Forums > Social Discussion > Should pedophiles recieve the death penalty?
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just lost .... evil init
2,474 posts
Location: Adelaide, Australia
just lost .... evil init
2,474 posts
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Posted:
Ive just read about the proposals to execute pedophiles. I did a search and I did see [Old link] but the discussion on that thread is a bit all over the place. So id like to direct it a little bit more and ask people to adhere to the following underlying assumptions that if need discussion should be put in another thread
1. The pedophile has been found guilty from irrefutable evidence (ie found photos of the pedophile performing the act or whatever, such that their is no doubt they are guilty)
2. The prison system does not rehabilitate inmates
3. Chemical castration is not 100% preventative (ie it doesn't address the psychological disorders that cause some pedophiles to want to hurt children)
4. The mental health system is currently overloaded with many patents not receiving the care they need (ie there are lots of cracks for pedophiles to fall through if they where to be put into treatment)
5. Pedophiles are often released early from jail after only serving a few years
So assuming that the above statements 2-5 are unlikely to change and statement 1 is true do you think that pedophiles should continue to be sentenced to short jail terms and then allowed back into the community or should they receive the death penalty for the consequences of their actions or is their another realistic option?
EDITED_BY: ben-ja-men (1180430928)
Ive just read about the proposals to execute pedophiles. I did a search and I did see [Old link] but the discussion on that thread is a bit all over the place. So id like to direct it a little bit more and ask people to adhere to the following underlying assumptions that if need discussion should be put in another thread
1. The pedophile has been found guilty from irrefutable evidence (ie found photos of the pedophile performing the act or whatever, such that their is no doubt they are guilty)
2. The prison system does not rehabilitate inmates
3. Chemical castration is not 100% preventative (ie it doesn't address the psychological disorders that cause some pedophiles to want to hurt children)
4. The mental health system is currently overloaded with many patents not receiving the care they need (ie there are lots of cracks for pedophiles to fall through if they where to be put into treatment)
5. Pedophiles are often released early from jail after only serving a few years
So assuming that the above statements 2-5 are unlikely to change and statement 1 is true do you think that pedophiles should continue to be sentenced to short jail terms and then allowed back into the community or should they receive the death penalty for the consequences of their actions or is their another realistic option?
EDITED_BY: ben-ja-men (1180430928)
Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?
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Location: Cheshire, United Kingdom
Posted:
that kind of makes sense if you look at pounce's explanation of paedohpile vs child molester. Seems the media has once again mis-appropriated a word, and clouded an already murky issue even further!
that kind of makes sense if you look at pounce's explanation of paedohpile vs child molester. Seems the media has once again mis-appropriated a word, and clouded an already murky issue even further!
'The last rays of crimson on the spindle tree as the cerise fruit splits and reveals its orange seeds in a gloriously clashing colour scheme no-one would ever dare to wear'
Euonymous Europeus
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6,650 posts
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Posted:
[post deleted for viewing reasons of this page/ thread...]
For informations about differences in "age of consent", please refer to the link provided a few posts further down...
EDITED_BY: FireTom (1180975784)
[post deleted for viewing reasons of this page/ thread...]
For informations about differences in "age of consent", please refer to the link provided a few posts further down...
EDITED_BY: FireTom (1180975784)
the best smiles are the ones you lead to 
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Pooh-Bah
1,872 posts
Location: Canada
Pooh-Bah
1,872 posts
Location: Canada
Posted:
oops.....when I made that comment about what are the pedos going to feast on, I thought I was responding to wording in one of Pounce's posts..on rereading, I find myself in error. To clarify, I was using feast as a simile for indulging in this type of behaviour and speculating, that in the absence of children, pedos would need some kind of surrogate for their "affections"
But just suppose....There's an uncle Chester type child groper/molester who repeatedly offends without casing any physical harm to a child. The child's parents figure something is going on and set a trap for uncle Chester ( hidden video cam, maybe ) and supply the justice system with irrefutable proof of Chester's actions.
Now Chester is found guilty, and sentenced to death...
Death row inmates typically spend years waiting to be executed, and in those years the child may grow up to be adamantly opposed to capital punishment/ In theory, we could have the child victim ( now a teenage victim ) protesting the execution of the very person who victimized them in the first place.
To extend that....suppose the molester has already been executed before the child is mature enough to hold their own opinions on capital punishment...Then what ? Might the child feel responsible for causing someone's death ?
Gita..I've never heard of anyone here being charged with pedophilia....most commonly it's possession of child porn or touching or something more specific than the generalities covered under the term pedophilia.
Yea..little girls dressing up sexy...that really pisses me off....Being male, I have a genetic predisposition to check out ANYTHING wearing a short skirt, heel and halter top and when I do, only to find that outfit being sported by an 10 year old I find myself in the mind if a pedophile for a fraction of a second ( until reality kicks in ) and find myself wanting to hunt down that child's mother ( really, how many fathers are dressing their girls like this???) and give her a slap upside the head for making me look at something in a way I don't want to be looking at that something .
oops.....when I made that comment about what are the pedos going to feast on, I thought I was responding to wording in one of Pounce's posts..on rereading, I find myself in error. To clarify, I was using feast as a simile for indulging in this type of behaviour and speculating, that in the absence of children, pedos would need some kind of surrogate for their "affections"
But just suppose....There's an uncle Chester type child groper/molester who repeatedly offends without casing any physical harm to a child. The child's parents figure something is going on and set a trap for uncle Chester ( hidden video cam, maybe ) and supply the justice system with irrefutable proof of Chester's actions.
Now Chester is found guilty, and sentenced to death...
Death row inmates typically spend years waiting to be executed, and in those years the child may grow up to be adamantly opposed to capital punishment/ In theory, we could have the child victim ( now a teenage victim ) protesting the execution of the very person who victimized them in the first place.
To extend that....suppose the molester has already been executed before the child is mature enough to hold their own opinions on capital punishment...Then what ? Might the child feel responsible for causing someone's death ?
Gita..I've never heard of anyone here being charged with pedophilia....most commonly it's possession of child porn or touching or something more specific than the generalities covered under the term pedophilia.
Yea..little girls dressing up sexy...that really pisses me off....Being male, I have a genetic predisposition to check out ANYTHING wearing a short skirt, heel and halter top and when I do, only to find that outfit being sported by an 10 year old I find myself in the mind if a pedophile for a fraction of a second ( until reality kicks in ) and find myself wanting to hunt down that child's mother ( really, how many fathers are dressing their girls like this???) and give her a slap upside the head for making me look at something in a way I don't want to be looking at that something .
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Star Trekker
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Star Trekker
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Posted:
Yup - you're not alone and you're so right
Tom/anyone - the black area is 'UN Rights Violation'
a) what does that mean?
b) A big chunk of Nostralia??
Yup - you're not alone and you're so right
Tom/anyone - the black area is 'UN Rights Violation'
a) what does that mean?
b) A big chunk of Nostralia??
