Forums > Social Discussion > Size zero...

Posted: 23rd Apr 2007
I have a friend that is size zero naturally, but she is only about 5' 2". I probably am the only person that will say this, but i would quite like to be a size zero (if it didn't involve all the vomiting etc) and i'm 5' 11".

ummmm...........anybody have any suggestions as to what i can put here?!

mjk is monitoring your interwebs!

Posted: 23rd Apr 2007
I go through stages. I used to really want to be as small as possible.....but I don't know anymore..I'm currently a size 8 and I'd probably feel like crap if I put anymore weight on.....but...size 0 is insane..to be honest at 5'11 and a size zero you would look terrible.

I know how easy it is to fall into the if I was thinner I'd be more attractive way of thinking..and it gets bad when you do get really thina nd everyone compliments you on how thin you are. I have starved..I've purged and I've restricted in the past and it is not a good thing or a decent road to go down and I really wouldn't advice going down it. Luckly I never developed a full blown eating disorder and whilst sometimes i look in the mirror and think "blah your so fat" realisticly I know that I am not and that if i were to be a size zero i would probably look terrible.

Also generally what i found is that the smaller you get the less clothes you find to fit you...which to me made me feel worse then "being fat" did..due to the fact i couldn't dress myself right and therefore felt just as ugly as i had felt "fat".....

The fact is size zero is not healthy.

Posted: 23rd Apr 2007
Actually, you might be interested in a study a friend of mine is doing as a side project at work. We work in a daycare, and she's doing a small survey for one of her college classes. She has taken a drawing of an average weight woman and made two more drawings, adjusting the image to make a "scrawny" and "fat" version. The head, hair, face, are all the same. She just made a perfectly health, average woman have unnatural and sickly proportions to the two extremes of weight. I even helped her carefully plan her strokes and angles to help enhance this and hopefully through the results to get children to pick the "fat" version by using softer, flowing strokes and curves.

She's been asking the children what image they prefer and recording it by both age/gender, and by what movie we've been watching (to ensure that we don't accidentally throw a wrench into the study with media influence). What's really interesting is, despite all the care we've been taking to try to influence them towards picking the average or larger girl by playing movies that have larger characters as heroes, or with the way it was drawn- THEY ALL PICK THE SKINNY ONE!

It's scary, considering the "average" girl is a healthy, natural seeming weight, with little fat to her (maybe 17-19%) The skinny girl that we drew would have made supermodels jealous.... or repulsed with how sickly skinny she is. I mean, we intentionally worked it out that the skinny girl should be undesireable with how angular and bony she is.... and they still pick her over the average girl!

We were wondering what would happen if we changed the gender to a male model.

"So long and thanks for all the fish."

Posted: 23rd Apr 2007
I watched that last night.. as a woman of 30 I feel that there is far too much pressure on younger women and girls to look thin. I
find the whole thing quite sad to be honest as I have been through the whole anorexia thing in the past and i can say that once you are there, even if you do recovery it's always with you - bit like alcoholism or any other addiction.

I was a size 10 on top and a 12 bum when I was in a relationship and quite happy about my body shape, but I'm single now - cooking for one is just pants - so I've lost a bit of weight and now and I can fit a size 8 top and 10 bottoms.. I really really don't want to loose anymore wieght as I can feel my bones and just don't want to go there.

I find it sad that people are driven to such lenghts in order to fit into what the media class as 'normal'. Thinner is not better - but neither is fat. I went to a club for the first time in about 8 years and noted that when I was going there regulary (years ago) all the girls my age where super skinny, but this time all the girls round 18- 25 were very round and pudgy.. it just seems that there is problem on both sides of the weight divide..

Ask any man over 25 what they prefure and nearly always you will get the answer 'woman that I can hold on to' or 'cuddly' - size zero should not be seen as sexy - far from it, it's gaunt, boney and should not be strived for in my opinion.

I feel that size obsession is an illness that society needs to address, before it makes an entire generation ill.. to be size 0 you need to bypass nutrition - *decides to stop before full rant mode is initated*

Love the skin you are in! eat healthy and exercise - don't try to be something you are not..

I honour you as an aspect of myself..

