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brodiemanold hand
1,024 posts
Location: london


Posted:
Well i have been on hot or not loads in recient meeting even more peeps yay (some really hot ones too.. hemm..)
well neways was chatting online to a exceptionally hot girl in america (dont worry girlfriend is fully aware) and she is into all that white power crap, its just thats she was really alternative, i would of thought she would know how it feels to be judged by your apperences. hum i gave a speech and left it as that. frown
What i wanted to know, do people assosate metal with those types of views?? i really hope not??
opinions and thoughts??

mtbeerGOLD Member
ARRRR!
529 posts
Location: Charlotte, NC, USA


Posted:
Not here anyway. All the metal shows I go to have a little bit of everything. Every now and then you see a few skin heads in the pit with swastika tattoos but they usually take a heavy beating for it. About ten years ago there were a lot more but they are a dying breed.
Metal for the masses!
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"My skin is singed but it heals my heart and with glowing pride I'll wear my scars." -Davey Havok


polytheneveteran
1,359 posts
Location: London/ Surrey


Posted:
Not me! I like a good metal/ rock night, and many of my friends do, but none of them (or myself) have those kind of views smile

The optimist claims that we are living in the best of all possible worlds.
The pessimist fears this is true.

Always make time to play in the snow.


Wild ChildSILVER Member
Star Trekker
1,733 posts
Location: Cheshire, United Kingdom


Posted:
Written by: brodieman


its just thats she was really alternative, i would of thought she would know how it feels to be judged by your apperences.




Sadly, you can't judge a racist by their cover or any other -ist, I know many 'hippies' who are completely unscrupulous when it comes to money and possessions which seems such a paradox to me.

'The last rays of crimson on the spindle tree as the cerise fruit splits and reveals its orange seeds in a gloriously clashing colour scheme no-one would ever dare to wear'
Euonymous Europeus


Burning Braineye shifter
321 posts
Location: between my headphones


Posted:
i would actually say yes, just because of the mind that true metal fans have. many of my friends go to belmont university, which is a big music school and half the people play guitar. these few understand the time changes and amount of skill it takes to play some of the thrash metal. the connection to racism is that their minds have developed in a way to see the subtle differences in things such as thrash metal. and from this you can see that they may see, in everyday things, subtle differences that stand out to them. so to them it is a significant difference while to others it may be small and insignificant.

but, and this is a big but, these people only see others as different and not inferior.

If I could be granted one wish I would ask for all the questions of the universe.


polytheneveteran
1,359 posts
Location: London/ Surrey


Posted:
By that logic, wine connoiseurs, poi jedis and almost any kind of expert in any field would have that 'type of mind'.

The optimist claims that we are living in the best of all possible worlds.
The pessimist fears this is true.

Always make time to play in the snow.


Burning Braineye shifter
321 posts
Location: between my headphones


Posted:
i wouldnt say so. you have to be an appreciator. just because someone can do something really well doesnt mean that they can see other tellent. plus there are some people who can appear tellented...like ashley simpson. sure they may have a voice but i bet they couldnt keep up with a beat. i know a guy who could play better than Yngwie but couldnt play with anyone else because he didnt understand the music.

so...i would say theres a difference between skill and understanding. and those people with a better understanding are those im talking about.

If I could be granted one wish I would ask for all the questions of the universe.


polytheneveteran
1,359 posts
Location: London/ Surrey


Posted:
That's why I said 'connoiseur' and 'expert', i.e. those who are knowledgeable rather than necessarily having a talent for doing something (disregard the 'jedi' example if that helps). Plus the topic is racism, not being able to see differences, and certainly not those 'with a better understanding'. Not is metal music associated with 'people with a better understanding', but is it associated with RACISM.

The optimist claims that we are living in the best of all possible worlds.
The pessimist fears this is true.

Always make time to play in the snow.


DomBRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,009 posts
Location: Bristol, UK


Posted:
I think in every group of people you'll get a wide range of mindsets, regardless of what brings them together. Assuming all people of one social subset are the same is a stereotype and generally stereotypes only have some truth to them.

It is odd to know how to react when you find out someone you thought you were on the same wavelength comes out with a completely different view to you. I try to see it as an opportunity to explore thier opinions and spot and for the 'flaws' I percieve in them in myself.