'The last rays of crimson on the spindle tree as the cerise fruit splits and reveals its orange seeds in a gloriously clashing colour scheme no-one would ever dare to wear'
Euonymous Europeus
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old hand
853 posts
Location: Behind you...
old hand
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Location: Behind you...
Posted:
Pounce, thanks for the excellent post and detailed information.
I was trying to think of a way to put this without anyone taking it the wrong way - for some reason I was worried people might equate it as me saying that homsexuality is 'bad' in some way, or that paedophilia is 'ok' because it occurs naturally in some people as a sort of sexuality.
When I was studying the anthropology of sex and gender, we were talking a lot about the origins of sexuality (i.e. are your sexual preferences genetic, or a cultural/socially learned behaviour, or a bit of both?). Nobody knows for sure, but it's complicated issue - the problem is people think that if sexual preference is culturally/socially learned then there must be an element of choice in the matter, which is not necessarily so. One theory suggests that we are all born sexual, with desire, but the forms and behaviours which our desires manifest as are socially/culturally learned - this whole theory is quite controversial, I'm wondering what the implications are in terms of this discussion. Sorry, slightly
On the death penalty - like FireTom, I would say no, I don't think it is ever justifiable but that's my own opinion - vengeance and anger are human instinct when we have been hurt by others, but this doesn't automatically mean that this is the right way to deal with the pain, or the offender.
Pounce, thanks for the excellent post and detailed information.
Written by: pounce
To believe we can "rehabilitate" this type of person is like believing we can rehabilitate homosexuality. These people only find sexual attraction with children.
I was trying to think of a way to put this without anyone taking it the wrong way - for some reason I was worried people might equate it as me saying that homsexuality is 'bad' in some way, or that paedophilia is 'ok' because it occurs naturally in some people as a sort of sexuality.
When I was studying the anthropology of sex and gender, we were talking a lot about the origins of sexuality (i.e. are your sexual preferences genetic, or a cultural/socially learned behaviour, or a bit of both?). Nobody knows for sure, but it's complicated issue - the problem is people think that if sexual preference is culturally/socially learned then there must be an element of choice in the matter, which is not necessarily so. One theory suggests that we are all born sexual, with desire, but the forms and behaviours which our desires manifest as are socially/culturally learned - this whole theory is quite controversial, I'm wondering what the implications are in terms of this discussion. Sorry, slightly
On the death penalty - like FireTom, I would say no, I don't think it is ever justifiable but that's my own opinion - vengeance and anger are human instinct when we have been hurt by others, but this doesn't automatically mean that this is the right way to deal with the pain, or the offender.
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had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
4,145 posts
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)
Posted:
I like the "seeing both sides of the story" idea. I don't think most of us know what it's like to be abused as a child. I don't think most of us know what it's like to have urges that you know are wrong and that will harm innocent children, but you are unable to resist.
So, it would seem that most here are unable to see either side of the story. Shall we leave the decision to child abusers who have been abused themselves, then? I don't think so...
I like the "seeing both sides of the story" idea. I don't think most of us know what it's like to be abused as a child. I don't think most of us know what it's like to have urges that you know are wrong and that will harm innocent children, but you are unable to resist.
So, it would seem that most here are unable to see either side of the story. Shall we leave the decision to child abusers who have been abused themselves, then? I don't think so...
"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)
Owner of Dragosani's left half
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Posted:
Okay, please excuse, but the format of the map I posted is simply annoying. Could you please refer to the link?
Wikipedia map: "Age of consent"
Entire article
Or someone is so kind, downloads and resizes it for us??? *wiggles eyebrows*
EDITED_BY: FireTom (1180975958)
Okay, please excuse, but the format of the map I posted is simply annoying. Could you please refer to the link?
Wikipedia map: "Age of consent"
Entire article
Or someone is so kind, downloads and resizes it for us??? *wiggles eyebrows*
EDITED_BY: FireTom (1180975958)
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
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All the neurotic makings of America's lesser known sweetheart
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All the neurotic makings of America's lesser known sweetheart
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Location: body in Las Vegas, heart all around the world, USA
Posted:
WHOA WHOA WHOA, wait a minute here. Now I admit I take personal offense to this being a psychologist and an investigator, but you're making a huge assumption right there. Yes, there have been some crappy investigators out there, but we have come a LONG way over the years. I just completed a 40-hour intensive course taught by all the major professions in the field (detectives, attorneys, social workers, psychologists, etc.) on JUST investigative interviewing and how to ensure you aren't asking suggestive or leading questions. It was taught by one of the leading and internationally recognized organizations on this stuff, and they go around and train all sorts of agencies in every state in America, as well as some agencies internationally. Feel free to check out their website www.apsac.org American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children (APSAC). Don't assume that from the small handful of major media cases in which that was the case that the profession hasn't learned from the mistakes of the idiots ten years ago.
Ok, sorry, I'm done taking offense now
I only read that post and haven't even gotten to the rest of them after that yet.
*continues reading*
Written by: FireTom
What about suggestive questions that children get asked by psychologists and investigators?
WHOA WHOA WHOA, wait a minute here. Now I admit I take personal offense to this being a psychologist and an investigator, but you're making a huge assumption right there. Yes, there have been some crappy investigators out there, but we have come a LONG way over the years. I just completed a 40-hour intensive course taught by all the major professions in the field (detectives, attorneys, social workers, psychologists, etc.) on JUST investigative interviewing and how to ensure you aren't asking suggestive or leading questions. It was taught by one of the leading and internationally recognized organizations on this stuff, and they go around and train all sorts of agencies in every state in America, as well as some agencies internationally. Feel free to check out their website www.apsac.org American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children (APSAC). Don't assume that from the small handful of major media cases in which that was the case that the profession hasn't learned from the mistakes of the idiots ten years ago.
Ok, sorry, I'm done taking offense now
I only read that post and haven't even gotten to the rest of them after that yet. *continues reading*
I was always scared with my mother's obsession with the good scissors. It made me wonder if there were evil scissors lurking in the house somewhere.
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.
**giggles**
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had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
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had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
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Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)
Posted:
I think Tom wasn't trying to say they ask suggestive questions because they don't KNOW better, pounce... try and convince me that for example in the Michael Jackson case the boy wasn't asked suggestive questions
I think Tom wasn't trying to say they ask suggestive questions because they don't KNOW better, pounce... try and convince me that for example in the Michael Jackson case the boy wasn't asked suggestive questions
"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
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Posted:
Very well put and an interesting way to look at it.
Wow, I think that's a very good way to look at it. I think that point alone makes me heavily lean towards being against the death penalty. As a therapist, I try to help my clients move towards peace within themselves and attempting to integrate their experience into something positive (i.e., I like who I am today, my experiences have created who I am, therefore I accept my experience as something integral in my life). And it would be interesting how putting their offender to death might take that away and potentially affect their emotional growth.