You are never to old to storm a bouncey castle..

Posted: 23rd Apr 2007
the above, size zero is not a healthy figure to aspire to, except the few people to whom it is natural (in which case, it shouldn't be that they 'aspire' to be this size - they just are).

Kathian, I found your friend's study quite interesting. It just shows how deeply embedded the idea of skinny=beautiful is in modern western culture. It's probably surrounded the kids in the study their whole lives in one form or another. Even with media influences aside, if you ask little girls to draw pictures of, say, cinderella or other 'beautiful' princess types from fairy tales and stories, I'll bet that most of them will draw skinny girls. It's all quite scary really.

Idolized by Aurinoko

Take me disappearing through the smoke rings of my mind....

Bob Dylan

Posted: 23rd Apr 2007
which is a shame again, because if you look at art work through the ages, woman painted seem to be on the more voluptuous side - it's only this century that seems to be hooked on the 'heroin waif ' and the what I call 'the holocaust' look that has come into fashion.. which I find extremely disturbing - I will never be able to understand how malnutrician can be sexy..?

I blame Barbie dolls and the media for getting into the heads of kiddies these days.. when I was young (over 25 years ago ) I was much more concerned with making mud pies and playing with worms and snails than I was makeup and high heels..

I honour you as an aspect of myself..

You are never to old to storm a bouncey castle..

Posted: 23rd Apr 2007
Yeah it's definitely something that's happened this century and probably goes hand in hand with the growth of consumerism and the modern obsession with image in general. I remember reading Bordeaux's 'distinction', written in the early 1900s, where he talks about an emerging society that 'values form over function' - originally, in his view this was what distinguished the 'upper classes' from the rest of society, that they had the luxury and ability to choose things based on aesthetic appearance rather than usefulness.

Not sure where this post is going.....

I guess I'm just wondering at what point did body image become a prominent issue for ordinary people in their daily lives? People must have always had an awareness of their image as part of their sense of self, it's just I suspect that it's much more of a big deal for people now than, say, 100 years ago...

...Unless 100 years ago it was still a big deal for people to look a certain way to appear 'beautiful', but people didn't hear about it all the time as there was a lack of mass media?

Perhaps 100 years ago different communities used to have different ideas about what was 'beautiful', but industrialisation, migration and the emergence of new media served to gradually homogenise everyone's ideas about beauty into roughly the same form?

Now I'm just rambling, sorry!

Idolized by Aurinoko

Take me disappearing through the smoke rings of my mind....

Bob Dylan

Posted: 23rd Apr 2007
The poll question is a bit odd in my opinion.

"Is thinner better?"... better than what?
than being unhealthily fat? Yes it is.
than Jam Sandwiches? Not a chance.
than being unhealthily underweight? Yes it is.
then being "normal" sized? Nope.

Greatly underweight people are just like greatly overweight people. They both make me upset for the person- skinny people need to eat more, and overweight people need to eat less. Its really bad for their health.

Besides, I heard they dont let fat people in the navy as they show up on enemy radar, and they dont let skinny people in as when they turn sideways, they turn invisible and people trip over them.

Posted: 23rd Apr 2007
100 years ago, the whole partner hunt was more about status and "politics". But I'm fairly sure that if there were more than 1 suitable and obtainable partner, beauty came into the decision. If contemporary literature is anything to go by, beauty was important then, too.

I don't think women would've put belladonna drops in their eyes and completely blur their vision for hours, or put up with being forced into huge dresses and corsets no matter what the weather, if it wasn't for trying to look pretty.

I'm also slightly doubtful about the "natural size 0s look good, but dieted ones look sick" attitude. It's an easy thing to say, but I bet most people who think so wouldn't be able to distinguish without seeing the way the person in question acts around food.

Completely agreed with UCOF about the poll

"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

Posted: 23rd Apr 2007
It's interesting to thing about how today's media is affecting girls. I do agree that Barbie probably had something to do with it, along with those god-awful Bratz dolls (although, those Barbie My Scene dolls look like total prostitutes. I saw one that seriously looked exactly like one of the girls from an HBO special on hookers in LA right down to the same clothes and makeup!!!