Burning Braineye shifter
321 posts
Location: between my headphones


Posted:
your right polythene...



Is metal music associated with RACISM?



yes.



did you say you listened to metal poly?

If I could be granted one wish I would ask for all the questions of the universe.


PK_BRONZE Member
Lambretta Fanatic
4,996 posts
Location: United Kingdom


Posted:
i was given a 70's white power polo shirt... i still have it, it was a gift from my best mate at the time.. he was an old school punk / blood and honour member.
I still have that shirt in mint condition, have never worn it... it is just there!. im sure some nazi would love to offer me some cash for it... ebay seems to be a hole for nazi memorabilia.

i also still own some screwdriver cd's some where.

PK.

"To be an angel, one need not have wings.
In giving love there is an equal grace.
Nor need one seek the aura in the face,
As love unveils the beauty of all things."

*Francois Couperin.


JauntyJamesSILVER Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,533 posts
Location: Hampshire College, MA, USA


Posted:
nothing wrong with promoting white power, just as long as you're not putting down the other ethnicities while you're at it

-James

"How do you know if you're happy or sad without a mask? Or angry? Or ready for dessert?"


Burning Braineye shifter
321 posts
Location: between my headphones


Posted:
soooo...as loong as everyone is equally inferior to white people its ok?

If I could be granted one wish I would ask for all the questions of the universe.


PK_BRONZE Member
Lambretta Fanatic
4,996 posts
Location: United Kingdom


Posted:
white power = racialism in many ways.

If you support white powere it would depend very much on your personaly views to many issues and your arguement to why you fight for what you feel is right.

im not saying it is right or wrong, we are indeviduals and it is yourself that controls your own mind, views and beliefs etc...

i dont see that metal as a genre is looked upon as racist.
white power has it's own genre and has been around for decades now.

we as a younger generation have grown around other ethnic communities and see that as the norm so to speak, our parents and grand parents may feel otherwise and have their views.

here are a few questions for you.. just out of general curiosity.
how many ethnic minorities do we have one these boards?.. how many ethnic minorities do you know that do poi.
do you think that hop is at all white power from your answer to the above 2 questions.?

every thing i have read over the years of white power is statistically based, we are all equal, any man/woman of any colour/creed and origin can do a job as equally well as the next... but who can stop the nazi bastards from trying to brain wash people and young children into believing that being white is better.

Every one is born into this world by loving parents, born equally as one, a form in existance in this void.. why should any one hate another person in his/her's existance... ?

PK.

"To be an angel, one need not have wings.
In giving love there is an equal grace.
Nor need one seek the aura in the face,
As love unveils the beauty of all things."

*Francois Couperin.


JauntyJamesSILVER Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,533 posts
Location: Hampshire College, MA, USA


Posted:
Written by: Burning Brain


soooo...as loong as everyone is equally inferior to white people its ok?




nonesense. saying that everyone is inferior is definately "putting down" other ethnicities. my point is there's no shame in displaying pride in being white. all other ethnicites do it, white people have just as much right to

-James

"How do you know if you're happy or sad without a mask? Or angry? Or ready for dessert?"


Burning Braineye shifter
321 posts
Location: between my headphones


Posted:
competition ensures evolution

and the allies stopped the nazies real nice in WW2.

and to make it clear...i was being sarcastic.

If I could be granted one wish I would ask for all the questions of the universe.


nearly_all_goneSILVER Member
Pooh-Bah
1,626 posts
Location: Southampton, United Kingdom


Posted:
White power and any group that makes a discrimination between people solely upon the colour of their skin is a load of censored. You can hold any belief, be part of any religion, do any job (well, men might find it a bit tricky starring in lesbian porn but you know what I mean) with any colour of skin.



I play guitar, have even been known to play a bit of thrash in my time (I'm not an expert) and can see the distinction between people. Some are black. Some are brown. Some are white.



All are people.



Anyone who makes a distinction in the value and worth of people, their attitudes, beliefs and opinons based upon their skin is an idiot. The differences between us are so insignificant. Why do people have to spend their lives trying to split the human race up?



Metal's OK. Give me a bit of RATM any day. I can like a band's music without involving myself with their ideology. But I'm an indiekid at heart.




