Forums > Technical Discussion > Acrobatic Momentum Abuse - the high, high jump?
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517 posts
Location: Sheffield, England
517 posts
Location: Sheffield, England
Posted:
This is a daft(ish) over representation of a principal that could massively aid acrobatics / strange dance manouvres If looked into.
Would work best with heavier, longer poi (more mommentum to 'play' with).
That could be taken to the extreme with the following idea:
Poi with 'inward / centripetal' acting air resistance. This would decrease cord 'tension' and make all moves potentially much faster, or make much heavier structures more 'spinnable'
Basically........
Upward double / single type stally moves for a very high jump.
That principal could be applied to a massively effective and vairied extent (not just vertical!) even with averagly weighted props I think...
Any thoughts?
Jo.
This is a daft(ish) over representation of a principal that could massively aid acrobatics / strange dance manouvres If looked into.
Would work best with heavier, longer poi (more mommentum to 'play' with).
That could be taken to the extreme with the following idea:
Poi with 'inward / centripetal' acting air resistance. This would decrease cord 'tension' and make all moves potentially much faster, or make much heavier structures more 'spinnable'
Basically........
Upward double / single type stally moves for a very high jump.
That principal could be applied to a massively effective and vairied extent (not just vertical!) even with averagly weighted props I think...
Any thoughts?
Jo.
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BRONZE Member
2,530 posts
Location: Manchester, United Kingdom
2,530 posts
Location: Manchester, United Kingdom
Posted:
do you mean having a stall at the top of the spin, or in the top half? instead of the usual bottom half of the spin stalls?
do you mean having a stall at the top of the spin, or in the top half? instead of the usual bottom half of the spin stalls?
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member
517 posts
Location: Sheffield, England
517 posts
Location: Sheffield, England
Posted:
In the context of the example, an upwards stab of the poi (and draw back downwards) whilst jumping.
However, that's just an example to illustrate how the mommentum of the poi could be used to aid body movement (either subtly or quite strangely)
Jo.
In the context of the example, an upwards stab of the poi (and draw back downwards) whilst jumping.
However, that's just an example to illustrate how the mommentum of the poi could be used to aid body movement (either subtly or quite strangely)
Jo.
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BRONZE Member
2,530 posts
Location: Manchester, United Kingdom
2,530 posts
Location: Manchester, United Kingdom
Posted:
so you're proposing that if you jump as the poi are rising in their circle that it may give the person a slightly higher jump due to momentum created by the poi?
i think it could be possible in the way that if you tied a big rock to your arm, and then threw it off a cliff, if it was heavier than the force keeping keeping you there, then it pulls you off the cliff. so if the force pulling you upwards was greater than the forces of gravity then it may temporerily keep you up in the air, but then you may also land much heavier due to the poi's rotation pulling you back down.
it's quite a strange subject so i won't bore you by talking for hours.
so you're proposing that if you jump as the poi are rising in their circle that it may give the person a slightly higher jump due to momentum created by the poi?
i think it could be possible in the way that if you tied a big rock to your arm, and then threw it off a cliff, if it was heavier than the force keeping keeping you there, then it pulls you off the cliff. so if the force pulling you upwards was greater than the forces of gravity then it may temporerily keep you up in the air, but then you may also land much heavier due to the poi's rotation pulling you back down.
it's quite a strange subject so i won't bore you by talking for hours.
We are the music makers, We are the dreamers of dreams,
Wandering by lone sea-breakers, And sitting by desolate streams;
World-losers and world-forsakers, On whom the pale moon gleams;
We are the movers and shakers of the world for ever, it seems.
member
517 posts
Location: Sheffield, England
517 posts
Location: Sheffield, England
Posted:
It's a principal that everyones hard-wired 'balance' sensors account for naturally.
It hasn't been touched yet though really because most use of it is incidental.
By focusing on it, rather than the appearance of the spinning. I think it could be harnessed in some quite mad ways.
Another example could be, simply holding both poi in front of you and turning your body on the spot. The 'pull' of the poi will force your body to lean back to balance.
Using fast stalls, though, all of the poi's energy could be forced in one direction allowing brief 'improbable' looking postures or manouvres.
simplified maths example:
poi = 500g, 1m (heavy, long)
spinning at 3 beats per second (fast)
speed = (Pi)*2*3 m/s ~= 20m/s
assume stall is 0.5 metre from 'circle breakout' to speed = 0
assume stall takes 0.1 seconds
accelleration = -400 m/s/s
F = M * -400
F = 0.5 * -400
F = 200 N in each poi
So, should be possible to get about a 40 kg force for 0.1 seconds.
