Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive
Shalom VeAhavah
New Hampshire has a point....
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
quote:You don't have to do anything. I thought you might want to. We are discussing the new homophobia, right? I am seeking reasons for its existence outside of a religious context. When I saw you post your viewpoint that it is immoral outside of biblical reasoning, I wanted to discuss that with you.
The wonderfull thing here is, I dont have to give you a reason why it is moral outside of religion. If you truly want to play that way, is murder moral, outside of religious text?
quote:No, by my definition that is most definitely not ok. I am not promoting blatant hedonism. The difference between you hitting someone and two persons of the same sex sharing intimacy is vast. One involves hurt. If your roommate was begging you to hit him - that would be different. Once more I feel that these comparisons suggest that you feel homosexuality is harmful - how so?
If I walked over to my roommate, and just hauled off and hit him would that be okay? I mean he has pissed me off alot latly and damn I do just want to hit him, I know it would feel good.
By your definition, that is okay. I mean it would feel good so why not do it?
quote:Well... you know I did want to discuss it, but since I started getting attacked... hrm let me give you an example of what I mean.
You don't have to do anything. I thought you might want to. We are discussing the new homophobia, right? I am seeking reasons for its existence outside of a religious context. When I saw you post your viewpoint that it is immoral outside of biblical reasoning, I wanted to discuss that with you.
quote:Ya well... when I start recieving comments like that I stop wanting to debate and then go on the deffencive.
You Phule!
Have you ever thought for a minute that God isn't the one who wrote the Bible*, and that these are stories, not History, and that in reality God never punished people (except the people who beleived they where being punished by God, but that's an entirely different story). It's been acknowledged and all...
quote:I have said my piece on it, as far as I am concered there is nothing to discuss.
I am seeking reasons for its existence outside of a religious context. When I saw you post your viewpoint that it is immoral outside of biblical reasoning, I wanted to discuss that with you
quote:The outcome for an unrepented homosexual is eternal death. In my opinion.
Seeking a comparison between murder and sexuality is absurd, however. The outcome of murder is the death of a person. The outcome of homosexuality, in your view, is what?
quote:Outside of marrage, it is immoral, between two members of the same sex, it is immoral. Why do I believe this, I turn once again to my religion.
Again, I suggest that all consentual human sexuality is amoral. I'd love to hear your reasoning as to why you disagree.
quote:I allready have, go back and read.
I get the feeling you believe homosexuality is harmful in some way. If so, please elaborate.
quote:Dont speculate, pretend your a lawyer in a court, speculation just doent hold up. (I anit bitchin at you, just a suggestion)
I do not mean to put words in your mouth there - I'm only speculating.
quote:Okay... it was a streatch of "if it feels good do it" but still why should you say its cool for one case and not for another?
No, by my definition that is most definitely not ok. I am not promoting blatant hedonism. The difference between you hitting someone and two persons of the same sex sharing intimacy is vast. One involves hurt. If your roommate was begging you to hit him - that would be different.
quote:Once again, I have given two reasons, go back and read. I am not going to give any more, if that explination isnt sufficiant, I suggest that you use your own brain to think of some, or talk to other people.
Once more I feel that these comparisons suggest that you feel homosexuality is harmful - how so?
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
quote:Oh. You see, at one point in this conversation, you said..
Outside of marrage, it is immoral, between two members of the same sex, it is immoral. Why do I believe this, I turn once again to my religion.
quote:.. and I thought by saying that you were providing your reasons for feeling that homosexuality is immoral outside a religious scope (which is what you were asked to do). It appears that you were merely setting the bible aside though, not your religious beliefs.
If a man loves another man as if he would want to take that man as a mate (bride just wouldnt be the right word there), that is wrong. Why is it wrong, with out using the Bible, in my opinion man and man were never physically designed to love eachother like that.
quote:Well, you've already answered this for me. You believe religiously that the outcome of homosexuality is negative. If I believed the same as you, I would agree that both hitting your roommate and homosexual activity were immoral.
Okay... it was a streatch of "if it feels good do it" but still why should you say its cool for one case and not for another?
quote:Gee, thanks, I guess I'll try to engage my brain some.
I am not going to give any more, if that explination isnt sufficiant, I suggest that you use your own brain to think of some, or talk to other people.
quote:So what your saying is that everytime I mention one reason I dont agree with something, I have to mention every other reason as well? It agrivates me that you just cant put two and two together.
posted 09 August, 2003 01:58
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Outside of marrage, it is immoral, between two members of the same sex, it is immoral. Why do I believe this, I turn once again to my religion.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh. You see, at one point in this conversation, you said..