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What a wonderful miracle if only we could look through each other's eyes for an instant.
Thoreau


_Stix_Pooh-Bah
2,419 posts
Location: la-la land


Posted:
I don't think metal has anything to with white supremisy.. it's people who associate themselfs with the metal that are doing that.. I find it kinda sad frown

I guess people have to pigion hole them selfs to 'belong' somewhere to feel safe..

I can't wait for the day when we get a visit and people start pigion holing themselfs as 'Earthling' - we might all start to get along then, but I doubt it.. people seem to need to feel more superior to others by putting them down.. just a bunch of big bullies..

Peas and love people

I honour you as an aspect of myself..

You are never to old to storm a bouncey castle..


Burning Braineye shifter
321 posts
Location: between my headphones


Posted:
rage isnt metal first of all. :P

second, bears and humans are both living but that doesnt make them think the same.

third, yes it is rediculous to base differences between people based on the color of their skin but it just so happens that some of those people with a certain attitute toward life have darker skin. but there are also some with the same attitude with light skin.

fourth, everyone is not born into this world by loving parents, please get out of your idealistic utopia of the mind and join the real world. some parents do not want their children.

and last, the only thing that makes us the same is that we are all different.

If I could be granted one wish I would ask for all the questions of the universe.


Tao StarPooh-Bah
1,662 posts
Location: Bristol


Posted:
rage so IS metal - ok rap metal, but it still counts. tongue

I had a dream that my friend had a
strong-bad pop up book,
it was the book of my dreams.


Wonder MonkeyBRONZE Member
Certainly confused
121 posts
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, United Kingdom


Posted:
Im sorry Burning Brain, but I fail to see how the ability to differentiate between musical nuances leads to racism/is linked to racism in any way?

I dont see why the recognition of difference necessarily leads to bigotry. Are you trying to excuse the attitudes these people have towards people of another colour?

See a difference is one thing. Viewing that difference in a derrogatory manenr is another.

My Mummy Says Im Special

bounce ubbloco bounce


nearly_all_goneSILVER Member
Pooh-Bah
1,626 posts
Location: Southampton, United Kingdom


Posted:
See tongue

What a wonderful miracle if only we could look through each other's eyes for an instant.
Thoreau


Burning Braineye shifter
321 posts
Location: between my headphones


Posted:
im just giving the, what seems to me, the logical reason for why some people are racist instead of saying everyone is a flower and beautiful. i believe people who develop a certain skill at an early age have a different mind than others...and most if not all of the psychology world agrees with me.



this is what im saying.



1. people, in my experiance, like metal for the skill of the musicians and technical written music.

something in their brain gives them the ability to notice the skill of musicians. this usually comes from an early development of such skills to which they can accociate to music.



2. because of this development of a taste for skillful musicians they can also see unskillful musicians. this is when they start to say 'those guys suck'. this becomes an arrogant and negative view for music.



3. IF metal becomes a big part of their life (this is key for those of you who only listen to metal some times or do not play an instroment) then this onlook of metal becomes daily routine. the arrogance and negative mindset becomes the way they see everything. including people.



4. racism is the arrogance for one's own race and negative view of others.



and yes you can include other fields of expertise.

If I could be granted one wish I would ask for all the questions of the universe.


nearly_all_goneSILVER Member
Pooh-Bah
1,626 posts
Location: Southampton, United Kingdom


Posted:
The reason almost everyone I know who likes metal like metal is that it's fast, loud and aggressive. Nothing to do with the skill of the musicians, although if you asked a metal fan to name a sklilled musician they'd name someone in metal.

But if you asked a.. I dunno, someone who likes DJ-based music, they'd pick someone who's good at beatmatching and all sorts of things I can't understand.

And they'd both be right. People recognise skillful or talented people. But that's not limited to metal.

I'd say if there is a right-wing attraction it's the sheer aggression of a lot of metal that appeals to aggressive people (amongst others, sure). This "ability to discriminate" seems a bit far-fetched to me, I'm afraid. Someone who can pick an amazing technical poi-spinner from someone who's just doing a fast weave has a better ability to see skill, but that doesn't mean someone who's knowledgable about poi is more likely to be a racist.

Written by:

2. because of this development of a taste for skillful musicians they can also see unskillful musicians. this is when they start to say 'those guys suck'. this becomes an arrogant and negative view for music.

