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Forums > Beginner Staff Moves > rotatorcuff / smoother figure 8s

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mo-seph


mo-seph

enthusiast
Location: Edinburgh, UK

Total posts: 524
Posted:Alright, this is something which may be a little bit anal for most people, but it's definitely helped me, especially with doubles, so here goes.

Something I've been trying to do is be able to spin staff patterns with the complete minimum of body movement. Don't get me wrong, I like to move about when I'm spinning, but if you can isolate a spin so that only your hand has to move, it gives you more freedom with the rest of your body.

So the exercise for this morning is to be able to hold your arm out horizontally, and spin a figure 8 with your arm completely still, except for the rotation necessary to not break your wrist. But before we do that, lets take a quick look at how your arm moves.

If you hold your arm out, and rotate your hand as if you were turning a door knob, most people think this rotation comes from the wrist. In fact, it comes from the two bones in your forearm twisting against each other. If you try and move it more (you'll need your arm to be straight out from the shoulder for this), another movement comes into play, which is your rotatorcuff muscle pulling you upper arm around. With some practise you can isolate these movements, and rotate your elbow while keeping your hand still, which looks quite freaky.

So, back to the staff. If you watch your elbow as you try and spin a figure 8 without moving your arm, you'll probably see a point in the rotation where it very quickly jumps from being rotated most of the way backwards to being rotated forwards. What's happened here is the staff in your wrist has forced your arm to rotate, and that has pushed the joint round. Now comes the whole point of this post, which is that now you've practiced and can isolate your rotatorcuff movement, you can anticipate this, and rotate your elbow before you need to. Doing this will:

make the movement more fluid
take a lot of strain off your wrist
if you do it *really* early, you can even give the staff a bit more momentum

If you also pracise a similar thing but keeping your arm straight down, you'll find that you can do at least one of the snake patterns without moving your arm at all...

Well, congratulations to anyone who's read all the way through this, and even more congrats to anyone who can now rotate their elbow independantly and freak people out. biggrin


monkeys ate my brain

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Dragon7
GOLD Member since Oct 2003

Dragon7

addict
Location: Aotearoa (NZ), New Zealand

Total posts: 625
Posted:I havnt read up about club swinging yet, cause....well everyone always says u cant name a move after a different disiciplin, ie poi and staff have simila moves but none of them are the same name...

Anyway, i finally just shot it, im watching the fottage now trying to find the "double lock up" sequence wink ill cut like a 20sec clip or something so if u want a copy pm me...i doubt it will be worth hosting.

Scuse my spelling, its like 0:400


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Klaymen



Location: Melbourne, Vic.

Total posts: 180
Posted:I'll host it I'll host it =).

- Klay-host


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Dragon7
GOLD Member since Oct 2003

Dragon7

addict
Location: Aotearoa (NZ), New Zealand

Total posts: 625
Posted:Staff lock up clip as promised. Sry was rushed 4 time. Its only 1 variation of a single (reverse) direction, but u'll get the drift. Is this anything near a snake? And could you point me toward a snake video clip if thats possible? TY





Http://dragon7.spymac.net/stafflockup.wmv

EDITED_BY: Dragon7 (1089982644)


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simian


simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London

Total posts: 3149
Posted:i've been doing these for a while now. Just to add another name to the mix, i call them triplespins.
i certainly wouldn't call them snakes
(unless i was deliberately trying to irritate clubswingers, which can be fun...)

i've managed to get them all nailed except for the low reverse one (staff spinning backwards going from in front of you to behind). That particular one i have nicknamed "the utter bastard".
i have seen it done smoothly, but only by Glass, so that still doesn't prove it's possible...

The forwards ones (like in Dragons vid) are very possible with doubles, alternating so one is in front while the other is behind.
one interesting thing is i often find i've accidentally missed a beat with one of the sticks and they'll end up syncopated, so for one or two beats in the pattern both staffs are in front or behind me at the same time.

Mo-Seph: The first post on this thread is awesome dude smile most insightful. But i accept no responsibility for eating your brain... confused2


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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Klaymen



Location: Melbourne, Vic.

Total posts: 180
Posted:yeah, I call them triple-spins too simian, have done for ages :P, thats what they are! 3beat=triple spin, pretty straight forward :P.

God I love triple-spins, I've spent so much time doing them and I spend ages just doing it over n over when I burn :P, must be pretty monotonous. I've mastard fwd and bkwd, so it works well for parallel doubles too.

Yeah it is cool when the staffs go out of sync for a bit then go back in sync, this happens for me when what you said happens, and also going from parallel opposite elbow centred fig 8's back to normal either-side-of body fig 8s, it's cool to line it back up again too. =)

m00


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simian


simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London

Total posts: 3149
Posted:not quite what i meant... in my terminology: 6 beat = triplespins
like in Dragons vid


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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Klaymen



Location: Melbourne, Vic.

Total posts: 180
Posted:oh okay. Damn :P.

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Dragon7
GOLD Member since Oct 2003

Dragon7

addict
Location: Aotearoa (NZ), New Zealand

Total posts: 625
Posted:Snakes anyone? huhuh???

