Forums > Social Discussion > A Question of Choice
Login/Join to ParticipateSILVER Member
veteran
1,433 posts
Location: 8 days at Cloudbreak, 6 in Perth, Australia
veteran
1,433 posts
Location: 8 days at Cloudbreak, 6 in Perth, Australia
Posted:
A question was put to me recently that has left me to ponder...what would I, should I do. This is something rather close to my heart.
So here is my question to you all.
Say you were born with a specific gene in your body that was identified at a young age.
Now this gene meant that you had the chance of passing on a form of deformity to any children that you may have (each time you had a child the chance of passing this deformity on increased). This deformity would be recognisable to people, though they may not know what it was they would cretainly see that this person is different.
Then the child would have to go through extensive surgeries (not one but many) to rectify this problem, which would mean lots of pain and constant care from doctors, nurses and the parents.
Knowing how cruel the world can be in today's day and age over even the smallest difference and knowing that you would be putting this child through mental and physical pain....
Would you, could you or should you even consider the option of having children?
A question was put to me recently that has left me to ponder...what would I, should I do. This is something rather close to my heart.
So here is my question to you all.
Say you were born with a specific gene in your body that was identified at a young age.
Now this gene meant that you had the chance of passing on a form of deformity to any children that you may have (each time you had a child the chance of passing this deformity on increased). This deformity would be recognisable to people, though they may not know what it was they would cretainly see that this person is different.
Then the child would have to go through extensive surgeries (not one but many) to rectify this problem, which would mean lots of pain and constant care from doctors, nurses and the parents.
Knowing how cruel the world can be in today's day and age over even the smallest difference and knowing that you would be putting this child through mental and physical pain....
Would you, could you or should you even consider the option of having children?
Scientist of Fortune
1,189 posts
Location: Edinburgh
1,189 posts
Location: Edinburgh
Posted:
But the child itself suffers.
But the child itself suffers.
According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...
Dealing in Perception & Probability
135 posts
Location: On the edge of sunrise and sunset
135 posts
Location: On the edge of sunrise and sunset
Posted:
that's a strong statemnet jeff. while yes the probability that there will be suffering is high, one could argue we all suffer. life is suffering, but suffering ends.
any child will be harassed, and picked on. that's just life. what matters are the leasons the parents teach the child. how to deal adversity, hate, and discrimination. all strong leasons, that a child with and dissability learns faster than most adults.........
again like you just playing advocate on that point...
that's a strong statemnet jeff. while yes the probability that there will be suffering is high, one could argue we all suffer. life is suffering, but suffering ends.
any child will be harassed, and picked on. that's just life. what matters are the leasons the parents teach the child. how to deal adversity, hate, and discrimination. all strong leasons, that a child with and dissability learns faster than most adults.........
again like you just playing advocate on that point...
Legal and illegal are a point of view. All that matters is morality.
If there's a shadow in your life, then there is also sunshine. Perception is everything.
BRONZE Member
Pooh-Bah
1,762 posts
Location: York University, United Kingdom
Pooh-Bah
1,762 posts
Location: York University, United Kingdom
Posted:
But if everyone suffers, why do you want to create another person who will suffer, when you can take someone who is already suffering, and help them suffer less?
Example: We acknowledge everyone suffers. Let's say the "Average" person has a suffering score of 50.
You can choose to have a child of your own, which will almost certainly be born with, say, a score of 80 on it's suffering scale due to his/her deformity (at least for the first 18 years of their life, if not longer).
Or you could adopt a child whose suffering score is currently 80, then help to reduce that suffering by giving them a loving family which will support them.
So, through birth, you have a total suffering of 160 (the child you have, and the child that remains unadopted), whereas if you adopt then you have a suffering score of 80 that will hopefully get gradually reduced.
Going on average, adoption will lead to less suffering for the child. Note I haven't involved the suffering of the parents, and these are just broad averages.
That's why I would adopt
(Although I understand why people want to have their own kids, and I'm not [god forbid] saying that parents who choose to have their own children are negligent or whatever)
But if everyone suffers, why do you want to create another person who will suffer, when you can take someone who is already suffering, and help them suffer less?
Example: We acknowledge everyone suffers. Let's say the "Average" person has a suffering score of 50.
You can choose to have a child of your own, which will almost certainly be born with, say, a score of 80 on it's suffering scale due to his/her deformity (at least for the first 18 years of their life, if not longer).
Or you could adopt a child whose suffering score is currently 80, then help to reduce that suffering by giving them a loving family which will support them.