Sounds usable don't it?
Jo.
It's a principal that everyones hard-wired 'balance' sensors account for naturally.
It hasn't been touched yet though really because most use of it is incidental.
By focusing on it, rather than the appearance of the spinning. I think it could be harnessed in some quite mad ways.
Another example could be, simply holding both poi in front of you and turning your body on the spot. The 'pull' of the poi will force your body to lean back to balance.
Using fast stalls, though, all of the poi's energy could be forced in one direction allowing brief 'improbable' looking postures or manouvres.
simplified maths example:
poi = 500g, 1m (heavy, long)
spinning at 3 beats per second (fast)
speed = (Pi)*2*3 m/s ~= 20m/s
assume stall is 0.5 metre from 'circle breakout' to speed = 0
assume stall takes 0.1 seconds
accelleration = -400 m/s/s
F = M * -400
F = 0.5 * -400
F = 200 N in each poi
So, should be possible to get about a 40 kg force for 0.1 seconds.
Sounds usable don't it?
Jo.
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GOLD Member
Pooh-Bah
2,109 posts
Location: Philadelphia, PA - USA
Pooh-Bah
2,109 posts
Location: Philadelphia, PA - USA
Posted:
Something just tells me this wont work. Im no scientist so I cant say why, but it just sounds kinda impossible. I always tried a similar jump on elevators - If you jump when an upwards moving elevator stops, you should be able to jump higher right? Never worked for me though. I really think that any poi heavy enough to pull you upwards would be too heavy to spin, and even if it were possible, I think Havokist has a point in that the force would pull you down harder/faster than normal. That in itself is what would probably counteract the attempt IMO. I think this would be an olympic sport if it were possible hehe.
Something just tells me this wont work. Im no scientist so I cant say why, but it just sounds kinda impossible. I always tried a similar jump on elevators - If you jump when an upwards moving elevator stops, you should be able to jump higher right? Never worked for me though. I really think that any poi heavy enough to pull you upwards would be too heavy to spin, and even if it were possible, I think Havokist has a point in that the force would pull you down harder/faster than normal. That in itself is what would probably counteract the attempt IMO. I think this would be an olympic sport if it were possible hehe.
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member
517 posts
Location: Sheffield, England
517 posts
Location: Sheffield, England
Posted:
It will work. The question is only how much.
Could use it for some really nice posture and turning effects at the least, but yeah, superhuman-ness may be a little far fetched.
Jo.
EDITED_BY: Jo (1110412060)
It will work. The question is only how much.
Could use it for some really nice posture and turning effects at the least, but yeah, superhuman-ness may be a little far fetched.
Jo.
EDITED_BY: Jo (1110412060)
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veteran
1,359 posts
Location: London/ Surrey
1,359 posts
Location: London/ Surrey
Posted:
Not the same as in a lift, because a lift moves too slowly. Put something on the flat of your hand and lift it slowly, it just lifts. Lift it fast, it flies upwards...
Try jumping with your arms by your sides, then jumping swinging your arms upwards at the same time... the arms add momentum, poi would add more, I think was the point... although I'm very tired and bad at maths anyway...*wanders off muttering*
Not the same as in a lift, because a lift moves too slowly. Put something on the flat of your hand and lift it slowly, it just lifts. Lift it fast, it flies upwards...
Try jumping with your arms by your sides, then jumping swinging your arms upwards at the same time... the arms add momentum, poi would add more, I think was the point... although I'm very tired and bad at maths anyway...*wanders off muttering*
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SILVER Member
Scientist!
578 posts
Location: Waterloo, Ontario, Canada
Scientist!
578 posts
Location: Waterloo, Ontario, Canada
Posted:
Jo, I see where you're coming from, but to get enough power from the poi to give any noticable aid would take an incredible speed, and even then, would it be worth having such a heavy poi just for doing the jump?
Jo, I see where you're coming from, but to get enough power from the poi to give any noticable aid would take an incredible speed, and even then, would it be worth having such a heavy poi just for doing the jump?
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GOLD Member
ARRRR!
529 posts
Location: Charlotte, NC, USA
ARRRR!