Birgit....But that's my point, it's these high profile media cases that make all the millions of appropriate interviews become questioned as to their veracity. I'm not saying those few cases aren't sad and unfair, but it's frustrating from my side of it that this is always brought up. The amount of false reports and inappropriate interviews is actually extremely small.
Written by: Dixie
Resorting to the death penalty because our prison service and mental care facilities are defective is wrong.
It is a defeatist approach which would ultimately harm society as a whole.
The problem lies with society.
No matter how many we kill, more will be born, grow up, and develop into dangerous child abusers.
I fail to see how capital punishment addresses societal and cultural failings.
Very well put and an interesting way to look at it.
Written by: Stout
Death row inmates typically spend years waiting to be executed, and in those years the child may grow up to be adamantly opposed to capital punishment/ In theory, we could have the child victim ( now a teenage victim ) protesting the execution of the very person who victimized them in the first place.
To extend that....suppose the molester has already been executed before the child is mature enough to hold their own opinions on capital punishment...Then what ? Might the child feel responsible for causing someone's death ?
Wow, I think that's a very good way to look at it. I think that point alone makes me heavily lean towards being against the death penalty. As a therapist, I try to help my clients move towards peace within themselves and attempting to integrate their experience into something positive (i.e., I like who I am today, my experiences have created who I am, therefore I accept my experience as something integral in my life). And it would be interesting how putting their offender to death might take that away and potentially affect their emotional growth.
Birgit....But that's my point, it's these high profile media cases that make all the millions of appropriate interviews become questioned as to their veracity. I'm not saying those few cases aren't sad and unfair, but it's frustrating from my side of it that this is always brought up. The amount of false reports and inappropriate interviews is actually extremely small.
I was always scared with my mother's obsession with the good scissors. It made me wonder if there were evil scissors lurking in the house somewhere.
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.
**giggles**
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Posted:
Well in the case I had the chance to come real close to, that person did everything but love herself.
She got diagnosed as suffering from borderline syndrom, first by her ex boyfriend. This has been confirmed by institutions, but her ex-boyfriend - and hobby psychologist - is convinced that it was her father, who molested her. She believed him. Later I told her many times to be careful with such allegations (she couldn't definitely remember who it was, etc.) - even though his contact with his children has not been a distinct parent-children behaviour (not unusual for mid 70's) - but as this seemed to feel right to her, she believed it. For a couple of years now there is a deep rupture going through the family and she avoids all contact with him (himself having been a victim to abuse, when he was a child).
In a session with a psychologist, things were to be boiled up and he (in tears) exclaimed to have never touched her inappropriate, in fact the reverse: he eagerly tried to avoid any contact that could have been validated "sexual", and from early childhood on avoided to touch or look at her intimate body parts. Yet he had a very close relationship to her - she being kind of a "buddy", as he had constant struggle with his wife. Today he is broken, many various health issues are affecting his life - she can't get over it (yet) and nobody really/ definitely can come to a conclusion.
Personally I have never been molested sexually by my mother, but my privacy has been invaded (her enjoying seeing me naked in the bathroom and cuddling up naked behind me when I was about twelve). From this respect I do have a very very very slightest idea of the emotional turmoil running through a teenagers head when her/his privacy gets invaded - nothing compared to "real" sexual abuse.
The helplessness and the tension in a child, being deprived by a person against whom natural love and intellectual respect is prevalent, must leave great (emotional) injury itself - not to speak in the case of physical abuse.
When checking the "age of consent" page on Wiki, somebody posted a few names at the top of the page, accused them to be paedophiles in NSW and asked everybody to immediately call the police when they hear these names. This entry is fortunately gone now. I regard this very troubling.
My point being: There is a witch hunt going on and for a parent it must be one of the harshest accusations ever to have molested the own child (if not true). Some people have different boundaries when it comes to the contact with (their) children and teenagers, but the thought of having sex with them might never arise - hence I reckon it is the child's side that counts in this.
I'm far from siding perpetrators and people who indulge on children, but at the same time I would be careful, before charging someone. Child abuse - IMO - is a very very truculent crime. It is close to (charging someone with) murder.
Pounce: I wouldn't dare to question your professionalism, or that of psychologists/ investigators in general. I worded it incorrectly and sloppy. But as psychology has been part of my graduation: Would you not agree that psychologists (after all) are humans, too?
As to suggestive questionnaire, I don't doubt that methods have improved, but I had to come across a very interesting article about false memories, written by Elizabeth F. Loftus, please read it, as it's about "false memories".
I don't have all the answers and certainly am not right on everything, even if my wording seems to indicate that once and so often - please do take into account that English is still my second language - however I just would like to ask a few people here on the board: Please stop to assume the worst of all interpretations whenever I put something out out for discussion. Please.
EDITED_BY: FireTom (1181039565)
Well in the case I had the chance to come real close to, that person did everything but love herself.
She got diagnosed as suffering from borderline syndrom, first by her ex boyfriend. This has been confirmed by institutions, but her ex-boyfriend - and hobby psychologist - is convinced that it was her father, who molested her. She believed him. Later I told her many times to be careful with such allegations (she couldn't definitely remember who it was, etc.) - even though his contact with his children has not been a distinct parent-children behaviour (not unusual for mid 70's) - but as this seemed to feel right to her, she believed it. For a couple of years now there is a deep rupture going through the family and she avoids all contact with him (himself having been a victim to abuse, when he was a child).
In a session with a psychologist, things were to be boiled up and he (in tears) exclaimed to have never touched her inappropriate, in fact the reverse: he eagerly tried to avoid any contact that could have been validated "sexual", and from early childhood on avoided to touch or look at her intimate body parts. Yet he had a very close relationship to her - she being kind of a "buddy", as he had constant struggle with his wife. Today he is broken, many various health issues are affecting his life - she can't get over it (yet) and nobody really/ definitely can come to a conclusion.
Personally I have never been molested sexually by my mother, but my privacy has been invaded (her enjoying seeing me naked in the bathroom and cuddling up naked behind me when I was about twelve). From this respect I do have a very very very slightest idea of the emotional turmoil running through a teenagers head when her/his privacy gets invaded - nothing compared to "real" sexual abuse.
The helplessness and the tension in a child, being deprived by a person against whom natural love and intellectual respect is prevalent, must leave great (emotional) injury itself - not to speak in the case of physical abuse.
When checking the "age of consent" page on Wiki, somebody posted a few names at the top of the page, accused them to be paedophiles in NSW and asked everybody to immediately call the police when they hear these names. This entry is fortunately gone now. I regard this very troubling.
My point being: There is a witch hunt going on and for a parent it must be one of the harshest accusations ever to have molested the own child (if not true). Some people have different boundaries when it comes to the contact with (their) children and teenagers, but the thought of having sex with them might never arise - hence I reckon it is the child's side that counts in this.
I'm far from siding perpetrators and people who indulge on children, but at the same time I would be careful, before charging someone. Child abuse - IMO - is a very very truculent crime. It is close to (charging someone with) murder.
