Forums > Social Discussion > Reply to bluecats thread which currently seems to be unpostable in
Login/Join to ParticipateGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Posted:
reading this-
[Old link]
and this-
[Old link]
i felt the need to make comment, but, the reply button would not work on either, so I guess they've been locked?
From the perspective of a (long-standing) member of the HOP community, i felt it was important to put forward two points-
1. why some may feel the need to talk about the banning of another long-standing member of the community, not necessarily to criticise those who made that decision, but, simply because that is what community members do when someone is exiled- they feel the need to talk about it
2. address the posted comment by a mod that, from the perspectice of a mod, any discussion of said members banning, is necessarily disrespectful to the mods
To elaborate on point 2, IMO, the discussion on the threads that have been removed or locked, did not come across as disrespectful to the mods.
To question a decision is not necessarily disrespectful.
It's true that the banning of NYC has gone largely unnoticed, till now. But, now, it has very much been noticed and, to expect this community to not talk about it, is, IMO, unrealistic.
There may be very good background reasons why it's seen as best for no discussion to take place, but, obviously, from the perspective of the community, those reasons are not known.
I know it's a difficult thing to make judgements on.
The main thing I want to say is that I find it very unpleasent when multiple threads are locked or removed, when, in my eyes, they contained nothing offensive.
I would also like the mods to examine the possibility that the pulled/stoped discussions are actually not disrespectful to HOP or the mods, but are simply members of the community discussing something which is important to them.
I'm assuming that this thread is not also going to be seen as disrespectful- it's certainly not intended as such.
If threads discussing this chain of events are going to be systematically pulled or locked, then, like many here, I'm going to be wondering whether I'm part of this community any more.
A community talks- that's the point of it.
If that talk is abusive, damaging, hurtful, then it has to be pulled- no questions about it.
But I'm concerned that what is developing here is the pulling of stuff that is not at all abusive, damaging or hurtful.
Banning someone for good reasons is one thing, but expecting the community to 'never again utter their name' is dodgy as hell
reading this-
[Old link]
and this-
[Old link]
i felt the need to make comment, but, the reply button would not work on either, so I guess they've been locked?
From the perspective of a (long-standing) member of the HOP community, i felt it was important to put forward two points-
1. why some may feel the need to talk about the banning of another long-standing member of the community, not necessarily to criticise those who made that decision, but, simply because that is what community members do when someone is exiled- they feel the need to talk about it
2. address the posted comment by a mod that, from the perspectice of a mod, any discussion of said members banning, is necessarily disrespectful to the mods
To elaborate on point 2, IMO, the discussion on the threads that have been removed or locked, did not come across as disrespectful to the mods.
To question a decision is not necessarily disrespectful.
It's true that the banning of NYC has gone largely unnoticed, till now. But, now, it has very much been noticed and, to expect this community to not talk about it, is, IMO, unrealistic.
There may be very good background reasons why it's seen as best for no discussion to take place, but, obviously, from the perspective of the community, those reasons are not known.
I know it's a difficult thing to make judgements on.
The main thing I want to say is that I find it very unpleasent when multiple threads are locked or removed, when, in my eyes, they contained nothing offensive.
I would also like the mods to examine the possibility that the pulled/stoped discussions are actually not disrespectful to HOP or the mods, but are simply members of the community discussing something which is important to them.
I'm assuming that this thread is not also going to be seen as disrespectful- it's certainly not intended as such.
If threads discussing this chain of events are going to be systematically pulled or locked, then, like many here, I'm going to be wondering whether I'm part of this community any more.
A community talks- that's the point of it.
If that talk is abusive, damaging, hurtful, then it has to be pulled- no questions about it.
But I'm concerned that what is developing here is the pulling of stuff that is not at all abusive, damaging or hurtful.
Banning someone for good reasons is one thing, but expecting the community to 'never again utter their name' is dodgy as hell
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
SILVER Member
Momma Bear
4,525 posts
Location: Telford, Shrops, United Kingdom
Momma Bear
4,525 posts
Location: Telford, Shrops, United Kingdom
Posted:
A couple of points I'd like to contribute:
1) thank you for letting us the freedom of expression in this thread
2) no one is 'disrespecting the mods', of course not, only discussing what's happened.
3) calling meg a 'stirrer' is not fair. Meg's had the guts to say how a lot of us have felt and for that I'm glad.
4) Losing a well-loved member of the forum, we need to grieve their loss, and in that we need to discuss it and come to terms with it.
A couple of points I'd like to contribute:
1) thank you for letting us the freedom of expression in this thread
2) no one is 'disrespecting the mods', of course not, only discussing what's happened.
3) calling meg a 'stirrer' is not fair. Meg's had the guts to say how a lot of us have felt and for that I'm glad.
4) Losing a well-loved member of the forum, we need to grieve their loss, and in that we need to discuss it and come to terms with it.
Hoppers are angels who lift us to our feet when our wings have trouble remembering how to fly.
SILVER Member
what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
4,030 posts
Location: Bali, Australia
what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
4,030 posts
Location: Bali, Australia
Posted:
My call has been heard. Thanks Flashfire.