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If a man loves another man as if he would want to take that man as a mate (bride just wouldnt be the right word there), that is wrong. Why is it wrong, with out using the Bible, in my opinion man and man were never physically designed to love eachother like that.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:Actually I was asked to do with out the Bible. Either way I have listed my reasons, what difference does it make? What are your reasons for saying its right?
.. and I thought by saying that you were providing your reasons for feeling that homosexuality is immoral outside a religious scope (which is what you were asked to do). It appears that you were merely setting the bible aside though, not your religious beliefs.
quote:The "if it feels good, do it" theory isnt about morality.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Okay... it was a streatch of "if it feels good do it" but still why should you say its cool for one case and not for another?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, you've already answered this for me. You believe religiously that the outcome of homosexuality is negative. If I believed the same as you, I would agree that both hitting your roommate and homosexual activity were immoral.
quote:Why should I give you all the answers to life? Why should I be asked to explain myself, when you dodge my questions asking you to explain yourself. Not one of you has told me why homosexuality is fine. Sorry but "it dont hurt nobody" just doesnt cut it. 9 times out of 10 drug use doesnt hurt anybody but the user, it doesnt make it right.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am not going to give any more, if that explination isnt sufficiant, I suggest that you use your own brain to think of some, or talk to other people.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gee, thanks, I guess I'll try to engage my brain some.
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
quote:... Um, no? Where did i say that? You don't have to patronise me, either. I was saying exactly what I said, maybe you're reading too much into my responses.
So what your saying is that everytime I mention one reason I dont agree with something, I have to mention every other reason as well? It agrivates me that you just cant put two and two together.
quote:I don't have any, because as I've said several times now, I don't think it's right or wrong. Amoral. If you want my reasoning for why I believe that, feel free to ask.
What are your reasons for saying its right?
quote:Ok, what is it about then?
The "if it feels good, do it" theory isnt about morality.
quote:You haven't given me any. I am merely curious about the logic you use to arrive at your conclusions regarding the immorality of homosexuality. I think we're just about done, now that it's established as purely spiritual reasoning. (Do you agree?)
Why should I give you all the answers to life?
quote:I've just done that (partially, at least) above. I wasn't aware that I'd sidestepped any other questions. Please ask me them again if that is the case.
Why should I be asked to explain myself, when you dodge my questions asking you to explain yourself. Not one of you has told me why homosexuality is fine.
quote:I would say that "it dont hurt nobody" and "doesnt hurt anybody but the user" are two entirely different things. I'm also completely in support of careful drug use by informed adults. Just wondering, do you consider alcohol to be a drug?
Sorry but "it dont hurt nobody" just doesnt cut it. 9 times out of 10 drug use doesnt hurt anybody but the user, it doesnt make it right.
quote:Effects of what? Drug use? Do you mean statistics on fatalities or something? Sorry, not certain what this is in reference to!
If you really want to know the effects I am sure you can find them on the net or Mike can tell us.
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
quote:Unless I have something constructive to add?
Originally posted by Raymund Phule:
Unless you actually have something constructive to add... then I will be more than happy to keep debating.
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
"Here kitty kitty...." - Schroedinger.
quote:Awww did I find a button? Did I piss you off some how? You do seem angry. How does it feel to be on the recieving end of a $hit sandwhich for a change? Not exactly fun to have to defend yourself is it?
posted 10 August, 2003 01:57
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What shroes are refering to, where in the hell were you... hahaha WTF??
Your insaine! How long ago did Christianity arrive on what shores? How old were you? Were you even alive, if not how in the friggin world do you know how things were? My word I have never read anything so damn funny.
Now, I am going to try to be polite here, Frosty, you are a moron! I'm not just calling you names, I mean it.
You have no basis for what your saying, your just trying to put down something that you dont understand.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From a man who can't even spell archaeologist that's pretty ****ing rich.
Have you heard of archaeology? Do you understand/know that there is history beyond the bible and that people have been on this planet for hundreds of thousands of years? That christianity didn't always exist?
Probably not if you believe in The Creation - ask the american indians in your own country - they've also experienced your views on what is a righteous killing and how to force a religion upon a whole nation, and various middle east countries.
you are NOT in any situation to claim victory or superior morals.
If you find this a little confusing someone will help - but if you look at the bottom of my posts it tells you where I live - the UK - christianity came here with the Romans and was enforced on the local people who were killed if they didn't denounce their old religions.
Again it's ok to kill people who aren't christian and righteous so that's ok eh?