Pounce: I wouldn't dare to question your professionalism, or that of psychologists/ investigators in general. I worded it incorrectly and sloppy. But as psychology has been part of my graduation: Would you not agree that psychologists (after all) are humans, too?
As to suggestive questionnaire, I don't doubt that methods have improved, but I had to come across a very interesting article about false memories, written by Elizabeth F. Loftus, please read it, as it's about "false memories".
I don't have all the answers and certainly am not right on everything, even if my wording seems to indicate that once and so often - please do take into account that English is still my second language - however I just would like to ask a few people here on the board: Please stop to assume the worst of all interpretations whenever I put something out out for discussion. Please.
EDITED_BY: FireTom (1181039565)
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
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Posted:
Point to note: castration, chemical or otherwise does not necessarily remove the ability or the desire to achieve penetrative intercourse, link to follow:
not overly explicit, but totally honest: https://www.geocities.com/sherrylanina/CastrationEffects.html
This is the account of a 31 yearold male who has had the procedure perfomed ellectively.
Emasculation on the other hand is the total removal of the generative organs, a truely terrifying punishment.
Point to note: castration, chemical or otherwise does not necessarily remove the ability or the desire to achieve penetrative intercourse, link to follow:
not overly explicit, but totally honest: https://www.geocities.com/sherrylanina/CastrationEffects.html
This is the account of a 31 yearold male who has had the procedure perfomed ellectively.
Emasculation on the other hand is the total removal of the generative organs, a truely terrifying punishment.
BRONZE Member
had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
4,145 posts
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had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
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Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)
Posted:
Pounce, I know what you mean. I think most of us here know that this is true. It's just that, if one in a thousand lawyers do that, and even only once in their lives, you'll have an as you say "extremely small" amount of people condemned to jail. Which is bad enough, given the reputation pedophiles rightly enjoy there, and the treatment that goes with it.
Now I know no legal system's perfect, but this is about death penalty... an extremely small number of people potentially getting killed in connection with suggestive questions is still too much.
Didn't mean to attack you or other people in legal work in general though, since I have no idea of what actually goes on in court, much less even in America. So it's unfortunately only the high profile cases that the general public learns anything about!
Pounce, I know what you mean. I think most of us here know that this is true. It's just that, if one in a thousand lawyers do that, and even only once in their lives, you'll have an as you say "extremely small" amount of people condemned to jail. Which is bad enough, given the reputation pedophiles rightly enjoy there, and the treatment that goes with it.
Now I know no legal system's perfect, but this is about death penalty... an extremely small number of people potentially getting killed in connection with suggestive questions is still too much.
Didn't mean to attack you or other people in legal work in general though, since I have no idea of what actually goes on in court, much less even in America. So it's unfortunately only the high profile cases that the general public learns anything about!
"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)
Owner of Dragosani's left half
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Location: Cheshire, United Kingdom
Posted:
- that's mutilation of the harshest kind.
Tom's concern about his nearly-girlfriend's 'recovered memories', ably assisted by a well-meaning amateur, brought to mind another scenario, in some ways more sinister.
I'd known my current beau, Colin, for maybe a month, we'd seen alot of each other, things were going well, then we went to visit his neice, a single mum of four.
Her ex-husband came on the phone, was annoyed Colin was there and asked to speak to him. All I could gather from the 1-sided conversation was that this guy was accusing Colin of abusing his neice when she was young. I had time to wonder and decide that nothing I knew about Colin indicated he was capable of even thinking about it, never mind doing it - his whole mien and raison d'etre is about caring and protecting people, particularly women.
He passed the phone to his neice and after a her ex had spoken awhile she said "You shouldn't have said anything, that was just bedroom talk". !!!!!
As I've got to know Colin's family better over the year or so since that night, I now know that her mother (Colin's half sister) accused his father (not her natural father) of abusing her - and she was kicked out of the house for a while (age 18/19, not a child).
The neice's children have subsequently been taken into care due to her drink and drug mis-use and she show's no sign of even wanting to straighten out herself and her life to get them back.
But the point is this, who's to say that the neice's ex couldn't or wouldn't have convinced her of Colin's guilt? Who's to say Colin wouldn't have been accused AND CONVICTED of abusing his neice? And who's to say he wouldn't have been KILLED for it?
I may be wrong but this is my gut instinct - if the death penalty doesn't provide a deterrant to abusers, no fewer children will be abused but innocent people may be (highly likely to be) put to death. I'd far rather keep all of the guilty ones alive for the sake of one innocent one.
- that's mutilation of the harshest kind.Tom's concern about his nearly-girlfriend's 'recovered memories', ably assisted by a well-meaning amateur, brought to mind another scenario, in some ways more sinister.
I'd known my current beau, Colin, for maybe a month, we'd seen alot of each other, things were going well, then we went to visit his neice, a single mum of four.
Her ex-husband came on the phone, was annoyed Colin was there and asked to speak to him. All I could gather from the 1-sided conversation was that this guy was accusing Colin of abusing his neice when she was young. I had time to wonder and decide that nothing I knew about Colin indicated he was capable of even thinking about it, never mind doing it - his whole mien and raison d'etre is about caring and protecting people, particularly women.
He passed the phone to his neice and after a her ex had spoken awhile she said "You shouldn't have said anything, that was just bedroom talk". !!!!!
As I've got to know Colin's family better over the year or so since that night, I now know that her mother (Colin's half sister) accused his father (not her natural father) of abusing her - and she was kicked out of the house for a while (age 18/19, not a child).
The neice's children have subsequently been taken into care due to her drink and drug mis-use and she show's no sign of even wanting to straighten out herself and her life to get them back.
But the point is this, who's to say that the neice's ex couldn't or wouldn't have convinced her of Colin's guilt? Who's to say Colin wouldn't have been accused AND CONVICTED of abusing his neice? And who's to say he wouldn't have been KILLED for it?
I may be wrong but this is my gut instinct - if the death penalty doesn't provide a deterrant to abusers, no fewer children will be abused but innocent people may be (highly likely to be) put to death. I'd far rather keep all of the guilty ones alive for the sake of one innocent one.
'The last rays of crimson on the spindle tree as the cerise fruit splits and reveals its orange seeds in a gloriously clashing colour scheme no-one would ever dare to wear'
Euonymous Europeus
SILVER Member
member
44 posts
Location: Australia
member
44 posts
Location: Australia
Posted:
I understand that some of the States would want to do that. But i think that crimnal should stay in jail for life instead of getting the easy way out of it.
Because if they get the death sentence they aren't really paying for what they have done.
If they stayed in jail for life then they would be paying for what they have done.
That probably makes no sence lol sorry. It's early in the morning and i'm at work haha
I understand that some of the States would want to do that. But i think that crimnal should stay in jail for life instead of getting the easy way out of it.
Because if they get the death sentence they aren't really paying for what they have done.
If they stayed in jail for life then they would be paying for what they have done.