BTW It is not FT's post I am referring to above, but another nasty one that thankfully has been removed. So although my thread now reads a bit oddly (an identifying quote in it was edited by a mod) I do think there are fair ears about.
Written by :FireTom
btw Newgabe: so far it seems as if your call remains unheard
My call has been heard. Thanks Flashfire.
BTW It is not FT's post I am referring to above, but another nasty one that thankfully has been removed. So although my thread now reads a bit oddly (an identifying quote in it was edited by a mod) I do think there are fair ears about.
.....Can't juggle balls but I sure as hell can juggle details....
BRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
5,814 posts
Location: Perth, Australia
Carpal \'Tunnel
5,814 posts
Location: Perth, Australia
Posted:
How active does a MOD have to be to be considered active. The few issues that have happened on HOP seem to be dealt with superquick so someone is doing their job. So quick I only get to see the aftermath.
It would be nice to see a " face of HOP" person posting more. I miss George and his friendly posts.
How active does a MOD have to be to be considered active. The few issues that have happened on HOP seem to be dealt with superquick so someone is doing their job. So quick I only get to see the aftermath.
It would be nice to see a " face of HOP" person posting more. I miss George and his friendly posts.
Is it the Truth?
Is it Fair to all concerned?
Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?
Im in a lonely battle with the world with a fish to match the chip on my shoulder. Gnu in Binnu in a cnu
BRONZE Member
wandering thru the woods of WI
3,556 posts
Location: Wisconsin, USA
wandering thru the woods of WI
3,556 posts
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posted:
I just wanted to say I understand where the mods are coming from. I just admin a little Christian group and it gets pretty interesting in there.
I'm sure the banning was not an easy decision
How active they are has nothing to do with their ability to moderate/admin.
I like pele as a mod and as a poster and recognize the difference.
And obviously firetom did not get NYC ousted because if he had the power I wouldn't be here 
I just wanted to say I understand where the mods are coming from. I just admin a little Christian group and it gets pretty interesting in there.
I'm sure the banning was not an easy decision
How active they are has nothing to do with their ability to moderate/admin.
I like pele as a mod and as a poster and recognize the difference.
And obviously firetom did not get NYC ousted because if he had the power I wouldn't be here
Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed
BRONZE Member
had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
4,145 posts
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)
had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
4,145 posts
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)
Posted:
I'd like to add a thought about locking threads. (It's about locking threads only. Not about the ban or mods or personal enmities.)
You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this BB to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, ...
I do feel that, in the context of the locked original thread, this does apply on more than one account. I never saw the deleted ones so can't comment, though I generally agree that it would be nice to have a placeholder or something.
After clarification of there being several reasons for the ban, Fire Tom was still accused of being the instigator, and it was suggested that he should have been banned instead being the "less useful" one. Locking a thread that's turning into slagging someone off and finding a scapegoat where it's been made clear that more than just the two people were involved is not the same as stopping a constructive discussion.
Written by :PyroWill
It seems that the closure of the thread was the higher ups saying 'we dont want you talking about this anymore' and we are expected to just agree with the decision.
I'd like to add a thought about locking threads. (It's about locking threads only. Not about the ban or mods or personal enmities.)
You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this BB to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, ...
I do feel that, in the context of the locked original thread, this does apply on more than one account. I never saw the deleted ones so can't comment, though I generally agree that it would be nice to have a placeholder or something.
After clarification of there being several reasons for the ban, Fire Tom was still accused of being the instigator, and it was suggested that he should have been banned instead being the "less useful" one. Locking a thread that's turning into slagging someone off and finding a scapegoat where it's been made clear that more than just the two people were involved is not the same as stopping a constructive discussion.
"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)
Owner of Dragosani's left half
BRONZE Member
Classically British
5,689 posts
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England
Classically British
5,689 posts
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England
Posted:
Just blame E_war_ (LTC) - it's usually his fault anyway.
Just blame E_war_ (LTC) - it's usually his fault anyway.
Burner of Toast
Spinner of poi
Slacker of enormous magnitude
BRONZE Member
1 + 1 = 3
3,540 posts
Location: Bristol UK
1 + 1 = 3
3,540 posts
Location: Bristol UK
Posted:
*reports above post to mods*
*reports above post to mods*
Empty your mind. Be formless, Shapeless, like Water.
Put Water into a cup, it becomes the cup, put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle, put water into a teapot, it becomes the teapot.
Water can flow, or it can Crash.
Be Water My Friend.
BRONZE Member
Sitting down facing forward . . .
2,387 posts
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
Sitting down facing forward . . .
2,387 posts
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
Posted:
Ok, in light of the amount of curiosity about this, I'll go furhter than we have so far and say the following about NYC's banning:
a) The rules are still accurate
b) of the following subset of the rules, NYC was spoken to on multiple occasions by multiple mods for posts/PMs/e-mails that violated about half of the list. Behaviour continued unchanged.
More specific details I'm not happy to provide and even this I feel is stretching the limits of what we should say, so I hope it's enough to satisfy everyone's curiosity.
Written by :Spanner
I think a lot of the curiosity stems from those who have "known" NYC over the years online not being able to think of what kind of FAQ-busting behaviour someone like him could've possibly demonstrated to provoke his ban.