However, the interesting thing really is studying media as a whole leading up to today's unbalanced image of beauty. Up until around the Victorian era, women were often protrayed as either average or fat. Around the arise of Art Nouveau and the Gibson girls, you could still see what we consider, today, to be "fat" women in artwork, media, and advertising. I had already noticed the trend slightly with History of Graphic design and the fact that I love looking at old advertising prints. I wrote it off because both Art Nouveau ladies and the Gibson girls were average to skinny, still showing a bit of variety, just shying from overly plump ladies. Still, I hadn't noticed how utterly tue it was until Christie [coworker] started her study.

She found other studies that pointed out how completely different the views of beauty tied to weight used to be. In some of her sources, they attributed the previous attraction to overweight or "plump" ladies to the excess that a wealthy and powerful lifestyle granted over middle and lower class ladies. Another source pointed to the fact that women with "a bit of padding" where thought to be more likely to bear a larger number of healthy children and have less issues during childbirth with their "birthing hips."

Now, on the one hand, I'm really glad beauty is no longer judged by the quality of a female as a broodmare, essentially, or a tie to the upper class, but I'm not certain our current trend of overemphasis on the incredibly skinny is too healthy of a predisposition either. =/

It's a real puzzle.

Since she's already basically proven a predisposition of children to select an overly tiny female, I'm still trying to figure out a way for her to throw the data. I'm not saying I want her to cheat the experiment. Just, I'm wondering if there's another factor which could possibly influence the study, because it's been so overwhelming with children selecting the overly skinny and unhealthy proportioned image over the skinny-yet-healthy girl. It's been quite a telling experiment.

By and by- if anyone has any suggestions for Christie, I'll send 'em along! N

"So long and thanks for all the fish."

Posted: 23rd Apr 2007
Agree with Ucof about the poll too

Why are we obsessed with our physical selves? We will all change and (hopefully) get old and wrinkly and saggy and die anyway.

I hate all this "preserving youth" and dieting til you die.

I agree with Niki, love what you've got.

Everyone should just be themselves, love themselves and stop comparing themselves to others. We're all different and we're all beautiful in our unique ways.


Food is yummy and why deny ourselves the pleasure of tucking in?

Hoppers are angels who lift us to our feet when our wings have trouble remembering how to fly.

Posted: 23rd Apr 2007
Birgit: That's exactly the kind of stuff I was thinking (corsets, belladonna eye drops etc) but wasn't sure how to phrase my thoughts properly (it's been a long day).

The difference between a 'natural' size zero and an 'unnatural' one? Yes it is impossible to distinguish for definite, but I was thinking in terms of Body Mass Index... a size zero is more likely to be a 'natural' size zero if the person is 5'2 tall or shorter. Their weight would not be detrimental to their health. When I see tall people who are size zero I usually assume there is some amount of dieting or food restriction involved.

But maybe this is wrong...

Kathian, that's kind of what I meant to say when I mentioned about different communities having different ideas of beauty, because of the association between being big/small with other positive/negative attributes, such as class.

Idolized by Aurinoko

Take me disappearing through the smoke rings of my mind....

Bob Dylan

Posted: 23rd Apr 2007
Just to put things in perspective, another program pointed out that the dimensions of a woman who is size 0 are the same of that of a 7-year old. It isn't possible for the majority of adult women to attain those dimensions unless you are physically very small indeed.

Eat good food, run around a bit, and you will be your optimum size, which will be both healthy and beautiful. If you don't like the size that your clothes labels say (which is pretty much arbitrary anyway), then cut them out and replace them with ones that say "size 0".

I encounrage my niece to read magazines like Zest and Good Health, which show models with a bit of body fat and good muscle tone, hopfully she's getting indoctrinated into *that* being what a woman should be, not some stick in an overpriced frock.

There is a slight possibility that I am not actually right all of the time.