That probably makes no sence lol sorry. It's early in the morning and i'm at work haha
SILVER Member
journeyman
84 posts
Location: USA
journeyman
84 posts
Location: USA
Posted:
There are a lot of grey areas with me on this topic...
But first and foremost... if ANYONE ever sexually abused my child... they'd be dead. Either by me, or the law. No questions asked. I don't want to even think that my child would ever be sexually abused but in the case that they are, oh you can bet a very [censored] pissed off Momma would be on your ass.
People who sexually abuse children make me sick... I do feel the death penalty is right. They stripped away a childs innocence forever, why not take their life?
There are a lot of grey areas with me on this topic...
But first and foremost... if ANYONE ever sexually abused my child... they'd be dead. Either by me, or the law. No questions asked. I don't want to even think that my child would ever be sexually abused but in the case that they are, oh you can bet a very [censored] pissed off Momma would be on your ass.
People who sexually abuse children make me sick... I do feel the death penalty is right. They stripped away a childs innocence forever, why not take their life?
SILVER Member
member
44 posts
Location: Australia
member
44 posts
Location: Australia
Posted:
I guess if i had a child and they were absued i would think about the death sentence but still i find it a quick way out of the punishment.
But wouldn't you rather want the person to be put in jail for life and treated like crap. well however they are treated? I guess i can see it from both sides.
I guess if i had a child and they were absued i would think about the death sentence but still i find it a quick way out of the punishment.
But wouldn't you rather want the person to be put in jail for life and treated like crap. well however they are treated? I guess i can see it from both sides.
SILVER Member
journeyman
84 posts
Location: USA
journeyman
84 posts
Location: USA
Posted:
If my child was sexually abused by someone, and Bubba was allowed to make them their bitch on a daily basis... sure, I'd be all for life in jail...
otherwise... Id still want the fucker dead.
Written by: mystery_black
I guess if i had a child and they were absued i would think about the death sentence but still i find it a quick way out of the punishment.
But wouldn't you rather want the person to be put in jail for life and treated like crap. well however they are treated? I guess i can see it from both sides.
If my child was sexually abused by someone, and Bubba was allowed to make them their bitch on a daily basis... sure, I'd be all for life in jail...
otherwise... Id still want the fucker dead.
SILVER Member
All the neurotic makings of America's lesser known sweetheart
9,831 posts
Location: body in Las Vegas, heart all around the world, USA
All the neurotic makings of America's lesser known sweetheart
9,831 posts
Location: body in Las Vegas, heart all around the world, USA
Posted:
Tom... Elizabeth Loftus's research is not accepted in the majority of the psych world. She's not considered a credible researcher.
Birgit...yes I understand what you're saying, but I'm just arguing the point that we shouldn't automatically criticize the professionals because it can sometimes do just as much harm to interfere with a well-trained professional as it is to believe the findings of an un-trained one. However, I do think those situations are very sad, which is why I take part in helping teach others and participate in as much continuing education I can. And you're right, it's a good case for why we shouldn't use the death penalty in some cases. But let's liken it to murder. Not every murderer is given the death penalty. In crimes as heinous and indisputable as some serial killers, I could support the death penalty. Just as I could potentially support the death penalty for cruel and heinous serial rapists/molestors. (potentially because I still sit on the fence)
Tom... Elizabeth Loftus's research is not accepted in the majority of the psych world. She's not considered a credible researcher.
Birgit...yes I understand what you're saying, but I'm just arguing the point that we shouldn't automatically criticize the professionals because it can sometimes do just as much harm to interfere with a well-trained professional as it is to believe the findings of an un-trained one. However, I do think those situations are very sad, which is why I take part in helping teach others and participate in as much continuing education I can. And you're right, it's a good case for why we shouldn't use the death penalty in some cases. But let's liken it to murder. Not every murderer is given the death penalty. In crimes as heinous and indisputable as some serial killers, I could support the death penalty. Just as I could potentially support the death penalty for cruel and heinous serial rapists/molestors. (potentially because I still sit on the fence)
I was always scared with my mother's obsession with the good scissors. It made me wonder if there were evil scissors lurking in the house somewhere.
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.
**giggles**
Stargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
Pounce: and that made her receive these awards and honors:
Thanks for an open discussion.
Pounce: and that made her receive these awards and honors:
Written by: Wikipedia
In 2004 Loftus was elected to the National Academy of Sciences. In 2005, she won the Grawemeyer Prize in Psychology (to honor ideas of “great significance and impact”). Also in 2005 she was elected to the Royal Society of Edinburgh. In 2006, she was elected to the American Philosophical Society.
Loftus has also received five honorary doctorates for her research, the first in 1982 from Miami University (Ohio), the second in 1990 from Leiden University in the Netherlands, and the third in 1994 from the John Jay College of Criminal Justice in New York - an honorary doctorate of laws. Her 4th honorary doctorate, from the University of Portsmouth in England, was awarded in l998; the 5th, from the University of Haifa is Israel, was awarded in 2005.
She is past president of the Association for Psychological Science, the Western Psychological Association, and the American Psychology-Law Society.
Perhaps one of the most unusual signs of recognition of the impact of Loftus’s research came in a study published by the Review of General Psychology. The study identified the 100 most eminent psychologists of the 20th century, and not surprisingly Freud, Skinner, and Piaget are at the top of that list. Loftus was #58, and the top ranked woman on the list.
Thanks for an open discussion.
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
BRONZE Member
old hand
929 posts
Location: Oregon, USA
old hand
929 posts
Location: Oregon, USA
Posted:
Sorry FireTom but I'd take Pounces word over whatever you dug up on wikipedia anyday.. I wouldn't grant much credit for those "honors" Kermit the Frog has an honorary doctorate afterall
Just because their theories have led to more discoveries and advancements doesn't meant their work is sound. It's not like Freud was right about everything.
Sorry FireTom but I'd take Pounces word over whatever you dug up on wikipedia anyday.. I wouldn't grant much credit for those "honors" Kermit the Frog has an honorary doctorate afterall
Just because their theories have led to more discoveries and advancements doesn't meant their work is sound. It's not like Freud was right about everything.
#homeofpoi -- irc.newnet.net Come talk to us we're bored 
Warning: Please Do Not Jump On The Seals
Stargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
Permanently provoking, permanently twisting the screw... your decision.
Personally I take the word and honours of
- the National Academy of Sciences
- the Royal Society of Edinburgh
- the American Philosophical Society
- the Miami University (Ohio)
- the Leiden University in the Netherlands
- the John Jay College of Criminal Justice in New York
- the University of Haifa in Israel
- the Association for Psychological Science
- the University of Portsmouth in England
- the Western Psychological Association
- the American Psychology-Law Society
- the Review of General Psychology
as an indicator that the researches of Professor Loftus at least get recognised by some part of the psychologists society and that they are to be taken into consideration... If you have any evidence that counters her findings or the content of said Wiki article (in regards of her honors) feel free to post them here.