3. IF metal becomes a big part of their life (this is key for those of you who only listen to metal some times or do not play an instroment) then this onlook of metal becomes daily routine. the arrogance and negative mindset becomes the way they see everything. including people.




You seem to be saying that people will be negative to people who have little skill, and that this will spread to other areas of their life, right?

So why will this make people racist? I don't think you're implying people of races other than caucasian have less skill in general than other people. So this can't be a logical conclusion.

What a wonderful miracle if only we could look through each other's eyes for an instant.
Thoreau


Wonder MonkeyBRONZE Member
Certainly confused
121 posts
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, United Kingdom


Posted:
So anybody who is very good at something has the propensity to develop racist views? Is that your position?

Surely, to make your idea work there has to be a tandom element - that they lack the ability of rational judgement?

I mean, you can say a musician sucks because you can hear that they do (purely on a technical, not taste level). But how does that work when applied to skin colour?

For your position to hold all white people must automatically be better at all things than any other colour of person.

Which is irrational small mindedness

Which is racism.

Personally I feel racism is more down to environment and upbringing impeeding rational thought.

So really, its not having a skill, but lacking one, that results in racism.

smile confused smile

My Mummy Says Im Special

bounce ubbloco bounce


Burning Braineye shifter
321 posts
Location: between my headphones


Posted:
Written by:

but that doesn't mean someone who's knowledgable about poi is more likely to be a racist.



is there ANY logical, scientific, psychological basis for this assumption. i really doubt it.

i think the problem is that you dont understand what im saying. because every single question you just ask, are answered in my previous post.

you-The reason almost everyone I know who likes metal like metal is that it's fast, loud and aggressive.
me-like metal for the skill of the musicians and technical written music.
so it doesnt apply to your friends

you-But that's not limited to metal.
me-and yes you can include other fields of expertise.

you-people of races other than caucasian have less skill in general than other people.
me-the arrogance and negative mindset [that they see in different types of music] becomes the way they see everything. even people.

you-people of races other than caucasian have less skill in general than other people.
me-racism is the arrogance for one's own race and negative view of others.

If I could be granted one wish I would ask for all the questions of the universe.


nearly_all_goneSILVER Member
Pooh-Bah
1,626 posts
Location: Southampton, United Kingdom


Posted:
That's not what you said, I'm afraid. You said they have a skill for discriminating between skilled people and unskilled people. You said it makes them arrogant towards people who they deem unskilled. You then said this arrogance spreads to the rest of their life.



If they are arrogant towards the unskilled, this doesn't mean they are neccessarily arrogant to people of other races, unless you're implying people of other races are less skilled than they are. Arrogance is viewing people who you see as different to yourself as less valuable (or whatever - that general thing, you know) than yourself. Someone who is not racist doesn't view other people as different to themself in any important way - they have a different skin colour.



So why would they be MORE arrogant to people of other races just because they're arrogant in general?



I'd like to see an accurate logical basis for your argument before you accuse me of not having one. I don't need to because I admit that I might be wrong. All I'm saying is that nothing, even what you're proposing as logical, indicates that people who are knowledgable about poi ARE more likely to be racist. Prove it to me. You can't make statements which are as accusational as this without proof.



At the moment you seem to be clutching to this idea that people who can recognise skill have a greater natural propensity towards racism, but you certainly don't have a convincing argument to back it up - as the number of posts rejecting yours should indicate to you. Is there as much racism in other fields of music that have highly skilled performers? Well, I see no evidence of that.



In fact, a lot of right-wing racist nutters were part of the punk movement. Are you going to tell me that the majority of right-wing punk bands have technically skilled musicians in them?
EDITED_BY: nearly_all_gone (1106672509)

What a wonderful miracle if only we could look through each other's eyes for an instant.
Thoreau


Burning Braineye shifter
321 posts
Location: between my headphones


Posted:
first of all you should be afraid.

"unless you're implying people of other races are less skilled than they are."
true, and im sorry, i should have said they become elitist with a hint of racist because of the media's projection of unskilled and uneducated african americans.

