven, because we have past statistics to compaire to.
Yes that was a mean post, and people wonder why I get defensive
The answer to the question untill proven is a matter of opinion, nobody can be right or wrong. If Iraq is better off than it was while under Sadam in his prime, then I will definatly say that it is justified. That can be proven, because we have past statistics to compaire to.
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
member
86 posts
Location: I'm not sure
86 posts
Location: I'm not sure
Posted:
I think the question here needs to be clarified.
Will Iraq be better off in five years?
If so will it be better because Sadam is gone or because the suffering that western countried caused Iraqis with crippling sanctions for 12 years are gone?
If it is better off in five years it will surely be a combination of the two factors, which will mean that it will be impossible to ever say that Iraq is better off because of the invasion.
It is a fact, however, that Iraq has been worse off for a long time now because of America's (and their coalition of the willing) actions.
I think the question here needs to be clarified.
Will Iraq be better off in five years?
If so will it be better because Sadam is gone or because the suffering that western countried caused Iraqis with crippling sanctions for 12 years are gone?
If it is better off in five years it will surely be a combination of the two factors, which will mean that it will be impossible to ever say that Iraq is better off because of the invasion.
It is a fact, however, that Iraq has been worse off for a long time now because of America's (and their coalition of the willing) actions.
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Location: San Diego California
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
Posted:
I have never been to the Gulf, let alone in combat. I didn't vote for Bush and enlisted before he took office, Sadam brought the sanctions down on his own people, the US didn't just pick his country at random.
WHR, read man read. Read what I say, if things are better than when Sadam was at his peek then things will be justified. Before the sanctions before all that BS happend 12-13 years ago. I agree with you that to compare 4-5 years from now to 4-5 years before all this happend isnt right and it should not be. It probably will be, that is just my opinion of how Bush thinks, but non the less it shouldn't be.
Frosty:
Look bud, do you know any itel guys? I do, and I can't really grasp how the get the info they get. Hearing some of the stories that they tell... it boggles the mind, but you know what? I really doubt that anyone here knows a flip about the intel business.
Do yall like it when people rip on Poi with out ever seeing it or ever trying it? I don't, try to show the same professional curtosy when you talk about other peoples job.
I am still impressed that a lot of people here are still ignoring the fact that Iraq broke the law, by violating UN empossed sanctions. The punishment of said violations is and was enough for the UN to walk right in there and take over! Now the UN did not do this, after all UN personel wernt getting shot at, it was US and UK forces, along with a few others, note: the same people who are still getting shot at. So since the UN did nothing the US did, a bunch of people around the world didn't like it, but the people getting shot at liked it even less.
Hehe
We'll see
Quote:
Who is responsible for the US's actions? Someone who just lives there and makes a living or someone who takes up arms to enforce it's actions? *shrugs*
I have never been to the Gulf, let alone in combat. I didn't vote for Bush and enlisted before he took office, Sadam brought the sanctions down on his own people, the US didn't just pick his country at random.
WHR, read man read. Read what I say, if things are better than when Sadam was at his peek then things will be justified. Before the sanctions before all that BS happend 12-13 years ago. I agree with you that to compare 4-5 years from now to 4-5 years before all this happend isnt right and it should not be. It probably will be, that is just my opinion of how Bush thinks, but non the less it shouldn't be.
Frosty:
Quote:
it's already accepted that our intelligence data was way wrong, and considering the international attention that Iraq was getting we would know if conditions were that bad
Look bud, do you know any itel guys? I do, and I can't really grasp how the get the info they get. Hearing some of the stories that they tell... it boggles the mind, but you know what? I really doubt that anyone here knows a flip about the intel business.
Do yall like it when people rip on Poi with out ever seeing it or ever trying it? I don't, try to show the same professional curtosy when you talk about other peoples job.
I am still impressed that a lot of people here are still ignoring the fact that Iraq broke the law, by violating UN empossed sanctions. The punishment of said violations is and was enough for the UN to walk right in there and take over! Now the UN did not do this, after all UN personel wernt getting shot at, it was US and UK forces, along with a few others, note: the same people who are still getting shot at. So since the UN did nothing the US did, a bunch of people around the world didn't like it, but the people getting shot at liked it even less.
Hehe
Quote:
Would things be better in India? Or China? Or the Czech Republic? Mexico? Who knows
We'll see
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
GOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
Simian, that’s true I was careless in my choice of words, and I was not trying to be personal. Perhaps I should have said non-human. However, having said that, I’m calling Ray out on this one, because you can’t have it both ways. You are for or against it; no fence sitting.