Posted: 23rd Apr 2007
Size 0 is generally ridiculous and unobtainable. Let's put this into perspective, Kate Moss is a size 10 (a small waisted size 10, her waist measurement is more like an 8, but nonetheless). This is quite usual for a model, size 10 is the traditional sample size (although it is apparent that some fashion houses have reduced this), models look thin because they are tall, a 5'10" size 10 is very different from a 5'2" size 10. Marylin Monroe, possibly *the* greatest female sex symbol of all time, was a size 14-16.
Women who are naturally tiny look very different to those who starve themselves to get there. Women who are naturally voluptuous look very different to women who are simply overweight.
The only people who *like* the waiflike look are fashionistas who are more art than sanity, and unhappy women searching for some kind of unobtainable ideal to make them happy. Bones are meant for the inside, cleavage is far prettier than ribcage.

I can almost guarantee that simply changing the way you look won't make you happier, or better liked. If you are unhappy with yourself, give yourself some credit and consider that it may be for a more important reason than the size of your jeans. Sure, I do know women who have lost weight and gained a new perspective on life (I was one of them) but only because an inner disquiet had led to them gaining weight to start with, and only if the weight loss was accompanied by a resolution to whatever was troubling them initially.

I've suffered eating disorders at both ends of the spectrum, and I eventually learned that it is important to love your body, no matter what shape it is, and then you can make the decisions necessary to look after it properly, and become a healthy weight.

Posted: 23rd Apr 2007
there is so much i want to rant but it would mainly be reiterating the points already well made by others.

I will say that i hate the whole issue, its stupid. People should be the weight they are naturally, your weight is more determined by your genes than by your diet and alsong as it isnt affecting your health or general ability to do the things you want to do it doesnt matter what size you are.

Unfortunately these days it is seen that being anything more than the size of an anorexic stick insect (but with plenty of cleavage) is necessary to be successful in life. I remember about 10 years ago i read a newspaper article about a girl whose mum was buying her breast implants for her birthday (18th i think) because the girl felt she would not succeed unless she had a larger chest. When i heard about this i thought maybe she had such a severely small chest it was going to have medical implications or she was being so badly ridiculed it was causing mental harm, but no, they were a C cup, yet she was willing, and her mum was willing for her to have dangerous surgery on the spurious grounds of fashion and what is needed to succeed! i know that isnt to do with weight but i think the same (or similar) principles underlie both - people having a false idea of what matters.

I know it makes no difference what size i am to anyone or anything that matters to me and while i would like to lose some of my stomach flab to feel healthier i have no delusions that it is going to make me more popular, get me more boyfriends or make a scrap of difference to my academic, social or professional life! Yeah, someone might talk to me if i were thin who wouldnt talk to me if i were the size i am now (which is 16, and im 5'7" so thats not out of proportion, and because i am heavy for my size (14 stone, according to the nurse and my kickboxing instructor my height and size should weigh about 12.5 stone) it is more muscle based than flab (kickboxing instructor could certainly vouch for the fact that i have a strong kick!)) or if i were thinner maybe i would get chatted up more in clubs, or one day someone would employ me because they liked the look of my tiny waist but i dont want anyhting to do with such fake people i consider them to be utterly pathetic.

I think that body image is also a part of the much wider beauty idea - women always being perfectly made up, with a nice manicure, stylish haircut and designer clothes which are all being taken too far - its one thing to want to look nice for a special occaision but to not even go to the corner shop for milk if you havent got you inches thick layer of make up is just stupid, but there are people like that.

I dont know what is making society this way, i had barbies when i was a kid (actually, they are still in a box on top my wardrobe) and liked fairytales with skinny princesses and it didnt make me a size zero wannabe!

one thing could well be role modelling, perhaps something to consider in that study - what sort of size are the people - females especially - that are significant in those kids' lives? Mums, aunts, siblings, favourite teachers or actors or whatever, if they are all skinny it is quite possible children prefer the skinny picture because they look like their favourite people. It could also be worth trying to give the kids examples of people who are naturally slim and those who have made themselves unnarturally slim to see if they can tell the difference because they do look different - my dad and my sister were once the same size, but my dad was naturally that size and my sister was dieting a lot and she looked ill whereas my dad looked like a guy who just didnt carry fat!

Anyway, now im rambling and lost the plot so i'll stop.