What are the rules?
We don't need to know all the gory details, but regardless of whether NYC's behaviour was against the rules, every HoP member needs to know whether, in light in of this, the rules are still accurate.
Ok, in light of the amount of curiosity about this, I'll go furhter than we have so far and say the following about NYC's banning:
a) The rules are still accurate
b) of the following subset of the rules, NYC was spoken to on multiple occasions by multiple mods for posts/PMs/e-mails that violated about half of the list. Behaviour continued unchanged.
Written by :Rules subset
You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this BB to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise violative of any law.
More specific details I'm not happy to provide and even this I feel is stretching the limits of what we should say, so I hope it's enough to satisfy everyone's curiosity.
Written by: Doc Lightning talking about Marmite in Kichi's Intro thread
I have several large jars of the stuff. I actually like it... a little. And don't tell anyone I admitted to it. 
BRONZE Member
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Posted:
Completely agree, Birgit.
Written by :Birgit
After clarification of there being several reasons for the ban, Fire Tom was still accused of being the instigator, and it was suggested that he should have been banned instead being the "less useful" one. Locking a thread that's turning into slagging someone off and finding a scapegoat where it's been made clear that more than just the two people were involved is not the same as stopping a constructive discussion.
Completely agree, Birgit.
i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey
Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
Because she's the one who sticks her neck out.
Written by :Durbs
As people keep saying, Pele isn't the only mod, but she really seems to be the mod people have the most issues with. I can't think of any others who've been so "controversial" in their operations. Pele herself has said that most of the modding goes on behind the scenes, so why is she have the only mod that people regularly have issue with?
Because she's the one who sticks her neck out.
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
I just wanted to point out that over in "Chat" we're all having a great time laughing with each-other.
We'll make it through this crisis. We always have. So those of you who are thinking about leaving, please don't. Please don't.
We'll make it. It's not the first of these things I've seen and it's not the last there will be. We all like each-other, so let's keep that in mind.
I just wanted to point out that over in "Chat" we're all having a great time laughing with each-other.
We'll make it through this crisis. We always have. So those of you who are thinking about leaving, please don't. Please don't.
We'll make it. It's not the first of these things I've seen and it's not the last there will be. We all like each-other, so let's keep that in mind.
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
Stargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
Faith: I shalt send you more Puppies?
Second I'm kind of irritated about the course all this has been taking
I fully side Mike: Pele's the one who sticks her neck out, takes a firm position and stands for her (unpopular) decisions (taken by more than just one mod). She's the one who moderates and participates as a frequent poster on this board - that might create animosities and be the real reason for opposing her.
And further I side him when stating: don't leave for that stirring please - you'r participation is valued and important
EDITED_BY: FireTom (1208923358)
Faith: I shalt send you more Puppies?
Second I'm kind of irritated about the course all this has been taking
I fully side Mike: Pele's the one who sticks her neck out, takes a firm position and stands for her (unpopular) decisions (taken by more than just one mod). She's the one who moderates and participates as a frequent poster on this board - that might create animosities and be the real reason for opposing her.
And further I side him when stating: don't leave for that stirring please - you'r participation is valued and important
EDITED_BY: FireTom (1208923358)
the best smiles are the ones you lead to 
SILVER Member
Tantamount to fatuity
15,966 posts
Location: Down the road, United Kingdom
Tantamount to fatuity
15,966 posts
Location: Down the road, United Kingdom
Posted:
*sits in the corner, dreamily musing on erstwhile smotings and lightning bolts flung...* Ah halcyon days
Written by :PK_And what, may I ask, is a God Complex between friends?
And as for new mods appointed?
I remember the whole cantus / Mod thing some years ago! how hilarious was that? ...
*sits in the corner, dreamily musing on erstwhile smotings and lightning bolts flung...* Ah halcyon days
Meh
BRONZE Member
Lambretta Fanatic
4,997 posts
Location: United Kingdom
Lambretta Fanatic
4,997 posts
Location: United Kingdom
Posted:
nothing at all!... lol
Written by :Cantus
And what, may I ask, is a God Complex between friends?
nothing at all!... lol GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
I don't have a god complex.
I am god. Not complex at all.
*preens*
*trips and falls flat on face in a tub of Nutella* Mmmmm!
I don't have a god complex.
I am god. Not complex at all.
*preens*
*trips and falls flat on face in a tub of Nutella* Mmmmm!
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
DIAMOND Member
The Ministry of Manipulation
2,523 posts
Location: Bristol, United Kingdom
The Ministry of Manipulation
2,523 posts
Location: Bristol, United Kingdom
Posted:
Quote Firetom:
> However all this being the reason that I would like to renew my stance to the mods that
> -- I WOULD LOVE TO SEE NYC BACK ON THIS BOARD!
> and would hereby "officially" ask the mods, George and Malcolm to review the decision taken.
Asking for the stable door to be re-opened after the horse has bolted?
NYC is NOT coming back. For fairly obvious reasons, he has no interest in coming back.
____________________________________
Having researched carefully (in Jan), and spoken with and e-mailed several of the parties involved.
In my opinion, in 9 1/2 years this is the worst event that has happened to the community in the history of the HOP forums. The damage done to the HOP community and is a sad thing to see, and will take a long time to regrow that which is lost.