Ray you may not have voted for Bush, but ALL you post’s indicate that you total support his regime, the invasion of Iraq, and all the associated human rights violation. Now, it’s just pure bullshit to turn around and say that just because you didn’t vote for Bush it’s not your fault. Mate (Bud) it didn’t work at Nuremberg, and it won’t work here.
If you think people are picking on poor little America, then it’s probably because America is not the magnanimous world citizen it pretends to be. We hear the “Free Trade” mantra from America, but so far all that means is America is free to trade anywhere in the world, but hey, when other countries want to trade in America, its no-way buddy, we have to protect our ailing agriculture and manufacturing sectors. We can discuss the implications Globalisation (Americanisation) on the third world another time.
In my mind, there is no way the invasion can be justified. The invasion was illegal; America went against the UN, and all the excuses use to justify the invasion were all cooked up at a later date. Now, if I killed the guy down the road because I thought he had an AK47 under the bed, then I would be tried for murder!
Now that Bush et al have been shown to be liars, they are using their Intelligence Services as scapegoats, as they have done with the media. We saw it in Australia when our national broadcaster, the ABC, was refused Gov funding for reporting the truth about the “children overboard” affair and the Iraq invasion, and we have see it recently with the BBC in England.
Simian, that’s true I was careless in my choice of words, and I was not trying to be personal. Perhaps I should have said non-human. However, having said that, I’m calling Ray out on this one, because you can’t have it both ways. You are for or against it; no fence sitting.
Ray you may not have voted for Bush, but ALL you post’s indicate that you total support his regime, the invasion of Iraq, and all the associated human rights violation. Now, it’s just pure bullshit to turn around and say that just because you didn’t vote for Bush it’s not your fault. Mate (Bud) it didn’t work at Nuremberg, and it won’t work here.
If you think people are picking on poor little America, then it’s probably because America is not the magnanimous world citizen it pretends to be. We hear the “Free Trade” mantra from America, but so far all that means is America is free to trade anywhere in the world, but hey, when other countries want to trade in America, its no-way buddy, we have to protect our ailing agriculture and manufacturing sectors. We can discuss the implications Globalisation (Americanisation) on the third world another time.
In my mind, there is no way the invasion can be justified. The invasion was illegal; America went against the UN, and all the excuses use to justify the invasion were all cooked up at a later date. Now, if I killed the guy down the road because I thought he had an AK47 under the bed, then I would be tried for murder!
Now that Bush et al have been shown to be liars, they are using their Intelligence Services as scapegoats, as they have done with the media. We saw it in Australia when our national broadcaster, the ABC, was refused Gov funding for reporting the truth about the “children overboard” affair and the Iraq invasion, and we have see it recently with the BBC in England.
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
Posted:
Bush is dumb, the war in Iraq is okay... conflicting ideas... possible. Does it really matter? No. Why? Because you have your opinions and I have mine. I can support what the man is doing without supporting the man. I don't know how to explain it any other way. I am at a loss for words, I thought I was clear... well if I am still cloudy as a tornado give me a PM and I will do my best to sort things out so that we are all back to the white picket fences and 2.5 kids.
Bush is dumb, the war in Iraq is okay... conflicting ideas... possible. Does it really matter? No. Why? Because you have your opinions and I have mine. I can support what the man is doing without supporting the man. I don't know how to explain it any other way. I am at a loss for words, I thought I was clear... well if I am still cloudy as a tornado give me a PM and I will do my best to sort things out so that we are all back to the white picket fences and 2.5 kids.
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
3,149 posts
Location: London
3,149 posts
Location: London
Posted:
Stone, i said i didn't see anything mean in your post. Anything i posted was with the aim of reducing the level of flying accusations, not raising it
But here's an accusation:
What a crock of [censored]!
You're telling me that if i think the war in Iraq may benefit it's people in the long run, that means i de facto support the Bush Regime and all its actions?
You is a crazy man.
My opinions:
US & UK were totally wrong to enter the war without sanction from the UN.
US & UK were wrong to grossly overstate the accuracy of their intelligence.
Over coming years the war will have saved more lives than were lost, thousands will be spared torture, and a vast number of people will not be living in fear.
on another note...
There's a difference between the justification required to go to war
and whether or not military action is, in the end, justified.
they're getting confused quite a lot here.
if the question really is "Did the US and UK have sufficient justification before going to war" then that's a no-brainer, they didn't.
They said Saddam was a danger, and he wasn't.
and finally...
Frosty say
So if Hitler hadn't invaded Poland and just sat in Germany getting on with his Solution, we shouldn't have done anything?