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*laughs and adds a little check mark next to his name* Ray 1 HOP 0
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I wouldn't bet on that. Your views here could quite happily be used against you, and i'd suspect have changed a lot of people's opinion of you
It's certainly shown how much of a good "christian" you are... go read your bible about how you should treat others and have another little think about sin.
quote:Actually, archaeology, and archaeologists have proven the Bible right every time they have set out to prove it wrong. Did you know that pilars IE stone colums, have been found with names of Kings, on them. No big deal right... untill you look at the Bible, where, (comma pause for effect) they appear in the exact same order. Now before the finding, there had been no historical proof that the Bible told the truth about said Kings. Guess what, science has just proven the Bible right.
Have you heard of archaeology? Do you understand/know that there is history beyond the bible and that people have been on this planet for hundreds of thousands of years? That christianity didn't always exist?
quote:Yep, unfortunatly mankind does get some stupid ideas in their heads. And the Church (not the Bible) has seen its share of corruption, kinda like what the Muslim Extreamests are going though now.
Probably not if you believe in The Creation - ask the american indians in your own country - they've also experienced your views on what is a righteous killing and how to force a religion upon a whole nation, and various middle east countries.
you are NOT in any situation to claim victory or superior morals.
If you find this a little confusing someone will help - but if you look at the bottom of my posts it tells you where I live - the UK - christianity came here with the Romans and was enforced on the local people who were killed if they didn't denounce their old religions.
quote:Then why in the world was I asked to explain myself? Why should I be put on the spot just because you and I dont share the same opinion? Huh? Riddle me that Batman!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not one of you has told me why homosexuality is fine.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The whole point.... raymond.... is that noone should have to.
Tis very simple. Would you ask someone to explain why a man having female friends is fine? It's a ridiculous question.
So is asking why is homosexuality fine.
quote:Ohh you have intrigued me, how would someone use my views against me? My views have never been a secret. I view abortion under all circumstance to be murder, premeditated I might add. I view homosexuality as immoral and a sin.
I wouldn't bet on that. Your views here could quite happily be used against you, and i'd suspect have changed a lot of people's opinion of you
It's certainly shown how much of a good "christian" you are... go read your bible about how you should treat others and have another little think about sin.
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
"Here kitty kitty...." - Schroedinger.
quote:hahahahahahahaha
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ohh you have intrigued me, how would someone use my views against me? My views have never been a secret. I view abortion under all circumstance to be murder, premeditated I might add. I view homosexuality as immoral and a sin.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Because they might have got the impression that you're highly judgemental, violent, potentially a rapist combining and confusing sex and violence with ease, an unrepentant bigot, capable of killing without remorse, a chauvenist who doesn't think women should be allowed control of their own bodies, uneducated and self-righteous
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
quote:And why should he be loyal to a country that won't be loyal to him? I wonder to myself how the Prez's desire to codify marriage sits with the minority of servicemen and women who happen to be homosexual.Are they any less willing to die for this country?
Originally posted by Raymund Phule:
Mike has repeatedly said about his disgust for America and its government (no matter who is in office). Now this is my opinion and is not law, but I believe that in order to truly call yourself a member of a country you must have some loyalty to it. Going off of what Mike has said in the past, he has no loyalty.
Granted this is only my opinion.
quote:Wouldn't this be more along the the lines of familiarity?
Originally posted by Raymund Phule:
Perhaps having the ability to dissasemble and reassemble the majority of the weapons the USMC has BLIND FOLDED... that must make me friggin retarded.
What hits the fan is not evenly distributed.
quote:Yep, the whole 60 million person country is against Mike.
And why should he be loyal to a country that won't be loyal to him?
quote:I cant say there are no homosexuals in the military, but as of right now it is against the law to be homosexual and in the military. (I dont understand, nor do I agree with this.)
I wonder to myself how the Prez's desire to codify marriage sits with the minority of servicemen and women who happen to be homosexual.Are they any less willing to die for this country?
quote:I'm not homophobic either, but I do not agree with homosexuality.
I am not homophobic so I do find Ray's point of view slightly disturbing but I am also not fit to judge anyone so I accept it for what it is.
quote:All education really is, is familiarity with the subject.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Raymund Phule:
Perhaps having the ability to dissasemble and reassemble the majority of the weapons the USMC has BLIND FOLDED... that must make me friggin retarded.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wouldn't this be more along the the lines of familiarity?
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
quote:Yep, the whole 60 million person country is against Mike.
Originally posted by Raymund Phule:
[QB] [QUOTE] And why should he be loyal to a country that won't be loyal to him?
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"