Anyways that move is pretty sick, iv had my rotator cuff ripped out afew times (sholder ligament also) trying to push it faster and further than is possible. And its not such a nice feeling, specially when u have to miss out on playing because your sholder's need to heal up again.


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arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2364
Posted:rotator cuff workout

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Hi dragon7, great clip for a move description. Thats a nice move, but not what I would call a traditional club swinging snake. A triple spin seems like a good description.

With the shoulder snake all the action happens at shoulder level. Hold arms straight out to the side and note that elbows are held at shoulder level through the movement. The movement takes place from the elbow down (forearm) with the main work happens with the wrist. The tricky bit is in front when you bring the club around to the front of the shoulder for the first circle (fingers facing the head), then you turn the wrist so fingers face away from the head to get the second circle in front, and the club should return to behind the shoulder. You can use the second circle to take the club down to hip level and other snake moves.

Apparently there is a snake clip on the Grandini DVD of club swinging. But, why not take a peek at the snake illustrations in Jillings book???

Good points Simian. Though Im not sure that its wise to irritate grumpy club swingers wink Just so you know, missing or adding a circle to go from alternating time to same time, is standard club stuff; and like you they probably found it by accident. The utter bastard sounds like a reverse perpendicular snake. The staff move I have issues with is the reverse one where they try to get two circles behind the shoulder then twist the body a bit to get the staff in front. Dunno, doesnt seem to flow naturally, as you seem to fight the body with that one.

Nice link on the rotator cuff Mr Arashi. You gotta love that circular weight training stuff. Apparently in the old days they pulled the clackers out of bells (dumb bells) so they could get more weight, compared to clubs, for circular training. And then dumb bells superseded clubs for weight training etcetc.

Hope that helps smile


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Dragon7, hope you shoulder heals quickly. I had a bit of tennis elbow about a year ago. It took a while to heal and I had to cut back on practice. Think I got it from lifting fence posts for a friend.

An old adage form my motor bike days is: you have to slow down, to go fast

wink


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Dragon7
GOLD Member since Oct 2003

Dragon7

addict
Location: Aotearoa (NZ), New Zealand

Total posts: 625
Posted:My sholder is fine. That fottage was shot near 2 weeks ago.

The problem is not with strength, but old injuries, iv torn both my sholders out at seperate times and everynow and then i get in a bad position and push it to far and it just pops again. Usually when im playing way to hard and trying to show off wink

Jillings book??? Couldnt find it...and iv never touched a club in my life.

"The utter bastard" is a perfect name...i also have trouble sorting that one out and with ankles, lets just say "they dont help" wink biggrin Stone i think Simian ment that hes doing that move in my clip but in reverse. Because its damn near impossible! ubbloco


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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Ok, you may have never touched a club, but there are similarities that could be useful for the moves in the video.

One way of looking at it is that a staff is really two clubs joined together. Like if you held a staff in front of you, hands 30cm (12) apart, and removed the bit of staff in the middle (ie. between your hands) you would now have a club in each hand wink

I do a similar move to the triplespin. But I would probably do the bit following where you have the staff locked btb, and you twist your body to bring the staff around the front a bit differently. Like I do it in wall plane, and to bring the staff around to the front I would use a hip snake (Jillings Lesson 15). sorry its just too difficult to describe without pictures.

I still suggest having a peak at Jillings book
Download a Free Copy

or


Cosmos Juggling
Follow the Club Swinging link.
Then Download a Free Copy. Actually each Chapter is an Acrobat file.
Then check out Lessons 13 to 16 on the snakes.

You can tie me up and torture me if you dont find this stuff useful

rolleyes


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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simian


simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London

Total posts: 3149
Posted:Written by: Dragon7
doing that move in my clip but in reverse


thats the one.
and i actually managed to tame it today, by thinking about it exactly like that.

i had to turn to the left (staff in right hand) earlier than i thought i would to get it smooth, and when it actually switches sides my hand is locked in my back and the turn of my body round to the right provides the turn of the staff. Thats all the twisty bit, and the untwisty bit is easy biggrin

it feels a lot like forwards btb with poi (but one handed) just like the one on your video feels like backwards btb.
like btb with poi, its not so much a matter of stretching your body but of timing and plane control.

ubbidea doubles followtime triplespins would look pretty cool...


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:



It's all in the wrists.





Suggest instead of turning the body round, you can use your wrist to turn the staff (start by turning the shoulder).



Doubles are much harder.



smile


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Dragon7
GOLD Member since Oct 2003

Dragon7

addict
Location: Aotearoa (NZ), New Zealand

Total posts: 625
Posted:Actually, after looking at THIS I would say they are exactly the same....unless im reading the diagram wrong ubbloco



Thanks for the link Stone, i finally found it ubblol



OMFG, im spending more time in here than the poi forum! WTH is happening to hop?!? help You guys wouldnt be trying to convert me to Clubs or somthing now would you lolsign

EDITED_BY: Dragon7 (1091093560)


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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:That's so cool , I was beginning to think I was overdoing it a bit.



You can also check out the club swinging thread



in the Other Toys section of HOP.





cool


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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