Freud was not "right" about everything, because in the meantime a lot more research has been undertaken - but a few of his findings are still basically "considerable" in the society of psychologists. btw: what experience, degree and studies have you achieved in the field of psychology?
Permanently provoking, permanently twisting the screw... your decision.
Personally I take the word and honours of
- the National Academy of Sciences
- the Royal Society of Edinburgh
- the American Philosophical Society
- the Miami University (Ohio)
- the Leiden University in the Netherlands
- the John Jay College of Criminal Justice in New York
- the University of Haifa in Israel
- the Association for Psychological Science
- the University of Portsmouth in England
- the Western Psychological Association
- the American Psychology-Law Society
- the Review of General Psychology
as an indicator that the researches of Professor Loftus at least get recognised by some part of the psychologists society and that they are to be taken into consideration... If you have any evidence that counters her findings or the content of said Wiki article (in regards of her honors) feel free to post them here.
Freud was not "right" about everything, because in the meantime a lot more research has been undertaken - but a few of his findings are still basically "considerable" in the society of psychologists. btw: what experience, degree and studies have you achieved in the field of psychology?
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
BRONZE Member
wandering thru the woods of WI
3,556 posts
Location: Wisconsin, USA
wandering thru the woods of WI
3,556 posts
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posted:
wiki is not a source
freud was not right about everything
wiki is not a source
freud was not right about everything
Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed
SILVER Member
Star Trekker
1,733 posts
Location: Cheshire, United Kingdom
Star Trekker
1,733 posts
Location: Cheshire, United Kingdom
Posted:
No-one said it was, it's a route to sources.
What Tom says is factually correct, sufficient learned bodies consider some of this persons work to be reputable, even if not irrefutable, such that it shouldn't be rejected out hand because 1 member of the discussion doesn't hold it in high regard. That isn't helpful to the rest of us who lack the inside field knowledge and worse, it insults our intelligence.
Points noted from both sides on Loftus
Continue.....
No-one said it was, it's a route to sources.
What Tom says is factually correct, sufficient learned bodies consider some of this persons work to be reputable, even if not irrefutable, such that it shouldn't be rejected out hand because 1 member of the discussion doesn't hold it in high regard. That isn't helpful to the rest of us who lack the inside field knowledge and worse, it insults our intelligence.
Points noted from both sides on Loftus
Continue.....
'The last rays of crimson on the spindle tree as the cerise fruit splits and reveals its orange seeds in a gloriously clashing colour scheme no-one would ever dare to wear'
Euonymous Europeus
BRONZE Member
Pooh-Bah
1,872 posts
Location: Canada
Pooh-Bah
1,872 posts
Location: Canada
Posted:
I can't find anything online that agrees with the idea that Ms. Loftus's research has bee widely discredited by the psych community. Sure she's controversial, but that's to be expected given that she's basically accused many mental health workers ( from licences psychiatrists and psychologists, down to "lay counsellors" ) of incompetence in their chosen fields.
I find it interesting that most of this repressed/false memory work was done in the politically correct 1980s and 1990s, when being a victim was sort of in vogue.
One other thing I also came across while reading up on this topic was that the ratio of female/male child sexual abusers was a lot higher than I imagined, and from now on I won't be referring to abusers as strictly male.
I can't find anything online that agrees with the idea that Ms. Loftus's research has bee widely discredited by the psych community. Sure she's controversial, but that's to be expected given that she's basically accused many mental health workers ( from licences psychiatrists and psychologists, down to "lay counsellors" ) of incompetence in their chosen fields.
I find it interesting that most of this repressed/false memory work was done in the politically correct 1980s and 1990s, when being a victim was sort of in vogue.
One other thing I also came across while reading up on this topic was that the ratio of female/male child sexual abusers was a lot higher than I imagined, and from now on I won't be referring to abusers as strictly male.
SILVER Member
All the neurotic makings of America's lesser known sweetheart
9,831 posts
Location: body in Las Vegas, heart all around the world, USA
All the neurotic makings of America's lesser known sweetheart
9,831 posts
Location: body in Las Vegas, heart all around the world, USA
Posted:
Wild Child....How is me--a psychologist--telling you--a non-psychologist--that in the field of psychology, Loftus's work is not highly regarded, an insult to your intelligence?? I was sharing some information specific to my training, not insulting anyone's intelligence. How is Wikipedia a source of information but now apparently I am not? Especially since this topic is my ENTIRE career.
That being said, perhaps I didn't word it as well as I could. Yes, she has provided some good research on false memories and I applaud her incentive and work to contribute to the field, but it's correspondence to sexual abuse is regularly questioned. Her classic research experiment was convincing a child that they had been lost in a supermarket when in fact they had not. Trying to correlate that to sexual abuse is not exactly strong. There are a million other "tell-tale" signs of both actual sexual abuse and fabricated memories. I never said this kind of thing doesn't happen. Sadly, I know for a fact it does. But I'm saying that Elizabeth Loftus's work has been highly criticized in the field.
Look at her "awards." Most are from international associations, which the criterion and training is much different than in America (not that one is "right" and one is "wrong" but I'm talking in terms of her work's correlation to the American field of psychology). Of the American awards and recognition, several are not highly recognized organizations or are not among the most stringent and prestigious organizations. There's a difference between getting your research published by the Journal of Abnormal Psychology and the "APA Monitor."
Stout....all my books are at my office, so I'll have to check tomorrow, but I can give the exact statistics on female abusers. I want to say it's about maybe 10% of all abusers? Don't quote me on that yet though, I need to check to be sure.
Some more interesting statistics for you guys (I just came across them while looking for something else and I though it interesting. They appear to be a collection of several years of statistics, although some of it is a little old)(from https://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/crimoff.htm#sex):
Recidivism
* Within 3 years of release, 2.5% of released rapists were rearrested for another rape.
* Sex offenders were less likely than non-sex offenders to be rearrested for any offense –– 43 percent of sex offenders versus 68 percent of non-sex offenders.
* Sex offenders were about four times more likely than non-sex offenders to be arrested for another sex crime after their discharge from prison –– 5.3 percent of sex offenders versus 1.3 percent of non-sex offenders.
Sex offenders
* The median age of the victims of imprisoned sexual assaulters was less than 13 years old; the median age of rape victims was about 22 years.
* An estimated 24% of those serving time for rape and 19% of those serving time for sexual assault had been on probation or parole at the time of the offense for which they were in State prison in 1991.
* Of the 9,691 male sex offenders released from prisons in 15 States in 1994, 5.3% were rearrested for a new sex crime within 3 years of release.
* Of released sex offenders who allegedly committed another sex crime, 40% perpetrated the new offense within a year or less from their prison discharge.
Child victimizers
* Approximately 4,300 child molesters were released from prisons in 15 States in 1994. An estimated 3.3% of these 4,300 were rearrested for another sex crime against a child within 3 years of release from prison.
* Among child molesters released from prison in 1994, 60% had been in prison for molesting a child 13 years old or younger.