____________________________________
In the last few days, it appears that shutting thread and attempting to publicly gag any discussion about a topic does not seem to be making it "go away" - it seems to be fanning the flames further.
____________________________________
George: Thanks for your explanation - sorry for not writing a full reply. Yep, I think we both knew these threads were coming - I'm surprised it took 4 months.
With what comes next..... Good luck.
____________________________________
Nope I don't have an answer either.
Quote Firetom:
> However all this being the reason that I would like to renew my stance to the mods that
> -- I WOULD LOVE TO SEE NYC BACK ON THIS BOARD!
> and would hereby "officially" ask the mods, George and Malcolm to review the decision taken.
Asking for the stable door to be re-opened after the horse has bolted?
NYC is NOT coming back. For fairly obvious reasons, he has no interest in coming back.
____________________________________
Having researched carefully (in Jan), and spoken with and e-mailed several of the parties involved.
In my opinion, in 9 1/2 years this is the worst event that has happened to the community in the history of the HOP forums. The damage done to the HOP community and is a sad thing to see, and will take a long time to regrow that which is lost.
____________________________________
In the last few days, it appears that shutting thread and attempting to publicly gag any discussion about a topic does not seem to be making it "go away" - it seems to be fanning the flames further.
____________________________________
George: Thanks for your explanation - sorry for not writing a full reply. Yep, I think we both knew these threads were coming - I'm surprised it took 4 months.
With what comes next..... Good luck.
____________________________________
Nope I don't have an answer either.
GOLD Member
HoP's Barman. Trapped aged 6 months
4,437 posts
Location: Staines, United Kingdom
HoP's Barman. Trapped aged 6 months
4,437 posts
Location: Staines, United Kingdom
Posted:
This really seems to have turned into a topic of discussion about whether the mod's should be more present in the forum or not. I think this is totally missing the point. For me (and I may be alone here) it is mostly about as Drew said
"In the last few days, it appears that shutting thread and attempting to publicly gag any discussion about a topic does not seem to be making it "go away" - it seems to be fanning the flames further."
In terms of my opinion of the mod's it has only made me doubt certain decision making abilities, rather than the need more more/less of their presence.
This really seems to have turned into a topic of discussion about whether the mod's should be more present in the forum or not. I think this is totally missing the point. For me (and I may be alone here) it is mostly about as Drew said
"In the last few days, it appears that shutting thread and attempting to publicly gag any discussion about a topic does not seem to be making it "go away" - it seems to be fanning the flames further."
In terms of my opinion of the mod's it has only made me doubt certain decision making abilities, rather than the need more more/less of their presence.
An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind
Give a man a fish and he'll eat 4 a day hit a man with a brick and you can have all his fish and his wife
"Will's to pretty for prison" - Simian
BRONZE Member
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
Posted:
"In the last few days, it appears that shutting thread and attempting to publicly gag any discussion about a topic does not seem to be making it "go away" - it seems to be fanning the flames further."
*non-mod observation*
ummmm....this thread has been open for days. As far as I know, it hasn't even been concidered for locking or moving.
I just think it is now a bit odd to be 4 pages and a few days into a discussion and still using this as a complaint.
Just sayin'
"In the last few days, it appears that shutting thread and attempting to publicly gag any discussion about a topic does not seem to be making it "go away" - it seems to be fanning the flames further."
*non-mod observation*
ummmm....this thread has been open for days. As far as I know, it hasn't even been concidered for locking or moving.
I just think it is now a bit odd to be 4 pages and a few days into a discussion and still using this as a complaint.
Just sayin'
Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
Yeah, they didn't shut this one. I think they figured out after the first three attempts that it wasn't going to work.
See, acknowledging that what you're doing isn't working demonstrates maturity. And that's what I'm glad to see from the mods.
Maybe it's not fair to hold a mistake against them when they corrected the mistake once they realized it?
I'm sure there are a few people wondering if I'm pele's lapdog. But I'm not. I'm one of the oldest members of this board and I've been here longer than some of the mods. I know them very well. There are group of very mature and wise men and women with a good sense of people. Some of them are very reserved and only speak when absolutely necessary. Some of them are more vocal and involved. Their job, as mods, is to moderate the board and to keep it within the forum guidelines. They also help to make this community the amazing thing that it is.
Think of what this board is. I have good friends just about anywhere that English is spoken and in a few places where Spanish is spoken thanks to this board.
And like any such community, we're going to hit our bumps. It isn't due to any insufficiency on the part of the mods. It's just because we're a human community and stuff like this happens. And every time, the mods take a beating. I just find it so unfair. They have such a thankless job. And sometimes, as part of their job, they have to hurt people. And I know each and every one of them and I know how much that sucks.
So stick with it and we'll get through this together.
And please, for heaven's sake, stop taking it out on the mods. They didn't commit any crime. They were just trying to maintain the peace.
Yeah, they didn't shut this one. I think they figured out after the first three attempts that it wasn't going to work.
See, acknowledging that what you're doing isn't working demonstrates maturity. And that's what I'm glad to see from the mods.
Maybe it's not fair to hold a mistake against them when they corrected the mistake once they realized it?