So, through birth, you have a total suffering of 160 (the child you have, and the child that remains unadopted), whereas if you adopt then you have a suffering score of 80 that will hopefully get gradually reduced.
Going on average, adoption will lead to less suffering for the child. Note I haven't involved the suffering of the parents, and these are just broad averages.
That's why I would adopt
(Although I understand why people want to have their own kids, and I'm not [god forbid] saying that parents who choose to have their own children are negligent or whatever)
After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
Dealing in Perception & Probability
135 posts
Location: On the edge of sunrise and sunset
135 posts
Location: On the edge of sunrise and sunset
Posted:
i totaly agree with you sethis. i was just doing what i do. pointing out diff perceptions. and playing devils advocate to jeff...turn about being fair play and all
i totaly agree with you sethis. i was just doing what i do. pointing out diff perceptions. and playing devils advocate to jeff...turn about being fair play and all
Legal and illegal are a point of view. All that matters is morality.
If there's a shadow in your life, then there is also sunshine. Perception is everything.
BRONZE Member
1 + 1 = 3
3,540 posts
Location: Bristol UK
1 + 1 = 3
3,540 posts
Location: Bristol UK
Posted:
I have to Totally Disagree with this. If Love is born out of a child, then you're in a relationship you really shouldn't be in, IMO.
If you're relationship is so bad, that you think the only way to save it is by having/adopting a child, and hoping that it will heal the relationship, then I would get out of it. That's a lot of pressure to put on that Kid. Because the likelihood is that it will all end badly anyway.
Maybe you just worded it wrong, or I misunderstood, I dunno...
Written by: Str8Jakit
There is another way to think about. love is born out of a child.
I have to Totally Disagree with this. If Love is born out of a child, then you're in a relationship you really shouldn't be in, IMO.
If you're relationship is so bad, that you think the only way to save it is by having/adopting a child, and hoping that it will heal the relationship, then I would get out of it. That's a lot of pressure to put on that Kid. Because the likelihood is that it will all end badly anyway.
Maybe you just worded it wrong, or I misunderstood, I dunno...
Empty your mind. Be formless, Shapeless, like Water.
Put Water into a cup, it becomes the cup, put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle, put water into a teapot, it becomes the teapot.
Water can flow, or it can Crash.
Be Water My Friend.
Dealing in Perception & Probability
135 posts
Location: On the edge of sunrise and sunset
135 posts
Location: On the edge of sunrise and sunset
Posted:
no it was i who worded it wrong. i didn't mean the relationship the child is born into, i mean love itself is born from the child. you will love your child. however you come to have one, love will be born from the bond that is shared.
now before someone comes in here to say other wise. i am not talking about all the parents out there who don't take their kids as gifts, and abuse them. i know what i just said could be disputed on such grounds. but for this thread, let's not.
no it was i who worded it wrong. i didn't mean the relationship the child is born into, i mean love itself is born from the child. you will love your child. however you come to have one, love will be born from the bond that is shared.
now before someone comes in here to say other wise. i am not talking about all the parents out there who don't take their kids as gifts, and abuse them. i know what i just said could be disputed on such grounds. but for this thread, let's not.
Legal and illegal are a point of view. All that matters is morality.
If there's a shadow in your life, then there is also sunshine. Perception is everything.
Scientist of Fortune
1,189 posts
Location: Edinburgh
1,189 posts
Location: Edinburgh
Posted:
Written by: Leaning_Towards_CorruptionI think he was talking about the love between the parent and the child rather than between the parents. I don't want to put words in his mouth but I think you have misunderstood the post.Written by: Str8JakitI have to Totally Disagree with this. If Love is born out of a child, then you're in a relationship you really shouldn't be in, IMO.
There is another way to think about. love is born out of a child.
If you're relationship is so bad, that you think the only way to save it is by having/adopting a child, and hoping that it will heal the relationship, then I would get out of it. That's a lot of pressure to put on that Kid. Because the likelihood is that it will all end badly anyway.
Maybe you just worded it wrong, or I misunderstood, I dunno...
According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...
BRONZE Member
Pooh-Bah
1,762 posts
Location: York University, United Kingdom
Pooh-Bah
1,762 posts
Location: York University, United Kingdom
Posted:
Despite the misinterpretation of the post, his point still stands. I have known people (mostly 17-19 year olds) who are rocky grounds with their relationship and deliberately try to get pregnant to magically "Improve" the relationship. Of course the vast majority of the time the father gets lost real fast.