Hehe, those peaceniks don't like a WW2 analogy up 'em
Stone, i said i didn't see anything mean in your post. Anything i posted was with the aim of reducing the level of flying accusations, not raising it
But here's an accusation:
Quote:
You are for or against it; no fence sitting.
What a crock of [censored]!
You're telling me that if i think the war in Iraq may benefit it's people in the long run, that means i de facto support the Bush Regime and all its actions?
You is a crazy man.
My opinions:
US & UK were totally wrong to enter the war without sanction from the UN.
US & UK were wrong to grossly overstate the accuracy of their intelligence.
Over coming years the war will have saved more lives than were lost, thousands will be spared torture, and a vast number of people will not be living in fear.
on another note...
There's a difference between the justification required to go to war
and whether or not military action is, in the end, justified.
they're getting confused quite a lot here.
if the question really is "Did the US and UK have sufficient justification before going to war" then that's a no-brainer, they didn't.
They said Saddam was a danger, and he wasn't.
and finally...
Frosty say
Quote:
if "things might be better in five years than they were when they were REALLY bad" was sufficient justification for invading a country we're all in deep doodoo.
So if Hitler hadn't invaded Poland and just sat in Germany getting on with his Solution, we shouldn't have done anything?
Hehe, those peaceniks don't like a WW2 analogy up 'em
"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."
Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
Posted:
Folks some of yall still aint hearing me, the violations of UN sanctions was enough to go to war. Ignore the media hype of WMDs, that is the bottom line. Iraq could have been invaded years ago, but nobody really wanted to do it.
Violations of "No Fly Zones" is enough for a full military breach, even after the first Gulf War we had pilots getting shot down, that was a violation: end result, the US could have invaded THAT DAY! The UN didn't have to be asked, permission was already given.
Folks some of yall still aint hearing me, the violations of UN sanctions was enough to go to war. Ignore the media hype of WMDs, that is the bottom line. Iraq could have been invaded years ago, but nobody really wanted to do it.
Violations of "No Fly Zones" is enough for a full military breach, even after the first Gulf War we had pilots getting shot down, that was a violation: end result, the US could have invaded THAT DAY! The UN didn't have to be asked, permission was already given.
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
3,149 posts
Location: London
3,149 posts
Location: London
Posted:
Correction Ray, violation of UN sanctions is ground for action by the UN
Correction Ray, violation of UN sanctions is ground for action by the UN
"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."
Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
Posted:
Ehh it is it is if it aint it aint. Either way, the war should have happend years ago.
Ehh it is it is if it aint it aint. Either way, the war should have happend years ago.
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
Posted:
So shooting at US/UK aircraft doesnt constitute a reaction? Last I checked that was an act of war. Or am I mistaken?
So shooting at US/UK aircraft doesnt constitute a reaction? Last I checked that was an act of war. Or am I mistaken?
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
3,149 posts
Location: London
3,149 posts
Location: London
Posted:
Frosty say
The sanctions caused massive suffering, yes.
But Saddam's friendly local police force was torturing and murdering thousands of innocent people long before the sanctions started.
i heard some rumour that the iraqi police force currently being retrained are struggling with the concept of not torturing suspects ("how else do you get them to confess?")
Ray:
it's no good saying "this would have been a good enough justification for going to war"
if it wasn't used as the justification for going to war.
Civilised nations don't invade first and find the reasons afterwards.
Frosty say
Quote:
...the suffering in Iraq was due to the sanctions.
The sanctions caused massive suffering, yes.
But Saddam's friendly local police force was torturing and murdering thousands of innocent people long before the sanctions started.
i heard some rumour that the iraqi police force currently being retrained are struggling with the concept of not torturing suspects ("how else do you get them to confess?")
Ray:
it's no good saying "this would have been a good enough justification for going to war"
if it wasn't used as the justification for going to war.
Civilised nations don't invade first and find the reasons afterwards.
"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."
mULti-torTOISe
310 posts
Location: Kent currently, Cornwall soon, New Zealand eventua...
310 posts
Location: Kent currently, Cornwall soon, New Zealand eventua...
Posted:
Simian say:
Fortunately for the peaceniks, any analogy between this and Saddam was rendered void when we sent our guns, money and ambassadors (including good ol' Rumsfeld) to Iraq AFTER the chemical weapons attacks on the Kurds. I may have missed the point here though.
Simian say:
Quote:
So if Hitler hadn't invaded Poland and just sat in Germany getting on with his Solution, we shouldn't have done anything?
Hehe, those peaceniks don't like a WW2 analogy up 'em
Fortunately for the peaceniks, any analogy between this and Saddam was rendered void when we sent our guns, money and ambassadors (including good ol' Rumsfeld) to Iraq AFTER the chemical weapons attacks on the Kurds. I may have missed the point here though.