I'm sure there are a few people wondering if I'm pele's lapdog. But I'm not. I'm one of the oldest members of this board and I've been here longer than some of the mods. I know them very well. There are group of very mature and wise men and women with a good sense of people. Some of them are very reserved and only speak when absolutely necessary. Some of them are more vocal and involved. Their job, as mods, is to moderate the board and to keep it within the forum guidelines. They also help to make this community the amazing thing that it is.
Think of what this board is. I have good friends just about anywhere that English is spoken and in a few places where Spanish is spoken thanks to this board.
And like any such community, we're going to hit our bumps. It isn't due to any insufficiency on the part of the mods. It's just because we're a human community and stuff like this happens. And every time, the mods take a beating. I just find it so unfair. They have such a thankless job. And sometimes, as part of their job, they have to hurt people. And I know each and every one of them and I know how much that sucks.
So stick with it and we'll get through this together.
And please, for heaven's sake, stop taking it out on the mods. They didn't commit any crime. They were just trying to maintain the peace.
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
GOLD Member
HoP's Barman. Trapped aged 6 months
4,437 posts
Location: Staines, United Kingdom
HoP's Barman. Trapped aged 6 months
4,437 posts
Location: Staines, United Kingdom
Posted:
I feel what was said is still relevant simply because I believe the main issue hasn't been picked up on by mod's and that they believe the 'issue' is that their presence is not felt online, hence George's new Mod thread asking what we expect from mod's in terms of their online presence.
This seems to not be the issue I think. In fact most people have been saying they are happy with the mod's presence, and that the issue is about the 'trigger happy' locking/deleting of threads. So until the mod's review the decision process on locking threads I think this issue will continue.
P.S. No disrespect to the mods
Written by :Pele
I just think it is now a bit odd to be 4 pages and a few days into a discussion and still using this as a complaint.
Just sayin'
I feel what was said is still relevant simply because I believe the main issue hasn't been picked up on by mod's and that they believe the 'issue' is that their presence is not felt online, hence George's new Mod thread asking what we expect from mod's in terms of their online presence.
This seems to not be the issue I think. In fact most people have been saying they are happy with the mod's presence, and that the issue is about the 'trigger happy' locking/deleting of threads. So until the mod's review the decision process on locking threads I think this issue will continue.
P.S. No disrespect to the mods
An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind
Give a man a fish and he'll eat 4 a day hit a man with a brick and you can have all his fish and his wife
"Will's to pretty for prison" - Simian
BRONZE Member
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
Posted:
PW, no one is ever happy when things are locked or deleted, or even moved sometimes.
What has been said several times is that it isn't a "trigger happy" thing. The fact that there haven't been locked threads in *months* is testament to this. If it were about being "trigger happy" or attempting to hide/avoid confrontation, I can think of *several* threads that would have been locked under those circumstances, like any dealing with fire breathing, for example
The fact that this thread has a different tone to the others and has remained open is a testament to that.
The mods and admins understand that concern. "Place holders" or public statements will now be used when threads are deemed in need of such actions. However, those found in violation of the rules, either in tone or content, will be prone to action.
The activity/visibility of the mods was brought into question, and as such it is also being dealt with, as you know.
The current legitimacy of the rules was brought into question, and they were reviewed.
We *do* listen, to everyone.
We *do* pay attention, to everyone.
We *do* understand, and if adjustments are deemed necessary, they are made. They have been several times over the years. Hey, I can remember when HoP didn't even have rules and what a controversy implementing them was. (yes, I know, my cane and rocking chair are showing)
No disrespect taken. I/we understand that you want to make sure we get your point. We do, seriously, we do.
PW, no one is ever happy when things are locked or deleted, or even moved sometimes.
What has been said several times is that it isn't a "trigger happy" thing. The fact that there haven't been locked threads in *months* is testament to this. If it were about being "trigger happy" or attempting to hide/avoid confrontation, I can think of *several* threads that would have been locked under those circumstances, like any dealing with fire breathing, for example
The fact that this thread has a different tone to the others and has remained open is a testament to that.
The mods and admins understand that concern. "Place holders" or public statements will now be used when threads are deemed in need of such actions. However, those found in violation of the rules, either in tone or content, will be prone to action.
The activity/visibility of the mods was brought into question, and as such it is also being dealt with, as you know.
The current legitimacy of the rules was brought into question, and they were reviewed.
We *do* listen, to everyone.
We *do* pay attention, to everyone.
We *do* understand, and if adjustments are deemed necessary, they are made. They have been several times over the years. Hey, I can remember when HoP didn't even have rules and what a controversy implementing them was. (yes, I know, my cane and rocking chair are showing)
No disrespect taken. I/we understand that you want to make sure we get your point. We do, seriously, we do.
Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Posted:
I've got to say that I see no real difference between the tone of this thread and the tone of Bluecats-
[Old link]
Admittedly, when I started this thread, diplomacy was very much in my mind, as, given what had happened with Bluecats, I half-expected it to get locked as well: but, looking at the two threads I still don't see why Bluecats was problematic and, i can't help thinking that, if I was Bluecat, I'd be feeling a bit put-out and wondering why I been locked.