Makes you wonder who invented monogamy in the first place
Despite the misinterpretation of the post, his point still stands. I have known people (mostly 17-19 year olds) who are rocky grounds with their relationship and deliberately try to get pregnant to magically "Improve" the relationship. Of course the vast majority of the time the father gets lost real fast.
Makes you wonder who invented monogamy in the first place
After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
SILVER Member
member
157 posts
Location: Halifax, NS, Canada
member
157 posts
Location: Halifax, NS, Canada
Posted:
After reading this discussion, I feel I must chime in here.
You see, I am adopted. When I was 7, my parents told me about it. I was not deeply traumatized or heartbroken over it, as they were very gentle in telling me. They said that they had wanted a child of their own, but were unable to have one, so they decided to adopt. My biological mother was a university student, and the sperm donor was no longer in the picture. She believed that a child was better off with two parents in a stable family, and so she made sure I was adopted to one. She herself was adopted and believed that the system was a good one.
Like I said, I was not traumatized by this. And I feel no anger toward my biological mother for "giving me up". I recognize that she did what she felt was best for both our lives- mine and hers.
I remember my parents giving me an age-appropriate book on adoption which talked about how love was what was really important in a family.
Ultimately I feel that love is what builds families, not simple DNA.
If it were me in the hypothetical story that started this thread, I would not have that child. Sure, a person may feel wonder and satisfaction from a pregnancy, but what about that child? Is the parent's wonder and satisfaction more important than that child's pain and suffering?
I've been called selfish for not wanting children. But which is more selfish? Making an informed choice not to have kids for whatever reason, or having them no matter what the cost, just so you can feel satisfied or what-have-you?
And if biology is really so important, then why do so many kids get abused by their parents, the same ones who gave birth to them? It's a huge question with no easy answers, but I really do wish that more people would put some thought into the choice to become parents or not, instead of insisting that they have to have their own flesh and blood ( I was once verbally attacked for saying that if I did have kids, I would adopt), or that it's everyone's duty to reproduce.
I know that if more people thought about this, there would be alot fewer abused kids in the world.
PS- I think the husband in the aforementioned example who insists on his own flesh and blood above his wife's valid concern with passing on a nasty deformity is very selfish. Pressure his wife to violate her conscience and condemn the child to suffering just so he can have what he wants? What is wrong with that picture?
After reading this discussion, I feel I must chime in here.
You see, I am adopted. When I was 7, my parents told me about it. I was not deeply traumatized or heartbroken over it, as they were very gentle in telling me. They said that they had wanted a child of their own, but were unable to have one, so they decided to adopt. My biological mother was a university student, and the sperm donor was no longer in the picture. She believed that a child was better off with two parents in a stable family, and so she made sure I was adopted to one. She herself was adopted and believed that the system was a good one.
Like I said, I was not traumatized by this. And I feel no anger toward my biological mother for "giving me up". I recognize that she did what she felt was best for both our lives- mine and hers.
I remember my parents giving me an age-appropriate book on adoption which talked about how love was what was really important in a family.
Ultimately I feel that love is what builds families, not simple DNA.
If it were me in the hypothetical story that started this thread, I would not have that child. Sure, a person may feel wonder and satisfaction from a pregnancy, but what about that child? Is the parent's wonder and satisfaction more important than that child's pain and suffering?
I've been called selfish for not wanting children. But which is more selfish? Making an informed choice not to have kids for whatever reason, or having them no matter what the cost, just so you can feel satisfied or what-have-you?
And if biology is really so important, then why do so many kids get abused by their parents, the same ones who gave birth to them? It's a huge question with no easy answers, but I really do wish that more people would put some thought into the choice to become parents or not, instead of insisting that they have to have their own flesh and blood ( I was once verbally attacked for saying that if I did have kids, I would adopt), or that it's everyone's duty to reproduce.
I know that if more people thought about this, there would be alot fewer abused kids in the world.
PS- I think the husband in the aforementioned example who insists on his own flesh and blood above his wife's valid concern with passing on a nasty deformity is very selfish. Pressure his wife to violate her conscience and condemn the child to suffering just so he can have what he wants? What is wrong with that picture?