* Offenders who had victimized a child were on average 5 years older than the violent offenders who had committed their crimes against adults. Nearly 25% of child victimizers were age 40 or older, but about 10% of the inmates with adult victims fell in that age range.
Wild Child....How is me--a psychologist--telling you--a non-psychologist--that in the field of psychology, Loftus's work is not highly regarded, an insult to your intelligence?? I was sharing some information specific to my training, not insulting anyone's intelligence. How is Wikipedia a source of information but now apparently I am not? Especially since this topic is my ENTIRE career.
That being said, perhaps I didn't word it as well as I could. Yes, she has provided some good research on false memories and I applaud her incentive and work to contribute to the field, but it's correspondence to sexual abuse is regularly questioned. Her classic research experiment was convincing a child that they had been lost in a supermarket when in fact they had not. Trying to correlate that to sexual abuse is not exactly strong. There are a million other "tell-tale" signs of both actual sexual abuse and fabricated memories. I never said this kind of thing doesn't happen. Sadly, I know for a fact it does. But I'm saying that Elizabeth Loftus's work has been highly criticized in the field.
Look at her "awards." Most are from international associations, which the criterion and training is much different than in America (not that one is "right" and one is "wrong" but I'm talking in terms of her work's correlation to the American field of psychology). Of the American awards and recognition, several are not highly recognized organizations or are not among the most stringent and prestigious organizations. There's a difference between getting your research published by the Journal of Abnormal Psychology and the "APA Monitor."
Stout....all my books are at my office, so I'll have to check tomorrow, but I can give the exact statistics on female abusers. I want to say it's about maybe 10% of all abusers? Don't quote me on that yet though, I need to check to be sure.
Some more interesting statistics for you guys (I just came across them while looking for something else and I though it interesting. They appear to be a collection of several years of statistics, although some of it is a little old)(from https://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/crimoff.htm#sex):
Recidivism
* Within 3 years of release, 2.5% of released rapists were rearrested for another rape.
* Sex offenders were less likely than non-sex offenders to be rearrested for any offense –– 43 percent of sex offenders versus 68 percent of non-sex offenders.
* Sex offenders were about four times more likely than non-sex offenders to be arrested for another sex crime after their discharge from prison –– 5.3 percent of sex offenders versus 1.3 percent of non-sex offenders.
Sex offenders
* The median age of the victims of imprisoned sexual assaulters was less than 13 years old; the median age of rape victims was about 22 years.
* An estimated 24% of those serving time for rape and 19% of those serving time for sexual assault had been on probation or parole at the time of the offense for which they were in State prison in 1991.
* Of the 9,691 male sex offenders released from prisons in 15 States in 1994, 5.3% were rearrested for a new sex crime within 3 years of release.
* Of released sex offenders who allegedly committed another sex crime, 40% perpetrated the new offense within a year or less from their prison discharge.
Child victimizers
* Approximately 4,300 child molesters were released from prisons in 15 States in 1994. An estimated 3.3% of these 4,300 were rearrested for another sex crime against a child within 3 years of release from prison.
* Among child molesters released from prison in 1994, 60% had been in prison for molesting a child 13 years old or younger.
* Offenders who had victimized a child were on average 5 years older than the violent offenders who had committed their crimes against adults. Nearly 25% of child victimizers were age 40 or older, but about 10% of the inmates with adult victims fell in that age range.
I was always scared with my mother's obsession with the good scissors. It made me wonder if there were evil scissors lurking in the house somewhere.
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.
**giggles**
Stargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
Yes - and that is a very scary thing - it is so true that sex offenders are amongst those who seem not to be rehabilitated.
It is very disturbing. Sexuality is such an archaic force and if it's out of control it seems unstoppable - as the fact indicates that some offenders go for another attempt on the day they have been released or whilst they were allowed to leave jail on probation or granted furlough. Under these aspects it could be regarded as an "addiction" - sometimes even stronger than that of heroine.
Thank you for sharing these facts, Pounce - they make clear that sexual offences indeed are amongst the most problematic in the field (which is on reason why the discussion about death penalty for sex offenders/ child molesters came up).
On the other hand: 2.5% - respectively 5.3% of sex offenders and 3.3% of all child victimizers (therefore a minority) hopefully can't make society "kill them all".
Re. Prof. Loftus, I would have thought that Wild Child referred to Lurchs' comment. However her (Loftus) findings are certainly not only questioned and criticised within the US alone (why do I still read some national condescension out of your words?). Please read her article at the link I posted? There are some examples for sexual offences in it, too. I quoted Wikipedia exclusively for her honours - if this information is incorrect "Wikistyle" and erroneous, please share and/or correct the entry at Wikipedia.
However, even reputed breakthrough scientists got criticised and accused of scientific misconduct by the society. Especially in the field of psychology it's not easy to find rocksolid evidence to back up a claim made. But this in itself is no indication that their work has no meaning/ contribution/ benefits for the community. Whereas (for example) some hailed the Rohrschach for a long time, it's disputed today.
Would you agree that "suggestive questions" have been and still are used by some educators, investigators and psychologists, when asking children whether they have been touched inappropriately or abused? The situation of a child is very delicate, as it finds itself in a web of social responsibilities and ties - whilst it's personality is yet to form, and can be formed (even more easy as that of an adult).
All I was trying to indicate in regards of this topic is, that I oppose the death penalty (in itself) and showed evidence that questions it's (legal) application - even when it comes to the most cruel deeds committed.
Certainly there are enough cases of violent and fatal abuse, where the perpetrators identity is undoubted. Yet - even in these cases - I would oppose the death penalty for already mentioned reasons. IMO it is barbaric and outdated.
But rather than again focussing on the symptoms, could we please try to shift and also tackle the root causes?
I have asked some questions in this regard and re-phrase:
"Is it more comfortable to indulge on dark imaginings, than to ask ones-self and society what contribution to the problem we make?"
Yes - and that is a very scary thing - it is so true that sex offenders are amongst those who seem not to be rehabilitated.
It is very disturbing. Sexuality is such an archaic force and if it's out of control it seems unstoppable - as the fact indicates that some offenders go for another attempt on the day they have been released or whilst they were allowed to leave jail on probation or granted furlough. Under these aspects it could be regarded as an "addiction" - sometimes even stronger than that of heroine.
Thank you for sharing these facts, Pounce - they make clear that sexual offences indeed are amongst the most problematic in the field (which is on reason why the discussion about death penalty for sex offenders/ child molesters came up).
On the other hand: 2.5% - respectively 5.3% of sex offenders and 3.3% of all child victimizers (therefore a minority) hopefully can't make society "kill them all".
Re. Prof. Loftus, I would have thought that Wild Child referred to Lurchs' comment. However her (Loftus) findings are certainly not only questioned and criticised within the US alone (why do I still read some national condescension out of your words?). Please read her article at the link I posted? There are some examples for sexual offences in it, too. I quoted Wikipedia exclusively for her honours - if this information is incorrect "Wikistyle" and erroneous, please share and/or correct the entry at Wikipedia.