One final thing - im happy enough in my size to wear a bikini on the beach, stomach flab happily tanning and getting sand stuck under the peircing and yet there are girls there ten years younger than me and several sizes smaller (and probably a size or so smaller than they should be) who have to hide under sarongs and such and i dont know whether i want to feel sorry for them or slap them and tell them to get over themselves! Same with antiwrinkle stuff - my mum has never used any such product and although she turns 60 this year she looks younger than some of those 40 ish year olds you see advertising the stuff!

grr, to all of it!

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars

"To alcohol, the cause of - and solution to - all of lifes problems!"

Posted: 24th Apr 2007
As a society, I believe that we are too focused on size and being skinny. What we should be focusing on is being healthy. Not enough weight can be just as dangerous as too much weight.

We have been indoctrinated all of our lives that “thin is in.” There was a time that being thin meant one of two things, you were sick or you were poor and couldn’t afford to get food. Who knows what the opinion is going to be one hundred years from now.

Growing old is mandatory; growing up is NOT.
Proud member of the HoP DPS.
Sanity is a highly overrated state of mind.
I'm normal ... it's everyone else that's crazy.

Gidg

Posted: 24th Apr 2007
Bloke opinion here so please don't abuse me but i have no objection to skinny chicks so long as they arn't skin and bone. There is a tipping point at which a skinny chick becomes a walking skeleton and that just don't float my boat.

At the end of the day i don't want my missus to be able to put on my trousers and find that they fit but at the same time i don't want to feel as if i could snap her like a twig.

You just need to find a happy medium that you yourself are comfortable with and if your BF/Hubby is happy with it all the better.

May my balls of fire set your balls on fire

Posted: 24th Apr 2007

 Written by: various

"scrawny" "gaunt" "boney" "heroin waif" "'the holocaust' look" "Bones are meant for the inside" "walking skeleton"

the pressures people face associated with body image are lame



however i don't see how rubbishing thinner people based on their appearance is at all helpful in reducing those pressures



this discussion contained all those above terms, and most size zero debates i've seen contain far more vicious terms aimed at people with the "wrong" look. it all strikes me as very sad and counter-productive.



isn't the best way to counter the "size zero" issue: to pay absolutely no attention to what people look like?

"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

Posted: 24th Apr 2007
I see your point Simian..
it's also increasing in men these days too.. so I think paying no attention to it won't solve anything either - I've always found men to be less surceptable to body image and pressure from the media..

I much prefure men with a bit of meat on them.. *hubba*

I honour you as an aspect of myself..

You are never to old to storm a bouncey castle..

Posted: 24th Apr 2007


So you're saying the correct way to deal with the issue is to continue making bitchy comments when people are too skinny?

All that does is highlight the underlying jealousy and hypocrisy that fuels the vehemence of the size zero debate.

"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

Posted: 24th Apr 2007
I didn't think I was 'bitching' - but if you see it that I was then I'm sorry.. I thought we were having a discussion about the subject..

I don't think that there is a 'correct' way to deal with this subject or obesity.. there is no 'correct' way to deal with anything as everyone in life is different and responds to different stimuli in different ways... i'm not jealous of someone that can fit into childerns clothes, I find it quite disturbing to be honest..

damned if you do, and damned if you don't.

I honour you as an aspect of myself..

You are never to old to storm a bouncey castle..

Posted: 24th Apr 2007
Sorry miss Niki, that certainly wasn't meant as a dig at you personally.



But your post bothered me. It started saying you saw my point, but then ended by making a generalised comment about what body image you find attractive, which is surely the root cause of the whole problem.



and again in your last post, you say you find thin people "quite disturbing"! I fit into childrens clothes. Do you find me disturbing? Even if you do, it's pretty unkind to actually say so. Why is it ok for you to say that, whereas you'd probably not feel ok to say "fatties make me feel ill"?



I'm really NOT trying to have a go at you or anything, and know that you mean no malice by what you say. But i see these comments, and others of a far more extreme nature, all the time in the current media climate, and they make me very angry.
EDITED_BY: simian (1177411005)

"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

Posted: 24th Apr 2007
Laziness involves not watching what you eat.

True laziness involves not being bothered to get food in the first place.