529 posts
Location: Charlotte, NC, USA
Posted:
Swinging poi heavy enough to have a noticeable effect on how high you jump would require immense strength. I have a set of uber heavy long chain monkey fists that are a pain in the arse to swing and attempting what you describe I see no perceptible improvement in my height. My arms almost pulled out of their sockets though
Maybe if you combined some type of elastic cords you could achieve better results but then it would almost be like a yo-yo. I bet you could get some pretty interesting patterns with elastic cords.
Edit: Doh! ImmortalAngel just said what I was thinking.
Swinging poi heavy enough to have a noticeable effect on how high you jump would require immense strength. I have a set of uber heavy long chain monkey fists that are a pain in the arse to swing and attempting what you describe I see no perceptible improvement in my height. My arms almost pulled out of their sockets though
Maybe if you combined some type of elastic cords you could achieve better results but then it would almost be like a yo-yo. I bet you could get some pretty interesting patterns with elastic cords.
Edit: Doh! ImmortalAngel just said what I was thinking.
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member
517 posts
Location: Sheffield, England
517 posts
Location: Sheffield, England
Posted:
I was only illustrating my point with the high jump thing. The force generated is negligable compared to two buttocks pumping....
I think the principal could be used best for turns and leans against all 'natural' sense of flow.
?
Jo.
Written by: Jo
Could use it for some really nice posture and turning effects at the least, but yeah, superhuman-ness may be a little far fetched.
Jo.
I was only illustrating my point with the high jump thing. The force generated is negligable compared to two buttocks pumping....
I think the principal could be used best for turns and leans against all 'natural' sense of flow.
?
Jo.
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GOLD Member
still can't believe it's not butter
6,978 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
still can't believe it's not butter
6,978 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
the magnitude of the mass is all wrong,
it would take an obscenely large firetoy, staff or otherwise to create the momentum that is created from the principle sources in acrobatics (at least in the way i do acro), the fierce whipping of the arms, legs (including jumping, hand springs) and torso twisting.
besides, even if some were to use a heavy firetoy for use in such extravagant acrobatics, the issue would remain of how to stop such heavy, flammable equipment.
nice concept otherwise! acrofwirling is beautiful.
the magnitude of the mass is all wrong,
it would take an obscenely large firetoy, staff or otherwise to create the momentum that is created from the principle sources in acrobatics (at least in the way i do acro), the fierce whipping of the arms, legs (including jumping, hand springs) and torso twisting.
besides, even if some were to use a heavy firetoy for use in such extravagant acrobatics, the issue would remain of how to stop such heavy, flammable equipment.
nice concept otherwise! acrofwirling is beautiful.
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member
517 posts
Location: Sheffield, England
517 posts
Location: Sheffield, England
Posted:
Now there's an Acrobat I trust How r u mate?
So do you find your moves as easy with or without the staffs?
or do you find the stability of principals like these give you a bit extra?
Jo.
Oh, you still on a mender?
I hope not bad still - back in action at all? 
EDITED_BY: Jo (1110452826)
Now there's an Acrobat I trust
How r u mate?So do you find your moves as easy with or without the staffs?
or do you find the stability of principals like these give you a bit extra?
Jo.
Oh, you still on a mender?
I hope not bad still - back in action at all? EDITED_BY: Jo (1110452826)
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SILVER Member
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
Posted:
don't think this works dude.
if you resolve the forces for normal spinning and compare with those required to 'stop' or stall a poi (much more complicated and confusing bt the way!) you should see why.
if the poi were heavy enough to lift you up during a stall, then you would be easily pulled over by the forces created by simply spinning them around.
cool idea though
cole. x
don't think this works dude.if you resolve the forces for normal spinning and compare with those required to 'stop' or stall a poi (much more complicated and confusing bt the way!) you should see why.
if the poi were heavy enough to lift you up during a stall, then you would be easily pulled over by the forces created by simply spinning them around.
cool idea though
cole. x
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member
517 posts
Location: Sheffield, England
517 posts
Location: Sheffield, England
Posted:
Oh well, can but dream...
In fact, sod it, I'm gunna go daydream.
*grabs tv and monitor by the scruff of their flexes and marches outside*
Jo.
Oh well, can but dream...
In fact, sod it, I'm gunna go daydream.
*grabs tv and monitor by the scruff of their flexes and marches outside*
Jo.
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