That aside, to say something positive, i do appreciate what you say about the feelings of the community being taken into account and the changes that have been/are being made.
Written by :Pele
The fact that this thread has a different tone to the others and has remained open is a testament to that.
I've got to say that I see no real difference between the tone of this thread and the tone of Bluecats-
[Old link]
Admittedly, when I started this thread, diplomacy was very much in my mind, as, given what had happened with Bluecats, I half-expected it to get locked as well: but, looking at the two threads I still don't see why Bluecats was problematic and, i can't help thinking that, if I was Bluecat, I'd be feeling a bit put-out and wondering why I been locked.
That aside, to say something positive, i do appreciate what you say about the feelings of the community being taken into account and the changes that have been/are being made.
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
BRONZE Member
Lambretta Fanatic
4,997 posts
Location: United Kingdom
Lambretta Fanatic
4,997 posts
Location: United Kingdom
Posted:
i do.
We all know why it was moved along with mcp's thread by the mods, I don't think that it warranted yet another thread to call out the Mods to see why they did it.
To me it reads that there was enticement there for an answer to mcps questions/ideals from the mods and admins in the most public way; not that it was anyone's concern other than the parties involved in said incident.
Dave, your thread has given topical debate, leading to the creation of other threads from the admins that maybe will do hop some good. I think that this alone should tell you the difference in tone.
Written by :onewheeldaveWritten by :Pele
The fact that this thread has a different tone to the others and has remained open is a testament to that.
I've got to say that I see no real difference between the tone of this thread and the tone of Bluecats-
i do.We all know why it was moved along with mcp's thread by the mods, I don't think that it warranted yet another thread to call out the Mods to see why they did it.
To me it reads that there was enticement there for an answer to mcps questions/ideals from the mods and admins in the most public way; not that it was anyone's concern other than the parties involved in said incident.
Dave, your thread has given topical debate, leading to the creation of other threads from the admins that maybe will do hop some good. I think that this alone should tell you the difference in tone.
PLATINUM Member
Flying Water Muppet
5,276 posts
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom
Flying Water Muppet
5,276 posts
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom
Posted:
Doesn't it worry people that respected old-school members of the community are worried about getting their threads locked? (Even when written diplomatically) The new members of the community probably aren't going to dare start a thread on anything even close to a controversial issue even when they have legitimate concerns.
Is this form of self censorship what you want hop to be?
Family friendly is a very politically charged idea anyway, but now we can't even discuss how hop works. We just have to hope that the secret police don't disappear you and your threads.
Written by :onewheeldave
Admittedly, when I started this thread, diplomacy was very much in my mind, as, given what had happened with Bluecats, I half-expected it to get locked as well:
Doesn't it worry people that respected old-school members of the community are worried about getting their threads locked? (Even when written diplomatically) The new members of the community probably aren't going to dare start a thread on anything even close to a controversial issue even when they have legitimate concerns.
Is this form of self censorship what you want hop to be?
Family friendly is a very politically charged idea anyway, but now we can't even discuss how hop works. We just have to hope that the secret police don't disappear you and your threads.
"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade
I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.
GOLD Member
just lost .... evil init
2,474 posts
Location: Adelaide, Australia
just lost .... evil init
2,474 posts
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Posted:
PK it is not clear to all of us, can you quote the line or lines from robs thread which caused it to be shut down cos i am having trouble seeing it how the thread breaks the hop rules.
PK it is not clear to all of us, can you quote the line or lines from robs thread which caused it to be shut down cos i am having trouble seeing it how the thread breaks the hop rules.
Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?
SILVER Member
fluffy mess
197 posts
Location: Brighton, United Kingdom
fluffy mess
197 posts
Location: Brighton, United Kingdom
Posted:
From what I can see, speaking as a bubblegum poster who generally sticks to fluffy threads, who only sometimes gets involved with discussions, but still follows them religiously...
I had no idea any of this was going on, but managed to follow the whole thing quite nicely once it got picked up on the general HOP radar by reading the various threads relating to it (locked and not).I completely understand why the mods might feel it necissary to remove or lock threads (I'm not saying they were right or wrong, just that I understand that threads like these might cause alarm bells to ring as now, many many people who were unaware now know someone got banned and some of the people involved, which may or may not be a bit embarrassing/touchy/sensitive/otheremotionalwordofyourchoice for those involved- I don't know, but it's possible).
What I'm really glad to see though, is that once HOPpers made it known that they were not happy about being made to feel that they were not allowed to talk about things that upset them (even though this was not the intention of the mods), the mods listened and have, since then allowed discussions to continue. It's just nice to know that they can make decisions, as a group,maybe even mistakes (not that this was or wasn't a mistake), but eventually are willing to pay attention to the feelings of the community. In all UNfairness, they could have gone on locking threads forever, but they didn't, and have actively been trying to sort the situation out.
Had none of this happened, and the mods had left all the threads open, it is possible that their fears may have been realised and the threads possibly turned very nasty.
Because of the way things transpired, most who have posted have been extra cautious with what they have said (which is necissary when dealing with a sensitive subject), and everyone has been able to discuss their feelings in a civilised manner.
Just something I noticed.