Posted: 24th Apr 2007
It's amazing how times change. As far back as the Renaissance Era to as recent as the 60s, it was the norm for a curvy woman to be the pinnicle of female beauty. Even as far back as Ancient Greece, men built like Greek Gods was THE look for a man.

The 'waif' look can just as much be an 'ideal' for men as for women with the so-called 'heroin-chic' aesthetic - as aptly demonstrated with the popularity of bands or artists like The Libertines/Pete Doherty (and in the indie days of yore - Suede).

As much as men would like to make out they are okay with their bodies, you only have to look at the amount of magazines like 'Men's Fitness' and Calvin Klein ads to know that body dismorphia is not an exclusively female idiosyncrisy...

There will ALWAYS be an 'accepted' idea of what is beautiful and an aesthetic that fashion companies will favour in their marketing campaigns and not every will fit that. The only thing people can do is to treat other people with respect on an individual basis and be happy and confident with their own appearance.

Only show concern when someone you know displays an almost manic obsession with their appearance

"I used to want to change the world, now I just wanna leave the room with a little dignity..." - Lotus Weinstock

Posted: 24th Apr 2007
hokay
I was expressing my personal opinion as to what I find attractive, I don't find super skinny men very alluring. I'm sure that there are guys out there that don't find super skiny women alluring. The whole 'thinsperation' thing were girls think that they are more attractive the more bones they show, personally I cannot understand it.. and I'm sure other people don't understand either..

Sim - my comment was related to the television programm the other night - when a 30 odd year old woman actually fitted into a pair of jeans that were for a 7 year old!

Hey - if you fit into kiddies clothes, then fair enough - less VAT to pay however I'm sure you are on the 13-17 year old range and not the pre teen as I was intimating earlier?

PS - my last boyfreind got up to 18 stone.. I guess I'm not very good at personally dealing with the extremes of body size - too skinny, too fat.. it's not attractive in my eyes..

:hugs:

anyway - I'm sorry if my comments got you riled.. *shakes hand* wan't meant to at all

I honour you as an aspect of myself..

You are never to old to storm a bouncey castle..

Posted: 24th Apr 2007
That "seven year old" statistic was just utter rubbish though. How many 5'7" seven year olds have you met?

That program was so thoroughly stupid and pointless that it made me want to rip out my brain and throw it at the screen in protest.

"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

Posted: 24th Apr 2007
I can see that the discussion on this subject is obviuously getting you kinda het up.. so I think that I will bow out to stop you ripping your brain out

but I will say that I've never met a 5' 7" seven year old, but I have met a size double zero woman wearing 7 year old's jeans as crop jeans..

I honour you as an aspect of myself..

You are never to old to storm a bouncey castle..

Posted: 24th Apr 2007
Here is a picture taken of simian whilst he was watching the aformentioned program:


Non-Https Image Link

Posted: 24th Apr 2007
I find it odd that people can generalise about what they find attractive.
For me, its about the person inside the body that'll either attract me or not.

I'd rather have Jack Black than Johnny Depp any day.

Inner beauty is where it's at.

Hoppers are angels who lift us to our feet when our wings have trouble remembering how to fly.

Posted: 24th Apr 2007
i really disagree with women dieting themselves to death to become a size zero, you are who you are and should be happy with that. if all these fashion houses used a variety of different shaped models to reflect the fact that everyone was different then we wouldnt be having the problems we have today. it is up to the media to stop splashing these super skinny girls all over the pages of their publications and act a bit more responsibly as they know that young girls will be comparing themselves to what they see...if the media refused to print the images of these girls then the fashion houses would be forced to use bigger models other wise they would loose all the free publicity they get.

i have never dieted to become skinner...on the conterary, i am always trying to put weight on (lucky you i can here alot of you thinking) but if i dont eat the right foods for a couple of days the weight just drops off and like simian i can fit into childrens clothes. however, i have seen lots of my friends go on silly diets just to fit into 'that dress' or because they feel thats what men find attactive, but if you ask a lot of men you would probably find they would prefer to cuddle up to someone with a bit of meat on their bones rather than a boney stick insect.

"I dont want no fatty bumbum, i want a lean mean shagging machine" anon

"I'm sweet and wholesome with a little bit of filth thrown in"

What would you do if you knew you could not fail?