"Do not meddle in the affairs of Tower Cranes, for you are soft and would look better when squashed by a full concrete bucket"
SILVER Member
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
Posted:
well written Amanita, i agree with you
what a rediculous thing for that person to say! i understand that physically our body wants to reproduce, but logically the world is over inhabited by humans, there is no neccessity for everyone to reproduce! (let alone Duty)
well written Amanita, i agree with you
Written by: Amanita
it's everyone's duty to reproduce.
what a rediculous thing for that person to say! i understand that physically our body wants to reproduce, but logically the world is over inhabited by humans, there is no neccessity for everyone to reproduce! (let alone Duty)
"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"
jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley
BRONZE Member
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Posted:
I haven't read all of these posts, but has anyone mentioned the hyperthetical like this one
(now I'm going to get it a bit wrong but the idea is still there) A woman with syphillis has had 7 children. 4 are deaf. 2 have syphillis. 1 is blind. She is pregnant again. Do you strongly advice an abortion?
And basically, this woman existed and the 8th child was Ludvig Beethoven.
I haven't read all of these posts, but has anyone mentioned the hyperthetical like this one
(now I'm going to get it a bit wrong but the idea is still there) A woman with syphillis has had 7 children. 4 are deaf. 2 have syphillis. 1 is blind. She is pregnant again. Do you strongly advice an abortion?
And basically, this woman existed and the 8th child was Ludvig Beethoven.
i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey
Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...
Dealing in Perception & Probability
135 posts
Location: On the edge of sunrise and sunset
135 posts
Location: On the edge of sunrise and sunset
Posted:
so it's hyperthetical, but true?
ok rouge i kind of see your point, but if you could clear it up a little that would be great. and asking if anyone would advise this woman to get an abortion, that's a loaded question. no matter what any one of us put, there's going to be someone ready to jump them for their opinion......
so it's hyperthetical, but true?
ok rouge i kind of see your point, but if you could clear it up a little that would be great. and asking if anyone would advise this woman to get an abortion, that's a loaded question. no matter what any one of us put, there's going to be someone ready to jump them for their opinion......
Legal and illegal are a point of view. All that matters is morality.
If there's a shadow in your life, then there is also sunshine. Perception is everything.
newbie
2 posts
2 posts
Posted:
What about the other 7 poor children who's life would have been hell? So she had one child that turned out good? The others would have suffered.
What about the other 7 poor children who's life would have been hell? So she had one child that turned out good? The others would have suffered.
BRONZE Member
Pooh-Bah
1,762 posts
Location: York University, United Kingdom
Pooh-Bah
1,762 posts
Location: York University, United Kingdom
Posted:
I wouldn't have recommended an abortion, I would have recommended she didn't have children in the first place.
I wouldn't have recommended an abortion, I would have recommended she didn't have children in the first place.
After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
Scientist of Fortune
1,189 posts
Location: Edinburgh
1,189 posts
Location: Edinburgh
Posted:
Written by: FyreFlyBest newbie post I've ever read!
What about the other 7 poor children who's life would have been hell? So she had one child that turned out good? The others would have suffered.
According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...
BRONZE Member
Pooh-Bah
1,762 posts
Location: York University, United Kingdom
Pooh-Bah
1,762 posts
Location: York University, United Kingdom
Posted:
Pay attention jeff, s/he registered before you did! Maybe s/he just doesn't post much 
Pay attention jeff, s/he registered before you did! Maybe s/he just doesn't post much
After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
BRONZE Member
newbie
21 posts
Location: Arizona, USA
newbie
21 posts
Location: Arizona, USA
Posted:
I believe that child raising involves complete selflessness - you need to put the needs of your theoretical child before yourself, always, period. I also believe that genes don’t have anything to do with the worth of ones child - my stepmother was my closest parent. And really, I believe that if you would rather have a baby with your genes that will doom it to taunting and hardship, then you are putting your own desires before the theoretical child's. Tens of thousands of babies and children go unadopted every year all over the world. I can't think of anything more beautiful, giving and loving than saving a baby from an agonizing death, or miserable life at best.
However, I’m someone who believes that there are dangerously too many people on the planet, and who would adopt a girl from China if I ever wanted a child (which I probably never will).
I believe that child raising involves complete selflessness - you need to put the needs of your theoretical child before yourself, always, period. I also believe that genes don’t have anything to do with the worth of ones child - my stepmother was my closest parent. And really, I believe that if you would rather have a baby with your genes that will doom it to taunting and hardship, then you are putting your own desires before the theoretical child's. Tens of thousands of babies and children go unadopted every year all over the world. I can't think of anything more beautiful, giving and loving than saving a baby from an agonizing death, or miserable life at best.
However, I’m someone who believes that there are dangerously too many people on the planet, and who would adopt a girl from China if I ever wanted a child (which I probably never will).
Love is the prerogative of the brave.
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