From what I can see, speaking as a bubblegum poster who generally sticks to fluffy threads, who only sometimes gets involved with discussions, but still follows them religiously...
I had no idea any of this was going on, but managed to follow the whole thing quite nicely once it got picked up on the general HOP radar by reading the various threads relating to it (locked and not).I completely understand why the mods might feel it necissary to remove or lock threads (I'm not saying they were right or wrong, just that I understand that threads like these might cause alarm bells to ring as now, many many people who were unaware now know someone got banned and some of the people involved, which may or may not be a bit embarrassing/touchy/sensitive/otheremotionalwordofyourchoice for those involved- I don't know, but it's possible).
What I'm really glad to see though, is that once HOPpers made it known that they were not happy about being made to feel that they were not allowed to talk about things that upset them (even though this was not the intention of the mods), the mods listened and have, since then allowed discussions to continue. It's just nice to know that they can make decisions, as a group,maybe even mistakes (not that this was or wasn't a mistake), but eventually are willing to pay attention to the feelings of the community. In all UNfairness, they could have gone on locking threads forever, but they didn't, and have actively been trying to sort the situation out.
Had none of this happened, and the mods had left all the threads open, it is possible that their fears may have been realised and the threads possibly turned very nasty.
Because of the way things transpired, most who have posted have been extra cautious with what they have said (which is necissary when dealing with a sensitive subject), and everyone has been able to discuss their feelings in a civilised manner.
Just something I noticed.
"I want to know if you can see beauty even when it's not pretty, every day,and if you can source your own life from its presence.." - Oriah Mountain Dreamer
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Posted:
Perhaps an unfair comparison, given that this thread wasn't locked and the other one was
As a bit of feedback to those who are involved in what is increasingly looking to be an issue fueled by long-standing personality differences and board politics, I feel it's worht pointing out that, for many of us, it's not at all true that 'we all know why it was moved...'
Not having seem MCPs posts, I genuinely have no idea why it was moved- having seen some of MCPs previous posts, I can imagine that, in terms of tone, it could have been overly colourful: but, not having seen it, I'm not going to make that presumption.
I'm in no way saying it shouldn't have been removed- that's a decision mods have to make- I'm simply pointing out that, if anyones under the impression that 'we all know...' then, the fact is, we don't.
I did read bluecats post though, and stand by what i said above- it's still available for public viewing and, if anyone can show me what it is in that thread that led to a locking, i would be very interested in knowing what it was.
And, if anyone in the know feels that the only way to answer that question is to bring in a history of (perhaps personal/confidential) peronality-conflict based politics- then that is an indication that, from the perspective of those not involved in that hidden world, the decision to lock Bluecats thread, could be seen as a bit dubious where impartiality is concerned.
Written by :PK_
We all know why it was moved along with mcp's thread by the mods, I don't think that it warranted yet another thread to call out the Mods to see why they did it.
To me it reads that there was enticement there for an answer to mcps questions/ideals from the mods and admins in the most public way; not that it was anyone's concern other than the parties involved in said incident.
Dave, your thread has given topical debate, leading to the creation of other threads from the admins that maybe will do hop some good. I think that this alone should tell you the difference in tone.
Perhaps an unfair comparison, given that this thread wasn't locked and the other one was
As a bit of feedback to those who are involved in what is increasingly looking to be an issue fueled by long-standing personality differences and board politics, I feel it's worht pointing out that, for many of us, it's not at all true that 'we all know why it was moved...'
Not having seem MCPs posts, I genuinely have no idea why it was moved- having seen some of MCPs previous posts, I can imagine that, in terms of tone, it could have been overly colourful: but, not having seen it, I'm not going to make that presumption.
I'm in no way saying it shouldn't have been removed- that's a decision mods have to make- I'm simply pointing out that, if anyones under the impression that 'we all know...' then, the fact is, we don't.
I did read bluecats post though, and stand by what i said above- it's still available for public viewing and, if anyone can show me what it is in that thread that led to a locking, i would be very interested in knowing what it was.
And, if anyone in the know feels that the only way to answer that question is to bring in a history of (perhaps personal/confidential) peronality-conflict based politics- then that is an indication that, from the perspective of those not involved in that hidden world, the decision to lock Bluecats thread, could be seen as a bit dubious where impartiality is concerned.
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Posted:
One thing that's become very apparent PK, is that Bluecats thread was seen as some kind of put-down of the mods.
I think, in the context of the post as it was written, that can't be seen: maybe, in the context of stuff that's been said before between the involved parties, maybe it can be seen as a dig?
I don't know, I'm not involved in that way.
What it did remind me of though, was a conversation many years ago with our mutual friend Jo.
At that time, he was very involved with a major conflict on another internet board, which, to a smaller extent, had slipped across to this one.
This was obviously causing him a great deal of stress and having a bad effect on him.
He showed me some of the posts in question, which, he said, contained personal insults to him.
I saw nothing- I genuinely could not see those insults. So, he sat me down and led me into his world, pulling up past threads, showing how a seemingly innocent comment contained hidden meanings known only to the few people involved.
He then pointed out that i was very naive, that, on this very board, there were similar posts having a go at me, but I was just too unaware to see it.