However, even reputed breakthrough scientists got criticised and accused of scientific misconduct by the society. Especially in the field of psychology it's not easy to find rocksolid evidence to back up a claim made. But this in itself is no indication that their work has no meaning/ contribution/ benefits for the community. Whereas (for example) some hailed the Rohrschach for a long time, it's disputed today.
Would you agree that "suggestive questions" have been and still are used by some educators, investigators and psychologists, when asking children whether they have been touched inappropriately or abused? The situation of a child is very delicate, as it finds itself in a web of social responsibilities and ties - whilst it's personality is yet to form, and can be formed (even more easy as that of an adult).
All I was trying to indicate in regards of this topic is, that I oppose the death penalty (in itself) and showed evidence that questions it's (legal) application - even when it comes to the most cruel deeds committed.
Certainly there are enough cases of violent and fatal abuse, where the perpetrators identity is undoubted. Yet - even in these cases - I would oppose the death penalty for already mentioned reasons. IMO it is barbaric and outdated.
But rather than again focussing on the symptoms, could we please try to shift and also tackle the root causes?
I have asked some questions in this regard and re-phrase:
"Is it more comfortable to indulge on dark imaginings, than to ask ones-self and society what contribution to the problem we make?"
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
SILVER Member
All the neurotic makings of America's lesser known sweetheart
9,831 posts
Location: body in Las Vegas, heart all around the world, USA
All the neurotic makings of America's lesser known sweetheart
9,831 posts
Location: body in Las Vegas, heart all around the world, USA
Posted:
Truly and honestly, there is no national condescension in what I posted. I was just trying to explain the difference in the American psychology field versus other nations, as I don't make any assumptions that viewpoints are the same across the world. I considered studying abroad for my doctorate but decided against it, as the degree would not have been applicable for practicing in the States, hence my (limited) understanding of the differences in the psychology practice across nations.
I never doubted the suggestive questioning has been used in the past, and unfortunately does get used still on occasion. But (and this is my own personal issue, I know, but also for public education) I felt it important to note the changes my field has made over the years. The focus now is training every state to adopt a standardized protocol that includes interviewing with specifically trained forensic interviewers (like the training I received) in order to eliminate the element of suggestibility. And in actuality, the majority of suggestible questioning comes from (well-meaning) therapists who have been treating the client prior to the disclosure and have no knowledge of the forensic arena. Fortunately, the majority of judges will not accept their reports, as they acknowledge the potential bias, and instead order an objective evaluation by a trained professional who can spot undue influence.
Anywho, I suppose we're getting offtopic.
I truly don't know where I stand on the death penalty subject except to lean towards being against it out of caution (not that that's a bad thing). I throw out all these statistics and my experiences working in the field to help educate. And I admit my biases and inability to remain truly objective in this regard to make that kind of decision. There's a big part of me against the death penalty because I don't like the idea of taking someone's life, no matter how evil they are. But I also hear hundreds of stories every day/week/month/year from my clients about the horrific pain they've had to go through, and it breaks my heart.
Truly and honestly, there is no national condescension in what I posted. I was just trying to explain the difference in the American psychology field versus other nations, as I don't make any assumptions that viewpoints are the same across the world. I considered studying abroad for my doctorate but decided against it, as the degree would not have been applicable for practicing in the States, hence my (limited) understanding of the differences in the psychology practice across nations.
I never doubted the suggestive questioning has been used in the past, and unfortunately does get used still on occasion. But (and this is my own personal issue, I know, but also for public education) I felt it important to note the changes my field has made over the years. The focus now is training every state to adopt a standardized protocol that includes interviewing with specifically trained forensic interviewers (like the training I received) in order to eliminate the element of suggestibility. And in actuality, the majority of suggestible questioning comes from (well-meaning) therapists who have been treating the client prior to the disclosure and have no knowledge of the forensic arena. Fortunately, the majority of judges will not accept their reports, as they acknowledge the potential bias, and instead order an objective evaluation by a trained professional who can spot undue influence.
Anywho, I suppose we're getting offtopic.
I truly don't know where I stand on the death penalty subject except to lean towards being against it out of caution (not that that's a bad thing). I throw out all these statistics and my experiences working in the field to help educate. And I admit my biases and inability to remain truly objective in this regard to make that kind of decision. There's a big part of me against the death penalty because I don't like the idea of taking someone's life, no matter how evil they are. But I also hear hundreds of stories every day/week/month/year from my clients about the horrific pain they've had to go through, and it breaks my heart.
I was always scared with my mother's obsession with the good scissors. It made me wonder if there were evil scissors lurking in the house somewhere.
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.
**giggles**
SILVER Member
Star Trekker
1,733 posts
Location: Cheshire, United Kingdom
Star Trekker
1,733 posts
Location: Cheshire, United Kingdom
Posted:
In no sense whatsoever was I implying that your opinions, knowledge, experience and skills are invalid and i apologise unreservedly if you interpreted it that way. I was making the point that just because you have all of those things and we don't that it's unfair of you to expect us to dismiss Loftus' work on your say-so alone, which is how I (and clearly Tom) took your post.
I was calling for a little more respect for each other, so I certainly wasn't disrespecting you or the important work you do - your passion came through and that's probably what we misinterpreted.
Written by: pounce
Wild Child....How is me--a psychologist--telling you--a non-psychologist--that in the field of psychology, Loftus's work is not highly regarded, an insult to your intelligence?? I was sharing some information specific to my training, not insulting anyone's intelligence. How is Wikipedia a source of information but now apparently I am not? Especially since this topic is my ENTIRE career.
In no sense whatsoever was I implying that your opinions, knowledge, experience and skills are invalid and i apologise unreservedly if you interpreted it that way. I was making the point that just because you have all of those things and we don't that it's unfair of you to expect us to dismiss Loftus' work on your say-so alone, which is how I (and clearly Tom) took your post.
I was calling for a little more respect for each other, so I certainly wasn't disrespecting you or the important work you do - your passion came through and that's probably what we misinterpreted.
'The last rays of crimson on the spindle tree as the cerise fruit splits and reveals its orange seeds in a gloriously clashing colour scheme no-one would ever dare to wear'
Euonymous Europeus
SILVER Member
All the neurotic makings of America's lesser known sweetheart
9,831 posts
Location: body in Las Vegas, heart all around the world, USA
All the neurotic makings of America's lesser known sweetheart
9,831 posts
Location: body in Las Vegas, heart all around the world, USA
Posted:
I'm sorry if I came across that way, but I don't expect anyone to dismiss research just because I say so. My goal is to educate
I'm sorry if I came across that way, but I don't expect anyone to dismiss research just because I say so. My goal is to educate
I was always scared with my mother's obsession with the good scissors. It made me wonder if there were evil scissors lurking in the house somewhere.
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.
**giggles**
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