The Confusion Squid has many tentacles
110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
3,149 posts
Location: London
3,149 posts
Location: London
Posted:
My point was merely that there are (IMO) valid reasons to go to war even if a country is not a threat to those outside its borders.
i didn't mean that "if Hitler hadn't invaded Poland and just sat in Germany getting on with his Solution" was a similar situation to iraq in particular, and that justified the decision to go to war.
i repeat my often misunderstood position:
i think the US & UK were WRONG to go to war the way they did.
but
i think Iraq and it's people will be better off because of the war.
oh and just to clarify, (worried about offending his host for the next weekend ) the use of the word peacenik was in jest. i'd never use that word in seriousness.
My point was merely that there are (IMO) valid reasons to go to war even if a country is not a threat to those outside its borders.
i didn't mean that "if Hitler hadn't invaded Poland and just sat in Germany getting on with his Solution" was a similar situation to iraq in particular, and that justified the decision to go to war.
i repeat my often misunderstood position:
i think the US & UK were WRONG to go to war the way they did.
but
i think Iraq and it's people will be better off because of the war.
oh and just to clarify, (worried about offending his host for the next weekend
) the use of the word peacenik was in jest. i'd never use that word in seriousness. "Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."
BRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,009 posts
Location: Bristol, UK
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,009 posts
Location: Bristol, UK
Posted:
A quick one:
I love an analogy! There's a lot of similaities. The rest of the world did sit back and let Hitler get way with murder. When world attention was focused on Germany for the pre war Olympics the final solution was already under way and camps were being built just outside Berlin. The world knew and let it happen, and in some cases helped it along. The actions of our countries pre WW2 are shameful. We sat back and let a country annex other countries, limit civil liberties and run a racial hate campaign. And years on we're letting the US do it now
No, it wasn't. To be in violation of the UN means you need to face and answer to the UN, not any old cowboy. There are several other countries that have repeatedly broken UN resolutions and I don't see the US going after them, in fact in some cases I see the US doing good business with them, trying to tap a new, billion strong market for the Coca Cola Culture.
Check your history and you'll find many "acts of war" have been committed against countries, especially the US, and war hasn't started. So that's a pretty lame reason.
I know it's getting to be an old line, but the reason keeps going back to oil and profit. There are worse countries in the world, worse dictators and plenty of places for the US to act if they really do want to do, as GW says: "the right thing". But they don't. And the reason is that it doesn't profit the US to interfere in these places.
There simply was no prior justification for this war.
Sure, you can sit back and say that Iraq will be better off without Saddam. But you can never know how things would have gone if Saddam was left there, and sanctions weren't in place to destroy the country. And you're talking about a country that used to be the most advanced in the Middle East, and in some ways more advanced than the US in terms of education, healthcare. And oil production.
A quick one:
Quote:
Fortunately for the peaceniks, any analogy between this and Saddam was rendered void when we sent our guns, money and ambassadors (including good ol' Rumsfeld) to Iraq AFTER the chemical weapons attacks on the Kurds.
I love an analogy! There's a lot of similaities. The rest of the world did sit back and let Hitler get way with murder. When world attention was focused on Germany for the pre war Olympics the final solution was already under way and camps were being built just outside Berlin. The world knew and let it happen, and in some cases helped it along. The actions of our countries pre WW2 are shameful. We sat back and let a country annex other countries, limit civil liberties and run a racial hate campaign. And years on we're letting the US do it now
Quote:
the violations of UN sanctions was enough to go to war.
No, it wasn't. To be in violation of the UN means you need to face and answer to the UN, not any old cowboy. There are several other countries that have repeatedly broken UN resolutions and I don't see the US going after them, in fact in some cases I see the US doing good business with them, trying to tap a new, billion strong market for the Coca Cola Culture.
Quote:
So shooting at US/UK aircraft doesnt constitute a reaction? Last I checked that was an act of war.
Check your history and you'll find many "acts of war" have been committed against countries, especially the US, and war hasn't started. So that's a pretty lame reason.
I know it's getting to be an old line, but the reason keeps going back to oil and profit. There are worse countries in the world, worse dictators and plenty of places for the US to act if they really do want to do, as GW says: "the right thing". But they don't. And the reason is that it doesn't profit the US to interfere in these places.
There simply was no prior justification for this war.
Sure, you can sit back and say that Iraq will be better off without Saddam. But you can never know how things would have gone if Saddam was left there, and sanctions weren't in place to destroy the country. And you're talking about a country that used to be the most advanced in the Middle East, and in some ways more advanced than the US in terms of education, healthcare. And oil production.
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