I had no doubt that all this was very real to him and, I'm aware that, when it comes to subtle social interaction, I am, by nature, somewhat lacking in many ways.
But, seeing the effect this was having on him, I had no inclination whatsoever to increase my abilities to perceive this kind of stuff and told him, in the most diplomatic way I could, that he should, IMO, let it all go.
Because, if living in a world-view where actute awareness of status, put-downs and conflict are prime, leads to what i was seeing in him, then, personally, I'll happily focus on cultivating ignorance and naivity.
That's an extreme case of course, but, what I'm seeing recently with this talk of mods being insulted, is reminding me of it.
An insult to a mod, is an insult to a mod and, as such, needs to be dealt with (possibly removed)- but, a preceived insult to a mod, is not necessarily an insult and, when it comes to it being based on several years of interactions/conflicts/dissapointments between strong personalities, it can be almost impossible to distinguish between what is perceived and what is actual.
In those cases, I'd suggest not moderating a post unless it contains a problem which is apparent to anyone reading it, rather than just a select few who are involved in the hidden, background issue.
That way, I think everyone knows where they stand.
One thing that's become very apparent PK, is that Bluecats thread was seen as some kind of put-down of the mods.
I think, in the context of the post as it was written, that can't be seen: maybe, in the context of stuff that's been said before between the involved parties, maybe it can be seen as a dig?
I don't know, I'm not involved in that way.
What it did remind me of though, was a conversation many years ago with our mutual friend Jo.
At that time, he was very involved with a major conflict on another internet board, which, to a smaller extent, had slipped across to this one.
This was obviously causing him a great deal of stress and having a bad effect on him.
He showed me some of the posts in question, which, he said, contained personal insults to him.
I saw nothing- I genuinely could not see those insults. So, he sat me down and led me into his world, pulling up past threads, showing how a seemingly innocent comment contained hidden meanings known only to the few people involved.
He then pointed out that i was very naive, that, on this very board, there were similar posts having a go at me, but I was just too unaware to see it.
I had no doubt that all this was very real to him and, I'm aware that, when it comes to subtle social interaction, I am, by nature, somewhat lacking in many ways.
But, seeing the effect this was having on him, I had no inclination whatsoever to increase my abilities to perceive this kind of stuff and told him, in the most diplomatic way I could, that he should, IMO, let it all go.
Because, if living in a world-view where actute awareness of status, put-downs and conflict are prime, leads to what i was seeing in him, then, personally, I'll happily focus on cultivating ignorance and naivity.
That's an extreme case of course, but, what I'm seeing recently with this talk of mods being insulted, is reminding me of it.
An insult to a mod, is an insult to a mod and, as such, needs to be dealt with (possibly removed)- but, a preceived insult to a mod, is not necessarily an insult and, when it comes to it being based on several years of interactions/conflicts/dissapointments between strong personalities, it can be almost impossible to distinguish between what is perceived and what is actual.
In those cases, I'd suggest not moderating a post unless it contains a problem which is apparent to anyone reading it, rather than just a select few who are involved in the hidden, background issue.
That way, I think everyone knows where they stand.
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
BRONZE Member
wandering thru the woods of WI
3,556 posts
Location: Wisconsin, USA
wandering thru the woods of WI
3,556 posts
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posted:
I just think this one stayed open because it was less agressive in the beginning
And mods never want to delete a thread because there always seems to be a backlash and hurt feelings. I'm sure that the mods here aren't interested in doing that
And one of the hardest things is deciding where the lines of posting are. Even objectively. In a group like this, the undertones can be more evident due to the mods knowing many of the posters. Some like to dance along the very fine line. Some posters get too comfortable since they have been around for so long and somehow, probably not intentionally, they might feel as though the rules don't apply in the same manner
All I know is it sometimes really sucks being a mod
I just think this one stayed open because it was less agressive in the beginning
And mods never want to delete a thread because there always seems to be a backlash and hurt feelings. I'm sure that the mods here aren't interested in doing that
And one of the hardest things is deciding where the lines of posting are. Even objectively. In a group like this, the undertones can be more evident due to the mods knowing many of the posters. Some like to dance along the very fine line. Some posters get too comfortable since they have been around for so long and somehow, probably not intentionally, they might feel as though the rules don't apply in the same manner
All I know is it sometimes really sucks being a mod
Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed
BRONZE Member
Lambretta Fanatic
4,997 posts
Location: United Kingdom
Lambretta Fanatic
4,997 posts
Location: United Kingdom
Posted:
I so second your last post Dave!! nice one.
and yes our mutual friend Jo, I remember the story very well and I lost a very good friend in the process amongst all of that, but there was never any conflict here on this forum, just a few posts here and there and I was a member of the other forum too so i read all of the goings on, but I do agree, I think that you have to understand where the conflict stems from from their point of view, because I had the same feelings on you in all of that.
I so second your last post Dave!! nice one.
and yes our mutual friend Jo, I remember the story very well and I lost a very good friend in the process amongst all of that, but there was never any conflict here on this forum, just a few posts here and there and I was a member of the other forum too so i read all of the goings on, but I do agree, I think that you have to understand where the conflict stems from from their point of view, because I had the same feelings on you in all of that.
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