"the number of posts rejecting yours should indicate to you."
while my argument may not be *convincing* due to the amount of post against me, i think the *validity* of these arguments against me are below par because of the content of the posts. eg. "we all have loving parents." in fact i would say that the only valid argument agianst me so far would be your last couple of lines in your last post:

"In fact, a lot of right-wing racist nutters were part of the punk movement. Are you going to tell me that the majority of right-wing punk bands have technically skilled musicians in them?"
thats pretty good.

however, the flaw in this is that it assumes that my argument is the only one for the cause of racism (that is through elitism). so this quote only proves that there are more than one reason for racism, and not that my explination for metal enthuseists becomeing racist through elitism is not a valid reason.

ill ask my psych teacher if there are any studies on elitist and if they have any significance to our discution.

word of the day...valid.

If I could be granted one wish I would ask for all the questions of the universe.


Wonder MonkeyBRONZE Member
Certainly confused
121 posts
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, United Kingdom


Posted:
Written by: Burning Brain


is there ANY logical, scientific, psychological basis for this assumption. i really doubt it.





Again, I dont wish to anger you brain, but nor is there any for the assumption you make that skilled people are more likely to be racist.

I can agree that what you say contributes to why someone may form racist attitudes, but not in isolation. Thats where the ability to rationalise comes in. The ability to recognise that your thinking is not based on anything logical (aside - now, I dont know, but are logical and rational one and the same?!? Is there only a semantic difference? Insight BBrain?). Without that, then your views develop unchallenged until they form your belief that other races are inferior.

Which is ignorance.

And thats why racism isnt the preserve of white people.

People of all colour can be pretty ignorant and irrational.

I reckon your psyche teacher would say your theory is sound but not in isolation...because it just cant work in isolation. Just like believing the world is all a bed of roses.

Things just arent that simple.

However, what I reckon and what is true may not be one and the same, and Id like know what your psyche teachers real view would be smile

My Mummy Says Im Special

bounce ubbloco bounce


nearly_all_goneSILVER Member
Pooh-Bah
1,626 posts
Location: Southampton, United Kingdom


Posted:
Written by: Burning Brain



first of all you should be afraid.






Wtf? Why's that exactly?





Your logic's circular. You say people have negative assumptions about people of other races as a result of their representation within the media, and that because they are elitist this makes them racist. That's a tautology. If they have a negative opinion of other races, then they are racists. Whether or not they are elitist, if they believe what is represented in the right-wing media and assume people of other races are negative in some way, they are making a judgement about people based upon the colour of their skin.



RACISM + ELITISM = RACISM? Well, yes, but the elitism is totally superfluous.



What you're actually saying then is that the media contributes towards racism. And sure, it does.
EDITED_BY: nearly_all_gone (1106742255)

What a wonderful miracle if only we could look through each other's eyes for an instant.
Thoreau


polytheneveteran
1,359 posts
Location: London/ Surrey


Posted:
Written by: Burning Brain



your right polythene...



Is metal music associated with RACISM?



yes.



did you say you listened to metal poly?






Guys, he has only one point to make, which he will repeat over and over without adding any really new or different ones. He's not waiting for your replies so he can read and think about them, he's waiting for his next opportunity to reply and refute. The post I made that the above quote was in response to was mostly written because I thought maybe he'd slightly misinterpreted the question, and his reply was a slight tangent although not off topic. Rather than explain himself better or support his arguement, his reply implied that I myself was racist, based on no more information about me than my liking for rock and metal music. Personally I found this to be an amusing and ironic response.



Burning brain, I agree that a highly skilled person/ expert in any field may be better at recognising small differences, be it sound/picture quality, taste, tiny variations in colour shade, whatever example you like. Honestly though, telling the difference between a black and a white person isn't rocket science. You don't need a high IQ. You don't even need colour vision to tell the difference in shade. Working out that it doesn't matter, doesn't make a person inferior, I think that does take a certain amount of intelligence. Especially if the media, or people you regularly interact with tell you otherwise. To be able to entertain an idea without being forced to accept it, to be able to make your own, informed decision, takes intelligence. You don't need to be an expert in anything at all to believe what other people and the media tell you.



But hey, don't take my views too seriously, I listen to metal music smile



edit: Thread has degenerated into unpleasantness, sorry I contributed to that... won't be posting in here again.
EDITED_BY: polythene (1106766212)

The optimist claims that we are living in the best of all possible worlds.
The pessimist fears this is true.

Always make time to play in the snow.


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